#meta 2021-05-21

2021-05-21 UTC
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[tantek] jacky, yeah, sticky ToC would be helpful
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tantek.com edited /principles (+55) "fix dfn, replace scratch itch, selfdogfood with make what you need, use what you make" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /challenges (+1386) "/* Citations to process */ add inline links to recent quote for better context, note selfdogfood already replaced in principles, other processing of points" (view diff)
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[tantek] ^ barnabywalters
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loqi.me created /OSS (+21) "prompted by [tantek] and redirect added by [tantek]" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /open_source_software (+21) "prompted by [tantek] and redirect added by [tantek]" (view diff)
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aaronpk speaking of gTLDs https://mastodon.gougere.fr/@bortzmeyer/106268468931486262
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Loqi [Stéphane Bortzmeyer] @Iutech @phryk @liberachat Indeed, this is a bad move. .chat belongs to Donuts, probably the worst (they signed with MPAA to take down domains with a simple email). https://www.eff.org/wp/which-internet-registries-offer-best-protection-domain-ownersI...
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vilhalmer gtlds were a mistake
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Saphire So uh
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Saphire Maybe move? <.<
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Saphire aaronpk: they also own org now so..
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[tantek] all the new ones? yeah
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tantek.com edited /Internet_Identity_Workshop (+394) "/* Past Events */ capture dates and session notes links for 30,31,32" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /blockchain (+91) "make DID a bit more discoverable" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /DID (+28) "r" (view diff)
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Loqi Just generated the first draft of this week's newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2021-05-21.html I'll generate a draft again tomorrow, so please add to it before then! https://indieweb.org/this-week#How_to
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jan.boddez.net edited /User:Jan.boddez.net (+163) "/* Microsub */" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Taproot (+5088) "Moved completed itches to History, added WIP Design notes section" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk created /Blockchain (+24) "Redirected page to [[blockchain]]" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /blockchain (+260) "/* Criminal in practice */ smdiehl tweet" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /feed (+196) "/* How to */ indicate that a feed item is a summary" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /feed (+171) "/* How to Publish */ how to indicate authorship without repeated h-cards" (view diff)
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2021-05-21.html
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2021-05-21.html
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2021-05-21.html
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /IndieAuth (+257) "/* FAQ */ added why separate auth and token endpoint stub answer" (view diff)
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2021-05-21.html
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /IndieAuth (+509) "/* Why does IndieAuth require separate authorization and token endpoints? */ expanded with info from Aaron" (view diff)
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jamietanna Should we get the group photo(s) from the Webmention pop-up on the event page, so it shows up in the newsletter?
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aaronpk yes please! who has that?
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aaronpk oh i have one if jacky doesn't
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aaronpk ok i added one, jacky feel free to add yours if it's better
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jacky I completely forgot to merge them
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jacky would it be bad to add three of them?
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jacky probably
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aaronpk yea
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jacky.wtf uploaded /File:webmention-beyond-webmention-io.png "A screengrab of the visible participants of the Webmentions beyond Webmention.io popup https://indieweb.org/File:webmention-beyond-webmention-io.png"
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jacky okay put the one up with the most happy faces I could find
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aaronpk oh i added mine to the event page so the newsletter picks it up
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aaronpk add as many as you want to the wiki :)
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jacky ah okay
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jacky hm the one I'm adding to the event doesn't seem to be saving
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jacky.wtf edited /2021/Pop-ups/Webmentions_Beyond_Webmention.io (+46) "add photo of everyone who came" (view diff)
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jacky that works for moi
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jamietanna https://events.indieweb.org/2021/05/webmentions-beyond-webmention-io-zG4JpHhZShVA << https://indieweb.org/images/1/13/webmention-beyond-webmention-io.png
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Loqi The server did not return a recognized content type
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jamietanna https://events.indieweb.org/2021/05/webmentions-beyond-webmention-io-zG4JpHhZShVA < https://indieweb.org/images/1/13/webmention-beyond-webmention-io.png
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jamietanna Looks like there's one on the page now - may have been there before I tried that
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aaronpk i think it doesn't take pngs
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aaronpk i exported mine as a jpg
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2021-05-21.html
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jacky oooh dang
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barnabywalters heh, no prizes for guessing who the professional streamer is in that screenshot
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jacky lol can't be me
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2021-05-21.html
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2021-05-21.html
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2021-05-21.html
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waterpigs.co.uk created /micropub-extensions (+33) "Redirected page to [[Micropub-extensions]]" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Micropub (+8084) "/* How to implement */ Added step-by-step micropub request handling implementation guide" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Micropub (-34) "/* Handling a micropub request */ corrected some indentations" (view diff)
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GWG Who is excited about the upcoming Popup and Create Day?
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lahacker how many people subscribe to the events feed?
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Micropub (+46) "/* Handling a micropub request */ indentation and formatting" (view diff)
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2021-05-21.html
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /2021/Pop-ups/Sessions (+21) "/* Interest */" (view diff)
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GWG I use the ics file
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GWG barnabywalters: Interested in facilitating a Microformats roundtable?
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barnabywalters definitely interested in participating, what would facilitating entail additionally?
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GWG Around July 30th?
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GWG barnabywalters: Just moving the conversation along
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barnabywalters oh yeah I can do that
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barnabywalters around that time sounds fine to me
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GWG barnabywalters: Is the last Saturday in July good for you?
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barnabywalters the 26th? should be, yeah
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GWG I forget what timezone you are in, but we usually have our events at 10 or 11am Pacific
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GWG barnabywalters: That's the last Saturday in June
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GWG We have a session that day already on private data
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barnabywalters oops you’re right. 31st it is then
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GWG https://events.indieweb.org/
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GWG I'll add it in
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GWG See, two months booked already
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barnabywalters yeah mid-morning for the US is early-evening for me, so that’s fine
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GWG Now I can start recruiting for August
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[schmarty] ahaha just finally caught my name being dropped in the IndieWeb Podcast Ep 15 from Sept 27 2020 😂
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GWG aaronpk: Can I rope you into Microsub on August 28th?
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GWG [schmarty]: We did?
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barnabywalters we have a podcast now?
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GWG It's so long ago I don't remember
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[schmarty] i have a Wednesday evening podcast break for the next 2 weeks so HWC is much more likely
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GWG By the way, it's An Indieweb Podcast, not The
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[schmarty] GWG: it was in the last ~3 minutes when talking IWC/HWC events
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[schmarty] sorry, yes, An IndieWeb Podcast Ep 15
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Loqi [[Template:W3C_standards]] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:W3C_standards&diff=1024377983&oldid=prev Ezlev: added IWABG
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@ochtendgrijs ↩️ Ik las ook nog: https://indieweb.org/self_hosting > As long as you have your own domain and can export your data, you can move between hosting companies and locations without needing to tell people who visit your website that anything has changed. (twitter.com/_/status/1395818280410095617)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Template:barnabywalters (+1) (view diff)
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GWG [schmarty]: I was clarifying for barnabywalters's benefit
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GWG I think he also missed your on hiatus This Week in the Indieweb, audio edition
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GWG Which I miss too,. just in a different way
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[chrisaldrich] I subscribe to the events calendar into my google calendar.
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Loqi misses too too
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barnabywalters misses Mrs Tutu too
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2021-05-21.html
[KevinMarks], jamietanna and [tantek] joined the channel
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[tantek] barnabywalters, re: microformats facilitation, moving things along, how familiar are you with the processes we have in place for mf2 parser issues and mf2 vocab issues (and how they're different)?
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[tantek] I ask because without that familiarity, there is too high of a likelihood of getting "agreement" in a meeting on something without actually having taken the necessary (agreed upon and essential for various methodological reasons) steps
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barnabywalters if they’ve changed significantly in the last five years, then not familiar. are they documented somewhere?
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[tantek] the fact that you have to ask that answers the question
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[tantek] they are literally documented in the most obvious local to the subject place
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barnabywalters yeah that’s why I was hesitant to facilitate
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barnabywalters probably better done by someone who’s been more actively working on mf2 issues recently
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[tantek] it's ok to facilitate from a position of unfamiliarity, as long as you are conscious of that and take care of walking folks through such unfamiliar things
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barnabywalters well all the mf2 related knowledge from before is still up there somewhere
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barnabywalters hence asking if there have been any significant chances in process in the last years
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[tantek] in a broader sense, we are all at various stages of learning / expertise, and the important thing is being very cognizant of where you are yourself so you can do the best in context
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[tantek] there has been some yes, and there are further improvements we can make
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barnabywalters re “obvious local to the subject place” — https://microformats.org/wiki/issues? https://microformats.org/wiki/process? somewhere else?
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[tantek] even more local to the subject would be each technology / spec itself
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barnabywalters the most recent issue on /issues is from 2010, so I guess that’s not it
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[tantek] whereas /process and /issues top level is about microformats as whole, community, ecosystem, meta, design etc.
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barnabywalters I was aware of https://github.com/microformats/microformats2-parsing/issues, but the processes aren’t documented there, only the issues themselves
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barnabywalters so I’m still not entirely clear about the obviousness of the issue process documentation
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barnabywalters or is it called change control now? https://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing#change_control
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2021-05-21.html
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GWG barnabywalters: That's what we discussed at the last meeting...we didn't quite make the progress I hoped
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barnabywalters well, I’m happy to participate in the session in any capacity. Would prefer not to be the one running things due to my absence, but would fulfil that social role and defer to others for process decisions if necessary
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barnabywalters GWG: is there a writeup of the last mf meeting somewhere?
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barnabywalters would be useful for catching up
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gRegorLove https://indieweb.org/2020/Pop-ups/Microformats I think there's video archived somewhere?
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gRegorLove Ah there it is, missed the link
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barnabywalters this one perhaps? https://indieweb.org/2020/Pop-ups/Microformats#Agenda
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barnabywalters ah thanks gRegorLove
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gRegorLove I need to review it myself, wasn't able to make that.
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gRegorLove I'm interested in the next mf2 session
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gRegorLove almost 3.5 hours, whew
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GWG barnabywalters: Yes
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barnabywalters heh yeah I think I’ll stick to reading the write-up
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barnabywalters I’m actually already familiar with a bunch of these issues
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GWG gRegorLove: I think putting it on the schedule for July gives us time to actually figure out some stuff
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GWG barnabywalters: We didn't get to a lot of them because we talked about change control a lot
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barnabywalters I see
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GWG barnabywalters: I had expected it to be like the earlier Micropub session where we very quickly blew through a lot of extensions
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gregorlove.com edited /2020/Pop-ups/Microformats (+183) "videoduration template, minor formatting" (view diff)
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GWG I think Microformats needs much more work to get there
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barnabywalters well most of the mp extensions are in quite early stages of stability, right?
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GWG barnabywalters: MP change control is... did 3 different people implement it as a client, 3 as a server... it's stable
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GWG And we got to move to discussing refinements
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barnabywalters yeah my impression was that the process is a little less rigorous than the mf2 process
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GWG barnabywalters: But we didn't accept anything half baked.
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GWG So I wonder if we can get Microformats a bit less difficult
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barnabywalters sure, that makes sense
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GWG Some of these issues have been lingering for 5 years or more
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barnabywalters eh, I think there’s a big difference in rigour required for defining an optional extension to a protocol, and making changes to a mf2 vocabulary
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GWG barnabywalters: I'm not expecting us to solve every problem in 120 minutes
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barnabywalters but at least looking through e.g. https://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry#Proposed_Additions, there are several properties there which have multi-implementation support
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GWG My hope is to solve 2
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2021-05-21.html
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[tantek] it takes rigor to keep microformats "micro", that's part of the challenge
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jacky heh
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barnabywalters [tantek]: re mf wiki troll fatigue: I’m curious to what degree the lack of recent activity on /issues is to do with troll burnout compared to that page being about vocabs which aren’t actively worked on any more
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barnabywalters navigating the mf wiki, I do wonder if it’s starting to suffer a little from classic microformats topics living in the top level, and mf2 stuff mostly being namespaced behind microformats2-* pages
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barnabywalters e.g. issues vs microformats2-issues
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[tantek] barnabywalters, once troll burnout happened, it was enough for the regulars in the community to slowly start showing up less often, then fade away, then things got stuck in their state
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[tantek] btw this is why a bunch of us early on put up very specific barriers in the IndieWeb community to discourage certain kinds of "drive-by" "entitled talker" participants
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[tantek] for those of you wondering about the whole Creator / Apprentice thing back in the day etc.
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barnabywalters yeah I totally get it. we had plenty of similar drive-by participants in IRC years back
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[tantek] we literally discouraged "entitled talker" types by making it clear that they would be considered "beginner" participants, and entitled talkers never want to think of themselves that way so they mostly self-selected out
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[tantek] it was quite effective at deflecting a lot of toxicity without the community having to do explicit emotional labor
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[tantek] heck we didn't even have/use that term (emotional labor) back in the microformats days
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barnabywalters but I don’t see the lack of *recent* activity on /issues as being related to that
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gRegorLove Just to clarify, when you say /issues you mean the microformats github?
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barnabywalters ah no, sorry, I’m talking about https://microformats.org/wiki/issues
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barnabywalters the page we were discussing in #microformats before the discussion took a more meta turn
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gRegorLove Yeah, guess I'm confused by the meta turn.
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2021-05-21.html
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GWG Was the meta part me recruiting barnabywalters for a July popup? So we have two months to prep?
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GWG I have to create some companion wiki pages for the new events I've put on the calendar
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Loqi [New Event] david.shanske.com created "Jul 31, 2021 11:00am July Pop-Up: microformats2 Issues Resolution Session" https://events.indieweb.org/HNZjWjoQGYyo
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Loqi Just generated this week's newsletter! You still have a few minutes to make changes, and I'll re-generate it 10 minutes before it gets sent out at 3pm Pacific time. https://indieweb.org/this-week/2021-05-21.html
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Loqi Generated the final version of the newsletter! This will be sent out at 3pm Pacific time. https://indieweb.org/this-week/2021-05-21.html
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@indiewebcamp This week in the #indieweb https://indieweb.org/this-week/2021-05-21.html (twitter.com/_/status/1395865749009289216)
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