#meta 2020-06-09

2020-06-09 UTC
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GWG I'm still on the fence as to whether we need a full page on 2020.indieweb.org, I thought that was what events.indieweb.org was for, but I can if there is that much interest
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aaronpk the 2020.indieweb.org page is to have a nicer page than the wiki for the complete even info like the summary schedule and link to the code of conduct and such. normally this also includes a map, which obviously isn't relevant here
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GWG So, we have...
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GWG Ti.to page
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GWG Event page
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GWG Wiki page
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GWG 2020.indieweb.org page
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GWG Isn't that confusing?
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aaronpk tito is just registration
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GWG I'm not disagreeing....
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aaronpk nobody should be sent that link
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aaronpk 2020 is debatable whether it's useful, we could possibly roll that into events.indieweb.org, but there's a lot of things left to talk about in that case
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GWG aaronpk: Such as?
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aaronpk the wiki is more the day-of stuff, like the schedule grid that changes quickly
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GWG Just curious.
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aaronpk well look at all the things on one of the event pages of 2020.indieweb.org, we'd need to make sure all those use cases are still addressed
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GWG Just curious if we should document it somewhere.
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GWG Since we're discussing it.
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aaronpk there should be some notes here https://indieweb.org/Organizers/event_pages
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aaronpk that needs some cleaning up now that events.indieweb.org exists
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GWG I may document that a bit.
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GWG Only because I think there is an opportunity, even if we don't do it this time.
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GWG aaronpk: Would you consider adding a version of the ti.to import you wrote for 2020.indieweb.org into Meetable?
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aaronpk to show RSVPs? hmm
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GWG I'm considering writing that as an issue.
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aaronpk I'd rather not. however, I could see adding a feature to embed custom JS on an event page
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GWG https://github.com/aaronpk/Meetable/issues/100
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GWG Tried to be broad
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Loqi [dshanske] #100 Offer option to embed external information on registrations when registration is external
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GWG For example, anything from being able to add the number of registered attendees to a full embed.
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GWG Opening issues related to this on Meetable. And will update the other page.
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aaronpk awesome
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GWG https://github.com/aaronpk/Meetable/issues/102
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Loqi [dshanske] #102 Allow for optional schedule URL for multi-session event
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GWG This might help right now.
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GWG If you can't figure out nested events yet...allow an optional link to an external schedule page.
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aaronpk not a bad idea
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GWG I'm just staring at one of the 2020 pages for ideas
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aaronpk GWG: i'm feeling up for a project, i can do a first pass at updating https://indieweb.org/Organizers/event_pages to reflect the current situation
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GWG Okay. I think I covered some of the ideas in the Meetable issues from here as well.
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aaronparecki.com edited /Organizers/event_pages (+17) "move wiki event work to "done" section" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /Organizers/event_pages (-65) "move the rest of the past discussion" (view diff)
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cj.w6k.ca created /User:Cj.w6k.ca (+504) "Created page with "Hello. I'm '''Chris'''. I have a website at https://cj.w6k.ca/ that runs a software I made called WebFoo. It doesn't do very much except let me login to the wiki at IndieWeb...."" (view diff)
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Loqi [[IndieWebCamp]] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=IndieWebCamp&diff=961551450&oldid=prev Tantek: example of an Unconference, already categorized as such
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[tantek] uh that was unexpected. Since when are you watching Wikipedia edits Loqi?!?
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[tantek] oh dear, I'm not getting a response from opensourcebridge.org
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[tantek] aaronpk, do you know who admins the domain / server for Open Source Bridge? Did it get decomissioned or shutdown instead of being kept read-only?
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[snarfed] GWG [chrisaldrich] just fyi i'll have a fresh set of bridgy stats (a la https://snarfed.org/2019-01-02_bridgy-stats-update-4#comment-2731107) soon, happy to do a stats/data section of State of the Indieweb if you all do one at the beginning of IWC West, like they usually do at IWS
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Loqi Ryan Barrett
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[tantek] ooh yay snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 3 karma in this channel over the last year (91 in all channels)
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Loqi does a happy dance!
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GWG [snarfed]: We probably should discuss that. As it isn't the Summit, not sure if we should do State of the Indieweb...but will discuss.
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[tantek] looks like OS Bridge was up as of March: https://web.archive.org/web/20200321013058/http://opensourcebridge.org/
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GWG I don't think we've put in any speakers yet.
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[tantek] GWG, regardless of whether we do a State of the IndieWeb, I think it would be great to have snarfed do a 5-10 min lightning talk on perhaps:
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[tantek] Into Webmentionverse
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GWG I'd love that.
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[tantek] Into the Webmentionverse
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GWG Lightning talks are fun too.
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[tantek] yes a Bridgy stats update is worth its own talk
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GWG [snarfed]: Consider yourself booked?
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Loqi [[IndieWebCamp]] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=IndieWebCamp&diff=961558400&oldid=prev Tantek: cat Recurring events established in 2011
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KartikPrabhu petermolnar: moving here
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Loqi KartikPrabhu: tantek left you a message on 2017-09-16 at 1:18am UTC: any chance of making it over to https://2017.indieweb.org/nyc in two weeks?
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Loqi KartikPrabhu: tantek left you a message on 2017-07-31 at 6:18pm UTC: (and anyone else interested!) possible dates added to IWC NYC 2017 planning, please add yourself and +1/0/-1 for each: https://indieweb.org/Planning#NYC
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KartikPrabhu damn! 3 years ago! :P
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KartikPrabhu petermolnar: if you turn off video/audio by all/most participants then Zoom seems to work reasonably well, though not the best
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KartikPrabhu someone has to manage all the participants which works in a large classroom but might not be the best for IWC
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KartikPrabhu for everyone participating at the same time I have done 20-ish people which has worked out well; again having all browsers, pdfs and other stuff turned off on my laptop
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petermolnar video/audio off for an IWC doesn't sound good to be honest
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KartikPrabhu I agree
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petermolnar a rather sad IWC it would be
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petermolnar [tantek], thoughts?
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KartikPrabhu there is a feature in Zoom where someone can "raise their hand" and the host can grant them video/audio "privileges" for a bit
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KartikPrabhu if people want I can help practice all of this since I have been using Zoom for the past 3 months
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KartikPrabhu if you turn on recording it gets more taxing
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KartikPrabhu or we can try out Google Meet since now it is "open" to everyone
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petermolnar I'm genuinely curious that if everyone was to use, say, ekiga over h323, how would it compare hardware usage wise to webrtc
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KartikPrabhu I don't know what those words mean, apart from webrtc :P
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petermolnar h.323 is an old room conference system protocol; it predates SIP if I understand it correctly. Older "enterprice" conf call systems, cisco, bluejeans, etc support it, and if I understand it correctly, it lack any modern features: it's not p2p, or encrypted - on the bright side it used to run on 10+ year old hardware without glitches.
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petermolnar ekiga is a long forgotten open source vidconf client
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petermolnar zoom, in theory, could do h.323 somehow
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petermolnar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.323
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petermolnar https://www.ekiga.org/
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petermolnar I know these complicate things, but if our vidconf solution doesn't work for more, than a handful of people, it's a problem
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[grantcodes] Ha I think something like that would currently be way more of an issue for most people compared to zoom.
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sknebel In my experience Zoom is good for usual IWC sizes
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petermolnar define usual IWC size, please
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petermolnar did we ever have a full size, virtual only IWC?
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KartikPrabhu I think usual IWC would be 50-60 people
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KartikPrabhu virtual only will most likely have more
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[grantcodes] Yeah I've been on 100+ people ones that have been good - but it that heavily relies on someone controlling it all
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KartikPrabhu [grantcodes]: yeah I have done 200-ish but it does need a "moderator"
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KartikPrabhu it certainly won't be the normal "in-personal" experience
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KartikPrabhu but it is similar to how someone must control who talks instead of evreyone talking at the same time
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KartikPrabhu and if IWC can't do it, then <shrug>
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sknebel was thinking 20-30 people per session. but yes, you need bit more moderation
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KartikPrabhu sknebel: for the sessions we can certainly use the "breakout sessions" feature
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KartikPrabhu and then have everyone in the main room for general discussion
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[KevinMarks] The older video conference things were 320x240 or so
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[KevinMarks] So much less encoding than HD
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[KevinMarks] Also were designed for packet loss with less intra frame dependency
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GWG I would love it if the problem we had was too many attendees
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petermolnar if there are 20+ attendees, all with video feed, the 320x240 is plenty to display a thumbnail sized feed :)
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petermolnar joke aside, 640x480 is more, than enough for simpler communication purposed
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petermolnar *purposes
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[KevinMarks] It would make sense to do that as an audience. Part of it is that zoom has dreadful chat, so we need to encourage the chat to be in the usual place
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[KevinMarks] This piece is a good starting point https://www.ben-evans.com/benedictevans/2020/6/4/solving-online-events
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[KevinMarks] What are the bundle of things that make up an indieWebcamp, and how do we replicate more of them?
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petermolnar zoom doesn't allow to set resolution and/or bandwidth for yourself, does it?
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[KevinMarks] Previously http://epeus.blogspot.com/2006/08/blogher-peer-group-and-stiff-drink.html
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GWG [KevinMarks]: We disabled chat on our accounts
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GWG [KevinMarks]: The replicate is the question I've been asking
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evgenykuznetsov.org edited /chat-names (+108) "add nekr0z" (view diff)
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@schnarfed ↩️ correct. the corollary to your quoteback idea is probably https://indieweb.org/marginalia, ie webmentions to https://indieweb.org/fragmention links, which identify specific points in text. (twitter.com/_/status/1270360011265331200)
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@petermolnar ↩️ There is no requirement like that. You can send a webmention if you have a link to another site anywhere. Also worth bringing up: https://indieweb.org/fragmention https://indieweb.org/Salmention (twitter.com/_/status/1270359361836257282)
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@ChrisAldrich ↩️ Thanks, I'll look into it, but haven't been able to recreate the issue on my end. There is a more HTML-centric solution in webactions, but that isn't widely deployed & would require some work on the user's end to have it [more...] https://boffosocko.com/2020/05/31/making-rss-more-visible-again-with-a-feeds-page-marcus-herrmann/?replytocom=292995#respond https://indieweb.org/webactions (twitter.com/_/status/1270399313248542723)
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jacky ^ this is something I'm still torn up about w.r.t WebActions
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[tantek] curious about that overlap. I don't really associate RSS with anything interactive. will read the thread
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jacky it's a break-out from the conversation
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[tantek] [chrisaldrich]++ spot on on the criticism of the "missing the boat" of /feeds
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Loqi [chrisaldrich] has 10 karma in this channel over the last year (38 in all channels)
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[tantek] I feel like I predicted this at the time: "As good as the /now idea may seem, the fact that it needs to be regularly and manually updated makes it a failure out of the gate. I’ll bet that less than half the /now pages out there have been updated in the last 6 months. I know mine hasn’t."
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[tantek] This is a very good succinct criticism of why directing people from your blog to social media for any "required" functionality is bad: "I might see a one click option for Twitter or Mastodon, but then I’m a mile away from your website and unlikely to see you again in the noise of my Twitter feed which has many other lurking problems."
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[tantek] jacky, [chrisaldrich] my biggest disappointment with these conversations (and the folks who think a /feeds is actually relevant) is that:
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[tantek] social media proved that people don't care about following *feeds*, people care about following *people*.
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jacky true
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jacky the (immediately obvious) solution (to me) around that would be having a reader that can fuse those two worlds a bit
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jacky like the act of "following"/subscribing to someone, be it via Twitter or their site should be indistinguishable
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jacky (warn me if I'm jumping into plumbing too quick)
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[tantek] nah that's good UX thinking
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jacky tbh that's the flow I want in my reader
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jacky the act of searching would first check for their site and if not found, find them on a silo
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[tantek] my challenge is I haven't been able to convince aaronpk that Microsub should be person-centric not feed-centric.
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jacky doesn't think it should be either tbh
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jacky that should be up to the client to handle
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[chrisaldrich] and the sad part is that even though social media allows you to follow people, it just doesn't always give you the content you want from those people in any of the ways you want....
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[tantek] h-card rather than h-feed (or RSS or Atom or JSONFeed etc.) as the starting point
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[chrisaldrich] tantek, then what's the step after the h-card? What would that look like?
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[tantek] [chrisaldrich] of course we can do better than social media
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[chrisaldrich] Oh, we're definitely doing better than social media. Or at least _I've_ got something that's better...
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[chrisaldrich] Some of this may be related to the UI related thread I mentioned yesterday related to news. How does one consume news from friends? What does my personal "newspaper" look like to my friends/family that want to read it? https://web.archive.org/web/20200609020318/https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1270047272940769280.html
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jacky actually yeah unless microsub as a spec has some information about to do subscription to 'people' (how do you even define a person? what makes them different from an organization? do we just lean on h-cards?), adding it to the spec might be clutter
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jacky how does it determine the 'ideal' feed to follow for a person?
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jacky has an idea on how to do the above but it might expose a bit of "plumbing"
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[tantek] yes h-card is good enough
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[tantek] and it handles both people and organizations
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[tantek] start with the simple case. A person has a url and that’s how people name them and follow them. There’s a canonical h-card there
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[tantek] And one or more h-entry elements
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[chrisaldrich] but suppose then I subscribe to or follow you using your h-card... then what?
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[tantek] I’d rather see UX optimized for the simple case than worry up front about complex cases before anything is built!
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[chrisaldrich] How am I seeing or consuming your content?
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[tantek] Already described it above “start with the simple case” and described how you find the h-entry elements to cache and show people
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[tantek] The rest of that problem the existing microsub has solved
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[tantek] Jacky, short answer to “ideal feed” is don’t try to be smart. Use what’s on the page. If there’s more than one h-feed, integrate them all into the “following” of that person, and then let them customize (i.e. mute) later
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[tantek] IG solves this with decent UX. You can mute someone’s posts or stories independently
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[chrisaldrich] Though to me that also feels like you're placing the pointer for the start of the problem a notch earlier in the overall flow.
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[tantek] This isn’t rocket science. There’s enough existing UX to mimic
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[tantek] Don’t understand what you mean by earlier
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[chrisaldrich] In some sense, I may not really be following a particular person, I'm following one of their "personas" represented by one of their feeds. There are mathematicians and physicists I'm following, but I'm not following them so much as a subsection of them related to that topic of interest....
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[tantek] Too specialized to start the design there [chrisaldrich]
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[tantek] That’s the wrong way to do good UX or protocol design
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[tantek] Start with the simplest possible thing that could work, build it, *then* see how it “breaks” instead of imagining the breaking a priori
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[chrisaldrich] I get what you're saying and starting at the simpler case is the better choice. Particularly if someone has a site that's the equivalent of a business card with nothing really to follow.
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[tantek] No one (<1%) cares about something like personas. Don’t start there
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[chrisaldrich] Persona isn't really the right word, it's more akin to publics, but I take your point.
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[tantek] The other key argument I had is the “what if there’s no feed or worries?”
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[tantek] Answer: who cares?
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[tantek] You still follow the h-card of the person and show any updates to it. And if/when any entries or a feed show up on their home page you show those
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[tantek] Premature complexity ruins both UX and standards
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[tantek] Point being, don’t force someone to “pick a feed” just to follow a person or URL
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[tantek] Just let them follow the URL
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[chrisaldrich] And that was roughly the basic design of blogrolls in the beginning wasn't it...
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jacky all of this logic doesn't _need_ to be in the microsub spec tho, no?
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jacky like it can live in a place similar to the ptd spec
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[tantek] it matters what unit of following / subscribing you pick in the plumbing
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[tantek] otherwise you make it too much work for clients
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[tantek] nothing "needs to be in the microsub spec", the whole point was to make it easier to build social reader clients
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jacky gotcha
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[tantek] [chrisaldrich] yeah blogrolls reflected the cultural norm at the time, you are your website, your website is you.
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KartikPrabhu isn't h-feed vs h-card more of plumbing? My ideal UX would be: enter URL of the person's website > reader says "this person posts 1) articles 2) notes 3) photos of cats" > I choose what I want to follow
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KartikPrabhu I don't care how reader does step 2
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KartikPrabhu it could do feed discovery or list homepage h-entries or use JSON-LD/RSS or whatever
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[tantek] Nope skip step two and just provide a unified feed, with options to mute aspects later
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[tantek] Point about h-card is literally how you represent the “thing” that you’re following by entering a URL
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[jgmac1106] I like the UX of the inoreader extension. Though I can assign to a feed. That is what I want. Click on a bookmarklet follow someone, decide what feed to stick them in. One click is enough. Two can organize
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[jgmac1106] Inoreader missing second step still. One button follow works but you need to organize later
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[tantek] What fees to stick them in? That sounds more like microsub channels
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[tantek] feeds*
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[jgmac1106] I rarely come across sites with multiple feeds and 90% are WP... Just that main feed.... But inoreader made a tool that makes up feeds for sites without feeds
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KartikPrabhu [tantek]: sure, skip step two in the first stage is fine. And I agree with use h-card to represent what is followed
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[jgmac1106] But i like following h-cards as an idea... There is no seperating into categories in the inoreader plugin yet. Coming in next release
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KartikPrabhu hmm why is this conversation in meta?
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[jgmac1106] Dunno I hopped on after scrolling back
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jacky KartikPrabhu: it spawned from a link that popped up in here
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KartikPrabhu o ok
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[KevinMarks] Following people
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[KevinMarks] http://epeus.blogspot.com/2004/07/call-off-search.html?m=1#:~:text=The%20great%20thing%20about%20weblogs%20is%20when%20you%20discover%20someone.%20Someone%20who%20makes%20sense%20to%20you,%20or%20someone%20who%20surprises%20you%20with%20a%20viewpoint%20you%20hadn't%20thought%20of.%20Once%20you%20have%20found%20them%20you%20can%20subscribe%20to%20their%20feeds%20and%20see%20how%20they%20can%20keep%20inspiring%20or%20surprising%20you.
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jacky that URL is ridiculous
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[KevinMarks] I'm trying out the new fragmention replacement
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[KevinMarks] It needs this kind of preview http://www.kevinmarks.com/mentionquote.html
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[tantek] Kevinmarks, could you instead develop a Chrome Plugin that converted a fragmention URL into the ugly syntax they're supporting before it hits the browser?
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[tantek] That way we could publish fragmentions and it would "just work" in Chrome via their uglier plumbing
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[KevinMarks] Can you rewrite urls add they're clicked? Sounds like a big attack surface
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aaronpk browser extensions can do almost anything
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aaronpk my coworker wrote an extension that intercepts requests in the address bar before they're visited and can rewrite the URL completely
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