#meta 2019-12-03

2019-12-03 UTC
[tantek] joined the channel
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[tantek] !tell gRegorLove updated indiewebifyme PR looks great. just reviewed and approved. feel free to merge etc. hopefully that auto-deploys 🙂
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi [github] Successfully deployed indieweb/indiewebify-me to https://indiewebify.me
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gRegorLove Was about to say 🤞 I think it does, but there's our answer!
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Loqi gRegorLove: [tantek] left you a message 1 minute ago: updated indiewebifyme PR looks great. just reviewed and approved. feel free to merge etc. hopefully that auto-deploys 🙂
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[tantek] gRegorLove++ congrats, that definitely counts for IndieWeb Gifts 2019 🙂
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Loqi gRegorLove has 30 karma in this channel over the last year (61 in all channels)
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gRegorLove oh hey, I'm missing a p-note too XD https://indiewebify.me/validate-h-card/?url=https://gregorlove.com
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gRegorLove Will write up a post
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[tantek] Awesome! Then link it in https://indieweb.org/2019-12-indieweb-challenge 🙂
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[tantek] Also h-card checker works great with my site too
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GWG Makes me think I should update mine
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jacky oooh it even shows PGP keys
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[tantek] yeah this is a pretty sweet update
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[tantek] fluffy++ belated and also thanks for the 12/1 IndieWeb Gift jacky++
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Loqi fluffy has 12 karma in this channel over the last year (49 in all channels)
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Loqi jacky has 27 karma in this channel over the last year (93 in all channels)
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[tantek] ok trying that as a naming variant in context in a sentence. like IndieWeb Gift Calendar
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aaronpk That does make it more clear what it is
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[tantek] (instead of Gifting, per JeremyCherfas's concern/pref, and avoiding "Giving" per association with donations)
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[tantek] not sure why we didn't think of it earlier
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jacky I think I might opt to use a little icon of myself with a title= of context for my next calendar event versus writing text
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jacky though that might not be too user friendly and forces a click through
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[tantek] a mini-icon would be great next to the project! then use the alt/title for your name
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[tantek] keep the current minimal project text, and *add* the icon (perhaps right before, left-aligned)
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jacky yup!
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gregorlove.com edited /2019-12-indieweb-challenge (+78) "IndieWebify.Me Updates" (view diff)
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gRegorLove Looks like we used the user templates last year https://indieweb.org/2018-12-indieweb-challenge
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chrisaldrich.net edited /Indieweb_for_Education (+433) "/* Videos */ Jim Groom interview of Ben Werdmuller, Erin Jo Richey et al." (view diff)
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chrisaldrich.net edited /videos_about_the_indieweb (+435) "/* 2014 */ Jim Groom interview with Ben and Erin Jo" (view diff)
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[tantek] !tell aaronpk looks like there's multiple things broken with the Registrants / RSVPs display on https://2019.indieweb.org/sf - adactio and jensimmons aren't showing up, and it's not showing my name or icon either for my Indie RSVP (which has always worked for me before, haven't changed my permalink markup for a while either)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi IndieWebCamp San Francisco
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tantek.com edited /2019-12-indieweb-challenge (+1103) "Brainstorming / Renaming" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2019-12-indieweb-challenge (+546) "/* Renaming */ noting 👍🏼 reacji from Jeremy, and aaronpk, also -1 on current name" (view diff)
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[tantek] captured renaming thoughts so far, please add your own and your opinions of current options! https://indieweb.org/2019-12-indieweb-challenge#Renaming
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tantek.com edited /2019-12-indieweb-challenge (+2) "/* Renaming */ Slack not IRC" (view diff)
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jgregorymcverry.com edited /User:Jgregorymcverry.com (+56) "/* Done */ Added rel and prev links to all notes" (view diff)
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www.jeremycherfas.net edited /100_days (+257) "/* add your 100 days project here */ Added my start date and explanation" (view diff)
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jeremycherfas [tantek]++ for capturing my approval of suggested name; thanks.
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Loqi [tantek] has 56 karma in this channel over the last year (146 in all channels)
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vshabanov.com edited /feed_reader (+211) "Added BazQux Reader, expanded list of shut down readers" (view diff)
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cheuk.dev edited /Planning (+39) "/* London */" (view diff)
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cheuk.dev edited /Planning (-122) "/* London */" (view diff)
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[cheukting_ho] Date of IndieWebCamp confirmed 14 &15 March 2020. Venue: Microsoft Reactor 🎉
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jacky ooh
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jeremycherfas OOOh indeed.
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[cheukting_ho] That's for London in case it causes confusion
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jacky lol it's in the comment bit :)
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[LewisCowles] Where do I sign up?
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[LewisCowles] I’m London Adjacent (Essex)
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GWG I haven't been to London since 2013
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GWG Wait... I changed planes at Heathrow in 2017
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GWG Time to start planning
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GWG My suitcase is nearly packed for IWC SF
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GWG And I wrote a blog post
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gRegorLove [tantek], Is this schedule up to date? If so I can stub out the schedule page. Just let me know how many rooms to include in the grid.
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gRegorLove https://indieweb.org/2019/SF#Schedule
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[tantek] Not sure. Will have to check when back on laptop
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[tantek] Right now can’t tell how many have signed up due to Tito embed and indie rsvp display bugs
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gRegorLove ok
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[cheukting_ho] Just save the date for now, I will set up the ticketing soon.
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gRegorLove I just registered as remote and send an indie rsvp
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gRegorLove I see tantek's RSVP permalink above mine, but the profile info area (photo, name) is empty
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aaronpk [tantek] your author h-card is missing a URL https://tantek.com/2019/336/t2/hosting-indiewebcamp-sf
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Loqi aaronpk: [tantek] left you a message 10 hours, 43 minutes ago: looks like there's multiple things broken with the Registrants / RSVPs display on https://2019.indieweb.org/sf - adactio and jensimmons aren't showing up, and it's not showing my name or icon either for my Indie RSVP (which has always worked for me before, haven't changed my permalink markup for a while either)
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Loqi [Tantek] hosting @IndieWebCamp SF this Saturday & Sunday @MozSF with @DShanske @adactio @dietrich @generativist @JenSimmons will be there! @ZoeSchiffer @pvh @JohnMattDavis @JackyAlcine @AndiGalpern & #AEASF folks: join us! Tickets: https://2019.indieweb.or...
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aaronpk "p-author h-card" shouldn't that be "u-author h-card"? then it also needs a url property too
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GWG [tantek]: Do you have an option for a post Hack Day activity since we are ending so early?
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gregorlove.com created /tik-tok (+20) "r" (view diff)
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beesbuzz.biz edited /2019-12-indieweb-challenge (+78) (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /TikTok (+973) "Criticism section, citation templates" (view diff)
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[tantek] aaronpk, I'm surprised because my markup hasn't changed yet the display result has changed (e.g. from https://2019.indieweb.org/berlin2 to https://2019.indieweb.org/sf )
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Loqi IndieWebCamp Berlin2
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aaronpk are you sure? i don't see your author u-url on the other one either
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tantek.com edited /MediaWiki:Sidebar (+70) "link to ticketing event pages for future IWC / IWS events" (view diff)
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[tantek] yes look at how my RSVP is displayed on those two pages
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aaronpk yes i understand
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aaronpk but i don't see the url property on your berlin rsvp
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aaronpk which leads me to believe something about your markup did in fact change between then and now
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[tantek] there's no consuming need for it for that display.
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[tantek] i.e. the *bugs* are the photo is not showing. nothing to do with url
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aaronpk the photo isn't showing because there is no URL, which is a bug, but only half the problem
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aaronpk it needs your URL in order to match it up with the URL from your tito registration
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[tantek] and my name is not showing, which again, has nothing to do with a url property
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[tantek] my h-entry for the RSVP has a URL, which I entered into tito as well as the indie RSVP URL
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[tantek] presumably that should be sufficient, and that has nothing to do with author h-card url
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aaronpk ok but you're going to cause lots of people issues by not having an author URL
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[tantek] um, this is the first that has shown up anywhere? so ... "lots of people" ?
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[tantek] my point is that author photo and name are *not* dependent on author url, so the consuming could shouldn't make that dependency
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[tantek] that's an error in the consuming code, unnecessary assumption, since all properties are optional
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aaronpk you're welcome to fix it in the consuming code https://github.com/indieweb/2019.indieweb.org/blob/master/templates/show-rsvps.php#L14
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[tantek] consuming code* shouldn't make that dependency
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aaronpk or add the property in your template, either way
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[tantek] I don't understand how / why it broke is my point
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[tantek] no in the balance between publisher and consumer, the consuming code should be fixed first, rather than add an odd non-obvious requirement to publishers
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[tantek] also non-essential - that's the real problem with asking publishers in this case
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aaronpk sure, go ahead! you don't need me to fix it
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[tantek] I'm more curious about why the regression
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[tantek] e.g. from my berlin2 rsvp to my sf rsvp
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[tantek] the display of*
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[tantek] takes a look at the show-rsvps php
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[fluffy] Oh hey I just saw the discussion around the name. Yeah I feel like the current name is a problem and while I like the connotations of “gift” I don’t think calling it a “gift calendar” is huge improvement. But it’s better than the current name.
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[fluffy] er, the Indieweb Challenge name
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[tantek] it's not the size of the improvement, it's whether the improvement addresses the problem noted, which I think it does
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[fluffy] Sure
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[tantek] minor improvements are what good iterative design is all about :)
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[fluffy] That’s fair!
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[fluffy] And it needs to be short and memorable.
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[tantek] thanks fluffy. if you think it's a +1, could you add so here: https://indieweb.org/2019-12-indieweb-challenge#Renaming (and optionally add your opinion on other options too)
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[fluffy] I think my main issue is calling it a “gift calendar”
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[fluffy] like it makes it feel like an advent calendar where things are planned out in advance and scheduled or something
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[tantek] trying to get some level of non-trivial active community consensus before making a change
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[tantek] it *is* like an advent calendar
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aaronpk that is, in fact, the goal :)
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[tantek] nothing about an advent calendar requires planning out in advance
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[tantek] from the perspective of the observer, you don't know what's inside the box for a day until the day when you open it
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[fluffy] ok, having not been raised in a Christian tradition I wasn’t clear on that aspect.
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[tantek] each box is it's own Schroedinger's cat problem as it were
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[tantek] its*
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[fluffy] Schroedinger’s apostrophe’s
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aaronpk i only know of advent calendars from the mainstream consciousness
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[tantek] fluffy, right, I wasn't raised Christian either, so therefore reasonable to not make any assumptions about planning out in advance
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aaronpk ok so I don't store the raw HTML that the event saw, but I do store the xray-parsed page. and it definitely did see an author URL property for the berlin RSVP
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[fluffy] ah ok
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aaronpk however I don't know *how* it found it, since there are multiple ways author information can be found
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[fluffy] anyway when I think “advent calendar” I specifically think of a box where the gifts are planned out over the month and it’s opened up, like from the perspective of the giver, not of the recipient
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[tantek] aaronpk well that's interesting. hmmm
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[fluffy] and gift calendar feels like the same sorta thing?
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[fluffy] but it’s ultimately a nitpick and it’s absolutely an improvement.
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[fluffy] so I’ll try to capture that in a pithy way on the wiki discussion 🙂
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[tantek] fluffy, nothing in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advent_calendar about "planned out over the month" so presumably that's from anecdotal personal experience or secondhand info?
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beesbuzz.biz edited /2019-12-indieweb-challenge (+278) "/* Renaming */" (view diff)
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[tantek] aaronpk, ok I'm going to go diff my code and come back
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[fluffy] Secondhand info, definitely.
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[tantek] fluffy, I'm simply asserting "planned out" is not intrinsic to any actual definition of Advent calendar
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[fluffy] I get that.
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[tantek] s/simply//
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[tantek] (sorry, still trying to reduce my usage of that term, like "just", and "easy")
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[fluffy] My understanding is based on seeing it in popular culture, not from any direct experience.
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[fluffy] Sure, I’m always catching myself saying ‘simply’ and ‘just’ too 🙂
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[fluffy] But also “advent of code” feels like it’s a similar headspace
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[tantek] I'm fairly convinced that using those terms ("simply", "just", "easy") in speech tends to be an implied non-inclusive barrier to new folks in any community
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[fluffy] Not that advent of code necessarily has anything to do with an IndieWeb thing, especially when the word “advent” hasn’t been even proposed in the context.
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[fluffy] Yeah I absolutely agree about that too.
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[tantek] 🙂
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[fluffy] Which is why I’m always catching myself as well 🙂
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[fluffy] Anyway my issue with “Gift Calendar” is more about the “calendar.” Because that’s what implies a schedule.
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aaronparecki.com edited /2019-12-indieweb-challenge (+154) (view diff)
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aaronpk the goal is explicitly to have something each day, so that is kind of good
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beesbuzz.biz edited /2019-12-indieweb-challenge (+2) "/* Renaming */" (view diff)
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aaronpk it certainly *could* be scheduled in advance
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[fluffy] yeah, I just feel like it’s better if it’s not implied, and instead “hey I did this thing today and it benefits IndieWeb” is like a thing that can happen throughout the month
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[fluffy] I love having daily releases throughout the month but at the same time I don’t like the implication that everyone should release one thing every day. That’s a recipe for burnout.
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aaronpk ok something is not coming across here
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aaronpk it's a collective challenge, to fill the calendar with one thing every day
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aaronpk the expectation was never that *everyone* would do one thing every day
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[tantek] right
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[fluffy] okay, just that *someone* does one thing every day?
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[tantek] someone(s) 🙂
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aaronpk hopefully more than one person
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[fluffy] I think that didn’t come across to me not because of the name but because of the phrasing of the page text itself.
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[tantek] these are useful clarifications fluffy, aaronpk
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[fluffy] But also the fact I do Inktober and Novembeat a lot colors my assumptions.
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[fluffy] Since those are both very much framed as *individual* challenges.
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aaronpk i think "to collectively ship something" is the start of where that misunderstanding happens
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[tantek] those are useful contexts to consider, as others do those and similar things like Nanowrimo
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[fluffy] Which is another reason why “IndieWeb Challenge” is a bad name!
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aaronpk "collectively" is kinda ambiguous
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[tantek] yup
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[tantek] yup to both of you
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aaronpk i'm going to take a stab at rewriting the intro
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[tantek] alright I'm going to give it til tomorrow morning for other options/opinions and if nothing better has come up, going to do the rename tomorrow morning PST
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[tantek] assuming no one objects (obviously 🙂 )
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[tantek] and yes aaronpk go for it
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[fluffy] ++tantek ++aaronpk
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[fluffy] good conversation
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[tantek] lol I can't tell if that was a deliberate nerdsnipe for aaronpk to update Loqi or not
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[fluffy] okay is loqi and/or slack lagging or did I heck that formatting up again?
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[tantek] loqi currently only supports postincrement not preincrement
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[tantek] (and decrement)
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[fluffy] ah, my C++ zealotry is showing again 🙂
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[fluffy] tantek++ aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 56 karma in this channel over the last year (199 in all channels)
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Loqi tantek has 57 karma in this channel over the last year (147 in all channels)
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[tantek] fluffy++ you're not wrong 🙂
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Loqi fluffy has 13 karma in this channel over the last year (50 in all channels)
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[fluffy] 20+ years of C++ being my favorite performance-oriented language has left me always micro-optimizing everything 🙂
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[fluffy] ironic that the language isn’t called ++C
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[fluffy] although I guess that would imply that C itself was improved along with it, so
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[fluffy] ANYWAY wow okay this is what it’s like when I have caffeinated coffee, huh
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aaronparecki.com edited /2019-12-indieweb-challenge (-44) "attempt to clear up the definition" (view diff)
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[tantek] aaronpk, hmm, I'm not sure including challenge in the dfn is helpful (I think it may still cause too many misconceptions due to other uses of challenge in these sort of contexts). also one+ 🙂
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[tantek] I'll take a shot at iterating on your iteration
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aaronpk i didn't touch the name
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aaronpk well it's an improvement i think, probably still could be better
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aaronpk i was hoping "group challenge" would sound different enough
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[fluffy] okay so thinking about the scope of what qualifies as an IndieWeb gift has me wondering (per discussion in #indieweb-chat) if simply fixing a minor UX flaw in Authl qualifies. I felt that my Pushl and indieweb.js updates do because they actually solved interop problems with things that are easy/straightforward to use in a greater IndieWeb context, but Authl… not so much
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[tantek] right I meant the addition of "challenge" in the definition text
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[tantek] fluffy, could you add the version number you shipped to the webmention.js ship summary text for yesterday's square in the calendar?
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[fluffy] like Authl *could* be used by anyone with a Python-based publishing stack (which is why it’s separate from Publ) but the thing I’d be fixing is just a minor UX gripe
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[tantek] I think any official release that's a "gift" ought to be explicit about which version it is/was 🙂
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[fluffy] I don’t version my webmention releases 🙂
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[fluffy] I probably should! But it’s just like… stream of quick fixes to a single .js file
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[tantek] that sounds like a minor revision 🙂
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[tantek] also since you're intending consumption / use / deployment by others, I think official github version tagging is a good idea
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[tantek] which requires a version number 😄
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[tantek] (or name, but might as well use a semver at that point)
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[fluffy] that’s fair. wm.js just started out as a thing that I happened to provide in my default Publ templates that people started using outside of it
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[fluffy] which is why I split it off into its own repo
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[fluffy] I think most of the blog posts that refer to it still point to it in the Publ templates, even 😛
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[fluffy] (which stay up-to-date of course, that’s where I’m usually developing it)
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[fluffy] ok sorry this very quickly drifted right back out of #indieweb-meta territory
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tantek.com edited /2019-12-indieweb-challenge (+184) "/* Renaming */ note upcoming rename intent" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /publisher_guide (+31) "prompted by [tantek] and redirect added by [tantek]" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2019-12-indieweb-challenge (+179) "reduce dfn use of challenge, clarify one or more, encouragement to use a personal commitment as a way to come up with ideas also" (view diff)
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[tantek] alright there's that attempt at further iterating on dfn (and a few more tweaks)