#meta 2018-06-29

2018-06-29 UTC
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Loqi [superfeedr] "JS Oxford Indieweb presentation – Polytechnic" by Dan Q on 2018-06-28 https://danq.me/2018/06/28/js-oxford-indieweb-presentation-polytechnic/
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aaronpk https://twitter.com/Kaneryyy/status/1012038043816153090
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@Kaneryyy 2009: "As Twitter grows, it will increasingly become a place where companies build brands, do research, send information to customers, conduct e-commerce and create communities for their users." - Time 2018: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dgt7KITUwAA2kGq.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/1012038043816153090)
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[tantek] Aaronpk you still going to GK?
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aaronpk sounded like you all already went so I assumed you wouldn't be back
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GWG Ground Kontrol? The arcade?
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aaronpk also i'm pretty wiped and considering just going to bed early tonight. gotta save up some energy for open source bridge tomorrow!
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Loqi [superfeedr] "In honor of all the work @martymcguire @dougbeal and @anomalily did in relaunching webrings at #IndieWebSummit..." by Greg McVerry on 2018-06-29 https://jgregorymcverry.com/3901-2/
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[tantek] Good call aaronpk
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Here is the Theory of Change #IndieWeb Also on:Twitter" by Greg McVerry on 2018-06-29 https://jgregorymcverry.com/3904-2/
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gregorlove.com edited /2018/Leaders (+324) "/* Task List */ tried to move php-mf2, "Organization members cannot transfer repositories"" (view diff)
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aaronpk wat haha
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aaronpk Github permissions are so confusing
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gRegorLove Yeah, weird message
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gregorlove.com edited /2018/Leaders (+190) "/* Task List */ renamed irc-people" (view diff)
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sknebel who is Kaja?
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Loqi https://indieweb.org/User:Kaja.sknebel.net
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Zegnat Re #indieweb-chat, [wiobyrne]: I think the how-to-be-IndieWeb was something indiewebify.me tries to address. If you want to come in and itterate on some of the text there that would be awesome!
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jgmac1106 @aaronpk, want to circle back to it after the embers from the last bonfire cool, but maybe a remote/hybrid “community development” meeting or a pre-con track would be helpful at each IWCs, though would compact schedule if leaders meeting was just before….. turn relaxing recharging and super productive 1/2 day into a full day...diminishing returns are real….. Maybe a remote precon ahead of IWC Berlin and then you cap
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jgmac1106 Leaders meeting with one hour town hall where precon attendees allowed to join for an open discussion where those at “Leaders” session listen
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jgmac1106 [wiobyrne] this could easily be a microcast we do. Put our feet to the fire on the book and do microcast each week. I mean this is really what we are talking about. Open pedagogy around the shared princeples of IndieWeb
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jgmac1106 This is why, even if it is legit, the talk of generations needs to subdued as efforts around diversity and inclusion.
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jgmac1106 Go back and listen to how the word is used throughout the conference. Then come stop by the WordPress room and hang with the people in the WordPress/Getting started room who sit in the audience and have to wonder, “Am I gen3, Gen4? Is that me?”
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jgmac1106 Version software, not people. The people do not change quickly the software does.
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jgmac1106 You can have a term for development and use it in open development but it isn’t helpful as a broadcast term used in talks in mixed audiences. The trm generation isn’t being directed directly at software development but as a description of behaviors and biases towards users. It may comes off as elitist and there must be some inverse pyramid of problems that growth brings that have nothing to do with tech and require a tot
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jgmac1106 different school set
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[tantek] Good morning!
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Loqi rise and shine!
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[tantek] Anyone around for OS bridge want to grab breakfast before the conference?
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jgmac1106 Onboarding and developing growth in practices that reflect Principles will never be algorithimically solveable
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jgmac1106 I fogot you folks were double dipping, enjoy the final oss bridge
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jgmac1106 and sorry for not be time cognizant, but hope you know where the mute notification
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Loqi [superfeedr] "You know I am willing to talk to people anytime anywhere about their #IndieWeb WordPress experience as..." by Greg McVerry on 2018-06-29 https://jgregorymcverry.com/3907-2/
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Loqi [superfeedr] "#485" by Jack Jamieson on 2018-06-29 https://jackjamieson.net/485-2/
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Loqi [superfeedr] "@audreywatters you should cover the #IndieWeb summit https://indieweb.org/2018/Schedule in next weeks..." by Greg McVerry on 2018-06-29 https://jgregorymcverry.com/3917-2/
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Serious about joining the IndieWeb WordPress webring: https://www.wordpressindiewebring.jgregorymcverry.com/...." by Greg McVerry on 2018-06-29 https://jgregorymcverry.com/3913-2/
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gRegorLove Maybe we should iterate /wikifying to make it more explicit that you don't have to use HTML on your user page / give some basic mediawiki syntax tips "Here's how to make a list" and so on
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jgmac1106 I really like the first hald but be better to link to an incremental wikifying page and create making an account. The making account needs to go from indieauth>wiki page>chat-names>sprite and thats it
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jgmac1106 dont call it wikifying either that is first problem. You are making an account, joining the wiki, connecting yoru profile to the chatbot
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gRegorLove User pages aren't accounts
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jgmac1106 okay you are joining through indieauth, adding your profile, connecting profile to chat bot, adding a picture to mentions on the wiki
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jgmac1106 I had to help three different people it is hard, one wanted to use github but hide the link because nothing on her profile and that could hurt image, one could use github but had static homepage and needed to add rel=me links, and the third was starting from scratch on a wordpress install
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jgmac1106 so don’t know best way to approach it, might be one of those need a community helping hand
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[tantek] Right, you’re not making an account, you’re signing in with your existing identity, which gives you write access
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[tantek] Greg did you check the existing Getting Started pages?
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[tantek] Pretty sure one of them covers those cases
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sknebel and IMHO the entire "add yourself to the wiki" thing is really only interesting to some. We set up tons of people that only ever log into the wiki to test if it works
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sknebel so sure, document it better if it isn't, but it's not part of "Getting Started"
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jgmac1106 [tantek] yes and we added the wikify link
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aaronpk +1 on not calling it wikify but yeah it's not making a new account
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jgmac1106 I am realizing it is the sprite page that needs to be up highe on wikifyme
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gRegorLove sprite page?
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aaronpk the thing that makes a bigger difference is adding yourself to the chat-names list
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jgmac1106 [sknebel] the directions to make my little picture instead of (jgreogrymcverry.com) on /chat-names
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gRegorLove Yeah, that's a cooler UX "Cool, now my photo is in the chat logs!"
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gRegorLove Ah, gotcha
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jgmac1106 while you aren’t making an account and making an account doesn’t create a page to the people I helped they were making an account, adding their profile, making it so Loqi worked, fixing their picture
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jgmac1106 Somebody sent me the page so I know it exists
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gRegorLove Template:sparkline, specifically https://indieweb.org/Template:sparkline#How_to_make_a_small_h-card_template
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gRegorLove But that's not what /chat-names uses, that's for adding yourself / signing wiki notes
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Loqi [superfeedr] "There are also some great WordPress framework builders made by @LinkedIn and the classes are free all..." by Greg McVerry on 2018-06-29 https://jgregorymcverry.com/3921-2/
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aaronpk haha so many things
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aaronpk wasn't this a topic of last year's discussions?
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jgmac1106 and [snkebel] while people may not want to join the wikii difficult onboarding is an exculsionary practice
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jgmac1106 [aaronpk] I will put it on the agenda for next year as well. 😛
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sknebel jgmac1106: didn't I explicitly "make it easier"? I just don't believe it's very important to direct people to do it
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Zegnat ^^^ That’s jgmac1106 volunteering to clear up the Leaders page right? We all saw it? gRegorLove? :P
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jgmac1106 ha ha
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sknebel should obviously be findable, but if someone asks me "what's next" it's almost never going to be the answer
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jgmac1106 Want o join our chat? that is easy. anyone can do that from the Web, Slack, or IRC. Want to join the wiki or use the full features of our chatbots?:make sure[ indieauth] works on your blog, sign into the wiki, create a user page, add yourself to a chat name. Want a picture? Make a sparkline
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jgmac1106 Signing on to the main community portal shouldn’t require an actual session for a new user at the summit IMO
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gRegorLove jgmac1106++ for cleaning up /Leaders! ;)
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Loqi jgmac1106 has 6 karma in this channel (25 overall)
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jgmac1106 what…you can’t give proactive Karma
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gRegorLove I just did.
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jgmac1106 do I lose it with juice if I don’t finsih in time?
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gRegorLove Positive pre-enforcement
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aaronpk there are no karma rules
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gRegorLove The first rule of karma club...
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sknebel hm....
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jgmac1106 jgmac1106--
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Loqi jgmac1106: You can't karma yourself!
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jgmac1106 yes there are clearly rules
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gRegorLove lol
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sknebel 3 days until jgmac--
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Loqi I added a countdown scheduled for 2018-07-02 6:46pm CEST (#6324)
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sknebel that probably doesn't work, right?
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Zegnat Hahaha
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aaronpk oh dear
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Loqi hehe
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sknebel !cancel #6324
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Loqi Okay, I cancelled it!
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gRegorLove I think we attempted it before. I forget
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Zegnat I think cweiske has tested the whole Loqi doing Loqi commands pretty extensively
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Zegnat You don’t need to have anything on your userpage to add yourself to /chat-names do you?
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sknebel 1 minute until Loqi++
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Loqi I added a countdown scheduled for 2018-06-29 6:48pm CEST (#6325)
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gRegorLove jgmac1106, I think you hit on a good point particularly with WordPress, getting set up with rel=me might be a bit confusing for some.
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Zegnat So adding your photo to the chatlogs shouldn’t require any actual wiki work other than adding your name?
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jgmac1106 did a micro.blog too but Manton will work on it
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jgmac1106 it was interesting conversation about having to have to add a GitHub profile but when you think the lack of activity makes you look bad professionally
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gRegorLove But agreed with sknebel, I don't think pushing to set up a user page *has* to be a high priority. Adding to /chat-names is a bit easier first step and cooler result for the new person
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jgmac1106 used <link> for that use case
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jgmac1106 okay cool
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Loqi Loqi++
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gRegorLove Zegnat, nope, no user page required
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Zegnat That’s what I thought, thanks for confirming gRegorLove
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gRegorLove That will redlink you on chat names, like some are currently.
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Zegnat That should be fine, since the actual chat logs link to your domain and not wiki user page
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jgmac1106 okay i got to go, said I was going to be radio silent, and now I am gonna go edit a chat page and have to go redo the leaders page with a ton of gifs, greyscale, and infographics
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Zegnat jgmac1106, micro.blog has gotten IndieAuth support natively now judging from the demo manton did. So you don’t even need to add rel="me" anymore to login to the wiki with a micro.blog website :D
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Zegnat Hahaha
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gRegorLove I took a stab last night at making a modern {{chat names}} template (vs {{irc names}}) that would substitute the User: page link automatically, but it appears that's only possible via additional MW plugins.
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gRegorLove (I was also trying to add explicit param names so it's not 1=, 2=, etc.
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gRegorLove )
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sknebel interesting to see all that framed as "join the main community portal", because I didn't perceive it that way. all of that is an optional extra, and I'd only seldom notice if someone hasn't done any of it
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Zegnat Same, but we do not use the web logs a lot as we have our own IRC logs, of course
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sknebel does it make any difference except the avatar in the weblogs?
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Zegnat If you are more a web user you may see the bold names with photos more often. And I think Loqi uses the /chat-names page to find avatars to show on Slack too?
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sknebel ok, and it links people it knows in chat
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aaronpk just tested signing in to the wiki with my micro.blog domain and it's great now
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aaronpk no more rel=me fiddling
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gRegorLove woo!
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[tantek] Great keynote by @christi3k @osbridge. History summary etc.
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[tantek] Of particular interest to Tuesday’s IndieWeb nonprofit discussion, the challenges that come with having an official non-profit, stress of paperwork etc
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gregorlove.com edited /2018/Intros (+33) "video link, time, chat logs" (view diff)
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GWG tantek, we want better organization but we don't want to deal with certain taxing functions. There must be a solution to that.
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GWG No idea what that is, but..
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gregorlove.com edited /2018/state-of-indieweb (+88) "dfn" (view diff)
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dgold could incorporate as a charity in the EU
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dgold private company, limited by nominal guarantee
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dgold (if only there were someone in the channel who does that for a living)
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aaronpk like we discussed, that doesn't actually solve much for us
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GWG dgold, the issue isn't that
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GWG Better organization doesn't necessarily mean a formal organization
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dgold is there a log?
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Too Long; Didn’t Read #156" by wiobyrne on 2018-06-29 https://wiobyrne.com/tldr-156/
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GWG I need to watch the video
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aaronpk a bunch of notes in https://indieweb.org/2018/nonprofit
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Too Long; Didn’t Read #156" by W. Ian O'Byrne on 2018-06-29 https://medium.com/@wiobyrne/too-long-didnt-read-156-6860adf4833d?source=rss-266c9142d478------2
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dgold okay - I'm on that, but don't see much in the way of explicit issues?
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vanderven.se martijn edited /2018/nonprofit (+14) "Add video link" (view diff)
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Zegnat Refresh the page, you will get YouTube video link for the session
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aaronpk hm did we not capture that in the notes?
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aaronpk darn, all j12t's brainstorming didn't make it in
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aaronpk oh nvm they're there. that should get filled out a bit
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Zegnat I also still need to listen to the session. Now I do not know what was discussed re “governance”, so the call to action makes little sense
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dgold ditto
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aaronpk if anyone listens to the video feel free to keep adding notes to the wiki session page
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dgold nor are the "overheads" detailed
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aaronpk this was actually supposed to be a leaders summit session but we ran out of time
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gregorlove.com edited /2018/what-is-the-indieweb (+102) "dfn" (view diff)
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dgold :) Next Steps: "Figure out what benefits from money"
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Zegnat Next Leaders session in connection to a Germany event, I say. Lets not wait another year.
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gRegorLove +1
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aaronpk +1
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Zegnat Looks like gRegorLove is taking over wiki gardening duties for a bit again. I’ll go focus on dinner. Have a good one all!
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gRegorLove I'm getting in dfns that are missing, then back to some work-work
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gRegorLove Looks like that's done actually.
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gRegorLove A couple keynotes on /2018/Schedule could use stubs with dfn and link to video
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dgold the sessions I'm most interested in are stubs
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gRegorLove Which, dgold? If they were in Sunshine, that was outside so there may not have been (m)any notes, unfortunately.
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Zegnat And I haven’t added video links to all the separate session pages yet. But for everything that had video, the links in the session grid should all work. (If not, ping me and I’ll fix them after dinner.)
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[tantek] Aaronpk is right about the questions. What problems is that particular “solution” solving?
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dgold gRegorLove: Micropub Queries, Where we are, IndieAuth and Micropub
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[tantek] There’s often non-sequitor reasoning in these things.
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[tantek] Look there’s this problem A!
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[tantek] So therefore we must do solution B!
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[tantek] (Without any path of logical reasoning or explanation how B solves A)
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dgold [tantek] -- issues of longevity are solved by establishing a framework that provides longevity
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gRegorLove dgold: Yeah, I don't think IndieAuth and Micropub took etherpad notes unfortunately. aaronpk, do you know if there was one?
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[tantek] No, by establishing culture that provides longevity, without the annual time and $ taxes that any formal (legal) framework requires
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Though @film_girl I challenge you to get the entire @RocketFm crew on the IndieWeb ring https://jgregorymcverry.com..." by Greg McVerry on 2018-06-29 https://jgregorymcverry.com/3924-2/
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[tantek] More examples of such frameworks causing the people involved / responsible to spend most of their time with such overhead than with actually getting things done
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aaronpk apparently not captured in the notes, but everyone in the session agreed that any sort of formal organization isn't appropriate for the "IndieWeb", but that instead the better solution is to form adjacent organizations that support the same goals
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[tantek] And in perpetuating the formality (foundation, nonprofit etc) rather than the substance
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[tantek] Eg look at how OID foundation self-persists but completely abandoned the original OpenID goals
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[tantek] Right aaronpk. I’d love to see a 1000 such independent formal efforts whether startups or nonprofits or co-ops form
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aaronpk these osbridge topics are so different than they were a few years ago! so interesting
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gRegorLove Are they streaming any?
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aaronpk so far this is just unconference scheduling
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aaronpk I don't think they have any video equipment here
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dgold [tantek]: but you establish a foundation to support the efforts - libraries, services, conferences - that ensures longevity
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dgold the exemplar being the Open Society Foundation(s)
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dgold or the Socialist International
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Spending a Morning on the Indie Web /by @ton_zylstra" by Heinz Wittenbrink on 2018-06-29 https://medium.com/@heinz/spending-a-morning-on-the-indie-web-by-ton-zylstra-9cf14015b410?source=rss-313751ce339f------2
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aaronpk individual keynote videos will be available shortly!
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jgmac1106_ my preference is no or the smallest organization possible, the introducing of structure leads to the reinforcement of needing more structure as [tantek] notes, its a weird human flaw, I trace it back to our rodent ancestors pooping everywhere they eat
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jgmac1106_ if it has to be something a small co-op is preferable to non-proft
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jgmac1106_ btw posted plkanning article for possible NYC-IWC [gwg] and I will pull off. [Tantek] let me know if you think New Haven is an acceptable fall back, it ain’t the city but is doable on the time frame
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dgold sigh
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dgold best being the enemy of workable
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aaronpk who said anything about best?
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dgold a Foundation provides incentive to developers, coordinates conferences, establishes baselines
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aaronpk anyone should feel free to start a foundation to support those goals and even run indiewebcamp events
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aaronpk but tying the term and concept of the IndieWeb to any particular organization has more drawbacks than advantages long term
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dgold no - that I agree with
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dgold but a foundation can support and nurture the indieweb
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Each semester I end a class with a video I call, “Interview With Your Blog.” It is awesome to know I..." by Greg McVerry on 2018-06-29 https://jgregorymcverry.com/3928-2/
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[tantek] For anyone who wants to start a foundation thinking it will solve problem X for the IndieWeb, first try solving X without a foundation to better understand what X needs
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[tantek] Otherwise such reasoning is more theory than useful
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[tantek] IndieWeb is a very different “open” community than any OSS project, or standards effort
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[tantek] At a minimum try running an IWC yourself - without doing that and understanding firsthand what is necessary for a minimum viable event, you won’t come up with good answers for what a foundation or any formal org could actually help with vs getting in the way of
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[tantek] Portland folks: now at Alder food carts
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[tantek] In case anyone is around getting lunch
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dgold [tantek]: I agree it is different to OSS/Standards
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dgold but it isn't that different from (e.g.) democracy or liberal society orgs
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[jgmac1106] [dgold] and here is where you get to keep to the principles as clearly focused on "is this IndieWeb" as possible. I believe IndieWeb should work from Smith to Marx. It has survived for 8 years and microformats 13, without stagnating, rare in OSS. Key difference.
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aaronpk Flights to Berlin just dropped! Looks like I might book that flight now!
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GWG aaronpk, if you can talk pfefferle into showing up for an IWC I would go all the way to Germany
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GWG Otherwise I am still on the fence about European IWCs due the length of journey
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aaronparecki.com edited /2018/Schedule (-32) "replace with individual video links" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com created /2018/micro-dot-blog (+108) "stub" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com created /2018/indieweb-readers (+109) "stub" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /2018/Schedule (+228) "/* Tuesday */ replace more video links" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /2018/what-is-the-indieweb (+105) "add video" (view diff)
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