#meta 2022-09-30
2022-09-30 UTC
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@NoraDotCodes ↩️ i think both are valuable, is i guess all i'm saying. indieweb will adapt better to the glorious anarchist p2p internet better than twitter. (twitter.com/_/status/1575644011074752513)
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@defnotbeka ↩️ like, that's all being done by p2p folx, not indieweb folx, which is really very telling (twitter.com/_/status/1575643538733178880)
# @defnotbeka ↩️ oh for sure! but a lot of the indieweb stuff i see that isnt federated is like.. literally just 20 year old blog tech almost. its very meh (twitter.com/_/status/1575642948489748480)
# @defnotbeka ↩️ im just sort of sore right now because someone showed up in my thread about p2p and cryptographic to complain about Why Not Just Use Indieweb and its like ok do you even hear yourself (twitter.com/_/status/1575644695878725632)
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[tantek]4 I get the "very meh" feels quite often
# [tantek]4 lol "just use IndieWeb", um -> /plurality
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loqi.me created /corporate (+26) "prompted by [tantek]4 and redirect added by [tantek]4" (view diff)
# [tantek]4 Is there anything "prominent" or "specific" on https://indieweb.org/ that is not actually defined on the wiki?
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# @defnotbeka later tonight i'm gonna take indieweb to task (twitter.com/_/status/1575674345048768513)
# [tantek]4 oh boy
# [tantek]4 jacky++ yes that makes sense. +1 to not overlinking. One way to avoid that is to use the Wikipedia Editorial technique of only linking the first mention of a keyword/phrase.
# [tantek]4 before linking from the home page to a specific page, we should make *very* sure that that specific page is broadly user-friendly (i.e. not developer centric jargony) and has well-written clear & concise text
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@holliebutler It surprises me how difficult it is to get into IndieWeb stuff - i.e. it's strange to so strongly believe in an idea but then the actual implementation of it involves all this coding knowledge I just don't have. I wish it were easier for non-techies to do. (twitter.com/_/status/1575680520037421056)
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# @holliebutler Me explaining to programmer husband about IndieWeb:
I agree with it SO much, but then I listen to the conversations actual people are having I understand virtually none of it. Is that weird?
Greg: It's like that XKCD about geochemists...
https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2501:_Average_Familiarity (twitter.com/_/status/1575685842215251970)
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Loqi Just generated the first draft of this week's newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2022-09-30.html I'll generate a draft again tomorrow, so please add to it before then! https://indieweb.org/this-week#How_to
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gRegor !archive https://events.indieweb.org/2022/09/homebrew-website-club-pacific-Kjb616XdH6zX events/2022-09-28-hwc-pacific
# cali.jamesg.blog created /events/2022-09-28-hwc-pacific (+2441) "Created page with " '''<dfn>Homebrew Website Club - Pacific</dfn>''' was an IndieWeb meetup on Zoom held on 2022-09-28. * https://events.indieweb.org/2022/09/homebrew-website-club-pacific-Kj..."" (view diff)
# cali-iwc Created https://indieweb.org/events/2022-09-28-hwc-pacific. Please review the page to ensure the document is correctly formatted and remove any unnecessary text.
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# gRegor !tell GWG Is there a photo to upload for https://events.indieweb.org/2022/09/homebrew-website-club-pacific-Kjb616XdH6zX?
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@kniebes Indieweb vs. Fediverse https://beesbuzz.biz/blog/12455-Indieweb-vs-Fediverse ;) (twitter.com/_/status/1575728014666637313)
# @defnotbeka ↩️ ok indieweb you get a reprieve for tonight, i'm going to sleep (twitter.com/_/status/1575730773415497729)
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[aciccarello] Loqi should reply with "thank you"
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# [tantek]4 Exhaustion thru kindness?
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@juanfernandes Just read: "Am I on the IndieWeb Yet?" https://www.miriamsuzanne.com/2022/06/04/indiweb/ (twitter.com/_/status/1575741596007538693)
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# holliebutler.net created /User:Holliebutler.net (+233) "Created page with "{{Infobox person |name = Hollie Butler |url = https://holliebutler.net |photo_url = https://holliebutler.net/images/me/me2021.jpeg |pronouns = she/her |summary = |elsewhere =..."" (view diff)
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[KevinMarks] So all those criticisms of Mastodon come down to /monoculture and the choice not to use the web model for linking and following
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@whouishere amazed at this article
look, I'm from this very generation, and even though I know I'm more computer literate than most of my colleagues, I didn't know there was that many people from my age that didn't understand something that always was technology 101… https://indieweb.social/@whou/109086964524919247 (twitter.com/_/status/1575800446618374150)
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# Loqi code in the context of the indieweb, refers to source code, code files, typically in a revision control system, like Git, hosted on an indieweb site https://indieweb.org/code_snippet
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# Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2022-09-30.html
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# Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2022-09-30.html
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# Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2022-09-30.html
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@TracyDurnell Come talk personal websites and the #IndieWeb this Sunday 10/2! Everyone's welcome - you don't need to have a website already, and you don't need to be a developer (I'm not!) https://events.indieweb.org/2022/10/galactic-bonus-homebrew-website-club-ARjwtyWM8CjA (twitter.com/_/status/1575883612083232784)
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# Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2022-09-30.html
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# Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2022-09-30.html
jacky joined the channel
# Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2022-09-30.html
jacky joined the channel
# Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2022-09-30.html
# Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2022-09-30.html
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# Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2022-09-30.html
# @defnotbeka ↩️ ok let's talk issues that i have with indieweb
first, let me just preface this with saying that i think indieweb stuff is cool and i do all of my non social media stuff that way. indieweb is good! but... it's super misleading and deceptive actually (twitter.com/_/status/1575930865137332224)
# Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2022-09-30.html
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# @defnotbeka ↩️ so let's look at indieweb on its own terms, what it propagandists itself as. if we go to http://indieweb.org, we get this nice sounding schpiel
wow i'm into these things! that sounds really good! (twitter.com/_/status/1575931503145410560)
# @defnotbeka ↩️ mega fuxking yikes
so let's judge indieweb on its own initial propaganda terms. detangling ourselves from the corporate web??? is that feasible here?
well they promote using wordpress hosting services, and also discuss other hosting options like AWS
so right off the bat no (twitter.com/_/status/1575932552509988865)
# @defnotbeka ↩️ so by its own propaganda, hashtag indieweb simply fails to achieve its own goals
but now lets move on to my own personal agenda (twitter.com/_/status/1575934560478429184)
# @defnotbeka ↩️ another thing is, the indieweb site says that your names are your identites? and links cant break?
well ok but you better not forget to renew your domain name because if you do, then sorry your domain name aint yours anymore and all inbound links are fucked
tough luck sucker! (twitter.com/_/status/1575934370690441221)
# @defnotbeka ↩️ so
indieweb is basically just "blogging from 2007, but maybe with new plugins"
cool, ok uhm (twitter.com/_/status/1575934996027580416)
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# @defnotbeka ↩️ the propaganda and goals of Indieweb are SO FUCKING GOOD
but the actuality of it is basically just "actually the free non-corporate web should only be for technically competent terminally vim/emacs brained dorks who think man pages are amazing and just rtfm you dumb n00b" (twitter.com/_/status/1575936999529148416)
# @defnotbeka ↩️ this is galaxy brain level nerd supremacist horse shit
social media like facebook and tumblr and twitter and so on became popular because its EASY
indieweb is hard as hell
you're LITERALLY telling people to become intimately familiar with how to be a fucking sysadmin (twitter.com/_/status/1575936156016910336)
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# @NoraDotCodes ↩️ that's unnecessarily harsh, in that it implies an attitude of hostility that i have never seen anyone in indieweb spaces exhibit. they're naive, yes, but not hostile. (twitter.com/_/status/1575937334192705536)
# @defnotbeka ↩️ no one is going to look at the choice of Indieweb vs. Twitter and think "ah yes, Indieweb seems best"
unless of course they already know how to do all that shit to begin with
in which case they're probably 90% of the time going to say "i dont need MORE work" (twitter.com/_/status/1575937316714999808)
# Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2022-09-30.html
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# @defnotbeka ↩️ you want corporate free stuff, you have to actually build it, and solve problems, not just tell people "go use some OTHER corporations, and also become a sysadmin"
Indieweb is Just. Not. It. (twitter.com/_/status/1575941470351024128)
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# @defnotbeka ↩️ it's not anti incrementalism
because incrementalism implies change
indieweb is literally just conservatism. there's almost nothing new since 2007, nothing substantively improved or explored. it's just Web 2.0 sentimentalism as a movement (twitter.com/_/status/1575943391308677120)
# @NoraDotCodes ↩️ I have to say that this seems like a flavor of anti-incrementalism i don't love. yes, indieweb (and mastodon, etc) aren't proof against every possible attack, but nothing ever can be because many of those are systemic threats inherent to globalized monopolistic capitalism (twitter.com/_/status/1575942872762720256)
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jacky that feels like a component of /eating-what-you-cook in a way
# @defnotbeka ↩️ except OTHER PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY WORKING ON IT
ok, like, indieweb is behind the curve here, there are LOTS of people actually working to solve those problems (twitter.com/_/status/1575944690184073216)
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[schmarty] lol at the Twitter-flavored toxicity coming off this critique. I guess IndieWeb is set in stone and can't learn or change so 🚮
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@kevinmarks ↩️ You are stating the problems. The indieweb approach is to base durable things on the web. This means DNS, yes. But DNS is a robust system that has substitutible providers at all levels and a mature dispute resolution process. You can buy a domain and switch providers and hosting (twitter.com/_/status/1575946015911182336)
# @NoraDotCodes ↩️ i mean, to be clear, i'm not an indieweb person except in that i, personally, selfhost some things like Matrix. i'm certainly not an activist.
but, with respect, i don't believe that there are easy to use, polished social and comms products that aren't vulnerable to this stuff (twitter.com/_/status/1575945502746894336)
# @defnotbeka ↩️ i'm judging indieweb partially by its own standards and it's own actions ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ (twitter.com/_/status/1575945305224187905)
# Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2022-09-30.html
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# @kevinmarks ↩️ And about the problems you discuss here too - the overhead of sysadmin https://indieweb.org/admin_tax the downsides of silos https://indieweb.org/silo the long list of dead sites https://indieweb.org/site-deaths (twitter.com/_/status/1575947118283730944)
# @kevinmarks ↩️ We list alternative ways of hosting domains, including paid and free ones, including bigco's, but we stress using HTML, and markup designed to let you recover structure from it if your DB goes away. We warn about the problems https://indieweb.org/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/1575946473749250049)
# Loqi Pop-ups are IndieWebCamp Sessions that occur as standalone events, rather than part of an IndieWebCamp https://indieweb.org/Popups
# jacky I do think this session could help as well (not as important as this idea) https://indieweb.org/2022/Pop-ups/Sessions#IndieWeb_and_Activism
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# [schmarty] capjamesg definitely worth revisiting some site organization at the high-level. it's been iterated on a few times before and each time has been a big effort.
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "homepage redesign" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "homepage redesign is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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capjamesg Maybe link to /site-homepage instead?
# Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2022-09-30.html
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# @kevinmarks ↩️ We have thought about it and discussed these things at length before. If you do have new ideas, happy to hear those too, but indieweb is not a magic solution, it's a community iterating on ideas and tools to keep the web more personal. (twitter.com/_/status/1575955436926537728)
# [KevinMarks] Well, it's true, I am always happy to engage. I did it with the old fediverse, with mastodon, dat, tumblr, whoever is interested
# [KevinMarks] bluesky people too'
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# [KevinMarks] I mostly still treat twitter the way I did in 2009, but I do get drawn into UK politics snark a lot these days
# [KevinMarks] they had a schema discussion recently that I was invited to but declined on covid grounds
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@dsocialcommons 🗓️Save the date!🗓️ 📢Friday, September 30th Noon PST 👥dSocial Community Voices #7: Schemas on the dWeb (previously BlueskyCommunity) Speakers 💬 @brxrdr @CPrivacyLabs @vickitardif @google @pjvangarderen @orcfax @pfrazee @blueskystudios @TwitterSpaces🔗 https://twitter.com/i/spaces/1lPKqBrBrynGb https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FdCouNcXwAAdKbt.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/1571941842509242368)
# [KevinMarks] could be interesting, could be too meta
# Loqi Just generated this week's newsletter! You still have a few minutes to make changes, and I'll re-generate it 10 minutes before it gets sent out at 3pm Pacific time. https://indieweb.org/this-week/2022-09-30.html
# Loqi Welcome to News About The IndieWeb where recent notable articles about the IndieWeb are cited and linked to keep you up to date https://indieweb.org/indieweb_news
# [tantek]4 We need to make Get Started even more transparent about which paths are appropriate for which audiences
# [tantek]4 And to not oversell the difficulty of say, using WordPress or Known, or SSGs
# [tantek]4 [KevinMarks] the one additional key thing that would help make your case in replies to threads like that is if all your tweets came from your website and persisted there. We need to be demonstrating that best practice, in practice, in all tweet threads we choose to engage in
# [tantek]4 Eventually at least some folks will realize hey wait a minute, I'm the only one here in these discussions who is "only" using Twitter, everyone else here seems to be using their own site, and the peer pressure / inspiration will motivate them to at least go IndieWeb enough to tweet from their own site
# [tantek]4 That practice of tweeting from your own site will fundamentally alter their perspective and much more IndieWeb will make sense to them. That's the key adoption step IMO with folks who like to rant on Twitter
# [tantek]4 no they do accept DNS as vulnerability, they accept DNS + Twitter as vulnerabilities
# [tantek]4 IndieWeb is saying hey, let us help you remove one of those vulnerabilities at least 🙂
# [tantek]4 that's the way to persuade arguments like this
# [KevinMarks] yes, fair, i need to get notes working on my site in a useful way, the known subdomain isn't that anjy more
# Loqi Generated the final version of the newsletter! This will be sent out at 3pm Pacific time. https://indieweb.org/this-week/2022-09-30.html
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@indiewebcamp This week in the #indieweb https://indieweb.org/this-week/2022-09-30.html (twitter.com/_/status/1575972512671956992)
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# @defnotbeka ↩️ i think there are cultural things at work here. the main groups -- indieweb, p2p, federation -- have particular cultural modes and tropes and such that leads them to not bridge these gaps (twitter.com/_/status/1575972807741083648)
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# @defnotbeka ↩️ nah it's not. it's just a frustration that the increments were seeing aren't a decade old, that's the point. indieweb is a great idea for the year 2008. but it's 2022 (twitter.com/_/status/1575984045493669889)
# Loqi [github] Successfully deployed indieweb/indiewebify-me to https://indiewebify.me
# @defnotbeka ↩️ the functionally elitist nature of indieweb also breeds this horrible insularity that so many backwards projects have (twitter.com/_/status/1575986062723121152)
# @defnotbeka ↩️ if you could wave a wand and kill twitter and facebook and replace them with indieweb links the world would actually be worse until someone fixed the problems of indieweb that i mentioned (twitter.com/_/status/1575985675232346112)
# @defnotbeka ↩️ my critique is that these are the tools of the past not the future and that going indieweb in this was a reversion to an actually worse world if it were widely adopted. like you can't do it, it would be bad to even try (twitter.com/_/status/1575985386039320576)
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# Loqi [github] Successfully deployed indieweb/indiewebify-me to https://indiewebify.me
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