#meta 2021-05-20

2021-05-20 UTC
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GWG [schmarty]: Might we have the pleasure of your company this evening.
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[schmarty] GWG maybe but i'll be very late! i have podcast recordings on most Wednesdays 😬
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GWG [schmarty]: We are often still there at midnight.
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GWG Even a drive by hi is nice.
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[schmarty] GWG++ that is good to know and thanks! I'll swing by if i have any social gas left in the social tank. :}
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Loqi GWG has 28 karma in this channel over the last year (119 in all channels)
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GWG I sometimes force myself. My tank is low today. Hope it is replenished.
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[chrisaldrich] I'm hoping my Wednesday night traffic jam goes away when the school year wraps up in a couple of weeks so I can swing by HWC online more often.
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GWG I was going to discuss my proposal for a monthly popup schedule, beginning 30 days from today.
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[chrisaldrich] Discuss? I thought it was already set in stone...
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GWG It isn't on the calendar yet.
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GWG I want to discuss with a few people before putting it on.
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kaja.sknebel.net edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net/upcoming-hwcs (+10) "update from events.indieweb.org" (view diff)
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Loqi [New Event] david.shanske.com created "May 19, 2021 6:00pm Homebrew Website Club - The Americas" https://events.indieweb.org/4ye1RCe2cBdC
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Loqi [Event Updated] david.shanske.com updated "May 26, 2021 6:00pm Homebrew Website Club - The Americas" changed start_date https://events.indieweb.org/event/248/history/808/diff
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jacky hey y'all in HWC Americas, I'll be chatting in here - the audio here is loud
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GWG jacky: I'll speak your words. But I can't get your excited tone down.
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jacky Thank you
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jacky To what Angelo is saying, we could have a XMPP server that allows users to appear somehow by their domain name
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jacky I was curious about this as a means of authentication
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GWG Waiting for an opening to say this.
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jacky I got the volume to be a bit lower - I'll go
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jacky thank you!
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GWG A sknebel sighting?
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boffosocko.com edited /2021/Pop-ups/Webmentions_Beyond_Webmention.io (+219) "/* Posts */ Webmention and Twitter by Manton" (view diff)
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Loqi [New Event] david.shanske.com created "Jun 26, 2021 11:00am June IndieWeb PopUp Event" https://events.indieweb.org/DNjCEi05jHfH
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jacky Going to pop off! Gotta have dinner
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sknebel GWG: yes! waiting for a build to finish, so I thought I'd listen in for a bit
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GWG It's always nice to see you.
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sknebel same! just always hard to fit in the schedule
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kaja.sknebel.net edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net/upcoming-hwcs (+173) "update from events.indieweb.org" (view diff)
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Loqi [Event Updated] david.shanske.com updated "Jun 26, 2021 11:00am June IndieWeb PopUp Event: Very Sensitive Data on Your Personal Website" changed name, status, description "Declare Topic" https://events.indieweb.org/event/249/history/810/diff
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gRegorLove Oops, forgot it was Wednesday, missed HWC
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GWG gRegorLove: No, we're still here. Join us
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GWG gRegorLove: I just extended the meeting, so the link is back
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Loqi [Event Updated] david.shanske.com updated "May 19, 2021 6:00pm Homebrew Website Club - The Americas" changed end_time https://events.indieweb.org/event/246/history/811/diff
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Saphire So
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Saphire Will the indieweb site change the link to librachat?
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sknebel little point to have it point somewhere where nearly nobody is right now
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Saphire Starts somewhere though
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Seirdy one thing that some people do is have a bot relay messages between networks until people finish moving. another thing is to have a bot just repeat the message "this channel has moved to <network address>" every 5 seconds.
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kaja.sknebel.net edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net/upcoming-hwcs (+0) "update from events.indieweb.org" (view diff)
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sknebel sure, but the "starts somewhere" is more "making sure the infrastructure is in place" and not "updating links" ;)
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Loqi [New Event] david.shanske.com created "Jul 10, 2021 9:00am July IndieWeb Create Day" https://events.indieweb.org/B6zvFMa8yjTe
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sknebel and luckily it doesn't look it is immediately urgent
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sknebel GWG++
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Loqi GWG has 29 karma in this channel over the last year (120 in all channels)
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GWG Hoping these two events become repeats.
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GWG The monthly popup and the create day
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kaja.sknebel.net edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net/upcoming-hwcs (-10) "update from events.indieweb.org" (view diff)
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aaronpk https://freenode.net/news/freenode-is-foss
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sknebel yeah. lol
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jacky yikes
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Saphire Ew
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sknebel really, what I'm waiting for is a word regarding matrix bridges, then we can jump IMHO
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aaronpk I was more on the fence about moving earlier today but then I realized we don't really need the discoverability aspect of freenode either so it really doesn't matter much which network we're on
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jacky yup
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aaronpk and in fact we've actually had more problems than benefits being on freenode because the whole network gets targeted by spammers and it spills into our channels. Not that that's likely to change on liberachat
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jacky yeah
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jacky but hopefully, we can expect them to be a bit more diligent since it's a fresher network
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jacky and maybe it's running the latest version of IRC - I remember it having some more advanced moderation stuff
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sknebel yeah. could of course choose another network (OFTC would've been my candidate), but since who I "knew" of freenode staff moved all to libera that's fine too
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jacky oftc >> home of debian :)
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sknebel (and libera is clearly very aligned regarding policies, whereas other networks feel differently about bridges)
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sknebel hope matrix.org doesn't use this to silently bow out of running matrix bridges for everyone :P
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@iamhirusi ↩️ Ah, no. I'm just no longer on the IndieWeb. In the future? Maybe. But it's not your outgoing webmentions that are broken in any case. :) Thanks for that recommendation! I'll update the blog post soon. (twitter.com/_/status/1395264635989790722)
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doosboox How many indieweb irc channels are there?
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sknebel what is discuss?
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Loqi Join the #indieweb discussion via the web, Slack, IRC, or Matrix clients now with additional channels for dev, wordpress, and meta specific chat! https://indieweb.org/discuss
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doosboox sknebel: ty!
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petermolnar > To what Angelo is saying, we could have a XMPP server that allows users to appear somehow by their domain name - I have an open biboumi at irc.petermolnar.net. I even added it to https://indieweb.org/discuss#Join_via_XMPP
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petermolnar jacky: are you aware of any solution that could bridge xmpp simply to the existing chats apart from "run biboumi with your xmpp server and connect to irc?"
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kaja.sknebel.net edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net/upcoming-hwcs (-186) "update from events.indieweb.org" (view diff)
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kaja.sknebel.net edited /Template:next-hwc (+0) "update next date from events.indieweb.org" (view diff)
[girrodocus], edsu, [tantek], [tw2113_Slack_], jeremych_, jacob4 and batkin joined the channel
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jacky petermolnar: nope - but I also wasn't aware of that XMPP bridge tbh!
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /ActivityStreams (+752) "/* Indieweb perspectives */ moved AS-related comment here" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Taproot () "(-5139) Removed a lot of outdated content, updated relevant content" (view diff)
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lahacker why doesn't chat.indieweb.org append a webmentioned h-entry to the `target` room?
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gRegorLove Like adding comments to the chat logs from your own site?
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loqi.me created /pillowfort (+72) "prompted by barnabywalters and dfn added by barnabywalters" (view diff)
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asteria test
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asteria test?
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gRegorLove test!
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lahacker yeah.. i figure the website already allows you to post to chat through it so have the webmention endpoint do the same?
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gRegorLove Not sure how those webmentions could come back into IRC.
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gRegorLove It would be a kind of odd one-way messaging too
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lahacker yeah ok i'm now seeing all of the additional pieces that'd be required
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lahacker eg you'd have to recreate the "Join the Chat" button currently at chat.indieweb.org
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lahacker but once the bot has joined on your behalf you could do some kind of reverse chat-names to receive a wm from `lahacker.net` and bridge it to IRC as `lahacker`
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lahacker and yes your client would be rather boring w/o a reader
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barnabywalters Pillowfort is /pillowfort
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@WordPressTV IndieWeb und WordPress @wpnue @pfefferle http://wordpress.tv/2021/05/20/indieweb-und-wordpress/ (twitter.com/_/status/1395463248112201733)
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barnabywalters what is Pillowfort
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Loqi pillowfort is https://www.pillowfort.social/ https://indieweb.org/pillowfort
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barnabywalters hmm
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barnabywalters I can never remember mediawiki redirect syntax
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /pillowfort (-48) "Redirected page to [[Pillowfort]]" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk created /Pillowfort (+422) "Stubbed" (view diff)
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gRegorLove The move option at the top right will handle those redirects too
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gRegorLove Er. More > Move, that is
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barnabywalters oh good point! thanks
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barnabywalters my wiki-fu is rusty
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gRegorLove understandable!
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barnabywalters but I finally remembered which way round the URL and link text go inside [] links :D
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /challenges (+639) "/* Citations to process */ Linked to Kiriska article with relevant quote" (view diff)
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gRegorLove I think I've given up on ever remembering that in Markdown format, haha. MediaWiki's is easier for me to remember somehow.
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[tantek] ^
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jacky muscle memory :)
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jacky def the other way for me tbh
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[tantek] and less punctuation 😛
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[tantek] (in MW vs MD)
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barnabywalters yep, it’s the other way around for me too
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[tantek] which is ironically more readable
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barnabywalters although objectively speaking I prefer the MW syntax
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[tantek] only for links. it's kinda crap at most else
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barnabywalters I like the MW [url link text] syntax, but it pisses me off that it’s completely different to the internal [[Page|link text]] syntax
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barnabywalters at least the ordering of the destination and link text is consistent
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jacky yeah that's a saving grace
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waterpigs.co.uk created /Domain (+20) "Redirected page to [[domain]]" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /top-level_domain (+525) "Added a section on specific TLD restrictions" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /Pillowfort (+242) "/* See Also */ citation template" (view diff)
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jacky this looks like it'll be a interesting one https://events.indieweb.org/2021/06/june-indieweb-popup-event-very-sensitive-data-on-your-personal-website-DNjCEi05jHfH
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jacky I'd even put things like the map of an exercise into the range of sensitive information tbh but I'm curious to see what people think
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[chee] yes! i'm really excited about that popup
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[chee] yesterday I was asking folks who use their blog as a commonplace book what they do with private and personal info, so that popup's right where i am right now
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /top-level_domain (+223) "/* TLD-Specific Restrictions and Considerations */ .ly" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /top-level_domain (+165) "/* TLD-Specific Restrictions and Considerations */ added WP see also" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /top-level_domain (+12187) "/* TLD-Specific Restrictions and Considerations */ Moved TLD list from /short-domain" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /short-domains () "(-13098) /* Domains */ moved TLD list to /top-level-domain" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /short-domains (+23) "/* See Also */ linked to /tld" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /top-level_domain (+20) "/* See Also */ linked to short-domains" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /io (+7) "updated link to .io" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /top-level_domain (+324) "/* is */ more up-to-date information about cost" (view diff)
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gRegorLove some other inbound links might need to be updated: https://indieweb.org/Special:WhatLinksHere/short-domains
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gregorlove.com edited /short-domains (+89) "more info link to /TLD after intro paragraph" (view diff)
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[tantek] did I miss something? why the massive rewrite from "short domains" to "top level domains"? The previous had a specific use-case context that made sense. The latter is much more technical theoretical centric focus. Not a good switch IMO
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[tantek] in general we should keep things on the wiki use-case centric, meaning even the naming of pages and organization thereof
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Loqi misses something too
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[tantek] instead of replicating technical "stacks" and theories are marketectures etc.
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barnabywalters short-domains had a long list of information about specific TLDs, most of which wasn’t specific to the short-domain use-case
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[tantek] so the page was too long and you wanted to split it?
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barnabywalters and which was more generally relevant to the process of choosing a personal domain
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[tantek] to be clear, that long list of information was *very* specific to the process of choosing a *short* domain
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barnabywalters nope, I was looking for information about TLDs from the point of view of restrictions and considerations when choosing one
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[tantek] by splitting it up, it's now harder to go back/forth between who has what short domain and why or why not
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barnabywalters [tantek]: which infomation, specifically, in https://indieweb.org/top-level_domain#Domains is more relevant to short domains than to choosing a personal domain in general?
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[tantek] i'd rather see all the ccTLD explanations still inline on "short domains" frankly to help that use-case stay easier
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[tantek] if you want to make a separate page for gTLDs that's fine
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[tantek] VERY different common use-ases
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[tantek] use-cases
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barnabywalters most of it is about general restrictions and cautionary warnings about use of those TLDs which is relevant to choosing a TLD in general
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[tantek] all of ccTLD explanations are much more relevant typically for *short* domain use-cases than personal
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[tantek] "relevant to choosing a TLD in general" is missing / neglecting the primary use-case point of short domains. it's a premature abstraction (which then distances from solving the actual use-case)
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aaronpk why especially more relevant?
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aaronpk seems relevant for choosing a domain regardless of its use
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[tantek] yeah that's the kind of abstracting of information that makes it one-click harder to find
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barnabywalters I disagree, and you still haven’t identified any content on https://indieweb.org/top-level_domain#Domains which is more relevant to short domains than picking a TLD in general
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[tantek] that's the problem
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[tantek] all of the info about ccTLDs are more relevant to short domains than picking a personal domain
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[tantek] 100% of the folks in this conversation 😛
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barnabywalters picking a TLD for a personal domain is also a much more common situation than making a short domain
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aaronpk i don't see why it is more relevant for a short domain
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[tantek] because each of us did not pick a ccTLD for our primary domain, and that's not what people typically do
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[tantek] maybe a bunch of trendy .io project etc. but that's a tertiary at best use-case
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aaronpk i think that is a legacy assumption at this point
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[tantek] in practice all the ccTLD info is more relevant for a short domain
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aaronpk if you chose your domain 10+ years ago it is likely a .com or your home country code, but that is just not true anymore
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[tantek] that's all the evidence we have to date
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[tantek] so we should prefer that existing evidence over a theoretical assertion of TLD abstraction
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aaronpk there's plenty of people who have been creating wiki pages here that use a wide variety of TLDs
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[tantek] no .com .net .org is still preferred
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aaronpk https://indieweb.org/Special:ListUsers
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[tantek] aaronpk, gTLDs yes, hence I said go for it to make that page
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barnabywalters of the examples of “short domains” in that list, the following are in fact primary domains, not “short domains” https://gri.gs/ https://brid.gy/ bear.im werd.io https://bret.io/ https://cleverdevil.io https://q4.re/
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[tantek] https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?title=Special%3AListUsers&username=&group=&creationSort=1&desc=1&limit=50 proves my point
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[tantek] most of those are gTLDs, not ccTLDs (yes there are a few, but they're the considerable minority)
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[tantek] barnabywalters, that's a good point too though
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barnabywalters [tantek]: as I said, if you actually read through the content I moved, it’s clear that most of it is broadly relevant to choosing a domain, not just to the short-domain use case. which is why I moved it.
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[tantek] barnabywalters, that "broadly relevant" is what I mean about over-abstracting
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[tantek] it's better to prefer and design for the specific 80% use-case rather than broader but more abstract 90% of use-cases
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[tantek] because doing the latter does a usability disservice to the 80% looking for the former
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barnabywalters I’m not over-abstracting, choosing a personal domain *is* the 80% use case, compared to short domains
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[tantek] I mean that's true re: personal domains
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aaronpk here's a fun exercise, look at the number of new user accounts on the wiki that don't choose .com then go look at how many of them have short domains. i suspect it's vastly more non-.com personal domains than any short domains
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[tantek] that was the link I pasted ^
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barnabywalters I originally started making my own list of domain related restrictions on the TLD page because I read about a TLD-related restriction elsewhere, thought it was worth documenting as a consideration for choosing a personal domain, and didn’t see any information about it on /personal-domain or /tld
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barnabywalters so I started making my own list
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aaronpk i see a lot of not .coms on that list
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barnabywalters then gRegorLove pointed out that there was already a much more complete list on /short-domains
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[tantek] that's the wrong framing aaronpk. it's gTLDs vs ccTLDs. .com is just one gTLD. others include .org .life etc.
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barnabywalters which I hadn’t found when searching for domain-related restrictions on the wiki
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aaronpk i don't see how the gTLD vs ccTLD distinction is relevant here
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barnabywalters so the move was motivated also by personal experience exposing this information architecture bug
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barnabywalters yeah me neither
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barnabywalters it’s about the process of choosing a domain, and what considerations you should be aware of
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barnabywalters which is relevant both to the personal domain and short domain use case
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barnabywalters so IMO the general list belongs on /TLD, which both other pages can link to
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aaronpk right, and this choice is made vastly more often for personal domains than short domains
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barnabywalters and if there are considerations which *ONLY* apply to, e.g. the short-domain use case, they can be expanded on on that page
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barnabywalters I really don’t see how any other structure is preferable
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aaronpk i can't think of anything that applies to the short domain use case that doesn't apply to personal domain use case
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barnabywalters right, so there might even be an argument for moving the list to /personal-domain, which I didn’t do as /TLD already existed, and I didn’t want to clutter the /personal-domain page with a long list
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[tantek] do we want to encourage ccTLDs at the same level of "importance" as gTLDs as a potential personal domain choice?
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[tantek] the ccTLDs always as a whole felt "riskier" per .io ethical problems, .eu going away for UK folks, etc.
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[tantek] so I'm uneasy about putting them on equal footing like that
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aaronpk i don't think most people even know about the difference between ccTLD and gTLD and instead they are thinking about "what do i want at the end of my domain" when they make this choice, so they belong all in one list
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[tantek] as just "yet another option" for personal domains
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[tantek] aaronpk, yeah that's a good discovery-based argument
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barnabywalters [tantek]: unless I’m missing something, gTLD and ccTLD are not mentioned on /personal-domain, and only ccTLD is mentioned, once, on /short-domain
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barnabywalters so it might be something worth writing about, but I don’t see how it’s relevant to the move I made
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[tantek] barnabywalters, yeah, because we're speaking here in shorthand to discuss the issue. how we document it for people to understand is different
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barnabywalters and it clearly hasn’t been a big topic up until now
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barnabywalters agreed, IMO ccTLD vs gTLD terminology is a confusing and mostly irrelevant distinction
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aaronpk i think the specific issues around specific ccTLDs are useful to point out, but they aren't necessarily different than certain specific gTLD issues
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barnabywalters whereas specific examples of TLD-specific restrictions, and the personal experiences and recommendations made by community members in that list are useful to people
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barnabywalters exactly
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[tantek] I suppose eventually we may end-up getting to specific pages for specific TLDs with examples, warnings, restrictions for each
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[aciccarello] I know I got confused by the domain details on /short-domains and added my .me domain as an indieweb example before reverting.
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[aciccarello] https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?title=short-domains&diff=75524&oldid=75523
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aaronpk i could certainly see that happening
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[tantek] good feedback [aciccarello]
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gRegorLove There's a couple pages for ccTLDs that redirect to the /short-domains anchor links
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barnabywalters yeah, if the list gets too long, or if there are some particular TLDs with a significant amount of information specific to them, they probably deserve pages of their own
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[tantek] The instinct to split long pages is also a good one, as there's a trade-off between the usability barrier of too long to scroll and one more click to find
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[tantek] I feel .io is getting close to that point
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[tantek] maybe we can pick a threshold by number of examples for a particular domain (or logins to the wiki, that was a good link aaronpk)
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[tantek] or a threshold of negativity, like for particularly problematic TLDs (would .io count as one? or maybe .ly?)
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barnabywalters yeah, .io fills up an entire screen height on my laptop, so seems like a good candidate to be moved to its own page
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[tantek] ok cool. thanks for the patience in discussing this barnabywalters, aaronpk
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jacky tbh I don't even think long pages are too much of a issue - for me, the heading stop at like three levels or so and content tends to go down to like six levels
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[tantek] jacky, long pages are literally a barrier for newer participants, so I do think it's specifically a (new person) inclusiveness issue
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[tantek] e.g. as pointed out in another thread, we have this problem with /Getting_Started right now
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /personal-domain (+493) "Stubbed a subsection about choosing a domain, linked to TLD page" (view diff)
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barnabywalters the third item in this list is spam, right? https://indieweb.org/short-domains#Criticisms
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barnabywalters huh, nope, it translates into actual criticism
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[tantek] looking at history for context of when it was added
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /short-domains (+369) "/* Criticisms */ added english translation" (view diff)
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[tantek] https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?title=short-domains&type=revision&diff=47940&oldid=41760
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[tantek] thanks barnabywalters, that's a good way to document it
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barnabywalters cool that we have some chinese content on the wiki
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aaronpk that's actually another interesting concept to figure out how to handle
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barnabywalters I’m kinda embarassed about my internal biases/racism making me assume that the chinese content was spam
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aaronpk if your domain is short enough already, there are still benefits to using a short URL scheme that redirect to your full canonical URLs at that same domain
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aaronpk so really it's not about "short domains" it's about "short URLs"
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barnabywalters it just looks very similar to a lot of emails which have made its way through my spam filter recently
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aaronpk and short domains are one way to get a shorter URL if your main domain isn't particularly short
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[tantek] aaronpk, yeah that subtlety made me switch from using my own short domain to using my primary domain + short(er) path in my POSSE PSLs
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[tantek] I got feedback from a few folks that they were much more likely to click on a domain name they clearly recognized as me/mine, than on a "short domain" that might only barely resemble my identity or might not have any obvious connection at all
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[tantek] (obv aaron.pk is much more recognizable as you 🙂 )
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aaronpk that is also an interesting point!
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barnabywalters that’s interesting feedback
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[tantek] Idk if I ever figured out where to capture that
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[tantek] some time ago I switched from ttk.me PSLs to tantek.com PSLs
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barnabywalters [tantek]: https://indieweb.org/short-domains#Criticisms
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[tantek] it's not criticism in general as it is a design consideration
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[tantek] which is why I made the counterpoint of aaronp.pk being great as a clearly tied to the actual identity short domain
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barnabywalters sure, it’s only a criticism of short domains which aren’t immediately identifiable
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[tantek] feels more like a consideration as part of "how to" pick a short domain rather than a criticism
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barnabywalters yeah, it could fit well into a How section on that page
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jacky oh I meant like a long page can feel shorter if it's easier to navigate
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jacky like if the contents were affixed in the conventionally empty space of the site then it's really just a matter of clicking to the part you're interested in
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tracydurnell.com edited /User:Tracydurnell.com (+834) "added link to homebrew website club notes, added thoughts about visualization" (view diff)
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