#meta 2021-11-16
2021-11-16 UTC
[snarfed], Agnessa[d], wackycity[d], maxwelljoslyn[d], hans1963[d], grantcodes[d], Darius_Dunlap[d], Matt2, Matt3 and [snarfed]1 joined the channel
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petermolnar I scrolled up on that tweet, closed it when it didn't want to show me the thread starter in 3 (!) loads and when I spotted the word "fungible"
# petermolnar (the one about Loqi)
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@vgr A bit off topic, but I thought this note I just posted on the @yak_collective discord might be of more general interest to Web3 crowd re: post-Discord social coordination tooling. Poses a "mangrove" UX problem to create something that's somewhere between a stream and garden UX. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FEQqBNMVEAIsXjq.png (twitter.com/_/status/1460338562231013376)
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[KevinMarks] Venkatash has a thoughtful blog at https://www.ribbonfarm.com/
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@enkiv2 Random link from the archives: "POSSE - IndieWeb" https://web.archive.org/web/20190215072224/https://indieweb.org/POSSE originally retrieved Fri Feb 15 07:22:24 EST 2019 (twitter.com/_/status/1460603237564915722)
[grantcodes], [Paul_Walk], cadeyrn[d], chrwahl[d] and P1000[d] joined the channel
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[chrisaldrich] !march
[jacky] joined the channel
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@anildash ↩️ Glitch isn't a "no code" tool, so you don't have to be limited to just the colors or links that are chosen for you. Want your link page to embed a video? Want #indieweb features on your page? Have an alternate payment system you like? You can make what you want to see. (twitter.com/_/status/1460698438698426370)
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edgeduchess[d] Has there ever been an initiative to write really good "getting started" documentation for the "IndieWeb"?
# edgeduchess[d] I haven't looked deeply at them, so I'll ask a generic question: are you satisfied with their current state?
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aaronpk let me see if i can find some https://indieweb.org/Category:Sessions
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Loqi Get started on the indieweb by connecting with the indiewebcamp community, getting a personal domain, a place for your content, and setting up your home page and other indieweb essentials https://indieweb.org/Getting_Started
# edgeduchess[d] mmmhhhh
# edgeduchess[d] True
# edgeduchess[d] Was fundraising to get them written professionally ever considered?
# edgeduchess[d] To explain the origin of the thought: I think the Web3 debacle is a great chance to bring more people that have been sensitized to the need for decentralization but don't like the blockchain into IndieWeb
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[schmarty] different folks have also tried different approaches. for example: https://indiewebguides.org/
# edgeduchess[d] but the best way to do that is to have some serious DevRel/outreach effort
# edgeduchess[d] oh that's interesting
# edgeduchess[d] mmh it's not very complete
# [KevinMarks] also indiewebify.me is another attempt
# edgeduchess[d] I guess a further meta question I have then is... how do people in this group generally see outreach efforts? Is there any centralized (heh) strategy?
# edgeduchess[d] (I'm very new, will try to start popping in into meet ups asap, so I apologize if I'm asking basic stuff)
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capjamesg[d] Great questions edgeduchess!
# capjamesg[d] I like the feel of the IndieWeb guide that [schmarty] linked to.
# capjamesg[d] In that it feels a bit more choose your own path vs. everything on one page.
# capjamesg[d] I would love clear docs broken down by intent. I think the wiki is such a valuable resource but I have mainly discovered it through this chat.
# aaronpk clear example of why a single "getting started" guide isn't really possible: are you talking to someone who wants to sign up for a service or at most do a one-click install at some provider, or are you talking to someone who is going to cobble together a static site generator, or are you talking to someone who is building a website from scratch?
# edgeduchess[d] well, who do we want to talk to?
# edgeduchess[d] that's not a strategic answer 🙂
# edgeduchess[d] i think in an ideal world yes, but in a practical world, what guide would be the most impactful to write for "our goals"?
# edgeduchess[d] Assuming the main goal is to help the IndieWeb grow, and assuming we can write a guide for ONE specific public, what should that be?
# edgeduchess[d] I think that's a valid take
# edgeduchess[d] Generally if you see it as a matter of "ideal target audience" technical people who know enough tech to build their own project, are dissatisfied with the current status quo, and want to join the IndieWeb would be my choice.
# edgeduchess[d] I think there's a lot of people that fit that category that simply don't have an ideal place to start.
# capjamesg[d] I agree. There are too many intents to address them all easily, hence what we have right now.
# capjamesg[d] aaronpk I love those tutorials.
# edgeduchess[d] yeah those are good tutorials
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[jeremycherfas] For another point of view, I think it would be great if WithKnown got enough love to enable me to recommend it as a good starting point alternative to micro.blog
# capjamesg[d] I haven’t really thought about how I can encourage IndieWeb technologies more from my website.
# capjamesg[d] I guess “why X” posts might be worth writing. I liked doing one on microformats.
# capjamesg[d] Relmeauth would be next.
# capjamesg[d] Maybe.
# [jeremycherfas] WithKnown has the great benefit of having all the indieweb blocks in place and ready to go. But since the hosted option stopped, it takes quite a bit of effort.
# capjamesg[d] I think an all in one solution is a great way of getting people onboard with IndieWeb tech.
# capjamesg[d] It eliminates the need to sign up to lots of different services when you just want to play around.
# capjamesg[d] Or, alternatively, one may be happy with an all in one place solution for many other reasons!
# capjamesg[d] micro.blog is another good entry point.
# edgeduchess[d] I agree that all in one solutions are great, and if we have them they should be featured prominently
# edgeduchess[d] but going back to a target audience of "technical people doing their own project" I think that while blog articles are great, a centralized getting started guide would be the best resource to have
# capjamesg[d] edgeduchess++ for the discussion point. Very thought provoking!
# capjamesg[d] I think those developer guides would be useful.
# edgeduchess[d] - What technologies does it use for its experience?
# edgeduchess[d] what I personally would want:
# edgeduchess[d] - A overview of a modern "IndieWeb" blog.
# edgeduchess[d] - Which are stable and proven? Which are optional?
# edgeduchess[d] - A high level description of each technology
# edgeduchess[d] - What are the pre-existing implementations?
# edgeduchess[d] - What are some good articles to read to learn more?
# edgeduchess[d] - What are the gotchas to know?
# edgeduchess[d] capjamesg[d]: Thank you! I've been working a lot on figuring out how to get my own indie project off the ground and I'm learning a lot on strategy 🙂
# capjamesg[d] We’re always here to help!
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[chrisbergr] It's in the name. IndieWeb. For one it is enough to come here to the wiki via IndieAuth, the other wants to completely replace all social networks with their web page. Some are doing cool things, others are inspired and copy what they like. The people here have so wonderfully diverse pages, just click through the webring.
# [chrisbergr] More helpful would be in my eyes e.g. "Instructions for BuildingBlock X with CMS Y" And for that the interested parties must already know what this is about.
# capjamesg[d] Yeah. “A Guide to Webmentions for Jekyll” or “MicroPub for WordPress Tutorial”.
# capjamesg[d] All in one list.
# capjamesg[d] Do we need IndieWeb-DevRel as a channel! Just kidding 😂
# capjamesg[d] I’d love to write an overview of IndieWeb standards at some point. It took me quite a while to learn the names of all of them. Yet they are all so cool (at least to me).
# [chrisbergr] I guess if you ask around what the IndieWeb actually is, you'll hear a lot of different definitions.
# capjamesg[d] Which isn’t a bad thing because we do a lot.
# capjamesg[d] But it makes speaking to people harder because there are so many audiences to consider.
# capjamesg[d] What are generations?
# Loqi Generations was a 2014-era summary of a spectrum of potential IndieWeb adopters (beyond the oversimplified developer/user dichotomy) in a series of clusters that were expected to progressively adopt the IndieWeb for themselves and help onboard others; subsequently the community grew, both across generations & in other ways, and is working on replacing it with something more inclusive and up to date https://indieweb.org/generations
# aaronpk capjamesg[d]: PRs to https://spec.indieweb.org are welcome!
# edgeduchess[d] interesting
# [chrisbergr] What is IndieMark?
# Loqi IndieMark is a set of metrics for measuring the indieweb-ness of a site, and a step-by-step approach to incrementally building IndieWeb features for your site, and as such is currently written for folks who are comfortable with web development (Generation 1 and perhaps some 2) https://indieweb.org/IndieMark
# capjamesg[d] The generations page may need updated a bit.
# capjamesg[d] I think indiewebify is good for being an actionable starting point.
# capjamesg[d] But maybe it could go further.
# [chrisbergr] I see IndieMark as kind of a guide. But everyone has to decide for themselves what they want from it....
# capjamesg[d] aaronpk good reminder! I’ll think of what I can do. Anything you’d like to see?
# edgeduchess[d] aaronpk: oh this is a great starting point
# edgeduchess[d] I don't have time for it, but I almost want to make an indieweb carrd page
# edgeduchess[d] it's totally not "indieweb" but there's so many people that use carrd for eye-catching graphic pages that summarize topics
# [chrisbergr] What is carrd?
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "carrd" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "carrd is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# Seb[d] the nice thing about IndieWeb is that its also decentralised in what people think it is, which makes it, I think, very resilient because there will always be some definition of it that still exists.
# Seb[d] but it does make for harder onboarding since there is no 'app to install'
# edgeduchess[d] I've been lurking in crypto-twitter to see what the discussions are like, and there was a bunch of people on the DAO side discovering that decentralized organizations are more successful with centralized leadership
# edgeduchess[d] I've been thinking about that a lot
# edgeduchess[d] (not that I'm suggesting that, I'm just saying it in agreement with your point)
# edgeduchess[d] does "successful in achieving their goals" work?
# Seb[d] I don't think we have goals but we have principles?
# Seb[d] individuals can have goals with IndieWeb or for their own site, but I don't think there is a masterplan for the community
# edgeduchess[d] - https://slagl0rd.carrd.co/
# edgeduchess[d] I have been trying to find carrds that are specifically about projects to explain better, but it's hard. Here's some carrd websites if you've never seen them though:
# edgeduchess[d] - https://itsyot.carrd.co/
# edgeduchess[d] - https://xenscominfo.carrd.co/
# edgeduchess[d] - https://itsyot.carrd.co/
# edgeduchess[d] [edit] I have been trying to find carrds that are specifically about projects to explain better, but it's hard. Here's some carrd websites if you've never seen them though:
# edgeduchess[d] - https://slagl0rd.carrd.co/
# edgeduchess[d] - https://xenscominfo.carrd.co/
# edgeduchess[d] I find them really interesting because it's basically the modern version of "making your own personal website"
# edgeduchess[d] for kpop fans especially
# edgeduchess[d] there's not really technical skills involved, it's all WYSIWG, but it really brings me back to making shrine pages for fictional characters when I was 13
# edgeduchess[d] it's for any type of single page app, and yes it's been used a lot for that
# edgeduchess[d] I have heard about glitch, I'm very curious
# edgeduchess[d] I should take some time to explore that
# edgeduchess[d] Seb[d]: is having a masterplan something that you believe the more involved community is interested in at all?
# [chrisbergr] I am working on the next version of my website, then there will be a .com and a .de domain for the two languages. The URL of my current page will also be a pure "link in bio" page.
# [chrisbergr] But I would like to have that in my own hand.
# [chrisbergr] That's my name, Loqi 🙂
# Seb[d] edgeduchess[d] please note that replies are not synced well to the other gateways, see https://chat.indieweb.org/meta/2021-11-16#bottom better to mention a name :)
# Seb[d] but I have no idea
# edgeduchess[d] oh thank you, I didn't know that!
# Seb[d] (ah it did translate the reply to a mention in my name, nice)
# edgeduchess[d] yeah that's nice, good to know
# edgeduchess[d] anyway, it feels to me like "increased adoption of IndieWeb technologies/platforms" could be a goal to rally people behind
# Seb[d] yes, but as much as I would want that to be a reality, I also live with the idea that there's only so much I can do about it.
# Seb[d] in the end I resign to be a tinkerer, making things for myself and sometimes sharing some tools.
# edgeduchess[d] It's definitely not easy, and not definitely anything that one solves on their own
# edgeduchess[d] but I personally know at least many fandom people are primed for more independent spaces, and I just wish it were easier for them
# edgeduchess[d] so I think there's definitely chances to make more impact (which is what I'm building towards personally), and this is a really good moment for targeted efforts
# edgeduchess[d] but I also want to make sure to say it'don't
# edgeduchess[d] oops
# edgeduchess[d] but I also want to make sure to say it's not my intention to come here and tell people who've been doing this longer than me what to do, I'm mostly just interested in understanding how people here think about this stuff
# [chrisbergr] These fandom people you refer to, do they have some technical understanding? And the will to host a website?
# edgeduchess[d] some of them yes
# edgeduchess[d] I believe with better tooling/more outreach effort, more of them would
# edgeduchess[d] I'm actually working on a project to start a discord server specifically for people in fandom learning to code/making their own websites which I hope will be a good platform to better understand what's needed there
# [chrisbergr] If setting up WordPress is an option, there is an IndieWeb plugin that suggests many more plugins to realize many of the building blocks. Otherwise there is withknown.com, but I don't know the current state of the project.
# edgeduchess[d] I've talked with people about setting up WordPress but I believe they find it too clunky for their goals
# edgeduchess[d] I think generally they get overwhelmed easily, and WP has a lot of legacy
# edgeduchess[d] But I actually should do a "why are you not using WP" survey cause I asked in the past but don't have a centralized place to dig up answers
# [chrisbergr] What is known?
# Loqi Known is an open publishing / community platform project https://indieweb.org/known
# [chrisbergr] Maybe this is an option
# edgeduchess[d] I'm going to post about it on my forum and see if people have heard of it/what they think
# edgeduchess[d] (you can click around on Boba, but beware there's a lot of NSFW)
# edgeduchess[d] they use neocities a lot, and the other day were talking about zonelets: https://v0.boba.social/!h4x0rz/thread/a156133c-193c-4519-81ae-a7d2a5d47a6a
# edgeduchess[d] (you can click around on Boba, but beware there's a lot of NSFW)
# edgeduchess[d] [edit] they use neocities a lot, and the other day were talking about zonelets: https://v0.boba.social/!h4x0rz/thread/a156133c-193c-4519-81ae-a7d2a5d47a6a
# aaronpk GWG: I added video embed for recordings of events! https://events.indieweb.org/5y88zAw4LtO9
# Loqi [Event Updated] aaronparecki.com updated "Oct 16, 2021 7:30am IndieAuth 2 Popup Session" changed video_url, description "add video and link to notes on wiki" https://events.indieweb.org/event/292/history/960/diff
# Loqi [Event Updated] aaronparecki.com updated "Aug 28, 2021 11:00am IndieAuth Popup Session" changed video_url, description "added video and link to wiki notes" https://events.indieweb.org/event/255/history/961/diff
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@FriendlinessDev ↩️ I quite like the https://indieweb.org/IndieAuth model, where your personal profile includes all the ways you can identify yourself. Including public/private key pair via PGP/GPG as an option. (twitter.com/_/status/1460740199357558792)
# Loqi [Event Updated] aaronparecki.com updated "May 15, 2021 11:00am Webmentions Beyond Webmention.io" changed video_url https://events.indieweb.org/event/234/history/962/diff
# [tantek]1 agree with the various points folks have made about the multifaceted challenges about creating good "Getting Started" docs/tutorials
# [tantek]1 the even bigger challenge is maintaining / updating them
# [tantek]1 that's where the "pay someone professional to do it" falls apart, because either you end up with something frozen in time that no one has the time to update, or you end up signing up for paying people continuously to keep updating them and that's a very different kind of organization
# [tantek]1 what is link in bio
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "link in bio" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "link in bio is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# [tantek]1 hmm thought we had pages for it
# [tantek]1 what is linktree
# Loqi Linktree is a site for publishing a flat list of links at a short vanity path (like Twitter and other social media silos) for what appears to be for the sole purpose of seeming to provide multiple links from social media profiles like Instagram which only allow one clickable link in your profile https://indieweb.org/Linktree
