#meta 2021-12-15

2021-12-15 UTC
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tantek.com edited /maps (+415) "another US states and territories map snapshot, same article" (view diff)
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tracydurnell.com edited /year_in_review (+966) "/* Silo Examples */ add spotify and last.fm examples" (view diff)
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tracydurnell.com edited /year_in_review (+584) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ add my year in review posts as example" (view diff)
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[tantek] tracydurnell++
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Loqi tracydurnell has 11 karma in this channel over the last year (15 in all channels)
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jamesg.blog edited /paper_website (+22) "/* See Also */" (view diff)
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jamesg.blog edited /printed_website (+59) "/* See Also */" (view diff)
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jamesg.blog edited /paper_website (+835) (view diff)
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[chrisaldrich] personal library << List of Goodreads alternatives: https://www.libreture.com/blog/alternatives-goodreads/
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Loqi ok, I added "List of Goodreads alternatives: https://www.libreture.com/blog/alternatives-goodreads/" to the "See Also" section of /personal_library https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=78377&oldid=78358
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loqi.me created /reuse (+118) "prompted by voxpelli and dfn added by voxpelli" (view diff)
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kodfabrik.se edited /reuse (+75) (view diff)
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kodfabrik.se edited /reuse (+520) (view diff)
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@voxpelli ↩️ I do in general love the wikis of @indiewebcamp and @microformats and their respective approaches https://indieweb.org/wikifying + https://microformats.org/wiki/process Though few other wikis I have come across has been as open for contributions, often being guarded with unclear contribution flows (twitter.com/_/status/1471086186353594373)
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@Cambridgeport90 ↩️ Ah. I'm still trying to determine what I want to do with my site. It's running on http://Micro.blog right now, but I have a toss up between @Withknown and Wordpress at the moment (Until CofoundryCMS can support Indieweb, that is). (twitter.com/_/status/1471103140262862853)
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sebastiangreger.net edited /pronunciation (+463) "/* See also */ Two links on why/how" (view diff)
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@anildash ↩️ Fully agree with this point. There is so much prior art about decentralization being ignored. But most of the fediverse/indieweb folks I see have not engaged with decentralization fans to say "we've got stuff that's better/cheaper/already works". (twitter.com/_/status/1471155237373329411)
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@voxpelli ↩️ This is why I like the focus of @indiewebcamp. That it doesn’t focus on a technical decentralization but on who needs to be empowered and builds out from that. We need to empower indie developers and a plurality of approaches For that we need interoperability, not blockchains. (twitter.com/_/status/1471161647138054150)
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manton.org edited /Planning (+144) "/* Austin */" (view diff)
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@voxpelli ↩️ Longetivy is also a core principle there https://indieweb.org/principles, and blockchains have no proven longevity whatsoever + previous attempts at federated social networks (identica / statusnet / OStatus) are also lost. Ones personal sites, ones indie presence, is still there though (twitter.com/_/status/1471162793739141125)
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kimberlyhirsh.com edited /User:Kimberlyhirsh.com (-278) "/* kimberlyhirsh.com */" (view diff)
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kimberlyhirsh.com edited /User:Kimberlyhirsh.com (+281) "/* kimberlyhirsh.com */" (view diff)
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@voxpelli ↩️ The @indiewebcamp movement at https://indieweb.org/ is largely a technology independent movement to empower independent creators to create their own presence online, guided by a set of core principles: https://indieweb.org/principles (twitter.com/_/status/1471163679215439875)
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@anildash ↩️ And the efforts generally referred to as the “fediverse” that spun out of these communities are thriving and well worth investigating. (twitter.com/_/status/1471164257815482371)
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kimberlyhirsh.com edited /User:Kimberlyhirsh.com (-131) "/* kimberlyhirsh.com */" (view diff)
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@anildash ↩️ Yep, though I think most people who want one to succeed want to see the other thrive as well. (twitter.com/_/status/1471165489179250691)
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@voxpelli ↩️ I'm pretty sure the "fediverse" refers to the federated social network that is Mastodon (where every node typically serves many people), whereas the IndieWeb instead focuses on a decentralized, not federated, social network where every actor controls their own node (twitter.com/_/status/1471164853796626433)
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@ChrisAldrich ↩️ Build your own?? Lots of ideas and other alternatives for thought here: https://indieweb.org/commonplace_book (twitter.com/_/status/1471164832984436740)
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@aaronpk ↩️ I've implemented ActivityPub directly into my website, so my website is its own ActivityPub instance in the Fediverse. So there's definitely some overlap and grey areas between the two, but yeah generally Fediverse refers to the ActivityPub model of many ppl on one instance. (twitter.com/_/status/1471166630117789704)
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@voxpelli ↩️ Yes and no, I know that I myself at least wouldn’t be happy to have the IndieWeb referenced as a “fediverse”, but then again, I’m a bit burnt after I implemented OStatus for Flattr back in the days only to see the very downside of a federated approach when it comes to longevity… (twitter.com/_/status/1471166151073927168)
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@voxpelli ↩️ I believe eg. @pfefferle and @schnarfed also works quite a bit across both (twitter.com/_/status/1471167097728385025)
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@thisgoesnowhere ↩️ This sounds super interesting! Have you written about it? (twitter.com/_/status/1471174019462406151)
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@aaronpk ↩️ I haven't written anything specific about it because it's mostly a bunch of low-level gibberish around http signing and creating funny JSON blobs, but I did spin out the code into a standalone service I've used for other bots https://github.com/aaronpk/Nautilus (twitter.com/_/status/1471175395437207552)
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@voxpelli ↩️ There is some written here: https://indieweb.org/ActivityPub#IndieWeb_Examples Overall very many use cases and peoples solutions / implementations to solve them are documented in that wiki (twitter.com/_/status/1471174698801188866)
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aaronpk busy day on twitter
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GWG Just reminding people we have an HWC tonight.
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GWG You can even do a walk-on and just say hi
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[KevinMarks] did it break google calendar?
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tantek.com edited /deviantART (+36) "include acquisition in dfn, typo" (view diff)
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@mastermark ↩️ An observation; 'succesful' examples of 'prior art' have a common pattern of having been non-commercial. And of having ended when commercial exploitation began (eg ad driven walled gardens killing blogoverse, AOL killing BBS) 1/2 (twitter.com/_/status/1471182847985733641)
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@_am1t I’m pretty sure the “fediverse” refers to the federated social network that is Mastodon (where every node typically serves many people), whereas the IndieWeb instead focuses on a decentralized, not federated, social network where every actor controls ... https://www.amitgawande.com/2021/12/15/im-pretty-sure.html (twitter.com/_/status/1471182815177936896)
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aaronpk wow blogoverse... that's a word i haven't heard in a long time
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[tantek] because it's a new made up word
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[KevinMarks] blogosphere
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[tantek] that's blogosphere for those who remember
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[tantek] lol
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[tantek] aaronpk++ for this I'm 😂 💀 https://twitter.com/aaronpk/status/1471156544226004998
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@aaronpk @anildash @DannyPage oh we've tried, but then the glowing eyeballs come out yelling and screaming and it just isn't a productive discussion for anyone (twitter.com/_/status/1471156544226004998)
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Loqi aaronpk has 27 karma in this channel over the last year (117 in all channels)
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@CircleReader ↩️ I *really* hope we can get good #GenesisWP #IndieWeb support! Looks like there's a good start, but I'd love to see the Genesis Theme Framework listed here: https://indieweb.org/WordPress (twitter.com/_/status/1471183569347297285)
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@CircleReader So, way back when, I tried encoding hReview microformats into some #WordPress book-blog posts, and even styling them like blocks — but I was never a full time front end web dev, just an enthusiastic learner & believer in what has now, apparently, become the #IndieWeb community. (twitter.com/_/status/1471183567438950400)
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@mastermark ↩️ So, hypothesis: part of our (emotional?) reaction to web3 arises from this experience. From a scarred, bitter revulsion at the crass $$$ focus, which from experience looks like the failed *end state* to us, not a promising new dawn... 2/2 (twitter.com/_/status/1471183425470177287)
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[tantek] what is a canoe?
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Loqi canoe is a long chain of replies on twitter, with many people @'d into it https://indieweb.org/canoe
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[tantek] would be interesting to do comparisons of average longevity (or page/site half-life), e.g. https: pages vs ipfs: pages
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[tantek] indieweb sites vs "fediverse" nodes
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[tantek] per the points made by voxpelli
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aaronpk fediverse != ipfs
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[KevinMarks] we did try 'The Giant Brain' for a bit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LJc8nqouPM
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[tantek] aaronpk, sorry to clarify: *within the httpsphere AKA "the web",* compare half-life of indieweb sites vs "fediverse" nodes
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aaronpk that sounds like a lot of work to track but would certainly be interesting
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[tantek] IPFS is part of the hashisphere
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[tantek] yeah it sounds like a snarfed project 😄
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@voxpelli ↩️ I disagree with your retelling of history. As I see it, new patterns gets established, then standardized. The new pattern which killed the blogosphere was the social features. Usually it would have been standardized and the pendulum swinged back, but the network effect stopped it (twitter.com/_/status/1471185599302356996)
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aaronpk i missed this earlier 😂 https://twitter.com/blaine/status/1471157877914042372
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@blaine True decentralization doesn't involve a conceptually centralized blockchain, change my mind. (twitter.com/_/status/1471157877914042372)
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voxpelli I didn’t 😂
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voxpelli I believe all original content of OStatus networks are essentially gone from internet, right? Identica and StatusNet both being off the Internet
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voxpelli Per the adactio magnolia experience: If you don’t host it, you will lose it.
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Zegnat [tantek]: Interesting point in the main channel. I would never discuss what IndieWeb principles are in -meta. As -meta is for community resources and organising. In my mind it is not supposed to be about IndieWeb the concept itself?
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[tantek] voxpelli++ indeed
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Loqi voxpelli has 4 karma in this channel over the last year (8 in all channels)
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[tantek] what is discuss
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Loqi Join the #indieweb discussion via the web, Slack, IRC, Discord, or Matrix clients now with additional channels for dev, wordpress, and meta specific chat! https://indieweb.org/discuss
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@voxpelli ↩️ The problem isn’t that the social networks are commercial, the problem is that Metcalfe’s law essentially works against any kind of plurality within social networks, requiring interoperability from the start, which few do https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metcalfe%27s_law (twitter.com/_/status/1471187039366389767)
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Zegnat Yeah, from /discuss: "Anything about the indieweb community or shared resources, and community organizing like events: planning events, wiki gardening, wikifying, discussion about the community / discussion channels (IRC, Slack, Loqi) / wiki."
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Zegnat In my mind I always do the question "is this about IndieWeb, or specifically about our community of people". And /principles to me was clearly IndieWeb and not meta talk about the community. Thus #indieweb.
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[tantek] evolving the principles has nothing to with people's personal sites, it's very meta about the community itself
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[tantek] "about our community of people" is clearly meta IMO, since it is abstracted away from what people actually want to do or are directly doing on their personal sites
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Zegnat Exactly. And I do not think /principles are about our specific community.
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[tantek] part of the point of meta is steer abstract conversations *away* from the main channel
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[tantek] huh? they very much are, they formed in our community, are iterated here, and form a good guide for "is this community for me or not"
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[tantek] meta is literally "about" which is fundamentally about abstractions or higher level discussions
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aaronpk if the discussion were introducing the principles to someone new, i'd expect tosee that in the main channel, but if it's talking about whether something should be added, that's clearly meta
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Zegnat That seems like a weird standard to me. If someone comes in asking about our own your data principle, I would say that is part of what makes the indieweb, and discuss it in #indieweb. Seems very weird to me to refer people with an interest in IndieWeb towards #indieweb-meta. But maybe I need to think about it some more.
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[tantek] what aaronpk said
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[tantek] explaining a current principle and how it directly applies or guides what you do on your personal site would be on topic, because of the direct practical application
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@voxpelli ↩️ The IndieWeb is actually interoperable with the existing networks, thanks to the patterns of POSSE and PESOS: https://indieweb.org/POSSE and https://indieweb.org/PESOS (twitter.com/_/status/1471187423443013633)
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[tantek] but yeah, abstract discussions of principles that have nothing to do with a specific site? that's very meta Zegnat
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Zegnat I think I get what you are saying, but I think I always defined #indieweb-meta to be sort of the behind the scenes going ons. Which is also how I understand the defintion on /discuss. So I will have to reshape the split in my mind then, and possibly update the definition.
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aaronpk yes i agree, and i would classify discussion about the principles as "behind the scenes"
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Zegnat I think that is the thing then, I would not. As I feel the IndieWeb is all about figuring out those principles. And the things we do to make this doable (having a wiki, having events, those type of things that are currently mentioned on /discuss) is what the behind the scenes is.
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Zegnat Glad to have identified where my thoughts are different! Now to see how I need to reshape them :D Thanks [tantek], aaronpk!
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boffosocko.com edited /PESOS (+31) "replace pingback in definition; micropub is an actual and more IndieWeb-centric use case; is there evidence of anyone using pingbacks to implement PESOS?; shorten definition for tweetability; de-jargon; links" (view diff)
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[tantek] Zegnat, I think the key principle (so to speak lol) here is keeping the main channel friendly to new folks, and *on topic* for direct improvements to personal sites
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[tantek] thus it's not a question of "does this belong in meta? else use main channel" but rather "does this belong in main channel? else use a different channel, and meta is the new catchall"
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aaronpk speaking of principles, mastodon announced they are moving their discussion from Discourse to GitHub, and some of the open source zealots are mad
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[tantek] lol that sounds like #indieweb-chat aaronpk 😂
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Zegnat Yeah, I guess that is the biggest mental hurdle, [tantek], making -meta my new catchall for nearly everything IndieWeb I discuss these days.
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[chrisaldrich] If anyone is using /Pingback to implement a /PESOS solution, please note it on the page. I've removed it from the definition as I don't think there are any implementations that do that in practice.
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[tantek] Zegnat, would you be ok with me adding clarification about what to discuss related to principles in which channel to the /discuss page?
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aaronpk i may have to drop a link to /principles as a demonstration of how open source doesn't have to be the top guiding principle in a community
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Zegnat Go for it. It will be interesting to see how it goes. I might start to semi-actively ask people to move discussions to -meta more often, and see how that goes as well. I am not sure if the idea of -meta as the community catch-all matches current behaviour at all. Surely does not match mine.
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[tantek] aaronpk, you can go further. focusing on "open source" as a principle is dev-centric, and tends to lead to (and/or attract) plumbing-centric thinking
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[tantek] to be user-centric, and focus on actual user-beneficial features, you have to have user-centric community principles
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capjamesg[d] I have been using meta mainly for community-based discussions (i.e. wikifying, events).
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capjamesg[d] And #indieweb for anything that is about the IndieWeb itself / taking control of your data.
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capjamesg[d] I'm bad for making discussions go to far into the weeds before moving them to #dev.
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tantek.com edited /discuss (+498) "clarify where to chat about principles" (view diff)
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[tantek] ^ Zegnat please review!
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[tantek] capjamesg[d] that sounds pretty right! if it is about about the IndieWeb, that's when you know it belongs in #indieweb-meta 🙂
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[chrisaldrich] In relation to the canoe earlier, I'm pretty sure we documented somewhere on the wiki that in an early popular press article about Mastodon (from Spring 2017, iirc), that already several of the instances mentioned in the article no longer exist. Federation doesn't necessarily improve longevity, particularly at a time before moving data between instances didn't exist.
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capjamesg[d] That is a good point.
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capjamesg[d] I hadn’t thought about that [chrisaldrich].
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[tantek] federation may actually harm longevity, if it is focused on group "nodes"
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[tantek] with centralization, the central actor has a lot of incentive to keep their site going
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[tantek] with indieweb, each individual has a lot of incentive to keep their site going
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Zegnat [tantek]: seems good, though I am not sure it is a good pattern to try and describe under #indieweb what does not go there, rather than making it more clear under #indieweb-meta what goes there? If that makes sense.
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Zegnat Also, typo fix: https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?title=discuss&diff=78393&oldid=78392
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[tantek] with group nodes? it's like a big burden that a volunteer has to shoulder for hundreds (1000s? more?) peope
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[tantek] Zegnat, thanks for the typo fix
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[tantek] it's not a "rather than" but a "do both"
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[tantek] the point about describing under #indieweb what does not go there is to recognize patterns of past examples of things that folks have brought there that haven't been particularly use-centric (as the start of that section strongly encourages)
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[tantek] and yes, it is more helpful to make it more clear under #indieweb-meta what goes there
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@ChrisAldrich ↩️ Social media services with widgets that people can embed into their websites (@SoundCloud, @Goodreads, @Flickr, etc.) should pivot to this sort of model for publishing their users' data. They could still serve as discovery clearinghouses/hubs & serve ads. https://indieweb.org/discovery (twitter.com/_/status/1471201735146295297)
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@ChrisAldrich ↩️ This would help make them less dependent on the major corporate social platforms like Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram for ancillary distribution and engagement. #BridgeAllTheThings #OwnYourData #SetItAndForgetIt Read this thread on my site: https://boffosocko.com/2021/12/15/indieweb-as-a-service-iaas-idea-pesos-from-all-the-silos-with-feeds-using-micropub/ (twitter.com/_/status/1471201736459055105)
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@ChrisAldrich IndieWeb as a Service idea: Imagine a Micropub client that could accept any form of feed (RSS/Atom/JSON/h-entry/etc.) as an input and publish the content to your personal website. #BridgeAllTheThings #OwnYourData #SetItAndForgetIt https://indieweb.org/Micropub (twitter.com/_/status/1471201729895026689)
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@schnarfed ↩️ Yes! Both https://fed.brid.gy/ and, separately, Mastodon/PixelFed support on https://brid.gy/ proper (twitter.com/_/status/1471212745735356418)
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capjamesg[d] Longevity is indeed a good argument for individual ownership vs. federation.
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capjamesg[d] Well said!
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