#meta 2019-02-05

2019-02-05 UTC
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[jgmac1106] hoping over time people choose to remote together, maybe an HWC group or even two people, equity of remote with benefit of f2f
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@jgmac1106 ↩️ @Jilchrest Added your @ctmirror editorial to the criticism section of our facebook page: https://indieweb.org/Facebook#Criticism (https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/s/41lA1) (twitter.com/_/status/1092574667221725189)
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[jgmac1106] you know there is a place where credibility could be boosted by a little engineering, if a news source over x years old gains steam on a network or in a reader Could give cue, "Before you share this please be aware this source is two years old"
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[tantek] [jgmac1106] would you like your browser to give you a little yellow drop-down warning like that?
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[tantek] if it could recognize the page/article was that old
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[tantek] [aaronpk] https://2019.indieweb.org/austin is not showing any actual purchased ticket RSVPs - is that section/embed also commented out? or has no one actually registered for a $5 ticket?
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Loqi IndieWebCamp Austin
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jgmac1106 just thinking about the easy wins with metadata and #credweb and me being a binehead and not reading source currency before sharing
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jgmac1106 bonehead*
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[tantek] you're not being a binehead - it's too easy to fall for that
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[tantek] what is credweb
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "credweb" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "credweb is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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aaronpk Haven't synced the Tito tickets yet
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@jgmac1106 ↩️ I wouldn'https://jgmac1106homepage.glitch.me/annotationshfeeed.htmlt say interest, you just caught me at a good time as I have been trying to convert RDFa annotations into h-feed https://jgregorymcverry.com/annotationshfeeed.html and been researching stuff like Dublin Core https://indieweb.org/Dublin_core (https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/s/26ATlw) (twitter.com/_/status/1092591220231147520)
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@jgmac1106 Then you are prebuilt for something like fragmentions, just uses an ID property on the HTML entity and a link out of highlighted text, https://indieweb.org/fragmention Congrats on bootstrapping!! Real business and real revenue. Ever want rubrics check me out… https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2019/02/05/then-you-are-prebuilt-for-something-like (twitter.com/_/status/1092592842801856512)
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@jgmac1106 Last year I skipped #ISTE and went to the @IndieWebCamp Summit such a more rewarding experience and no vendors. #edtechchat (https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/s/ShD7R) (twitter.com/_/status/1092595284516003840)
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@jgmac1106 Hey #edtechchat since we are talking conferences we are organizing this free online conference @IndieWebCamp Online: https://indieweb.org/2019/Online If you ever wanted to get started on building a personal site, learning about #IndieWeb EDU, or upping your game… https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2019/02/05/hey-edtechchat-since-we-are-talking-conferences (twitter.com/_/status/1092595808053182464)
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@jgmac1106 ↩️ I use my blog and the commonplace book philosophy: https://indieweb.org/commonplace_book If you can Symballoo you have enough skills to finish sentence "My url is.." (https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/s/TwVmc) (twitter.com/_/status/1092596883665666048)
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@RV3EN5 This is getting more and more common... RT @Dries: Blog post: Pulling the plug on Facebook https://dri.es/pulling-the-plug-on-facebook #openweb #indieweb #posse (twitter.com/_/status/1092598223884206081)
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@jgmac1106 Come to our online conference @IndieWebCamp Online 3/9-3/10 all skills levels welcome, if you wanted your own website or blog, maybe a class site, wanted to learn about #IndieWeb RSVP: https://indieweb.org/2019/Online #edtechchat (https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/s/1sSdjq) (twitter.com/_/status/1092601798819495937)
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@jgmac1106 ↩️ ohh #edtechchat Did I mention it was free? Did I mention @indiewebcamp and @edcamp both the fork of the same barcamp style unconference.? Did I mention its production based? You will leave having hacked on and demoed a project. #e (https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/s/oN6Hw) (twitter.com/_/status/1092602367353257985)
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eddiehinkle aaronpk Yeah, I think having temporary access to the chat channel would be great for people to be able to participate but to have it be ephermal
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@Tetizera ↩️ Acho que vou começar blog usando Netflify + Hugo, aí posso escrever as coisas em Markdown. Mas acho que não há suporte a dados estruturados, que é o objetivo final. Tem um tal de IndieWeb onde é possível encontrar zilhões de padrões de dados estruturados. (twitter.com/_/status/1092633258301575169)
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eddiehinkle jgmac1106 GWG aaronpk tantek So the IndieWebCamp Online, obviously we'll have IndieWeb RSVPs, we probably need an external system like tito... should we be charging the minimum fee like normal IWCs or not?
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GWG I don't think so, only because the cost isn't the same for this.
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eddiehinkle Yeah, that was my thought
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eddiehinkle I know one big thing is getting the registration to more accurately reflect attendance
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eddiehinkle but attendance doesn't REALLY matter because there aren't really any costs as of right now
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eddiehinkle so whether there are 5 or 50 people doesn't impact a whole lot
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aaronpk yeah i'd lean towards not charging
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eddiehinkle Excellent 👍
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aaronpk for an in person event there is an actual capacity and cost per person. the space holds up to a certain amount and we have to decide a number to order food for.
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aaronpk those are the real constraints that end up with either an opportunity cost or financial cost if people don't show up
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aaronpk opportunity cost = someone else could have fit in the room, financial cost = we ordered too much food
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eddiehinkle ahh gotcha
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eddiehinkle that makes sense
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aaronpk behavioral economics is fun :D
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eddiehinkle 😆
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aaronpk turns out $5 was too low, because what ended up happening was people would no-show and then later tell me they didn't mind not coming because they knew their $5 was going to a good cause
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eddiehinkle ohhhhh uh oh lol
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aaronpk which is like, cool, but not the point
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GWG So what is the solution? Raise the price?
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aaronpk price is just one form of cost, but yes, raise the cost
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aaronpk beware, a rabbit hole ➡ https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Bestiary_of_Behavioral_Economics/Commitment_Devices
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@btopro I'll look forward to Drupal ending it's plans to do React on its new admin interface when web components can be created to not support the survelance corp by adding it to core. WC is indieweb and would be a step toward platform relevance. (twitter.com/_/status/1092638976538800129)
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boffosocko.com edited /Nuzzel (+840) "pagelogo; tweak dfn; see also: discovery, newsletter, read" (view diff)
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[Rose] Maybe: $5 if you show up, but you get charged $50 if you have a ticket and don't show?
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[Rose] Though that's evil and depending on formatting easy to misread/oversee
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[Rose] (Not showing = without giving notice at lesat X time period before)
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tantek.com edited /timeline (+130) "/* Similar Resource */ organize a bit, add labels, voyagers example" (view diff)
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[tantek] apparently dietrich led a session on Decentralizing The Web Itself at FOSDEM: https://twitter.com/dietrich/status/1091620174866731008 - video not up yet
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@swentel No #IndieWeb session at @DrupalcampLDN sadly. But I'll do a BOF. Or simply talk to me if you're interested how to setup with Drupal :) There's also a HWC meetup the wednesday before, everyone is welcome there too of course! https://hwclondon.co.uk/meetups/20190227 (twitter.com/_/status/1092734849151127552)
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tantek.com edited /Template:Homebrew_Website_Club (+54) "02-27 for HWC London per https://hwclondon.co.uk/meetups/20190227" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /events/2019-02-06-homebrew-website-club (-28) "- extra heading" (view diff)
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[jgmac1106] Eddie people looking to RSVP so if you get swamped and can't get page up today I can help
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jgregorymcverry.com uploaded /File:muzzledesktopview.png "view of nuzzel desktop https://indieweb.org/File:muzzledesktopview.png"
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jgregorymcverry.com uploaded /File:Nuzzelmobile.png "Nuzzel mobile view https://indieweb.org/File:Nuzzelmobile.png"
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jgregorymcverry.com edited /Nuzzel (+597) "added screenshots and criticism section" (view diff)
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jgmac1106 what is the #social channel in chat? https://chat.indieweb.org/social/2018-03-12#t1520868467837500
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "#social channel in chat" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "#social channel in chat is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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Loqi [rhiaro] @doriantaylor When you say you have 'no clue' how to use it, what's the sticking point? It's just like any other RDF vocabulary. I see the Annotation vocab only links to the AS2 namespace, so maybe you didn't see the examples in the spec yet: https:/...
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sknebel social on the w3c irc server
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@shortstorywoman FREE for Kindle! #shortstory #freestufffriday #Promote #thrill #storyteller #ebooks #KindleBooks #indie #bookworms #Review #TuesdayThoughts #books #selfpublishing #Iloveshortstorys #indieauthor #indieweb #BookBoost #cover #storytime #writerslife #writerscommunity #introducing (twitter.com/_/status/1092775088246702081)
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jgregorymcverry.com edited /Hypothes.is (+1967) "exapneded article" (view diff)
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@jgmac1106 Expanded the @hypothesis article on the #IndieWeb wiki, let me know if I am missing anything. Would like to link to existing tutorials @chrisaldrich @remikalir @judell @dr_dean @dwhaley https://indieweb.org/Hypothes.is (https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/s/1XssUr) (twitter.com/_/status/1092777443885305863)
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jgregorymcverry.com edited /RDF (+588) "/* Criticisms */ added note about lists" (view diff)
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@jgmac1106 ↩️ I was doing it as a joke thinking, ":What does a future cat lady need to build a resume" but if you are serious we could make you a canonical link website as an h-card pointing to all your web properties. An #IndieWeb version of … https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2019/02/05/anomalily-i-was-doing-it-as-a (twitter.com/_/status/1092787631216361477)
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eddiehinkle aaronpk tantek Do we have a single Tito IndieWeb account? or does each organizer just set up Tito underneath themselves?
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aaronpk eddiehinkle: we do have a shared tito account but it's up to the organizer whether they want to use it or use their own
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eddiehinkle Gotcha, I'm happy to have IWC Online just use the standard account. How would I go about doing that?
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aaronpk i can add you to the account
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eddiehinkle 👍 Sounds good, thanks!
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aaronpk invite sent
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aaronparecki.com edited /RDF () "(-909) remove "list" criticism until it can be provided in context of what problem is actually trying to be solved, also because there are plenty of posts that respond to that criticism and we don't need to catalog them all" (view diff)
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eddiehinkle Also, in looking through the 2019 code, I think Tito tickets are commented out on the Austin page. While I'm in here preparing PRs I can uncomment that unless it's intentional
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aaronpk i need to figure out the api key stuff before we can turn it back on
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eddiehinkle ohhhh gotcha 👍
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eddiehinkle I'll leave it be then
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eddiehinkle !tell aaronpk I know you've got a lot going on in NYC. Just sent a PR for IWC Online Event page when you happen to have the time. No rush
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@iwebthings List: indieweb-related resources: https://the.dailywebthing.com/list-indieweb-related-resources/ (twitter.com/_/status/1092822149763645442)
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[schmarty] looks like there's a newcomer running WordPress + all the IndieWeb plugins, yay!
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Loqi 😄
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[schmarty] i believe they might be overusing that IndieNews syndication checkbox.
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[jgmac1106] yeah he is super skilled as well, been around longer than most been alive, just needs to learnn what indienews is for
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[jgmac1106] could be huge asset to WP community
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[jgmac1106] main url if you want to each out and ask him to turn down syndication volume: https://the.dailywebthing.com/
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eddiehinkle.com edited /2019/Online (+152) "/* Schedule */ updates to match official event page" (view diff)
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eddiehinkle.com edited /2019/Online (+61) "/* = How to Sign Up for a Session */ add session link" (view diff)
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eddiehinkle.com edited /2019/Online (-104) "/* How to Propose Sessions */ update session example" (view diff)
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[chrisaldrich] [jgmac1106] Looks like you haven't noticed, but on mobile version of Nuzzel, if you tap the facepile it will show you the full social contexts and commentary of your friends as well as interacting with them.
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eddiehinkle.com created /2019/Online/Guest_Book (+971) "Set up IWC Online 2019 Guest Book" (view diff)
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[tantek] at some point we renamed Guest Book to "Projects" or something like that and it didn't stick, or am I missing something?
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[schmarty] tantek: i think it was the other way around
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[tantek] we specifically wanted to separate it from it's former "guest list" / RSVPs meaning
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[tantek] so it wasn't misinterpreted as such
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[tantek] [schmarty] found it. in /2015 (and earlier) we had /2015/Guest_List
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[schmarty] oh interesting
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[tantek] in /2016 we started using 2016.indieweb.org, and renamed it to "Projects List"
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[tantek] in the link text, however the page was still /2016/Guest_List
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[tantek] same in /2017
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[tantek] "Projects List" links to a page with "Guest_List" in the name
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[tantek] a-ha, /2018 renamed both linktext and page URL name to Guest Book
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eddiehinkle Yeah, I'm not sure. I copied what Baltimore 2018 did
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eddiehinkle Which was a Guest Book
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[tantek] so that's what happened
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[tantek] the intent was always just switching it to an optional "Projects List"
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[tantek] not to have it revert to some kind of half and half "Guest Book"
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eddiehinkle So did summit 2018 somehow make a mistake?
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eddiehinkle and we've all been copying the mistake?
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[tantek] yes
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eddiehinkle So everything referring to Guest Book should be "Projects List"? Just so I make the IWC Online changes correctly
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[tantek] my mistake: https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?title=2018&type=revision&diff=45861&oldid=45360 🙈
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eddiehinkle lol!!
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[tantek] though there may have been some discussion somewhere else about "Projects List" vs "Guest Book"
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[schmarty] haha, but then was it actually a mistake or was it a conscious choise?
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[tantek] [schmarty] yes
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[schmarty] *choice. ugh what is up with my typing.
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[schmarty] it was copied from 2018/Baltimore https://chat.indieweb.org/meta/2018-02-16#t1518823313079400
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Loqi [tantek.com] created /2018/Guest_Book (+1814) "copy paste from IWC Bmore 2018"
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eddiehinkle 👀
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boffosocko.com edited /silo-quits (+382) "/* Silo quitters 2019 */ typo; Dries Buytaert quits Facebook" (view diff)
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[schmarty] digging into /2018/Baltimore history now. at one point it linked to a Projects List page.
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[tantek] 🤔
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[schmarty] https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?title=2018/Baltimore&diff=prev&oldid=43043
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[schmarty] aaronpk made the change. looks like that was while we were trying to DRY up the various IWC pages in Austin.
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[tantek] https://chat.indieweb.org/meta/2017-12-11#t1512971490480900
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Loqi [aaronparecki.com] created /2018/Baltimore/Guest_Book (+1076) "create stub guest book page"
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[tantek] for chat context
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[schmarty] was just looking for that. thanks!
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[tantek] Hmm, well I can't find any reasoning for "Guest Book" over "Projects List"
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[schmarty] it must have been discussed in person.
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eddiehinkle Looks like we can't talk in person anymore
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eddiehinkle 😆
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eddiehinkle #LogicalConclusion
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[tantek] https://chat.indieweb.org/meta/2017-12-11#t1512960689406800
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Loqi [aaronpk] is making a bunch of changes to the structure of the Baltimore event pages based on feedback from this weekend
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[tantek] alright, lacking any explicit reasoning, I'd like to propose we explicitly switch (back) to using "Projects List", including naming the page URL that way too
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[tantek] Projects List is better because it more accurately reflects the optional nature, whereas "Guest List" implies a "required" aspect (Are you on the guest list?)
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[schmarty] Guest Book is an optional thing to sign
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[tantek] er, Guest Book
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[schmarty] i.e. "would you like to sign the guest book?"
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[schmarty] my recollection on this is vague but i think the idea was to reduce the pressure to come with a pre-planned project idea.
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[tantek] it feels a bit more about the person "do you feel you have the privilege to sign the guest book?" rather than de-personalizing it and making an optional no-stress place to share what you're working on if anything
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eddiehinkle Here's another question. Do we really find new people using it?
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eddiehinkle Or is it just the core people signing it over and over again
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[schmarty] eddiehinkle++
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Loqi eddiehinkle has 2 karma over the last year
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eddiehinkle Berlin 2018 does have several names I don't recognize
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[tantek] eddiehinkle, more the latter, and that's why I suggested "Projects List"
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[tantek] it makes it about "things" rather than "people", so hopefully removes (some?) in-crowd aspects that may be there unintentionally
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eddiehinkle I guess I'm wondering how many people use it and how much it's just overhead?
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eddiehinkle A decent number of people signed it in 2018, especially Berlin, NYC, Summit and Dusseldorf
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eddiehinkle However I wonder how much of it was because it was called Guest Book and people thought it's what they "should do"
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eddiehinkle and who looked at it for the ACTUAL projects?
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eddiehinkle ohhh actually that begs the question, who on the "Guest Book" actually listed a project
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eddiehinkle Because if it's a project list you should really only be putting yourself on there if you are listing project info
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eddiehinkle in fact, if we keep it we should probably do a new template because the current one has a bunch of person info and very little if any project info
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[tantek] right
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[schmarty] agreed with eddie: i think Project List requires a different structure from Guest Book.
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[tantek] it was meant as something for folks to express what they're excited about in advance, and find others also doing so
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[tantek] a different structure could make sense
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[schmarty] perhaps more like sections per project with a place to add your interest via {{addyourself}}
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eddiehinkle Gotcha. I think switching Guest Book to Projects List with a new structure is a good step. I don't think the current Guest Book does much different for us
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eddiehinkle schmarty++ That seems pretty interesting
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Loqi schmarty has 25 karma in this channel over the last year (58 in all channels)
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[tantek] what I'd like to avoid is just something *purely* project based where people dump lists of projects (which they aren't actively using themselves etc.)
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[tantek] I'm still trying to clean-up that mess at /projects
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[tantek] no need to replicate it per event
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eddiehinkle Yeah, I agree. We don't want people to just dump a bunch of projects
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[schmarty] Project Ideas might be a clearer name.
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[tantek] that's why I'm ok with using the current template structure
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[schmarty] since we also eventually make a Demos page
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[tantek] I think renaming the page is a benefit either way (with or without changed structure) and would like to at least make that incremental improvement
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[tantek] Demos page is a good analogy
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[schmarty] whatever the "before" version of the Demos page is :}
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[schmarty] tantek: thinking back on the convo w/ aaronpk, i believe we renamed it Guest Book because of the template and the information contained there. folks were not posting projects except as resume bullets.
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[schmarty] (i am particularly guilty of listing indieweb-related projects on the Guest Book page was a way of saying "you might know me from...")
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eddiehinkle Yeah, aaronpk and I are also guity
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eddiehinkle I have looked at other people's entries (like aaronpk's) to decide how to do mine. and I've just always seen p3k on aaronpk's
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[tantek] ooh good criticism [schmarty], resume bullets, can be offputting
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[schmarty] i think a rename without a new structure will end up making it more confusing overall about what content belongs on that page and from whom.
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eddiehinkle https://indieweb.org/2019/Austin/Guest_Book
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eddiehinkle Interesting analysis
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eddiehinkle Tantek: IndieWeb Projects: CASSIS (source), Whistle, Falcon
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eddiehinkle GWG: IndieWeb Projects: WordPress Indieweb plugins
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eddiehinkle aaronpk: IndieWeb Projects: p3k, IndieAuth spec
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eddiehinkle schmarty: ndieWeb Projects: 🕸💍, Screech, Slater, Spano, Morris, Kapowski, This Week in the IndieWeb Audio Edition
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eddiehinkle None of those four seem like plans for the upcoming IWC
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[schmarty] to be fair that was after we renamed the page to Guest Book
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eddiehinkle That's true :D
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[schmarty] compare with this one: https://indieweb.org/2017/Guest_List
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[schmarty] Douglas Beal: IndieWeb Projects: Run local WordPress indie web as Docker
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[schmarty] gRegor: IndieWeb Projects: ProcessWire Webmention and IndieAuth plugins, improving php-mf2, improving the wiki experience
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eddiehinkle Yeah, those are better
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[tantek] yeah
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[schmarty] you are in there as working on abode and indigenous and i think that was current and accurate at the time. :}
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eddiehinkle Yes, that's true
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eddiehinkle interestingly, (not to call you out, Tantek) but yours listed a lot even on the Guest List IndieWeb Projects: CASSIS JS∩PHP (on github), Whistle (URL shortener), Falcon (my CMS), RelMeAuth
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[tantek] eddiehinkle, fair, due to laziness and copy/paste
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eddiehinkle Hmmm, do we have Organizer Meetup at Austin? This might be a good topic
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[tantek] we don't
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eddiehinkle Gotcha
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[tantek] we discussed the possibility several times end of last year and no one showed interest
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eddiehinkle I wonder if we might consider periodic online based Organizer Meetups rather than tying them to being at an IWC extra early
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eddiehinkle like once a quarter (if needed) have an online Organizer Meetup, of course the quarter with the Summit would just be replaced with the Organizer Summit
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eddiehinkle But back to the Guest Book/Guest List/Project List ideas, it seems like the goal of that is to essentially be able to find other people with similar interests. Does that sound like a good summary?
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[tantek] eddiehinkle, copy/pasted since /2014/Guest_List 🙈
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[schmarty] :wq
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[tantek] and not make it seem like a require registry at all, or at all representative of who participates at the event
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[schmarty] lol wrong window
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eddiehinkle lol! 🙉
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[tantek] vi++
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Loqi vi has 1 karma over the last year
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eddiehinkle That's good to know. I might experiment with IWC Online a bit, since it's already not traditional since we have to change things up for Online
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eddiehinkle Maybe we'll learn some lessons for future IWCs
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[tantek] would Project Goals be better?
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[tantek] than Project List - i.e. both broaden it to be more inclusive of folks that don't have a project yet, and reduce resume bulleting
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[schmarty] i like it
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[schmarty] more specific than Project Ideas and waaaay more specific than Project List
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aaronpk I don't remember the conversation of deciding to name it "Project List" and I don't think I like that term either
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Loqi aaronpk: eddiehinkle left you a message 2 hours, 9 minutes ago: I know you've got a lot going on in NYC. Just sent a PR for IWC Online Event page when you happen to have the time. No rush
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[tantek] aaronpk because "Guest List" no longer made any sense since we did the Tito registration and nicer yyyy . indieweb.org pages
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aaronpk I remember that
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[tantek] so that left what was different about the content of that page, and it was just that people listed their projects their
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aaronpk but I don't remember that "project list" was the thing we wanted to change it to
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eddiehinkle.com edited /2019/Online (+49) "/* RSVP */ Change Guest Book to Project Goals" (view diff)
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aaronpk "goals" is better than "ideas" or "list" IMO
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[tantek] we had to change it to *something*
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[tantek] so I think Project List just happened as a literal default expression of what was in the page
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aaronpk I do remember a discussion somewhere about "Guest Book" being a better term than Guest List since it implies it's optional to sign it
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eddiehinkle.com deleted /2019/Online/Guest_Book "Switching Guest Book Page to Project Goals Etherpad"
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tantek.com edited /selfdogfood (+59) "emojicon, improve dfn, summaries for Why" (view diff)
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[tantek] I've heard no objections to "Project Goals" so I'll start renaming some pages
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[tantek] (and no better suggestions)
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eddiehinkle I agree. Project Goals seems good
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eddiehinkle.com edited /2019/Online (+282) "/* RSVP */ Make the next action steps a little clearer" (view diff)
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[tantek] projectgoals++
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Loqi projectgoals has 1 karma over the last year
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[eddie] !tell Zegnat,@Rose,jeremycherfas Trying to reconcile some of the IWC Online schedule balance between EU and US timezones. Let me know when you are around and I can do some short brainstorm chatting with you to get your perspective
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Zegnat I probably not be around a lot tonight. But should be around a lot tomorrow, also before and after virtual HWC
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[eddie] Awesome, tomorrow sounds great! Thanks Zegnat 🙂
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[eddie] Also, I just realized Loqi must be grumpy as I don't think they listened to my tell haha
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[eddie] !tell [Rose], jeremycherfas Trying to reconcile some of the IWC Online schedule balance between EU and US timezones. Let me know when you are around and I can do some short brainstorm chatting with you to get your perspective
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[eddie] There we go
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Zegnat .
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[eddie] I think I didn't have the space between user names
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[eddie] and I didn't put you on the second one because we had already touched base 🙂
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Zegnat Yeah, its fine
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Zegnat Also wondering if the first one may have broken on the @ sign the slack bridge put in
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[eddie] maybe. the second one had the @ though
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Zegnat Not on this side of the bridge ;)
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[eddie] ohhhh the first one wasn't properly linked so it was a REAL @
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[eddie] rather than a real mention which turns into a [user]
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[eddie] That was probably it 🙂
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Zegnat Exactly, the second one has the square-bracketed-Rose rather than the ated-Rose.
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eddiehinkle.com edited /2019/Online (+51) "/* Schedule */ Add session end time" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /talks (+39) "r" (view diff)
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[eddie] 👋 Hey!
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[Rose] I saw the tag anyway
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[Rose] I'm here!
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[eddie] So first question, for context, what timezone do you call home?
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[Rose] Central European (Summer) Time
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[Rose] Unless I'm in transit
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[eddie] Gotcha! perfect
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[eddie] Okay, so the idea for IWC Online is that we have a Kickoff/Intros on day 1, then all the sessions can essentially happen over a 24 hour period based on the time that's best for all of the attendees
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[Rose] And that is a between transit weekend
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[Rose] Sounds good to me!
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[eddie] So I think the biggest question is around the "hack day"/demos
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[Rose] I mean, if there's something exciting happening out of my timezone I'll stay up for it.
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[eddie] If we kick off the hackday/demos at 17:00 UTC (which is the current proposal) that ends up putting CET at 9pm?
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[eddie] So I'm thinking we're gonna have to tweak things because that gives essentially no hack time
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[eddie] before bed time for CET people
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[Rose] 9pm is ok, the only thing is it being Sunday it can't run too late.
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[eddie] exactly the concern
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[Rose] UTC is GMT is CET -1
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[Rose] Your timezones are off
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[eddie] ohhh gotcha
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[Rose] Unless we already went to summer time then
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[eddie] Nope, it's in March
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[Rose] Yeah, BST/CEST starts March 31st
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[Rose] So CET = UTC + 1
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[eddie] Gotcha so that's better, that would be 6pm then
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[Rose] The question is does that give the US-based long enough to prep their demos?
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[eddie] But still not much hack time
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[Rose] I would say we could push back 2 hours with relative ease.
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[Rose] Though that's just my schedule
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[eddie] I think with the current schedule we're going to run into sunday evening issues. I wonder if we were to move it back to Friday evening kick off and then Saturday evening we have the hack kick off then sunday evening We have demos
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[eddie] That kind of gives 24 ish hours for everyone to do everything
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[eddie] If we do it saturday morning, US is fine
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[eddie] but I think Europe ends up getting cut short because you all are ahead of us
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[Rose] That might work better
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[Rose] The starting Friday evening
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[Rose] The question is, which timezone?
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[eddie] I'm doing most things in UC
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[eddie] UTC
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[eddie] and then people figure out their zone from there
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[Rose] (Side note, this is one of the reasons why programmers hate timezones. That and countries/areas which just decide to change which zone they're in)
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[Rose] That is smart
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[eddie] So if the kickoff was Friday 7-9pm UTC that would be 8-10 CET
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[eddie] Does that feel off to you as a europe attendee?
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[Rose] No problem
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[eddie] Okay, California starts to have *potential issues* because it's noon for them
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[Rose] I'll be dead after flying back from Chicago and a week at work so as long as I can sit on the sofa with my laptop I'm happy.
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[Rose] West coasters, lagging behind 😛
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[eddie] Haha yep!
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[eddie] But something is gonna come up short
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[eddie] so I'm thinking it might be Californians needing to ask off a half or full day of work 😕
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[Rose] Can we have a double kickoff?
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[eddie] We could
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[Rose] Or a second round perhaps.
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[eddie] I had really wanted to try everyone at the same time
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[eddie] but that might not be do-able
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[Rose] You'll always have some people it won't work for.
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[Rose] 10pm Europe is 1pm West Coast
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[Rose] That might not be so bad. Maybe people could intro in their lunch breaks?
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[eddie] Ohhh that's true!
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[eddie] Yeah. So as someone in CET if all the synchronous bits were Fri/Sat/Sun starting at 8pm-10pm time slot that feels workable to you? So then the next step is to check in with West Coasters and see if we can make that work for them
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[eddie] if not, I think we'll end up with two kickoffs which isn't the BEST but might be the best we can do 🙂
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[Rose] That would be ok, it
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[Rose] It's not in the "Get up in the middle of the night" category 😄
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[eddie] haha makes sense 🙂 Thanks! I want to make sure since all the organizers at based on the US that you guys don't end up with the middle of the night shift 🙂
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[eddie] So I appreciate the brainstorming
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[Rose] The next podcast guest I interview I'll have to get up to record at 3am for, but I'm more willing to make these sacrifices than some others
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[Rose] (That's also on a Friday, where nothing is planned the next day)
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[eddie] haha wow! that's a fun recording time!
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[eddie] That's true, that does help!
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Zegnat I can easily do 8 to 10 pm any day of the week, including Sunday. Just dropping that in :)
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[Rose] I just hope I don't sound drunk
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[eddie] 😆 [Rose]
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[eddie] Zegnat That's great to hear! Thanks. You're in CET as well?
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Zegnat Yep
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[eddie] :thumbsup: Excellent, thanks!
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[Rose] Zegnat and I, and many others are timezone buddies!
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Zegnat Most of the EU folks are CET. And a few are UTC (UK). I can’t imediately think of anyone in UTC+2...
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[eddie] uh oh, I see a west coaster typing... my scheduling might be about to go up in smoke 🙂
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jacky lol
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[eddie] Ohhh that's super helpful to know Zegnat
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Zegnat Though I have also done the whole moving-my-sleep-around for Summit, so I (like Rose) may have a skewed perception of time availability
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[Rose] Yeah, for the people in the UK the plans should work for them too.
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[tantek] Hmm, I'm looking at https://indieweb.org/IndieWebCamps and it looks like there are different approaches going on or trying to make that page serve different purposes - do folks have specific opinions about what they expect when they visit that page? (I have some, but will withhold and let others speak-up. regardless it needs some gardening)
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[eddie] I would expect IndieWebCamps would explain what an IndieWebCamp is, why I would be interested in it and some relavant information and/or media from a select few past camps to get a better understanding
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[eddie] That said, I'm one of the people that messed with your page, tantek haha so my opinion is biased
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[Rose] What [eddie] said plus a link to find upcoming IWCs
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[tantek] ok that's a good summary
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[Rose] You know, for the "so, I like the sound of this, how can I go to one" people
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[Rose] (Which is how I ended up at Nuremberg last year, and it was awesome!)
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[tantek] these all make sense. and the deep diving in "Tips" and "Barriers" at the top does not serve any of those purposes
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[eddie] It does not
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[eddie] I moved other stuff DOWN and didn't get to add new stuff at the top
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[Rose] (Also: [eddie], you schedule isn't in flames yet!)
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[eddie] so that's how it ended up in it's current awkward state 🙂 sorry
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[tantek] oh ok
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[tantek] per what [Rose] said, I think "find upcoming IWCs" is a fairly urgent thing to put at the top
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[eddie] Definitely!
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[tantek] after a summary dfn which I think we already have
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[tantek] we used to have photos from each camp next to its entry in the past list
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[Rose] The only thing I'd say about the group photo: it's not representative of what actually goes on.
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jacky.wtf edited /timezone (+254) "moved non-definitive text into criticism block; add light definition of them." (view diff)
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[Rose] What would be awesome, would be a link to the YouTube playlist for past camps, but a lot of the videos are not in playlists
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[eddie] Ohhh that's a good idea
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[eddie] maybe a couple of the action shots from the IWC in Germany? I think I remember seeing some candids taken at one of them
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[tantek] Rose, good point about the group photo
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[Rose] That does show people what goes on fairly well I think.
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[eddie] plus a link to YouTube playlists
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[Rose] I mean, I attended part of NYC virtually and it cemented my decision to attend.
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[Rose] A recorded video could do that too.
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[eddie] plus recorded video is probably less intimidating than remote participation, so that definitely seems like a good entry point
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[Rose] I may also be considering attending a US IWC this year. Would have to be East Coast though. West coast takes forever to get there.
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Zegnat Julie’s photos are very good at capturing people in the moment, so could just pull a couple from the Tollwerk IWC albums. (And those are liberally licensed.)
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Zegnat And are probably the photos [eddie] thinks of from the IWCs in Germany
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[eddie] Zegnat, That's the photos I was thinking of
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Zegnat :D
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[eddie] Zegnat++
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Loqi Zegnat has 33 karma in this channel over the last year (168 in all channels)
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[eddie] [Rose]++ for the help brainstorming IWC Online
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Loqi [Rose] has 3 karma in this channel over the last year (15 in all channels)
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[eddie] tantek++ for getting to the root of the IWC page
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Loqi tantek has 23 karma in this channel over the last year (85 in all channels)
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[eddie] loqi++ for doing all these thankless jobs
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Loqi loqi has 9 karma in this channel over the last year (54 in all channels)
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[eddie] all done 🙂
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[Rose] loq++ for being cat like which I approve og
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Loqi slow down!
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[Rose] *of
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[Rose] loqi++ even
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[eddie] Headed out to enjoy the nice weather in DC, I'll be back on a bit later to bother more people about IWC Online 😆
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[Rose] Have fun! Don't get polar vortexed
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[eddie] Thanks! We're in the eye of the vortex (if that's a thing) (aka warm weather before it gets cold again)
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jeremycherfas I can see I’m going to start planning to have those evenings free if at all possible.
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Loqi jeremycherfas: [eddie] left you a message 42 minutes ago: Trying to reconcile some of the IWC Online schedule balance between EU and US timezones. Let me know when you are around and I can do some short brainstorm chatting with you to get your perspective
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jeremycherfas Now is not great. Earlier in the day is better for me. But Rose said most of what I would have said re timing.
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[tantek] Zegnat, while you're here, you added the "Tips" on /IndieWebCamp right? They seem a bit, out of context, I'm wondering what was the context you had in mind when you added them? And for what audience(s)?
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Zegnat Let me see
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[Rose] Maybe
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[Rose] *Maybe "hosting an IWC" should be a separate page?
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Zegnat I think it was supposed to be for the people organising. It feels like something I wrote coming out of a discussion, but I can’t offhand recall with who or where
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[tantek] it is a separate page
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Zegnat The “enable people to ask questions” thing feels a little inline with some of the organisers stuff we discussed in Berlin last year: small tricks to make sure people feel confident in speaking up
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[tantek] but that speaks to the problem of the page that you were unable to find the link to it
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Zegnat Probably shouldn’t be on a page *about* IndieWebCamps though
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[Rose] I thought it was.
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[Rose] Hmm
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tantek.com edited /IndieWebCamps (+262) "add explicit upcoming section at top because people look for that, move deep tives into Tips, Barriers, and How to organize orphan section to bottom" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /IndieWebCamps (+19) "emojis" (view diff)
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sknebel aaronpk: can you please turn on Loqi's auto +v in #knownchat until the channel modes are changed? (or have loqi override chanserv regularly, if that's a thing)
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tantek.com edited /IndieWebCamp_Organizing (+6078) "dfn, headings, move tips & barriers & faq here" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /IndieWebCamps () "(-5668) link to organizing at top, move all organizing topics to that page" (view diff)
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[kevinmarks] So, any ideas for a better phrase than "self-dogfooding" - I see it like "practice what you preach" but there must be a more positive way to put it that doesn't bring up dreadful mental images. "live your dream"?
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aaronpk I tried to do that yesterday but not sure why it didn't work
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[tantek] more like preach what you practice
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aaronpk Loqi is ops there so should have worked
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[tantek] kevinmarks, I keep feeling we need to improve upon our use of "dogfooding" as well
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[tantek] IndieWebCamp has grown enough beyond "development leaders" that phrases like "dogfooding" are likely sounding more like jargon / Shibboleths than serving a good purpose
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[tantek] [Rose], [eddie], zegnat can you review /IndieWebCamp and see if that looks better?
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[tantek] if you can find a good "featured" image from Berlin 2018 that would be great to embed at the top right of the page
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tantek.com edited /IndieWebCamp_Organizing (+4) "linky" (view diff)
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[Rose] Only somewhat related: Why is Germany in all caps?
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[Rose] And might there be a way to use partials to grab a list of upcoming events from another page so there's one less place to edit?
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[Rose] I like the page though
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tantek.com edited /IndieWebCamp_Organizing (+291) "/* Before */ note need for at least one detail-oriented organizer, and at least one onsite too" (view diff)
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[tantek] Rose, all caps countries are I think a postal convention
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[Rose] Just looks odd to me, it's not a complaint.
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[tantek] yeah we can drop it
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[tantek] I think partly to call attention to non-US camps
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[Rose] I think if the state in Germany was before the country name it wouldn't look so odd.
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[tantek] right
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[tantek] I'd like one fewer place to edit yes. However, got to manually fix something before you can automate it
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[tantek] most things need tweaking before automation
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[Rose] Naturally
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[tantek] I noticed the page had 2016 upcoming camps commented out at the top which likely means there were no upcoming updates since then
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Zegnat I like the page flow
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tantek.com edited /IndieWebCamps (+94) "feature photo same as home page, feel free to replace both with something more evocative of an IndieWebCamp, drop country names to simplify, direct IG tag links" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Organizers (+1540) "/* Issues */ Minimum Viable Organizing" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2019 (+57) "Project Goals" (view diff)
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tantek.com moved /2019/Guest_Book to /2019/Project_Goals "rename per discussion in meta"
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tantek.com edited /2019/Project_Goals (-118) "reduce my projects list to goals" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2019/Project_Goals (+3) "on" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2019/Project_Goals (+60) "dfn, heading, focus on projects" (view diff)
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tantek.com moved /2019/Austin/Guest_Book to /2019/Austin/Project_Goals "rename per discussion in meta"
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tantek.com edited /2019/Austin/Project_Goals (+167) "dfn, heading, focus on projects" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2019/Austin (+34) "Project Goals" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2019/Austin/Project_Goals (-92) "rm old dfn" (view diff)
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[tantek] Updated: /2019 and /2019/Austin - please review [aaronpk] [schmarty] [eddie] re: s/Guest Book/Project Goals
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martymcgui.re edited /2019/Austin/Project_Goals (-11) "/* Remote Participants */ update my projects to just stuff i am hoping to work on." (view diff)
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[schmarty] tantek++ looks good
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Loqi tantek has 24 karma in this channel over the last year (86 in all channels)
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gRegorLove Catching up on the Guest Book/List conversation, the attendee template dates back to when that page was the way you RSVPed, before Tito and the subdomain pages. I've definitely been guilty of copy/pasting it each year, occasionally updating it.
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gRegorLove Always used it as a "you might know me from" rather than plans to work on at IWC. I rarely know what I'm going to work on at IWC :)
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gRegorLove I like the updates
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tantek.com edited /2019/Austin/Project_Goals (-115) "reduce my projects list to goals" (view diff)
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[eddie] !tell tantek I’m thinking if it’s ONLY about project goals I don’t think we should have Regrets and Missed sections. That’s for Guest Book stuff. Besides that, definitely an improvement
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[tantek] good catch and agree. want to remove those?
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[eddie] Sure, will do!
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@jkphl ↩️ @depone @btconf @IndieWebCampDE Coole Sache. See you there! (twitter.com/_/status/1092908215505965061)
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eddiehinkle.com edited /2019/Austin/Project_Goals (-270) "Remove Missed and Regrets due to change to Project Goals rather than Guest Book" (view diff)
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eddiehinkle.com edited /2019/Project_Goals (-174) "Remove Missed and Regrets due to change to Project Goals rather than Guest Book" (view diff)
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[eddie] !tell [chrisaldrich] [dougbeal] Trying to determine timing of IWC Online events. Considering a Fri/Sat/Sun night thing, but for both Europe and US that would put kickoff at lunch time on Friday in West Coast. Is something like that at all do-able or does that not seem possible?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[eddie] !tell gRegorLove Trying to determine timing of IWC Online events. Considering a Fri/Sat/Sun night thing, but for both Europe and US that would put kickoff at lunch time on Friday in West Coast. Is something like that at all do-able or does that not seem possible?
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gRegorLove when is IWC Online?
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Loqi what
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gRegorLove what is IWC Online?
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Loqi Join us for the very first IndieWebCamp Online. IndiewebCamp Online is a one-day IndieWebCamp conducted entirely online without a physical venue https://indieweb.org/IWC_Online
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gregorlove.com edited /IWC_Online (+0) "r" (view diff)
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gRegorLove [eddie] I'm ok with whatever works for the most people. Depending on work schedules around then I might be able to join then, otherwise I'd just join a bit later.
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gRegorLove Appreciate the thought, but don't have to schedule around me :)
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[eddie] !tell GWG jgmac1106 Trying to work out some final timing issues with the schedule to match up Europe and US if possible. Thinking about the synchronous events being Fri/Sat/Sun evening UTC which would be 3PM Friday for the kickoff. Is that something that is doable or will we need to do two separate kickoffs (one for US and one for Europe)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[eddie] Sounds good, thanks for the input gRegorLove!
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[dougbeal] When is IWC Online
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Loqi [dougbeal]: [tantek] left you a message on 2018-11-26 at 7:10pm UTC: is HWC Seattle meeting this week?
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Loqi [dougbeal]: [tantek] left you a message on 2018-12-29 at 7:03pm UTC: For HWC in 2019, since we haven't had a HWC meetup in a couple of weeks now, we could start 2019 with either January 2nd, or January 9th. The 9th would be the regular date, two weeks after the 26th when we had scheduled but canceled. So that's what I'm leaning towards. Fellow HWC organizers WDYT?
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Loqi IndieWebCamp Online 2019 will be the second virtual camp, 9-10 March 2019 (save the dates!) https://indieweb.org/IWC_Online
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dougbeal eddie: Lunch time west coast kickoff would work fine for me.
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dougbeal Is IWC Austin going to be remote as well?
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[tantek] welcome back dougbeal!
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dougbeal tantek: thanks! Foolscap is done with (though I'm Captain/Chair for 2020)
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GWG dougbeal: You can stop by in person
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Loqi GWG: [eddie] left you a message 38 minutes ago: jgmac1106 Trying to work out some final timing issues with the schedule to match up Europe and US if possible. Thinking about the synchronous events being Fri/Sat/Sun evening UTC which would be 3PM Friday for the kickoff. Is that something that is doable or will we need to do two separate kickoffs (one for US and one for Europe)
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jacky eating what you make <- my vote for "selfdogfooding"
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jacky just would want a "one-worder"
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jacky (a sub for selfdogfooding)
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GWG "Cooking your Own Dinner?"
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[tantek] some good reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_your_own_dog_food#Criticisms_and_support
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[tantek] jacky I like that line of thinking too
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GWG It needs to be catchy.
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jacky lol this is funny imo " software developers may be blind to usability "
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jacky because it's the thing that the "war" of editors is predicated on
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jacky but yeah now I see the "live what you preach" bit coming in to
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jacky maybe "embrace, extend and enlighten?" or (enjoy)
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jacky to play on M$'s approach to things
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GWG Does this bring you joy?
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[tantek] from WP: "Developers of IBM's mainframe operating systems have long used the term "eating our own cooking". "
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[tantek] "eat your cooking'?
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@ChandeepKhosa ↩️ Will see you at HWC hopefully :) Will be great to see this presentation as a follow on from your great @drupalcampbe session on #IndieWeb (twitter.com/_/status/1092932278555234305)
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jacky one more syllable but it works for me (imo)
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[tantek] one more syllable than ?
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jacky selfdogfooding
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[kevinmarks] 'Eat what you cook?'
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[kevinmarks] There is a vaguely related phrase "don't shit where you eat" which is pretty nasty
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jacky lol that's actually what I'm trying to avoid
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dougbeal Theoretical vs Experimental?
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dougbeal GWG: not in the budget to go to Austin
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tantek.com edited /Gitea (+52) "merge a bit from the dogfooding page" (view diff)