#meta 2019-02-07

2019-02-07 UTC
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@jgmac1106 ↩️ @actualham DM me a snail mail address and I will make sure you get #IndieWeb and #microformats stickers. (https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/s/sXbNC) (twitter.com/_/status/1093298712267407367)
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[tantek] ooh that reminds me - aaronpk, do we have new sticker runs ready for IWC Austin? or Manton do you already have a bunch?
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[tantek] I personally have run out of the microformats stickers and the nice IndieWebCamp stickers that actually say "IndieWebCamp" (which perhaps a new run could say "indieweb.org")
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aaronpk I’m running low too now, I have time to put in a new order tho!
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aaronpk And I have the budget for it too :-)
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[jgmac1106] I have two stacks of IWC stickers I think
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jacky en route for IWC SF
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eddiehinkle.com edited /IndieWebCamps (+54) "/* Upcoming IndieWebCamps */ add IndieWebCamp online" (view diff)
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eddiehinkle.com edited /Planning (+122) "/* Planned */ add IWC Online" (view diff)
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aaronpk is there somewhere easy to find that lists all the upcoming IWCs in 2019?
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aaronpk https://indieweb.org/events is too full of other stuff
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aaronpk i guess https://indieweb.org/Planning is close
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aaronpk but i wouldn't send a potential attendee to that page
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aaronparecki.com edited /2019 (+1) "/* Schedule */ lol not june 39th" (view diff)
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[eddie] aaronpk also /IndieWebCamp
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aaronpk oh there we go
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aaronpk thx
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[eddie] 👍
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tantek.com edited /discuss (+75) "add link to join the slack community to the Slack Users explicit section, based on user testing" (view diff)
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[tantek] aaronpk I made the editorial decision to only list upcoming IWCs in 2019 on /IndieWebCamp that have 2+ organizers and a confirmed venue + date
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[tantek] also it's in the /Template:IndieWebCamp that's displayed at the bottom of every IndieWebCamp event page
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aaronpk i think that's a good idea
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[tantek] what is Kaja
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Loqi https://indieweb.org/Kaja
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[jgmac1106] <--Goes to list my second organizer
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tantek.com edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net (+31) "add p-summary to help Loqi" (view diff)
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gRegorLove I'm in https://meet.jit.si/HWC-Americas for the vHWC Americas
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[cleverdevil] When is it over? I may be able to join in a bit if I can get my kids to sleep 😉
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gRegorLove [cleverdevil], just starting! So quiet writing hour, then HWC... or however it goes :)
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gRegorLove [eddie], I saw you. Now you're gone
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gRegorLove (and heard you)
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GWG I have something on the hour. Might try to hop in. I was already at one HWC today
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[Coty_Beasley] What is webmention
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Loqi Webmention is a web standard for mentions and conversations across the web, a powerful building block that is used for a growing federated network of comments, likes, reposts, and other rich interactions across the decentralized social web https://indieweb.org/Webmention
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tantek.com edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net (+103) "minimal infobox for Kaja" (view diff)
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[eddie] [cleverdevil] it should go until about 11:30
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[eddie] EST
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[eddie] 2 hours
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tantek.com edited /payment (+84) "/* payment page examples */ Jacky" (view diff)
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@EddieHinkle Registration for IndieWebCamp Online 2019 is open!, it's the first IndieWebCamp based on the internet since 2014 and we're experimenting with really embracing the internet medium for everything it has. Come experiment with us? (https://eddiehinkle.com/2019/02/06/13/note/) (twitter.com/_/status/1093346947061166080)
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aaronpk can't belive the last one was 5 years ago
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@t #indieweb Homebrew Website Club @MozSF: @jackyalcine (nice site: https://jacky.wtf) came up with a great backronym for "js;dr": JavaScript [required]; Didn’t Render Original #js;dr dfn: http://tantek.com/2015/069/t1/js-dr-javascript-required-dead (https://twitter.com/t/status/575434935554584576) http://tantek.com/t4yt1 (twitter.com/_/status/1093347941258010624)
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[manton] [tantek] [aaronpk] I ordered a bunch of IndieWebCamp stickers to include as a bonus for Kickstarter backers, and I'm actually just sending them this week. I should have extras. I don't have any Microformats stickers, though.
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jacky microformats needs more love
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aaronpk oh great okay!
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[tantek] 🎶 I want my M(icroformats)TV 🎶
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gRegorLove Lost you, [eddie]
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[eddie] Hmmm Jitsi had a network problem
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@t #indieweb HWCSF @beacrea https://coty.design showed #scifi #variablefont https://www.readvisions.com/marvin Cool scrolling & hover effects with #JS, still renders beautifully without JS. Good progressive enhancement. #HTMLfirst #CSS #variablefonts #typography http://tantek.com/t4yt2 (twitter.com/_/status/1093355012867194880)
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[eddie] Hmm, that's strange. gRegorLove GWG did either of you guys get disconnected or was that just me? Not sure if the server is having issues or if my computer/network is having issues
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GWG Just you?
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gRegorLove I got disconnected. I'm on again but I don't think GWG can hear me
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[eddie] how strange!
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[eddie] ohhhh
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[eddie] hmm
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gRegorLove Maybe his keyboard is too loud
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[eddie] We didn't run into any of this this morning, so I'm wondering if their shared server is having load support issues if a lot of people are using it right now
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GWG gRegorLove: It says you are muted.
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@khurtwilliams I just registered for IndieWebCamp Online 2019 https://ti.to/indiewebcamp/indiewebcamp-online-2019 (twitter.com/_/status/1093357444548444161)
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gRegorLove GWG: Weird, I think it's cached or something. I was muted but not now. Eddie and I can hear each other.
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GWG I'll refresh
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[eddie] I just heard you gRegorLove
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aaronpk [eddie]: did you add the "show me on the guest list" option in tito?
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aaronpk for online
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[eddie] I did :)
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[eddie] After I saw your comment I added all the things
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aaronpk awesome thanks
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@jackyalcine Came from a nice night at Mozilla HQ for the #IndieWeb Homebrew Website Club (IWC) with Tantek, Ben and and Coty. Learned about variable fonts - I might make use of this for http://black.af. (https://v2.jacky.wtf/post/ba6154ba-ffa7-44dd-afa6-325e6064974e) (twitter.com/_/status/1093398109441404928)
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jacky one day, I'll sit down and figure out how to properly do cross-platform tags
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kaja.sknebel.net edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net/upcoming-hwcs () "(-642) update from /Events" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /cassis.js (+57) "add link to live in production version" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /cassis.js (+31) "summary for Loqi" (view diff)
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tantek.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:2019-037-hwc-sf.jpg]]" https://indieweb.org/File:2019-037-hwc-sf.jpg"
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tantek.com edited /events/2019-02-06-homebrew-website-club (+139) "SF photo!" (view diff)
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Zegnat !tell GWG, eddie, gRegorLove if you have any opinions about Jitsi to add after last night: https://indieweb.org/Virtual_HWC#Jitsi_Meet
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi Zegnat: [eddie] left you a message 13 hours, 20 minutes ago: That's too bad that when someone talks the presented screen disappears 😞 It would be nice if we could control that more
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comunicacionabierta.net created /User:Comunicacionabierta.net (+3405) "Created page with "El hecho de crear, proponer, reflexionar y trabajar desde la Comunicación, es hoy más que nunca, un ámbito de posibilidades que se potencian y multiplican desde la intelige..."" (view diff)
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comunicacionabierta.net edited /User:Comunicacionabierta.net (+15) (view diff)
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@danicotillas ↩️ Parece que al haber instalado @indiewebcamp ahora muestra esta opción, que no está tampoco mal. Toca saber si este tuiqui saldrá ahora en la web. (twitter.com/_/status/1093461533538037760)
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jgmac1106 crap I though there was a vHWC-Americas but when I checked here I didn’t see it: https://indieweb.org/Events wish I clicked on 2019-02-06 bc it is listed on the page….I told a some people who wanted to go that I must have had my days wrong
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Zegnat jgmac1106, tip, there is a /next-hwc page that should always list the things :D
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jgregorymcverry.com edited /User:Jgregorymcverry.com (+23) "/* Done */ added mastodon plugin to done" (view diff)
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jgmac1106 yeah it was my mistake, I knew we talked about it at vHWC-Europ—I should have dug harder it was just Nate not a bunch of people
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jgmac1106 was trying to do three in a day, probably better I sat down and fell asleep to Antman and Wasp
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jgregorymcverry.com edited /User:Jgregorymcverry.com (+40) "/* Done */ added plugin" (view diff)
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jgregorymcverry.com edited /User:Jgregorymcverry.com (+62) "/* Still to Accomplish (as in requires other people) */ added pilot of chat" (view diff)
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@danicotillas ↩️ Puse ActivityPub pero aún no me funciona, igual creo que seguro que ese no es. Luego puse IndieWeb y sumé el de WebMention. Cuando instalas IndieWeb te pone varias recomendaciones. De ahí acabé en https://brid.gy/ y sumé la web... Ya no sé cuál está haciendo qué. (twitter.com/_/status/1093474225644548097)
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@danicotillas ↩️ Reflexión 3: si es que IndieWeb realmente logra que desde tu web manejes las riendas de tus pods federados... ahí estamos hablando de algo serio papi. "Autonomía" como palabra toma un sentido mucho más profundo cuando le quitamos la dependencia a las horribles notificaciones. (twitter.com/_/status/1093475691360858112)
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GWG By the way, re Jitsi, we keep having to refresh because we lost audio or video. Might be the public instance
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Loqi GWG: Zegnat left you a message 1 hour, 53 minutes ago: if you have any opinions about Jitsi to add after last night: https://indieweb.org/Virtual_HWC#Jitsi_Meet
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@jgmac1106 Well it is official, because we have no officials, the Homebrew Website Club New Haven chapter hosted by the @scsu School of Education has renamed ourselves the Elm City Webmakers: https://elmcitywebmakers.glitch.me/ #IndieWeb #nhv #ctedu (https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/s/24fVaH) (twitter.com/_/status/1093480644892651526)
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jgregorymcverry.com edited /User:Jgregorymcverry.com (+51) "/* Done */ added GitHub" (view diff)
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GWG I wonder if there is a way to improve remote participation to the point that I can just stay home and come to everything
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jgmac1106 gwg jitsi was great
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GWG Not saying that I would never come, but...
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GWG jgmac1106, it looks good. But it is more the people and process part
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jgmac1106 I was want to experiment with a hybrid model once…where local HWCs gather but it is still an online event, so you get the love of f2f with the equity of remote
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jgmac1106 so HWC NYC, SanFran, Berlin, New Haven meet in small nodes but we have a much larger onlien event…Want to get through IWC Online first eddie doign awesoem job organizing that, if it goes well maybe try the hybrid model next year
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jgmac1106 or encourage it for the Summit
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GWG I think we can do it. Online is a great way to work on improving remote
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jgmac1106 you know maybe I will talk to my library in town (don’t want to go to office on weekend plus 1.5 hrs away might as well go hang with you tmiller and schmarty in NYC for remote if I did that
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jgmac1106 see if I can host the event
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jgmac1106 but nothing stopping tmiller schamrty and gwg from getting together for f2f during online
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jgmac1106 or encouraging meetups at night…maybe I do that in Providence, trying to do meet up with jmac and eduquinn
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GWG jgmac1106, that wouldn't be a bad idea...remote meetups.
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GWG But we need to figure how to make things run smoothly
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jgmac1106 yeah we can have online events but then encourage either group hacking sessions or night time meet ups to keep the social element
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jgmac1106 exactly, get through Online first,
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GWG We have software issues to overcome. For in person, hardware. Then planning
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GWG But nice to dream of more
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jgmac1106 did you try Jitsi last night? I thought it worked well enough
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jgmac1106 in the end chat, etherpad, and wiki enough as emergency fallback, need to think through how we set up rooms and booking of rooms
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GWG We had some issues where it disconnected one or more of us. Thought it might be congestion on the server
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jgmac1106 gwg and I think we would have four parallel channels going. Do we need four free accounts?
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GWG I'm not sure, I just used the link. I need to read more on the product
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GWG I have been swamped lately
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Zegnat Four parallel channels in what? Jitsi? Just open more links, no more set-up required than that
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Zegnat I mentioned just setting up a convention, much as for the etherpads, where sessions could all use the same prefix for room names, e.g: meet.jit.si/iwc-sessionhashtag that way anyone can discover all ongoing rooms
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jgregorymcverry.com edited /2019/Online (-8) "removed stub" (view diff)
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@jgmac1106 @actualham @kenbauer @cogdog @cathieleblanc @dancohen @wiobyrne @readwriting @anna_phd @ncte Do you think any of may want to make some of @IndieWebCamp Online 3/9-3/10 https://2019.indieweb.org/online? #DoOO #digped #literacies (https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/s/LUhW6) (twitter.com/_/status/1093496234072068096)
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jgmac1106 zegnat perfect idea!
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@actualham ↩️ I would and likely have time those days, though pref would be for simple and smaller! (twitter.com/_/status/1093496889838895104)
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jgmac1106 keeps the same naming convention
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@actualham ↩️ @jgmac1106 You are like a personal #indieweb genie! (twitter.com/_/status/1093499193786880000)
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@jgmac1106 ↩️ Finally check out lurk at remote session @IndieWebCamp Austin s 2/23 or join any of our bi-monthly events remotely. The Elm City Webmakers will run another Homebrew Website Club 2./20 and anytime just ask me. I will will help or find people… https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2019/02/07/actualham-finally-check-out-lurk-at-remote (twitter.com/_/status/1093502417805758465)
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@actualham ↩️ @jgmac1106 @indiewebcamp ❤️ (twitter.com/_/status/1093503889285017601)
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@Mixed_Realities Registration for #IndieWebCamp Online 2019 is open http://ow.ly/zoC030nCaZ2 #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/1093508853113782273)
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@jgmac1106 Yes: just RSVPd!! I am getting really excited for @IndieWebCamp Online as all the parts start to coalesce.: https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2019/02/07/yes-just-rsvpd-i-am-getting-really-excited-for-indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/1093523911915028481)
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www.jeremycherfas.net edited /microblog (+1274) (view diff)
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www.jeremycherfas.net edited /microblog (+11) "Description of microblog as the thing, rather than the specific application." (view diff)
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eddiehinkle.com edited /Virtual_HWC (+309) "/* Jitsi Meet */ HWC Americas" (view diff)
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www.jeremycherfas.net edited /microblog (+105) "Add dual use of microblog for the individual post and the aggregating microblog." (view diff)
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@jgmac1106 If there are designers looking to get involved in more #opensource #foss projects or simply build up portfolio would love an #IndieWeb EDU logo: here is style guide and logo info: https://indieweb.org/style-guide and https://indieweb.org/logo but put your own flair… https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2019/02/07/if-there-are-designers-looking-to-get (twitter.com/_/status/1093536923723939840)
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@megarush1024 Today’s work playlist is: “Tired of Stupid”. Overwhelmingly metal, plus some alternative and hard rock from the 80’s, and some other stuff to leaven it. I didn’t attend last night’s virtual Homebrew Website Club because I was tired after work and was in… https://wp.me/p54bqC-ozn (twitter.com/_/status/1093537822026461184)
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@ken_bauer ↩️ Caught in our trap! Excellent. (twitter.com/_/status/1093540249169522688)
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[tantek] Zegnat, if you want IWC Nürnberg this year you may have to step up to be a lead organizer of it. Jkphl is taking a break, though if you do step up and put in the overall planning work, I’m guessing he may be able to help with providing a venue which is one the hardest parts
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[tantek] If you’re serious about it, start a Nuremberg section on /Planning and add yourself as the first organizer
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[tantek] (Re 01:55 mention of Nürnberg in #indieweb)
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loqi.me created /plemora (+20) "prompted by [jgmac1106] and redirect added by [tantek]" (view diff)
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[jgmac1106] oops spelling
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[Rose] !tell Zegnat I'm willing to help out with organising however I can.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Zegnat I don't believe in organising from 1300 km away of my only ground contact isn't in on it. I know jkphl isn't doing anything IndieWeb around the digital festival, just minor hope that through the year he might want to organise something again, haha
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Loqi Zegnat: [Rose] left you a message 4 minutes ago: I'm willing to help out with organising however I can.
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sknebel [Rose]: Vienna? :D
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Zegnat If I organise anything it'll be in Gothenburg. Though likely not this year.
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jeremycherfas I'd come to Vienna in a shot.
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sknebel (although I realize getting a new location up is harder than a repeat of an established one, as Vlissingen showed :/)
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Zegnat I haven't been to Austria in years. Could be fun as well.
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[Rose] I meant Nuremberg
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[Rose] If someone helps me I'll organise Vienna.
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Zegnat sknebel it does help if you are able to get some interest from the community before hand. E.g. jeremycherfas saying he'd come to Vienna.
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sknebel sure, it made clear how important that is
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Zegnat I think that's a good reason to have the on-wiki poll for weekends that work for people. Get a feel of people interested in actually coming.
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jeremycherfas If only Rome weren't so difficult. There's just no visible interest. At least where I look.
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[Rose] I'd fly to Rome. Short hop.
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sknebel jeremycherfas: are there Wordpress or ... events you could hook onto for something smaller? or also not your crowd?
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[Rose] Next week at work I'll ask and see if they would give me a location, we are university after all
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jeremycherfas That's two of us.
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jeremycherfas And I'd train to Vienna, given half a chance and bags of money.
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[Rose] Advance tickets can be cheap.
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[Rose] Would people want Vienna to be close to Berlin and to Dusseldorf off timewise or more spreadout?
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jeremycherfas Very true. I've even got a senior card on Trenitalia.
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Zegnat Hmm. I should reach out to Ton and Frank and see what the plans around IWC Utrecht stand at
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[Rose] I am definitely in for Utrecht
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sknebel Zegnat: also point htem at Düsseldorf if they aren't already, that should be reachable?
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sknebel date wouldn't matter to me, totally unplanned as of now
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sknebel if I end up in Berlin Vienna would clearly work, with the night trains I'd be flexible
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[Rose] May is starting to look very tricky for me, especially with WWDC dates unknown I don't know when I'm going to be flying to the US until that sorted
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[Rose] And that of course means that June is completely unpredictable
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Zegnat Spread out is much better for me as I cant really take longer stretches of time off, nor work remotely without wrangling some arms that I dont want to wrangle while still in probation period at the new job
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sknebel :D
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[Rose] Then how about August or after?
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[Rose] If people seem happy with that vague sort of time frame I can see about wrangling work, and then from there about putting up a wiki page.
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sknebel sounds good to me. if you can get a location at work that solves a big thing
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[jgmac1106] Who is tmiller?
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jeremycherfas Spread out is better for me too.
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sknebel you can add a rough date range for voting to /Planning first
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jeremycherfas Ton might like Vienna too; that's where we first met, decades ago, as he reminded me in Nuremburg
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[Rose] If work doesn't work then I need to evaluate if it's viable for me. So I'd rather do planning after having a possible location sorted.
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Zegnat drops out because phone drops of the grid
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sknebel [Rose]: sure
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[Rose] Just thinking of another location, is there an easy way to allow people to donate towards the cost of the location if we can't get one for free?
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sknebel and donations can go through the opencollective thing
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sknebel aaronpk can probably tell you more about those things than me, I only observed organization for now
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[Rose] Great thanks, I'll make sure to dive into the wiki too
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[jgmac1106] co-sponsors with professors or student university clubs for free space
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[Rose] We provide all the equipment in those places, so I think I'm fairly ok there. Plus I'm doing the Deacon of Informatics a very big favour right now. Which should help.
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[jgmac1106] yeah they will probably give you free soace and want their name attached to event
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[Rose] Might, this is Austria. Getting staff to open buildings on Sundays is not easy.
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[Rose] Saturdays are tricky even.
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[jgmac1106] same thing happened in nYC
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[jgmac1106] why we had to do Fri-Sat could not find any public space donated on Sat-Sun
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rootedfromnature.com edited /2019/New_Haven (+15) "/* Organizers */" (view diff)
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boffosocko.com edited /Nuzzel (+333) "typo; context by clicking facepile; sale to Scroll" (view diff)
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[tmiller] [jgmac1106] I’m tmiller
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[jgmac1106] Who is Rootedfromnature.com?
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[jgmac1106] was trying to get Loqi's help , let me find the right page for you to add your /chat-name and what I think is called a sparkline??
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[jgmac1106] nwm sparkline just put youself here and Loqi will work: https://indieweb.org/chat-names
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[jgmac1106] nvm
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[tmiller] That’s me
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[jgmac1106] I know I was testing Loqi
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[jgmac1106] sorry for confusion
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[tmiller] [tantek] how would I go about helping for the Germany indie web camps ? Also are the dates for Berlin confirmed I looked at the updates page but I want make sure before booking my flight
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[tmiller] [jgmac1106] no worries, I’m just still figuring out how to do things
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[jgmac1106] and we have been trying to figure out how to make doing things easier so you are helping everyone
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[jgmac1106] https://indieweb.org/Events
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[tantek] [tmiller] yes! Yulia (of Mozilla Berlin, pretty sure you met her) has booked the rooms
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[tmiller] [tantek]Awesome! Im going to book my flight today I think and start looking for air bnb or hotels! I’m going to take three weeks and go to a couple places in Europe/UK
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[tmiller] [tantek] let me know what I could help organize! I’ve also decided that I’m going to co organize with [jgmac1106] for the new haven event as well
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[tantek] tmiller++ awesome!!!
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Loqi tmiller has 5 karma in this channel over the last year (6 in all channels)
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[tantek] [tmiller] start with reviewing /IndieWebCamp_Organizing and see how much of that makes sense to you, what questions it raises etc.
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[tmiller] Okay great and should I raise questions here or in organizers chat ?
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[tantek] preferably here, unless it's something sensitive or potentially something that someone would be hurt by
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[chrisaldrich] Good morning IndieWeb. Any messages Loqi?
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[chrisaldrich] It seems like we once had a page for "dark patterns" as example for things not to do in design. I'm not seeing it now or has it moved somewhere?
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[chrisaldrich] https://darkpatterns.org/ has some interesting examples...
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[kevinmarks] we have anti patterns
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@PurpleSuede22 Listening to @artofmanliness podcast with Cal Newport (who I LOVE), and just came across https://indieweb.org/. @_CryptoCurator @FiboSwanny I feel like this is a crowd that #crypto peeps need to align with! (twitter.com/_/status/1093598072104517632)
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petermolnar ug
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petermolnar h
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petermolnar can we let them know we welcome anyone interested in cryptography?
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petermolnar but in some way that it's obvious we mean _only_ cryptography, and not cryptocurrencies
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boffosocko.com edited /selfdogfood (+813) "/* Brainstorming */ Pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" (view diff)
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[chrisaldrich] Thanks kevinmarks, I'd seen that and it's somewhat related, but I thought there was something more explicit...
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[chrisaldrich] petermolnar++ for that sentiment...
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Loqi petermolnar has 2 karma in this channel over the last year (20 in all channels)
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tantek.com created /open_washing (+25) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /openwash (+25) "r" (view diff)
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[tantek] [chrisaldrich], I used to like that "bootstraps" phrase and yet it has been pointed out that it's a very privileged viewpoint, and often used as a libertarian dogwhistle, not something I would want to propagate or reinforce. I'll add this concern to the page as well, but just wanted to give you a heads-up first
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[tantek] <!here> could folks please review https://indieweb.org/openwashing for bias / unintended harshness? From what I can tell I'm effectively the sole author (many things added via Loqi) despite working hard to provide citations for the critical statements therein, I'd like to folks to add more citations, or (citation needed) assertions where there is reason for doubt.
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[chrisaldrich] I hadn't been aware of the libertarian dogwhistle portion, though I could image it being appropriated as such. Most contexts I've seen it appear in have been in more completely abject and un-privileged settings.
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[chrisaldrich] tantek++ for openwashing as a concept...
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Loqi tantek has 26 karma in this channel over the last year (89 in all channels)
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[chrisaldrich] I feel like AMP as a protocol falls under that aegis, but I'll have to come up with some concrete criticisms.
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[tantek] And wow I didn't even cite myself re: AMP as openwashing
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[tantek] openwashing << http://tantek.com/2017/303/t3/amp-openwashing-like-schema (tweet: https://twitter.com/t/status/925348152743481344)
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@t .@beep https://ethanmarcotte.com/wrote/seven-into-seven/ & @adactio https://adactio.com/journal/13035 I.e. #AMP is #openwashing not #openweb, ... http://tantek.com/t4r93 (twitter.com/_/status/925348152743481344)
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Loqi ok, I added "http://tantek.com/2017/303/t3/amp-openwashing-like-schema (tweet: https://twitter.com/t/status/925348152743481344)" to the "See Also" section of /openwashing https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=56384&oldid=54814
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Loqi [Tantek Çelik] .@beep https://ethanmarcotte.com/wrote/seven-into-seven/ & @adactio https://adactio.com/journal/13035 I.e. #AMP is #openwashing not #openweb, similar to #schema before it. It has appearances or aspects of being open (e.g. with defensive statements l...
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[tantek] goodness sakes once I started to dig I found a lot of problems with bootstraps
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[tantek] enough to call into question the entire framing and use of "bootstrapping" itself as a phrase!
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tantek.com edited /selfdogfood (+1504) "/* Pull yourself up by your own bootstraps */ no. statement of privilege and conservative dogwhistle to direct hate at the poor" (view diff)
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[tantek] [chrisaldrich] plenty of reading for how problematic bootstraps as a phrase is: https://indieweb.org/selfdogfood#Pull_yourself_up_by_your_own_bootstraps
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[tantek] and now I'm surprised its wikipedia article lacks a criticism section
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[tantek] might be worth a blog post, now I want to stop using "bootstrapping" as a (implied positive) framing
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[tantek] since that phrase is its origin
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[chrisaldrich] It's interesting how phrases used by the poor and underprivileged seem to be co-opted by the privileged. Almost as if they're actively poisoning the (proverbial and literal) well to prevent the underprivileged from pulling themselves up by the bootstraps.... Ugh...
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gRegorLove So the more I think about it, why do we need a metaphor for "use your own creations and depend on on them yourself"?
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Loqi gRegorLove: Zegnat left you a message 11 hours, 44 minutes ago: if you have any opinions about Jitsi to add after last night: https://indieweb.org/Virtual_HWC#Jitsi_Meet
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[tantek] gRegorlove: shorthands clarify & reinforce principles, and help advocacy
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gRegorLove "use what you create" seems a reasonable, non-metaphor shorthand
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[tantek] it's more abstract
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[tantek] but add it to /selfdogfood#Brainstorming !
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[tantek] it's certainly better than a bunch of the other alternatives there
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[tantek] [jgmac1106] in case you have opinions about this, another opportunity to improve Wikipedia on this subject (of "bootstrapping") https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Bootstrapping#Needs_Criticism_section_for_better_NPOV
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[jgmac1106] as a psychometrician it has always made me laugh
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[jgmac1106] might as monte carlo my own domain
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[chrisaldrich] Wow Tantek, that's a lot of Bootstrapping documentation! How did I miss it all? And here I was thinking that Twitter using the phrase for their Bootstrap product would be the despoiling negative example....
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Loqi misses it all too
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[tantek] doing this researched has convinced me I need to find a way to drop usage of the term "bootstrapping"
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[tantek] dangit as if I didn't have enough of a queue of half-written blog posts
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gregorlove.com edited /selfdogfood (+332) "/* Brainstorming */ === use what you create / no metaphor ===" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /selfdogfood (+255) "use what you create, note lack of metaphor advantage explicitly (not just heading), +1" (view diff)
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benwerd On bootstrapping: it is usually referred to in software in the context of going without investment $$$. I strongly agree that a different phrase should be found, and it's no surprise to me that the investment community used a phrase strongly associated with libertarianism.
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@cathieleblanc ↩️ @jgmac1106 @actualham @KenBauer @cogdog @dancohen @wiobyrne @readwriting @anna_phd @ncte @indiewebcamp Definitely! (twitter.com/_/status/1093632332857331712)
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[tantek] I like the idea of going without VC investment. I want a different shorthand for that.
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werd.io profile benwerd edited /selfdogfood (+468) "/* Pull yourself up by your own bootstraps */" (view diff)
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[jgmac1106] tantek I call it real business\
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werd.io profile benwerd edited /selfdogfood (+249) "/* Brainstorming */" (view diff)
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benwerd I mean, I think VC businesses are businesses too. But their customers are more investors than they are the actual users. Whereas revenue-bound businesses grow based on income, and it's incumbent on them to actually be aligned with their users. If most VCs accepted revenue shares as returns, that dynamic would be totally undermined and it would be so much less harmful.
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werd.io profile benwerd edited /selfdogfood (+259) "/* drinking our own champagne */" (view diff)
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benwerd On this note: https://medium.com/@shl/reflecting-on-my-failure-to-build-a-billion-dollar-company-b0c31d7db0e7
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benwerd Seems like the way to avoid feeling like not building a billion dollar company is a failure is to not try and build a billion dollar company
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[tantek] Right? 😂
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jacky lolol
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gRegorLove going without VC investment? "small business"? heh
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[kevinmarks] The "investor story time" business model is fading.
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benwerd small business and startup are different in that the latter hasn't figured out what it is yet, and is still in rapid exploration mode
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benwerd but I've got to tell you, I'm *so* in favor of small businesses at this point
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jacky same
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benwerd and "lifestyle businesses", which is always used in a derogatory way, but you know? I like the idea of owning something that maintains a nice lifestyle for me
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[jgmac1106] benwerd hoping OATV outperforms with indie.vc
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[jgmac1106] Which is where I stole "real business" tagline... Great point on investors as customers
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[jgmac1106] Going to chat for more if folks still talking
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