#meta 2019-05-20

2019-05-20 UTC
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aaronparecki.com edited /2019 (-39) "/* Nearby Events */" (view diff)
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aaronpk Anyone interested in an IndieWebCamp bridge tour bike ride Friday morning? We have rental bikes here and I can get coupon codes for them, and Friday morning is "breakfast on the bridges" where people set up free food on all the bridges in Portland
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aaronpk anomalily is one of the volunteers on one of the bridges so unfortunately she can't lead the tour, but you'll be able to say hi at her bridge!
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GWG I am afraid of bikes
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GWG I've never been able to get over what happened just after the last time I was on one. But that's another story.
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GWG One of these days I would like to tour Portland though
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[Rose] I plan to document the organisers box, and buy some labels for it.
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[Rose] Is there a particular page this should go on?
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aaronpk What is organizing?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "organizing" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "organizing is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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aaronpk what is organizer?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "organizer" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "organizer is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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aaronpk What is organizers
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Loqi Organizers Meetups (and Organizers Summits) are half-day events held before IndieWeb Summits, and often quarterly before IndieWebCamps, for everyone who has co-organized an IndieWebCamp or organized Homebrew Website Club meetups in the past two years https://indieweb.org/Organizers
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aaronpk hmm
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aaronpk https://indieweb.org/IndieWebCamp_Organizing
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aaronpk That's the one
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[frank] I will also add a page with some learnings and thoughts from organizing an IWC. Later tonight, after work and the final Game of Thrones episode
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jonnybarnes.uk edited /Posts_about_the_IndieWeb (+113) "/* 2019 */ Add archive URL for “An Alternative to the Corporate Web”" (view diff)
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[frank] Hmm... I'd love a feed specific for https://indieweb.org/Posts_about_the_IndieWeb with new articles popping up
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[Rose] I bet if we apply to mark up we could make that
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Zegnat https://news.indieweb.org/ ?
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Zegnat Maybe Rose, though I seem to recall something about every wiki page being an h-entry by default and not sure how the nested feed would work..?
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sknebel Afaik we have overrides for that already for h-events, check the custom plugins repo?
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jgregorymcverry.com edited /Kirby (-61) "/* Features */ updating with IndieAuth plugin" (view diff)
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Zegnat Ugh, that documentation does not describe IndieAuth correctly.
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Zegnat Also, not a plugin?
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paulrobertlloyd Thanks for considering my feedback on the inclusivity statement [jgmac1106]; I think including reference to the climate crisis and steps to mitigate the community’s impact is a fantastic start!
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paulrobertlloyd I think I’m going to add a not to the Brighton event page to reference that statement.
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paulrobertlloyd *note
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paulrobertlloyd.com edited /2019/Brighton (+649) "/* Travel and Lodging */ Demote air travel, and include travel instructions from St. Pancras International" (view diff)
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[calumryan] Maybe say if there’s parking for bikes at the venue too. Is it possible cycle to IndieWebCamp Brighton?
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sebsel Zegnat: it was a project of a Kirby core member a few years ago at IWC Düsseldorf
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sebsel that guide, that is.
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paulrobertlloyd.com edited /2019/Brighton (+61) "/* Trains */ Add TfL Rail as travel option from LHR to London Paddington" (view diff)
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jgmac1106 oops you are correct
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jgmac1106 I thought I grabbed from the plugin page as I was bookmarking stuff
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jgmac1106 will fix
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petermolnar oh, 2019 Brigthon is for sure now? \o/
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petermolnar.net edited /2019/Brighton (+18) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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petermolnar.net edited /2019/Brighton (+110) "/* Inbox */" (view diff)
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[jgmac1106] Zegnat looking for the repo for the documentation and will try to fix the description
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grant.codes edited /Homebrew_Website_Club (+136) "/* More cities with interest */ Add Madrid" (view diff)
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www.zylstra.org blog edited /Planning (+188) "/* Berlin2 */" (view diff)
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[Zegnat] [calumryan] I love the idea of documenting bike-ability. We had several people bike to the Utrecht IWC!
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[calumryan] It’s quite safe to cycle along the Brighton seafront to the IWC venue and from what I remember there’s some bike parking inside
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calumryan.com edited /2019/Brighton (+419) "/* Travel and Lodging */ Cycling" (view diff)
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[Rose] One thing to note: IWC Brighton is in October, which may not be the nicest weather to bike in 🙃
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sknebel tries to remember when the last Brighton IWC was.
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sknebel (as in, what month. Was quite nice)
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[Rose] 2016, June if I remember what adactio said correctly.
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sknebel : 2016-09-24 10:00 to 2016-09-25
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[tantek] busy weekend here
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[tantek] !tell [jgmac1106] I'm curious why you thought climate related statements were relevant for the /inclusivity statement — have you seen (can you cite) any other examples of inclusivity statements that have included climate related information? Trying to understand your reasoning here (my fear is that it has very little to do with the goals of /inclusivity, and by including it, you are diluting the actual goals of /inclusivity)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[tantek] !tell [Paul_Robert Lloyd] feel free to add climate related concerns to a new issue/topic on /Organizers and it'll likely get discussed by the folks who run IndieWebCamps at the next Organizers Meetup (in terms of whether it's something to officially adopt or not and how for IndieWebCamps moving forward)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[tantek] !tell [jgmac1106] I'm going to move the content you added to the draft inclusivity statement to a Brainstorming section so we can iterate on it there, including noting possible issues.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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sebsel what is inclusivity?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "inclusivity" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "inclusivity is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[tantek] inclusivity is /inclusivity_statement
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Loqi ok
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loqi.me created /inclusivity (+34) "prompted by sebsel and redirect added by [tantek]" (view diff)
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[tantek] !tell [jgmac1106] I looked through the rest of the points you added to the /inclusivity draft, and though I agree in principle with many/most of the, I will once again point out that none of those were points you were able to uphold when you yourself have co-organized IndieWebCamps (NYC, New Haven), and thus it's quite inappropriate for you to ask other organizers to do work that you yourself were unable to. Does this require a longer discussi
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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sknebel I feel like a checklist of "these are things you should consider for your event, and document for your event" would be the more useful resource for such reasons
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[tantek] and even then only if you yourself as an organizer have done them
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mxb.at edited /Eleventy (+31) "add Max Böck as 11ty user" (view diff)
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[tantek] otherwise it becomes a laundry list of things too burdensome to ask a volunteer organizer to do, and we get fewer organizers as a result.
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tantek.com created /organizer (+24) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /inclusivity_statement (+1254) "move a bunch of suggestions from jgmac1106 into the brainstorming section, lots of asks for volunteer organizers that it's inappropriate to make it look like requirements without discussion (and without doing them yourself as a co-organizer), clarify goal" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /inclusivity_statement (+326) "move a few more aspirational aspects to brainstorming, until we've actually got real examples plus overall organizer consensus, revert alcohol consumption expectation to previous heads-up rather than vague/ambiguous approval" (view diff)
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[calumryan] [Rose] fingers crossed the weather in Brighton for October is reasonably settled for cycling. Warmer and dryer thanks to/not thanks to climate change.
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www.svenknebel.de edited /Main_Page (-476) "/* IndieWebCamp */ remove past - if any of the planned ones are secure enough to add here, please do!" (view diff)
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[tantek] sknebel - is Kaja no longer updating those??
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sknebel Kaja never did IWCs
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[tantek] a-ha
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[tantek] what is Kaja
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Loqi Kaja is a bot run by Sven Knebel https://indieweb.org/Kaja
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[tantek] well that's not useful in terms of relation to IndieWeb
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[tantek] per https://indieweb.org/wikifying#Definitions_include_indieweb_relevance
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www.svenknebel.de created /events/2019-05-27-virtual-homebrew-website-club (+1680) "create page" (view diff)
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[jgmac1106] @tantel yes figure it is a draft until organizers. I was just trying to fold in suggestions for others
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[jgmac1106] @tantek
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www.svenknebel.de edited /Events (+507) "/* May */ add vhwc 05-27" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net (+241) "add some indieweb relevance to the dfn" (view diff)
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[tantek] [jgmac1106] there's aspects of a draft that are stable, and then there's wild or otherwise good ideas to consider - those are very different
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[tantek] there are also practices that have been customary (but not documented yet), and aspirational practices
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[tantek] mixing those is not helpful
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www.svenknebel.de edited /Template:Homebrew_Website_Club (+62) "add vhwc 05-27" (view diff)
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sknebel thx
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[tantek] what is Kaja?
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Loqi Kaja is a bot run by Sven Knebel https://indieweb.org/Kaja
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[tantek] ugh wat
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[jgmac1106] Cool. Will check out your improvements later driving now we'll passenger... But can't read in cars
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tantek.com edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net (-45) "remove DRY violating "summary" from infobox. code that needs it should get it from existing dfn" (view diff)
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[tantek] what is Kaja
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Loqi https://indieweb.org/Kaja
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[tantek] wow ok
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tantek.com edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net (-81) "Kaja is not a person. infobox--" (view diff)
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[tantek] what is Kaja
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Loqi https://indieweb.org/Kaja
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tantek.com edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net (+31) "explicit p-summary because I have a feeling Loqi is getting tripped up by clear text mentions of "h-event"" (view diff)
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[tantek] what is Kaja
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Loqi https://indieweb.org/Kaja
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[tantek] ok I give up - that should "just" work.
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[tantek] Loqi << bug: fails to pick up dfn from [[Kaja]] in response to "What is Kaja"
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Loqi ok, I added "bug: fails to pick up dfn from [[Kaja]] in response to "What is Kaja"" to the "See Also" section of /Loqi https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=61532&oldid=61345
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[Zegnat] Might work but still cached by loqi and queried to quickly after edit?
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[Zegnat] !mf2 https://indieweb.org/Kaja
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Kaja https://php.microformats.io/?url=https%3A%2F%2Findieweb.org%2FKaja
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[Zegnat] Hmm, something definitely wrong. No more gentry
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[Zegnat] *h-entry
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[tantek] speaking of h-entry, https://chat.indieweb.org/meta/2019-05-20/1558341051171500
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Loqi [[frank]] Hmm... I'd love a feed specific for https://indieweb.org/Posts_about_the_IndieWeb with new articles popping up
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[tantek] can we make that happen with a template that generates an h-entry for every item there automatically?
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[tantek] and put them all in an h-feed?
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[tantek] that should be enough for an Indie reader to follow it
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tantek.com edited /MediaWiki:Sidebar (-33) "next camp is summit!" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /next-iwc (-8) "next camp is summit!" (view diff)
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[Zegnat] I think that would work, if the h-feed gets picked up by readers. If it ends up within an h-entry if the page it may not. Needs testing.
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[tantek] worth trying
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[tantek] looks like just HWC Brighton this week for /events. last call for any others
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gRegorLove Re: https://chat.indieweb.org/meta/2019-05-20#t1558316672064500 that sounds fun, though Organizers meetup is that morning I think?
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Loqi [aaronpk] Anyone interested in an IndieWebCamp bridge tour bike ride Friday morning? We have rental bikes here and I can get coupon codes for them, and Friday morning is "breakfast on the bridges" where people set up free food on all the bridges in Portland
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gRegorLove [tantek], If we use /Template:citation it generates h-cite
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gRegorLove So a wrapping h-feed might be all that's needed?
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[tantek] readers do not pick up h-cite
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[tantek] and wrapping them in an h-feed will not do anything
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[tantek] so ... I'm confused by what you suggest / expect
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[tantek] the items on Posts About seem like bookmark posts to me
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gRegorLove I didn't know if readers would pick up h-cites or not
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[tantek] I would assume code is unimplemented unless you know it is
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gRegorLove Haven't tested with Monocle/Aperture, but I seem to recall Woodwind subscribed to my feed of h-events before
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sknebel xray considers h-cites, so aperture probably does. granary will convert a feed of h-cites to e.g. an Atom feed.
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tantek.com created /events/2019-05-23-homebrew-website-club (+3124) "copy from 2019-05-09, update topics" (view diff)
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gRegorLove Trying it out currently (with the h-event feed)
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gRegorLove xray parses it
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tantek.com edited /Template:Homebrew_Website_Club (+54) "HWC Brighton 2019-05-23" (view diff)
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kaja.sknebel.net edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net/upcoming-hwcs (+624) "update from /Events" (view diff)
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[tantek] Kaja++
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Loqi Kaja has 5 karma in this channel over the last year (9 in all channels)
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tantek.com edited /Events (-27) "move some past May events to recent" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2019/Brighton (+143) "move Paul's non-organizer promise about remote participation fidelity/expectations to Inbox for organizers to consider" (view diff)
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[tantek] !tell [Paul_Robert Lloyd] while I appreciate the optimism, the statement you added to IWC Brighton about remote participation supposed equality and two-way comms is not something that you can claim (unless you're volunteering and promising to do all the work to set it up, and maintain it), so I've moved it to the Inbox for organizers to consider https://indieweb.org/2019/Brighton#Inbox
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[tantek] kind not sure how folks are getting the idea that just by claiming something, that it magically happens
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[tantek] OTOH if folks want to volunteer to make things happen, great!
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sebsel [tantek]: according to his site, he works at Clearleft, so he could be one of the organizers?
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[tantek] he hasn't worked at Clearleft in ages
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sebsel but I do appreciate your focus on "do and show the work" instead of "tell how it should be", that feels very core IndieWeb to me
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[tantek] yeah, we need to somehow capture that more broadly in /principles
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[tantek] so we can point to it when people start demanding stuff as if they're entitled to it
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sebsel could we broaden principle 6 (Open source) for that? It feels very developer focussed to have 'open source' in there, while it could be broadened to 'show your work'
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sebsel or something along those lines
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[tantek] seems more like "cook what you need"
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sebsel it's a bit in 4 (selfdogfooding) already
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[tantek] open source is more about sharing what you create openly so others can built upon it
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[tantek] it's two parts: 1. create what you need, 2. use what you create
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[tantek] selfdogfood is the latter
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[tantek] the problem of demands is more of the former
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rosemaryorchard.com edited /2019/Brighton (+10) "/* To-do */ Added self to remote setup helpers." (view diff)
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seblog.nl edited /2019/Brighton (+13) "added myself as interested" (view diff)
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sebsel yes, those two parts are in principles 3 en 4 then. it's already in there, somewhere
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[tantek] is there a way to improve those principles so we can use them in such "meta" ways (e.g. organizing / running IndieWebCamps) beyond the work on our own websites?
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[tonz] a friend of mine often articulates how he feels “an obligation to explain” what you did and how you did it. Found that useful in guiding e.g. my blogging, whenever I create something or solved an issue, to blog about how I fixed it. As I often rely on hunting down clues by reading people’s postings on those same issues and trying their attempts at solutions. I like the phrase ‘obligation to explain’ (not in the mansplaining sense obvio
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[tonz] steering, e.g. “civic responsibility to explain”
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[Rose] I am always a fan of explanations, and I like the express "civic responsibility to explain"
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[jgmac1106] I use the metaphor of Alan Levine's "Backstage Blog" that is what Quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com was originally a replacement for my backstage Tumblr throwingthingswhilewriting
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[jgmac1106] still there: https://writingwhilethrowing.tumblr.com/
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[tantek] [tonz] I think the US/English equivalent of that "obligation to explain" is "show your work" or "show your steps" often said in the context of a "proof", e.g. mathematical
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[tantek] what is remote participation
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Loqi remote participation refers to good practices for enabling people to take part in IndieWebCamp events at a different location and collaboration across locations https://indieweb.org/remote_participation
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loqi.me created /posts_about_the (+37) "prompted by [tantek] and redirect added by [tantek]" (view diff)
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johanbove.info edited /Known (+224) "Added Known CMS users" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Posts_about_the_IndieWeb (+88) "add minimal h-feed to demonstrate how it could be used as a container of h-cite items" (view diff)
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diggingthedigital.com edited /Posts_about_the_IndieWeb (+168) "/* Added an earlier article about the Indieweb */" (view diff)
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aaronpk Darius booked mozpdx for homebrew website club before Summit!
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chrisaldrich What is influencer?
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Loqi An influencer is a person with a large number of followers, typically on social media silo profiles, often with their own independent blog, who also receives a lot of responses on their posts, that brands sometimes seek out, and other times themselves seek out brands, to do deals for goods and/or services in exchange for posts https://indieweb.org/influencer
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chrisaldrich influencer << https://techcrunch.com/2019/05/20/instagram-influencer-celebrity-accounts-scraped/
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Loqi ok, I added "https://techcrunch.com/2019/05/20/instagram-influencer-celebrity-accounts-scraped/" to the "See Also" section of /influencer https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=61548&oldid=60149
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chrisaldrich instagram << https://techcrunch.com/2019/05/20/instagram-influencer-celebrity-accounts-scraped/
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Loqi ok, I added "https://techcrunch.com/2019/05/20/instagram-influencer-celebrity-accounts-scraped/" to the "See Also" section of /Instagram https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=61549&oldid=59933
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chrisaldrich Facebook << https://theintercept.com/2019/05/20/facebook-data-phone-carriers-ads-credit-score/
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Loqi ok, I added "https://theintercept.com/2019/05/20/facebook-data-phone-carriers-ads-credit-score/" to the "See Also" section of /Facebook https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=61550&oldid=61419
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boffosocko.com edited /2019/Brighton (+64) "Link to IndieWebCamps/Attendance#Technology" (view diff)