#meta 2021-02-09

2021-02-09 UTC
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[tantek] aaronpk, sknebel, have to disagree "can be used by a user" is absolutely insufficient to consider something not jargon. Everything "can be used by a user" in conversation, whether they understand it or not.
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aaronpk not just "used" but specifically "referred to by"
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[tantek] the big question is whether it's actually "insider language" or is it something that truly about a user-facing feature
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[tantek] ActivityPub is literally "just plumbing"
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aaronpk i said i was on the fence about activitypub
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[tantek] so is, frankly, Webmention
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[tantek] and "fediverse" is used very much as an insidery term
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[tantek] insidery terms are used to divide people into "in the know" and not
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aaronpk webmention is "just" plumbing, except that people now talk about wanting to set up webmentions when they are not actually talking about the plumbing
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[tantek] and that's definitely not user-friendly
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[tantek] aaronpk, and we should correct that usage because that's exactly the mis-statement that happened around "pingbacks"
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[tantek] which turned into crap UI
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jacky I was gonna sayu
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jacky *say
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jacky that I think in order to do that, more abstractions over webmentions as a service -might- help
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[tantek] so if you don't "webmentions" turned into crap UI, you will also help discourage its use as a "user feature" description
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aaronpk i don't think that's the right conclusion to leap to
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[tantek] we shouldn't reinforce user-level talk about "webmentions", we should shift those conversations to *responses*
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aaronpk a better conclusion might be that the specific plumbing feature does not need a name
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[tantek] or at-mentions
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[tantek] there's a natural tendency for folks to hype buzzwords (including jargon) as if it makes them sounds smarter and we must absolutely fight that because it is NOT inclusive at all in conversations
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jacky aaronpk: hm okay
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[tantek] "fediverse" is frankly a nerdy and exclusionist way of looking at "the web"
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[tantek] so yes it deserves to be relegated to -dev where we can have as many deep-nerdy-dive arguments as we want
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aaronpk the larger point here is i think Loqi is being a bit too aggressive about shutting down conversations right now
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[tantek] I think that's more a product of the number of words threshold than the words themselves
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[tantek] two may be too few
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[KevinMarks] maybe some weighting of terms?
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aaronpk given that the jargon detector has only been working for a week (other than looking for microformats), i think it's fair to tune it right now
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jacky you can say the same about the words 'indieweb' or 'webrings', no?
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[tantek] wouldn't mind dialing it up from two to say four
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[tantek] jacky no, IndieWeb was specifically defined as a user-centric term, a quickly relatable shorthand that journalists have quoted from our homepage
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[tantek] webrings are a bit more borderline yes
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aaronpk i might actually want to weight the jargon detector by who is speaking too. like if I start in on a dev conversation i should get jumped on faster than someone brand new to the chat
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[tantek] hey that's sensible
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jacky ooh interesting
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[tantek] aaronpk, as a first order approximation, if you're in /chat-names then you should get a lower threshold
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[tantek] so that brand new folks get more of a "break"
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aaronpk yeah that's an easy first filter
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[tantek] maybe like 2x the "budget" of terms to mention
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[tantek] and I'd say raise it from 2 to at least 3 for folks in /chat-names
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[tantek] thus 6 for "new folks"
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[tantek] is there a way to add a comment as to *why* a term is on the jargon list? I'd really like to capture that so we try to stay consistent
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aaronpk lemme check how it's being parsed
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[tantek] like even just a " - this is here because ..." suffix could be ignored
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aaronpk i think if you do a bullet point nested under the term it'll work
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aaronpk the other thing to tweak is the text that Loqi says. for example maybe there's a way to include the explanation of why a term is considered jargon in the message
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[tantek] whoa that sounds like way more copy-editing work
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[tantek] I mean first that means you have to write a cogent explanation
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[tantek] Second you should copy edit it to put it in Loqi's "voice" (Loqi definitely has a particular "voice")
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[tantek] just now seeing the convo with sl007
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jacky I couldn't tell if that was legit tbh
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[tantek] do we need a separate list of "off topic" words/phrases to direct folks to chat like "alien" or "time traveler" 😛
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[tantek] jacky, fwiw i believe sl007
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jacky haha perhpas
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jacky hm yeah better probably to assume so
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[tantek] I mean I guess it's a good sign of "popularity" that we're seeing the time traveler stuff?
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[tantek] hmm I have an idea
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tantek.com edited /archive (+9) "slip in a keyword" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /historical_archive (+20) "prompted by [tantek] and redirect added by [tantek]" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /temporal_navigation (-22) "better redirect" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /time_travel (+20) "prompted by [tantek] and redirect added by [tantek]" (view diff)
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[tantek] jeremycherfas++ belated thanks for those excellent copy-edits to /life_happens. Appreciated!
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Loqi jeremycherfas has 9 karma in this channel over the last year (38 in all channels)
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[tantek] (and also a great reminder of how (at least for me) the creative "braindump a bunch of content (or code) to fill something out / get something out there" activity is a very different "mental mode" than the review, see, and fix errors mode)
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jacky.wtf edited /Secure_Scuttlebutt (+124) "add link to planetary client" (view diff)
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@fluffy New post: Notes: Why I Still Use RSS https://beesbuzz.biz/blog/chatter/9215-Why-I-Still-Use-RSS #IndieWeb #RSS #Internet Also don’t forget that most podcast directories are RSS-based. (twitter.com/_/status/1359001198674792449)
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[chrisaldrich] Nitter << https://github.com/zedeus/nitter/wiki/Instances
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Loqi ok, I added "https://github.com/zedeus/nitter/wiki/Instances" to the "See Also" section of /Nitter https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=74538&oldid=72217
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@damndirty I am only halfway through and I needed to stop and tweet this: Do yourselves a favour and watch "Why The IndieWeb?" by @heydonworks: https://briefs.video/videos/why-the-indieweb/ I love everything about these 'webbed briefs'! (twitter.com/_/status/1359055849419911169)
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@Xaviju Slowclap once again https://briefs.video/videos/why-the-indieweb/ (twitter.com/_/status/1359097011182702592)
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@johanbove This is a really to the point short roundup of why Indieweb rocks - the beginning is a bit too _boring_ with many pictures of tunnels for some reason - but otherwise very ominous and cool graphics stolen from other sites! Do Decentralization next pleaseâ€Ļ https://social.johanbove.info/2021/02/09/this-is-a-really-to-the-point (twitter.com/_/status/1359137907894853632)
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@MarkedDigitally Absolutely bonkers O_O @heydonworks â€Ļ A must see (like always) if you are a creative on the web these days https://briefs.video/videos/why-the-indieweb/ (twitter.com/_/status/1359162588307808257)
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@_dgoldsmith I've sat on this for far too long, so, here goes nothing. A critique, of sorts, of the laudable #indieweb movement, and why I won't be spending any more of my time on it. https://lipu.dgold.eu/praxis-indieweb.html (twitter.com/_/status/1359194332088176649)
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aaronpk that looks familiar
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petermolnar yeah. gopher://ascraeus.org/0/phlog/041.txt
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petermolnar we had discussions around it
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aaronpk aha
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petermolnar if you want to search for it in the archives, the link was https://gopher.floodgap.com/gopher/gw?ascraeus.org/0/phlog/041.txt
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sebsel there are a lot valid points in it.
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sebsel but I wonder if it's fair to call IndieWeb a 'liberation movement'.
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aaronpk i do disagree with his whole stance on POSSE
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sebsel the legal aspect he's pointing out? that might be a thing. But I do agree: the point that, if a silo goes away, it was all for nothing... that's just not valid.
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sebsel "If a service goes away, [...] then the “exposure” which was previously granted withers and dies."
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sebsel Yes, but exposure is a fleeting thing anyway.
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aaronpk granting a site a license to your content, even if it's perpetual and non-revokable, is still not the same as not owning your data
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aaronpk i do agree with his criticisms of /generations and that's why i want to actually get rid of that page
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sebsel yes, giving away the license does not mean you don't have that license after that indeed. It's not zero-sum like that.
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sebsel or we can add a banner to /generations stating 'this is an old view'? like the ones on /IndieAuth?
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sebsel we can at least communicate that there is no consensus about it
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aaronpk last time i suggested that tantek said no because then all pages would need a banner 😂
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sebsel I agree with that but this one needs it the most.
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sebsel add "This page, like all pages, [...]" :P
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aaronpk https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2021-01-22#t1611340846810600
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sebsel Okay, so, what would be the purpose of the alternative?
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sebsel Are we looking for an alternative view of how to expand the IndieWeb?
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aaronpk i suppose we would need to define the purpose of the /generations page in the first place
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sebsel nice, I've become that Gen1 guy, whereas I was a Gen2 guy the first time I read the page in 2015.
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sebsel Another criticism against the model :D
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sebsel So to quote the wiki: "The concept of a Generation allows us to group the experience of a group into a cluster that we can build tools for and create language to encourage growth."
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sebsel In that way, we also have work on Personas: https://indieweb.org/personas
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sebsel I don't know if that's better.
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petermolnar this is really not the first time we want to do something about /generations, but soon [tantek] will show up, and tell us about the three column idea that still didn't present itself.
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petermolnar so the question is: should the generations page stay because it's better, than nothing, or should it go, because it makes more harm, than good, in it's current form, regardless a replacement?
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sebsel I think we need to start at the question of what the goal is of the page and work from there.
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sebsel Happy to go for a walk to wait until [tantek] appears for thoughts :)
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[tantek] lol
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[tantek] I think it's ok to place some sort of "warning" at the top of /generations like we have on *some* microformats wiki pages
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[jeremycherfas] T t t talking ‘bout my g g g generation, without intended any slur on any speech impediment or hesitancy of any kind.
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sebsel okay, so I think that warning should say something about that purpose too then.
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sebsel because the harm is mostly that people misinterpret the page?
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sebsel (thinking out loud here)
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[tantek] sebsel, yes we should edit to reduce misinterpretations
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sebsel okay then we only need to figure out the 'right' interpretation (:
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[tantek] that's kinda what I've been trying to say 🙂
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sebsel okay, so it seems like dgold's main criticism is "I know computers but I am not this guy described here"
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sebsel so one of the pointers could be: you don't have to fit this description?
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sebsel but he goes on to stating that there aren't really tutorials on how to do stuff, that most of the IndieWeb is just Gen1 creating things for themselves. (if I may summarize it like that)
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[tantek] that's a reasonable criticism
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sebsel in that way I somewhat agree with him: one can also see /generations as "that is not my task" for Gen1.
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sebsel Yea, I think it's reasonable.
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sebsel but yes that goes beyond the point of the /generations page then.
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seblog.nl edited /generations (+405) "add stub for warning" (view diff)
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sebsel if a native speaker can check my wording that would be nice. I feel like something is off but I can't seem to find the problem :)
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[KevinMarks] the gist of is argument against POSSE is rather undermined by him tweeting the essay out
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sebsel (yes!)
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www.kevinmarks.com edited /generations (+10) "add a sense of the age of the page for context" (view diff)
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petermolnar what is the story behind generations, why did it came to be?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "story behind generations, why did it came to be" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "story behind generations, why did it came to be is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[KevinMarks] it grew out of a discussion at indiewebcamp sf 2014 where we were trying to think about growing indieweb
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aaronpk original version: https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?title=generations&oldid=7324
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sebsel This one: https://indieweb.org/2014/SF/Demos#Amber_Case
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aaronpk intersting that the definition started out framing the problem as barriers to entry. we seem to have lost that in the latest version
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sebsel it is nice that the first version already has Gen2 as "understands cPanel, Scriptaculous, Fantastico, etc. has a domain name and blog."
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sebsel and no one has dared to edit that.
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sebsel (what are Scriptaculous, Fantastico???)
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aaronpk i have no idea lol
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[KevinMarks] http://www.kevinmarks.com/indiewebsfdemowrapup.html#generations
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petermolnar scriptaculous was a js framework :D
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Loqi IndieWebCamp SF Wrapup Demos 2014-03-08
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petermolnar a LONG time ago
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petermolnar http://script.aculo.us/
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petermolnar (warning, web 2.0 content)
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petermolnar I'm kinda surprised that site is still alive
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petermolnar current version: script.aculo.us 1.9.0 as of December 23, 2010.
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sebsel Apple, NASA, Ikea.
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[KevinMarks] not sure what became of amber's comics
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sebsel it seems like mostly her page + people adding themselves.
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sebsel and it seems like tantek made the move to /generations
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sebsel oh well, I don't know if rebranding it to /barriers is fixing things.
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petermolnar no, it doesn't
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gregorlove.com edited /generations (-79) "{{warning}} template, typo fix" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com created /Template:warning/doc (+357) "doc" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:warning (+67) "+transcluded doc" (view diff)
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[tantek] gregorlove++
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Loqi gregorlove has 11 karma in this channel over the last year (51 in all channels)
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gregorlove.com created /Template:note/doc (+325) "doc" (view diff)
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seblog.nl edited /IndieAuth (-80) "move to warning template" (view diff)
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GWG aaronpk: Maybe when Loqi advises people to go to dev it should explain the difference?
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jacky yeah
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jacky and/or add a link to the Wiki about the differences?
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GWG jacky: Exactly
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GWG Such as l... "We try to keep this room for x.
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aaronpk loqi only nudges out of the main channel, but i like the idea of linking to /discuss
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gRegorLove Just noticed "Thank you to our sponsors of IndieWeb events!
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gRegorLove " is pretty low contrast in the page footer
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gRegorLove not sure where to update that
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tantek.com edited /challenges (+45) "/* Citations to process */ add Praxis and the Indieweb" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /generations (+323) "update dfn to was, 2014-era, why, why not now. Note content preserved for historical reasons" (view diff)
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[tantek] there we go, take a look sebsel, petermolnar, aaronpk, jacky, [KevinMarks], gRegorLove
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[tantek] what are generations?
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Loqi Generations was a 2014-era summary of a spectrum of potential IndieWeb adopters (beyond the oversimplified developer/user dichotomy) in a series of clusters that were expected to progressively adopt the IndieWeb for themselves and help onboard others; subsequently the community grew, both across generations & in other ways, and is working on replacing the now obsolete generations model with something more inclusive and up to date https://indieweb.org/generations
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[tantek] gah too long oops.
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tantek.com edited /generations (-32) "shorten for hopefully Loqi what is-ability" (view diff)
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[tantek] fixed
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[tantek] does this capture the essence of some of the critique while preserving it as a historical artifact of the community (it served its purpose at the time, and it's ok that it's no longer representative)
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[tantek] ?
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[KevinMarks] I think that works, yes
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[KevinMarks] worth removing from some of the links? https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?search=%5B%5Bgenerations%5D%5D&title=Special%3ASearch&go=Go
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[tantek] maybe the "easy" ones, like when it's in a See Also section
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[tantek] the rest likely deserve to be either left alone, or need more context-dependent updates to not leave a gaping hole
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gRegorLove looks good, [tantek]
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[tantek] thanks gRegorLove. I tried to incorporate what seemed to be the rough consensus of folks here in the community. if there's any particular aspect of essential criticism etc. missing, I'm still open to adding more. Or if it's a criticism detail, anyone can add to https://indieweb.org/generations#Criticism as well
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www.kevinmarks.com edited /2019/Berlin/vouch (+1) "/* Notes */" (view diff)
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@andrewtj ↩ī¸ Thanks for sharing that. I do wonder whether the IndieWeb can move beyond its webdev bias. Just on domain names, there was a time when free reg was more available. Maybe that's something to revisit. (Free in the style of http://lorikeet.id.au, not freenom or the like.) (twitter.com/_/status/1359274532435988482)
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www.kevinmarks.com edited /2016/Brighton/webmention (+0) "/* Notes */" (view diff)
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www.kevinmarks.com edited /Shrewdness (+0) "/* Column-based */" (view diff)
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www.kevinmarks.com edited /spam (+0) (view diff)
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jacky yeah it looks great to me tbh
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aaronpk 👍
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tantek.com edited /this_channel (+27) "update redirect" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /this_channel_for_if_-chat_and_-meta_are_their_own_separate_rooms (+44) "redirect, prompted by alex11" (view diff)
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@zuzudev #todayIwatched How to make a Gemini Capsule - The protocol, not the rocket by @HexDSL #gemini #indieweb #should https://youtu.be/GtCTp0YwIlY (twitter.com/_/status/1359280475894906880)
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