#meta 2021-05-19

2021-05-19 UTC
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[chrisaldrich] what is PubPub?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "PubPub" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "PubPub is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[tantek] wat
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boffosocko.com edited /2021/Pop-ups/Webmentions_Beyond_Webmention.io (+193) "/* Posts */ Host your own webmention receiver by Wouter Groeneveld" (view diff)
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[tantek] barnabywalters++ GREAT chat log archeology with /timeline and wow this gem! https://chat.indieweb.org/2012-03-25
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Loqi barnabywalters has 1 karma in this channel over the last year (6 in all channels)
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boffosocko.com edited /static_site_generator (+188) "highlight link to building blocks on static site page; links; add SSG abbreviation to definition" (view diff)
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boffosocko.com edited /static_site (+894) "go-jamming service and links to documentation" (view diff)
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[chrisaldrich] aaronpk++ for writing 7 lines of text back in 2012 in a scant 9 minutes to outline Webmention which is now used by thousands of sites and which have been sent over 2 million times.
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Loqi aaronpk has 32 karma in this channel over the last year (167 in all channels)
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tantek.com edited /timeline (+18) "add 2021 stub section" (view diff)
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boffosocko.com edited /reader (+484) "/* Brainstorming */ miscellaneous articles" (view diff)
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Loqi [New Event] calumryan.com created "May 26, 2021 7:00pm Homebrew Website Club Europe/London" https://events.indieweb.org/5yxpuuPQ4JaA
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kaja.sknebel.net edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net/upcoming-hwcs (+186) "update from events.indieweb.org" (view diff)
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doosboox https://gist.github.com/joepie91/df80d8d36cd9d1bde46ba018af497409 and https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt (which I suppose could be a leaked draft) indicate that there's some turmoil in freenode management. Is freenode still the place to chat?
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doosboox the latter link references irc.libera.chat, which I fail to connect to b/c of "Password mismatch." (not sure it's even possible to create a user yet)
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barnabywalters based on the gist write-up, it looks like the best plan is to wait and see what happens, and discuss where we would move in the worse-case scenario
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doosboox This popped up in the server messages 7 minutes ago: "14:05 -jess- [Global Notice] Hi all. It feels like my moral responsibility to inform all users that administrative control of freenode and its user data will soon change hands, and I will be resigning from freenode staff effective immediately. It's been an honour to help you all."
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petermolnar how large is the freenode "staff"? ("" because they are volunteers, if I understand correctly)
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doosboox petermolnar: I have no idea
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petermolnar yeah, I got that as well, but to be honest, that really should not have been sent that way
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petermolnar communicating this way, with these methods won't gain respect at all
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doosboox petermolnar: How would you prefer that it's done?
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petermolnar the links are ok, taking it to some sort of discussion - eg. reddit, mailing list, etc - is ok, but direct messaging people is not, especially because I only keep hearing one side of the story
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petermolnar even if everything is true in https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt , direct messaging every user like this is, in my opinion, an abuse of power
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petermolnar if we do go another way... let's all spin up our own xmpp, and just connect with those, hm? :D
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doosboox that'd work for me :)
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doosboox libera.chat is up and working now
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petermolnar we have a saying in Hungarian; translation would be something like "from a bucket to a pot" - I'm not sure we should jump immediately.
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doosboox https://gist.github.com/joepie91/df80d8d36cd9d1bde46ba018af497409 has been updated
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doosboox in Swedish it's "from the ashes into the fire" :D
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petermolnar > That plan fell apart because of unrelated drama, and Charybdis was forked (again) at that point. - https://gist.github.com/aaronmdjones/1a9a93ded5b7d162c3f58bdd66b8f491 this whole shitshow is glorious.
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[KevinMarks] Out of the frying pan into the fire is the UK expression
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petermolnar the Hungarian a bit less drastic :)
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petermolnar ah, so the other sides' story is here: https://gist.github.com/realrasengan/88549ec34ee32d01629354e4075d2d48 and https://gist.github.com/realrasengan/f569c5e4727d21eb939fff99cb9dc84c
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petermolnar watching the "BBS the Documentary" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nO5vjmDFZaI - was such an eye-opener that these dramas happen a lot, everywhere, except maybe the tech had gone a full cycle in the meanwhile.
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doosboox Yeah, I’ve been around enough communities both on- and offline to know that drama is ubiquitous
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aaronpk I suspect whatever changes happen won't really have a direct effect on our use of freenode in a practical sense
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@rMdes_ Unless #Freenode is liberated from this takeover, freenode as we knew it for 20+ years is dead. Move your stuff #Indieweb https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt (https://blog.rmendes.net/s/1bB7o2) (twitter.com/_/status/1395006167470981121)
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petermolnar I mean... would it be better if we move "our stuff" to slack, which is a for profit company from the start, like many projects did, eg wordpress?
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petermolnar I've learnt it the hard way that expecting people to move after a split like this is unrealistic
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doosboox aaronpk: maybe not… But now that it’s run by a corporate entity with inherent interest in my data I feel like sending some GDPR difficulties their way 😉
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petermolnar anyhow, I'd be more than happy to spin up indieweb xmpp servers to be xmpp bridges for us
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doosboox petermolnar: yeah, people don’t un-root themselves and move. Not in general
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doosboox I run a channel on Quakenet. Someone asked me why, with that sort of incredulous look on their face that reveals how ghastly Quakenet must be
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doosboox I know absolutely nothing about Quakenet history or governance. My channel is there because I happened to be there
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doosboox we’re 6 users there, but I know that we’d lose half if I declared that we’re moving 😆
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doosboox Well this drama is at least entertaining me, apparently
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doosboox irc.libera.chat just went down 😆
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petermolnar https://news.ycombinator.com/ - all 3 top news is about the freenode/libera mess, wow.
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petermolnar aaronpk: would it be hard to bridge freenode and libera indieweb channels?
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aaronpk I suppose I could adapt the slack bridge to do that
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petermolnar aaronpk, question regarding our comms setup: is the source of truth IRC, or are our chats (web, slack, irc, potentially matrix) are somehow interlinked, so if IRC falls out, we'd be able to continue?
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aaronpk everything is bridged through IRC, so if IRC disappears then the web logs and slack would not be connected
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petermolnar I see
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petermolnar would it make sense to have a sync/backup IRC somehow? (I never looked into IRC room clustering options, but I'm fairly sure this is a solved problem with bots)
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barnabywalters anyone know what the policy is for setting up rooms on the w3c IRC server? if we did decide to move, might that be an option, given that we spend a lot of time discussing W3C specs here?
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barnabywalters and in #microformats too, given that the mf wiki is the official rel registry
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barnabywalters (or is that only for the WHATWG HTML spec?)
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aaronpk IIRC w3c is considering moving off of IRC too so i'm not sure that's a good long term plan
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barnabywalters hmm okay
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aaronpk well, that may be overstating it a bit
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aaronpk but: https://github.com/w3c/modern-tooling/issues/16
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Loqi [darobin] #16 Replacement for IRC
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barnabywalters I know a lot of rust projects use matrix rooms
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[schmarty] wow that discussion has been ongoing since 2015
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petermolnar > moving off of IRC - curious, what is the preffered "to" system?
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barnabywalters they’re okay, I suppose. the GUI clients I’ve tried so far have all been much heavier than IRC, which I don’t like
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[schmarty] from the end of that discussion it looks like the w3c TAG is on matrix now.
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petermolnar I have mixed feelings about Matrix; as user, it's workable, as server, it's a horror story when one runs federated rooms.
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[schmarty] oop spoke too soon as it seems that Matrix room is part of Matrix's freenode bridge.
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aaronpk i suppose we could always run our own IRC server too :P
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petermolnar but it's the only thing with actually federated - as on cross-synced on every instance - rooms.
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[schmarty] double oop it's a w3c-run bridge. i'll get it right someday.
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petermolnar aaronpk: we could, indeed.
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aaronpk is still running his own private IRC server even if all it does is act as a notification channel now that the reader stuff is all moved to monocle
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[schmarty] maintaining and moderating an IRC server sounds like a heavy community lift 😐
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aaronpk yeah i don't really know what it takes to run a public IRC server
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petermolnar name-drops XMPP, because /me likes XMPP, but it wouldn't really bring any benefits over IRC alone, and doesn't do federated rooms, like Matrix yet
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petermolnar > yeah i don't really know what it takes to run a public IRC server - a lot of admintax for sure
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[tw2113_Slack_] wait what? Freenode in general is at risk?
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[schmarty] [tw2113_Slack_] there's some speculation about that ongoing in #indieweb-chat
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aaronpk also in this channel earlier
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[tw2113_Slack_] will try to review sometime soon. oof that’d be a big loss imho
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aaronpk i don't think it is really at risk of disappearing
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petermolnar well... if all the maintenance staff leave, it is
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aaronpk the good news is if it does disappear overnight somehow, it will be very easy to move the bridge over to a new IRC server, and we can all continue chatting in slack during the downtime anyway
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petermolnar > chatting in slack - brrrr :(
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[tantek] I have yet to see an efficient (responsive and non-stalling, non-beachballing) UI to Matrix short of a "native" iOS app so I'm not a fan of using Matrix (from a user experience perspective)
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[tantek] That's one thing IRC always got right, fast clients that "just work" with being able to type and see stuff show-up *instantly*
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[tantek] so much lag in so many aspects of Matrix that it's a big meh for me as a user, all the fancy federated features are secondary 🤷‍♂️
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petermolnar ^^^ agreed
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[tantek] in general I'm kinda annoyed at how many internet/web based UIs for "just" entering and moving around text are abysmally slow and require megabytes of code. it's like really? y'all managed to take a 1970s era problem and screw it up this badly?
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[tantek] old-man-yells-at-bloated-cloud-code.gif
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petermolnar that's partially the fault of trying to put everything on the web instead of keeping them as protocols designed to do a specific job
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petermolnar nearly all of the bloated clients are electron (read: web) based monsters
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barnabywalters I wonder if the performance cost is inherent to Matrix’s decentralisation (something IRC obviously doesn’t do), or if it’s due to unrelated software issues
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[schmarty] there are definitely some lighter-weight Matrix clients, but i feel like they all suffer from feature drift as the main project and flagship clients move on.
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petermolnar the first one
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petermolnar well, both
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petermolnar federated rooms sync with eachother, every node to every node, the sync happens on the matrix servers. The clients are just painfully bloated electron apps.
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[tantek] it was all downhill once programmers stopped bothering to count the bytes (of all their code, protocols, data storage, network packets, etc.) 😛
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alex11 i don't hate matrix but i'm more interested in xmpp
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[tantek] ^ petermolnar start a club 😄
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alex11 although yes various people have said it's a bit of a cludgy protocol or at least it was
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[tantek] waits for someone to propose JSPP as a "just use JSON instead of XML" version of XMPP
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petermolnar xmpp:mail@petermolnar.net \o/
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petermolnar xmpp made great progress since Conversations (an android client) showed up
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barnabywalters I mean, it’d most likely be lighter weight…
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www.maxwelljoslyn.com edited /reply-chain (+200) (view diff)
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[KevinMarks] h-MPP
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barnabywalters lol
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petermolnar "hMPP" sounds like the noise someone makes when they kick the table leg with their little toe
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jacky ^ lol
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jacky [tantek]: I think there is a JSON-form of XMPP!
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jacky or I might be confusing it for the binary format that WhatsApp used
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www.maxwelljoslyn.com edited /reply-chain (+12) (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /Category:jargon (-7) "-meta" (view diff)
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sknebel mh, maybe the wordlist could use some further pruning. because getting yanked by the bot for no obvious good reason is also not exactly "welcoming"
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aaronpk would it help if it always calls out the specific words used? right now it's only in some of the responses
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barnabywalters does Loqi “nudge” immediately on detecting jargon, or wait for it to build up over a period of time?
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barnabywalters aaronpk: definitely +1 for always calling out specific words
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sknebel yes
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barnabywalters helps to fix false-positives, and less annoying
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aaronpk 2 occurrences within 5 minutes triggers it
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barnabywalters I see
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aaronpk tho looking back at that conversation, i don't see 2 occurrences within 5 minutes
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sknebel "migrate"?
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sknebel no, not on the list
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barnabywalters aaronpk: Loqi mentioned your nick, but I don’t see any recent messages from you there
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aaronpk that was my first thought too
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aaronpk yeah the last thing i said was "amp" a couple hours ago
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barnabywalters Loqi holds grudges, apparently
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sknebel (I also note that the list seems to assume that any mention of a something is about implementing it... I see lots of potential for false positives)
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barnabywalters I think the point is that discussions which mention those terms are more likely to be plumbing-focused than user-focused, and therefore probably belong in -dev
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sknebel "more likely" is a bad threshold for that IMHO
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barnabywalters maybe raising the nudge threshold rather than pruning the word list would be worth experimenting with
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barnabywalters that at least makes it more likely that the discussion will get moved by a human, leaving Loqi as a last resort
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@kevinmarks My notes from the #GoogleIO Chrome Follow session on my site: http://www.kevinmarks.com/chromefollow.html featuring Janice Wong, @shekharsharad and @nickkrasney from the @WebCreators team. For more on modern readers, see https://indieweb.org/Microsub and join http://chat.indieweb.org (twitter.com/_/status/1395093188147400708)
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www.svenknebel.de posts edited /Category:jargon (-6) "/* Loqi Nudge */ remove "nvm", waaay more often used in logs as "nevermind"" (view diff)
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aaronpk lol i didn't realize nvm was in there good catch
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www.svenknebel.de posts edited /Category:jargon (-23) "/* Keywords */ remove "method", in logs used more as non-tech term, recent false positive" (view diff)
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sknebel (I had to google what the "technical" nvm is...)
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www.maxwelljoslyn.com uploaded /File:may-li-khoe-threaded-discussion.png "Visualization of a threaded discussion. From May-Li Khoe's master's thesis (2000). Shared with permission from private correspondence, to facilitate discussion at HWC. https://indieweb.org/File:may-li-khoe-threaded-discussion.png"
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[chee] i can't actually read either of your messages without hearing "nevermind" in my head
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barnabywalters aaronpk: small Loqi suggestion: if after being nudged, someone says “why”, link to https://loqi.me/jargon/
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aaronpk ooh
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www.maxwelljoslyn.com edited /reply-chain (+17) "/* Other Examples */" (view diff)
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sknebel I'd prefer leaving that to humans
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barnabywalters nobody mentioned https://loqi.me/jargon/ up until now
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barnabywalters and I think an auto-moderator should be as open as possible about its actions
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[chee] ooh that's a really good idea
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aaronpk that's kind of a debug view, the wiki page is the main link
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barnabywalters but the wiki page doesn’t list specific instances
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aaronpk https://loqi.me/jargon/ only keeps history for 5 minutes anyway
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barnabywalters it explains what loqi looks for, but not the reasons for the specific nudge
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barnabywalters you could always link to both in a “why” response though
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aaronparecki.com edited /Category:jargon (+93) "/* Loqi Nudge */" (view diff)
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aaronpk the message will now show the specific words anyway
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[chee] nice
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Seirdy if there are any plans to migrate from freenode: libera has the same trusted OG fnode staff but they're too swamped now to discuss setting up e.g. a matrix bridge. you might want to try claiming the channels just in case. Tilde.Chat has great staff and seems pretty in line with indieweb ideals. Hackint and OFTC also have good staff.
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aaronpk already done
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Seirdy 👍
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[dianoetic_net] Hot cow this has been an exciting day
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[schmarty] :cut_of_meat:
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