#meta 2023-12-19

2023-12-19 UTC
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boffosocko.com edited /typecast (+1058) "examples; What is the Typosphere article; Classic Typewriter Page; Online Typewriter Groups;" (view diff)
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boffosocko.com edited /typecast (+36) "/* Site Examples */ https://writingball.blogspot.com/" (view diff)
[Murray], [KevinMarks], AramZS, [tantek], marion, [aciccarello] and [Caleb_Hearth] joined the channel
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Loqi [github] Successfully deployed w3c/webmention to https://webmention.net
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[tantek] nice
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Loqi [[Comparison_of_software_and_protocols_for_distributed_social_networking]] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Comparison_of_software_and_protocols_for_distributed_social_networking&diff=1190754232&oldid=prev InternetArchiveBot: Rescuing 2 sources and tagging 0 as dead.) #IABot (v2.0.9.5
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[tantek] ^ aaronpk WDYT of adding a few more notifications from very specific GitHub repos to here, e.g. new issues and PRs, perhaps specifically on the repos for the specs listed in https://spec.indieweb.org/ ?
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[tantek] I don't think they're very noisy right now, and they could be useful to get things merged faster (like implementation reports! I see two other past implementation reports in the Webmention repo for example https://github.com/w3c/webmention/pulls 107 and 114 there)
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aaronpk Yeah for sure
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aaronpk Right now it's tied to the repos that are hosted on the server but I can probably open that up to some more
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Loqi [[Template:W3C_standards]] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:W3C_standards&diff=1190769007&oldid=prev Indefatigable: Bypass redirects so that auto-bolding works
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[tantek] Should we pre-emptively ask in our contribution text (e.g. that says "don't copy from Wikipedia") to not use LLM generated text in contributions?
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[tantek] I liked this: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc9518.html#appendix-A-4 "No large language models were used in the production of this document."
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[tantek] capjamesg ^
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[tantek] right now we have these two bold commands in the edit UI: "*Do not submit copyrighted work without permission!" / "Do not copy text from Wikipedia!"*
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sknebel apparently "to short to trigger Loqi" is the answer ;)
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capjamesg Haha.
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capjamesg Is that a thing?
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capjamesg What is A?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "A" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "A is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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capjamesg :D
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tantek.com edited /definition (+238) "stub a Do not copy from LLM generated text section" (view diff)
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capjamesg What is AI?
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capjamesg Oh come on :D
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capjamesg [tantek] I do have one concern about this as currently worded.
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capjamesg "Please do not use tools like ChatGPT to write a complete definition for the IndieWeb wiki. Tools like ChatGPT should instead be used to guide you to a definition that you think clearly conveys the point you want to make."
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capjamesg I think ChatGPT, et al. could be used to help someone for whom {language} is not their first language get their point across.
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "AI" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "AI is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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capjamesg I don't have any attachment to those exact words, but I think we need a clause for this.
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capjamesg I think the behavior we want to discourage is copying verbatim.
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capjamesg Maybe this is a broader point around content for the wiki, not just for definitions.
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capjamesg (I need input from someone else :D)
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tantek.com edited /wikifying (+628) "/* What not to contribute to the IndieWeb wiki */ Wikipedia or LLM text (except maybe in a quote to demonstrate a problem)" (view diff)
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capjamesg Also potentially relevant: https://jamesg.blog/2022/12/01/indieweb-chatgpt/
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Loqi [preview] The IndieWeb (according to ChatGPT)
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[tantek] capjamesg, I disagree about using ChatGPT to help someone "get their point across".
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[tantek] if someone wants to use ChatGPT to learn a language, that's their prerogative. I'd rather they learn then use their skills to write in their own words.
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[tantek] also, better to contribute to the IndieWeb wiki in languages you are comfortable in, as we have translations
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[tantek] Please review: https://indieweb.org/wikifying#Do_not_copy_from_Wikipedia and the following section https://indieweb.org/wikifying#Do_not_copy_from_LLM_generated_text
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capjamesg "if someone wants to use ChatGPT to learn a language, that's their prerogative." -- that's not related.
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[tantek] it is, in that I'm saying the wiki is not the place to experiment with ChatGPT to get better at using a language.
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capjamesg I used to work with a Ukrainian software team who would sometimes switch to the Ukrainian language to discuss technical details. Precisely communicating technical concepts was easier in their native language.
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capjamesg I can see ChatGPT being used in this sort of arena, where you know _what_ you want to say, but you don't know _exactly how_ to say it.
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[tantek] probably shouldn't contribute automatically translated text either
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[tantek] I bet Wikipedia has guidance for this sort of thing we can look at as prior work
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capjamesg +1
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capjamesg Maybe we're debating a hypothetical here, but I think we should exercise caution.
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[tantek] we're less likely to get such contributions since they're tied to people's domains (their logins on the wiki) but better to make a decision and block it up front than have to deal with it after the fact
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[tantek] it's a hypothetical for us (AFAIK) however it is not a hypothetical in that people are submitting papers etc. that are LLM generated
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capjamesg Agreed.
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capjamesg I'll support the current language but we should revisit it if anyone has concerns.
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capjamesg I don't think we should encourage AI-written text. This community has spent so much time making the wiki wonderful. Text that has been written without proper effort and regard to relevance of all kinds -- AI or otherwise -- is not appreciated.
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capjamesg I wonder if there is a broader rule about "Use your own words" that we could note.
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capjamesg We say don't copy from Wikipedia or ChatGPT. The pattern should be "Use your own words to express a relevant definition that will be helpful to readers of the wiki."
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capjamesg I think we can do more by empowering people that this is a place where sincere, personal contributions are greatly valued and awarded.
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gRegor aaronpk, maybe an issue with github chat logs, last commit 5 days ago: https://github.com/indieweb/indieweb-chat-archive/commits/main/
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loqi.me created /chat_archive (+25) "prompted by gRegor and redirect added by gRegor" (view diff)
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[aciccarello] FYI, I'm seeing 2 loqis from Slack (Loqi and Loqi_). Not sure if that's important.
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capjamesg Loqi has finally figured out cloning.
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gRegor gives Loqi a clone
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Loqi enjoys the clone
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gRegor <_<
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gRegor One Loqi always tells the truth, the other always lies...
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[tantek] That sounds more like Gemini tho. Protocol vs LLM
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