#meta 2024-01-18
2024-01-18 UTC
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# 
capjamesg The fact I didn't see it while looking at the sidebar while I was writing that message is a sign there is a problem.
# capjamesg We want folks in the community who value both reading and contributing. - This is unrelated. Something being hard to find doesn't mean we necessarily invite the right folks. It means we're more likely to miss the right people, too.
# capjamesg My hypothesis: There are a lot of mentions of the IndieWeb and fewer but still a notable amount of mentions of the wiki on Mastodon. It is strange that there aren't more people coming in to say hello or to ask questions.
# capjamesg I have to read 10 links in the sidebar before I learn there is a chat.
# capjamesg "Join discussion" is open for interpretation (it has vibes of a political CTA; there is a "discussion" happening). "Join our chat" is more actionable.
# capjamesg aaronpk I don't think so either.
# capjamesg And plenty of people love Discords 😄
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[0x3b0b] I acknowledge that even with the speech bubble, my first thought when I see "discuss" is a forum. In the context of a wiki, that would lead me to think about the "talk" pages before I came around to the idea of a chat, unless a chat were what I was looking for. "Join discussion" is at least a little bit better, for my anecdotal case; it feels like it makes me slightly more likely to associate it with the "chat log" right underneath.
# capjamesg A broader point is that at so many stages there are barriers for participation in the IndieWeb community. One could argue every one of those barriers helps filter for someone who would be a positive contributor. With every one, however, we limit who can participate.
# capjamesg I'd say the chat is the third most important item in that sidebar.
# capjamesg Code of Conduct, HWC, then chat.
# capjamesg Then Brighton IWC.
# capjamesg And so on.
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tantek.com edited /MediaWiki:Sidebar (-48) "drop "2024-01-01-commitments|✨ 2024 Commitments!" because it's already 2024-01. can re-add for 2025 in November" (view diff)
# capjamesg Lead with things that people can participate in.
# capjamesg discouraging randos from showing up for rando chatter is a good thing - this doesn't feel like a positive framing. Random people are going to sign up irrespective of how prominent a chat is.
# capjamesg Does elevating the prominence of chat increase the chance of more random people signing up? Yeah. But does it also increase the chance of other people who may be productive community members to sign up? Yes.
# capjamesg Of note, many of the people with whom I chat here are the same people with whom I spoke when I first joined the community.
# capjamesg With all the talk of the social web of late, should we not expect more members to be interested in chatting about websites? We see that trend in HWC, which I have done work to promote, with higher participation numbers and more new participants (with no compromise in the quality of discussion).
# capjamesg On a related note, I just found: https://lipu.dgold.eu/praxis-indieweb
# [0x3b0b] I think I tend toward prioritizing information for new interested people over convenience for people who've gotten their feet wet, and to me that makes at least the first five items under Resources (not in that order) deserve to be elevated above everything above the Resources header with the _possible_ exception of HWC. That is, however, at least partly a matter of personal taste, and I can't really speak to the consensus priorities of the wiki.
# capjamesg I'm pretty frustrated that we have had so many discussions about improving accessibility to the community and we're not making substantial progress (nor do I feel particularly motivated about doing so, given the feedback on one suggestion from the wiki, the first pushback to which has come from two people who have been here since the beginning).
# capjamesg I think, broadly, it is unclear to me what the IndieWeb _is_ and what it would like to be (and who is guiding us there).
# capjamesg I know the principles. This pertains more to how we want people to participate. Do we want this to be a place where people talk about more technical details? If so, we need to be explicitly clear about that. It's okay if that is the case, but if it is we should be pointing people to other related communities where they can find value.
# capjamesg If someone who implemented most of the standards in the community isn't really sure what the community is about, we have work to do.
# capjamesg Chat might break down with prose; we can maybe do this in an Etherpad 😄
# tantek.com edited /MediaWiki:Sidebar (-3) "try some re-organizing based on feedback from capjamesg, 3bob" (view diff)
# capjamesg I'm done for now 😄
# capjamesg (in terms of introduicng new points)
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[tantek] re: "improving accessibility to the community and we're not making substantial progress" — design is hard, copy editing is hard. lots of folks have opinions on this sort of thing but few folks have actual *good* design and copy editing skills to make "substantial progress" nevermind actual major improvements.
# capjamesg Looks clearer!
# capjamesg *Reads clearer
# capjamesg I'm going to sleep given the time here. I will read anything else written in the morning and respond when I can.
# capjamesg Thank you for all the discussion thus far!
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# tantek.com edited /MediaWiki:Sidebar (+65) "#indieweb hashtag posts using indieweb.social tag page" (view diff)
# GWG- Is the Zoom being tended to?
# [tantek] folks please reload a page like https://indieweb.org/Getting_Started and take a look at the Sidebar in particular to see what you like and don't like.
# kaja.sknebel.net edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net/upcoming-hwcs (+10) "update from events.indieweb.org" (view diff)
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# [Joe_Crawford] GWG Zoom was tended to by Pablo! I was in for an hour—was good!
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[aciccarello] Like the sidebar updates
# [aciccarello] capjamesg++ tantek++
# kaja.sknebel.net edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net/upcoming-hwcs (-10) "update from events.indieweb.org" (view diff)
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[jeremycherfas] My only fresh comment on the sidebar is that the page as a whole is not great on mobile. I realise Mediawiki responsive layouts are hard, but it would be great if the sidebar were above the main content in portrait mobile.
# [Jo] You can change the style when you're logged in can't you?
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# [Paul_Robert_Ll] Gentle reminder that the wiki still needs updating to a useable theme 😉
# [Paul_Robert_Ll] I know the home page is a blocker to upgrading to the newer MediaWiki theme, but I’d argue that its current customisations provide less value than having clearer and more focused content.</rant>
# sarajaksa.eu edited /writing (+126) "Adding the link to Is your blog for you or other people?" (view diff)
# capjamesg I think it is worth upgrading the theme.
# kaja.sknebel.net edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net/upcoming-hwcs (-349) "update from events.indieweb.org" (view diff)
# kaja.sknebel.net edited /Template:next-hwc (+0) "update next date from events.indieweb.org" (view diff)
# [tantek] [Paul_Robert_Ll] pretty sure nothing has changed since the conclusions of the discussions at IWC Nurnberg: tl;dr: updating the theme produces a worse result (with more work to do) than the status quo. Help welcome to help solve some of those problem / work to do, OR put in time fixing the current theme. Either way, there are multiple paths forward that don't overall regress the experience
# capjamesg Do you have notes for the conclusion of that discussion?
# capjamesg [lifeofpablo]++ for managing the Zoom this week.
# capjamesg [lifeofpablo]++
# capjamesg Can we change the link on the home page from "Discuss" to "Join the Community"
# [tantek] capjamesg yes very much so: https://indieweb.org/MediaWiki_customizations#Wiki_is_unusable_on_mobile
# capjamesg Thanks!
# capjamesg Do some HWCs still do quiet writing hours?
# capjamesg On the home page: "Some cities also have a 17:30-18:30 Quiet Writing Hour beforehand."
# capjamesg The new theme doesn't look great 😬
# capjamesg Especially on mobile 🤦
# capjamesg I would draw a line between intentional and unintentional oversimplification. People who didn't know the discussion went on -- and who have not worked with old MediaWiki themes -- wouldn't know.
# capjamesg I was kind of hoping we'd get a Wikipedia like skin out of the box 😄
# capjamesg "lots of folks have opinions on this sort of thing but few folks have actual good design and copy editing skills to make "substantial progress" nevermind actual major improvements." - This is not exclusively a design or copy problem. It touches every part of what we do. We touched on this for HWCs and carving out more time at the beginning for site demos (which reminds me that we need to action on that in HWC!). I t
# capjamesg Agreed!
# capjamesg On community management and unproductive participation (i.e. self promotion and leaving, asking questions not in good faith, and variants thereof), I think Write the Docs manages this well.
# [Paul_Robert_Ll] Sorry bad wording on my part. My understanding, from last set of discussions, was that the main blocker to updating the theme was the heavy customisation to the home page. And my above point being, that fixing the issues with the current mobile theme would provide more value than keeping the customisations to the home page. There’s a separate discussion about the homepage content/focus etc, which maybe can be detached somewhat fro
# [Paul_Robert_Ll] upgrading the theme. I’ve tried to document the issues etc. on https://indieweb.org/MediaWiki_customizations
# tantek.com edited /Main_Page (-304) "delete HWC regular meetup text that was only true 2019 and before (pre-panini)" (view diff)
# capjamesg If someone promotes their work, a moderator quickly removes the post and points the user to the community guidelines. I'm not sure how many moderators they have, but it feels like self promotion / asking off-topic questions with which the community cannot help is gone before I even have a chance to see it.
# [Paul_Robert_Ll] As to pros/cons of the updated Vector theme, personal opinions of it aside, its used by one of the most popular sites on the internet, so its familiar to users already, as well as being well tried and tested.
# capjamesg Yeah 😦
# [Paul_Robert_Ll] Broken, if keep current customisations.
# capjamesg Do we know why that's the case?
# [Paul_Robert_Ll] Content > Design
# [Paul_Robert_Ll] Where would be a good place to ‘mock up’ the current home page in a manor that would not get broken by any theme updates?
# capjamesg Can we replace " indieweb stream" in the sidebar with "community posts" or something like that?
# capjamesg The current wording assumes one knows what a stream is.
# [Paul_Robert_Ll] Ah, good idea. How about this: I create a sub page of the current home page with customisations that would work independent of any theme. You can then try it with the upgraded theme to see if anything breaks?
# [Paul_Robert_Ll] But not the current/newest Vector theme. Maybe a first step is to make that available as a user option?
# capjamesg ++
# capjamesg I'm going to do some polishing up on our Discord.
# [Paul_Robert_Ll] Can we update the Vector (2022) theme to the latest version, as used on Wikipedia? (This is the only other theme option available, and not the default one we use currently)
# capjamesg We can have a welcome message that informs people of what we talk about, how to participate, and our code of conduct. (standard in almost every community I'm in, including London Web Standards)
# capjamesg Look at that! Very nice!
# capjamesg [tantek]++
# tantek.com edited /Main_Page (+0) "/* Homebrew Website Club */ bump up image to float next to more content" (view diff)
# capjamesg They do indeed!
# capjamesg This looks more difficult than I think but I'll say it anyway: can we make the sidebar text a touch bigger?
# capjamesg That's not really a big deal, but it would be kind of nice!
# [Paul_Robert_Ll] [tantek] Would [aaronpk] know how to upgrade existing (or add it as another theme option)?
# [Paul_Robert_Ll] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Skin:Vector/2022
# [Paul_Robert_Ll] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:SkinDistributor/Vector
# [Paul_Robert_Ll] The naming/versioning of this theme is really unhelpful, too!
# 
aaronpk Isn't Vector 2022 already installed? https://indieweb.org/Special:Version
# capjamesg Another idea I like from Write the Docs is having an annual survey.
# capjamesg Theirs is more about technical writing as a profession (roles, reponsibilities, etc.), but a community one could be nice.
# capjamesg Ask a 2-3 simple questions: what do you like about the community, what can we do better? All are optional.
# tantek.com edited /Main_Page (+88) "/* IndieWebCamp */ next IWC, copy edit description a little" (view diff)
# capjamesg I'm not sure how I feel about the "simple standards" part in "The IndieWeb is a community of independent and personal websites connected by simple standards,".
# capjamesg To people who have experience with standards, Webmention, etc. are simple when compared with alternatives.
# capjamesg But... I wouldn't describe any of them as particularly "simple"
# capjamesg I would rather say "The IndieWeb is a community of independent and personal websites connected by thoughtfully-designed building blocks" or something like that.
# capjamesg That's on our home page.
# capjamesg In the first yellow box.
# capjamesg [tantek] I'm not sure what purpose the "Meetups 2024-01-24" link has
# [Paul_Robert_Ll] [aaronpk] Vector 2022 is installed, but not the latest version of Vector 2022. Really confusing that it falls under Vector, which is shown on that page as 1.0.0. This is super confusing!
# [Paul_Robert_Ll] The versions of Vector 2022 are quite different, also. Madness
# [Paul_Robert_Ll] I think the latest version of Vector 2022 is 1.4.1, but likely that we have 1.38 or lower.
# [Paul_Robert_Ll] :face_with_spiral_eyes:
# capjamesg capjamesg it is an automatic link to the next meetups! - is that purpose not served by the previous link?
# capjamesg The only difference is one takes you to #hwc and the other doesn't.
# capjamesg I think linking to the homepage is best.
# capjamesg Which we do in the first link.
# capjamesg [tantek] I removed the mention of posting on your own site instead of mailing lists from the home page 😄
# capjamesg Because many people will not even know what a mailing list is.
# capjamesg I only really learned about mailing lists from the W3C.
# capjamesg Yeah haha.
# aaronpk https://discord.com/developers/docs/resources/guild-scheduled-event speaking of events, I wonder if we can automate syndicating the events to discord
# capjamesg So all the fighting people off mailing lists was overall a success.
# capjamesg aaronpk[d] I just set them up manually for now.
# IWDiscord <capjamesg#0>
# capjamesg If you go to the Discord as a new member, we now have an onboarding flow.
# capjamesg #rules refers people to our CoC (no messages allowed).
# capjamesg #overview gives a high level overview of the community (no messages allowed).
# capjamesg I have asked for feedback from some people who know Discord better than I.
# tantek.com edited /Main_Page (+6) "open standards rather than simple, a few friendlier words" (view diff)
# capjamesg Love it.
# capjamesg Can we enable chat on our Zoom account? It is getting tedious to direct people to Etherpad every time so it would be nice to link directly to it in chat (of course, we'd be clear not to use Zoom chat). I sometimes have to give directions to the Etherpad twice in a meetup.
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# aaronpk test
# aaronpk ok file issues here, i have some other fixes for meetable in the queue too https://github.com/aaronpk/Meetable/issues
# capjamesg ...
# capjamesg Sorry, testing something.
# capjamesg I don't think that effect is realised.
# capjamesg People are still leaving after HWC and not coming back.
# capjamesg When is "before" (so I can understand your frame of reference)?
# [Paul_Robert_Ll] For the homepage, can the heading not be ‘What is the IndieWeb?’ but say ‘The IndieWeb is a people-focused alternative to the “corporate web”.’ The question framing seems superfluous.
# [Paul_Robert_Ll] I actually have a bunch of thoughts on the homepage, had a go at rewriting it a while back, just wasn’t sure how best to recommend changes. But maybe again I can create a sub page of my user profile and share that?
# [Paul_Robert_Ll] Ah, interesting.
# capjamesg ++
# capjamesg aaronpk Random question: How can I change my profile photo in the Slack?
# capjamesg I have a photo from like two years ago in there.
# [Paul_Robert_Ll] The content shown in search results says ‘The IndieWeb is a community of independent and personal websites connected by simple standards…’ (which is what I have as a suggestion for the page heading, as opposed to corporate-web line). Not sure if having the ‘What is the IndieWeb’ as a h1 changes the placement of that result.
# [tantek] ^ please add to /discuss#FAQ
# capjamesg aaronpk This is the photo that comes from the IRC James.
# capjamesg IIRC
# [Paul_Robert_Ll] Is shows a link to the Why IndieWeb page
# [Paul_Robert_Ll] ^Google
# [Paul_Robert_Ll] DuckDuckGo also says “IndieWeb Main Page From IndieWeb Jump to navigation Jump to search Discuss Events What is the IndieWeb?” which isn’t great, either 😕
# [Paul_Robert_Ll] I wonder if there’s a way to fix that?
# capjamesg [tantek] Re: community survey. I'd like to do that. It's hard to know how we can improve without asking people.
# capjamesg Right now, I'm operating on feedback I have read or have been told directly.
# capjamesg Which is only a portion of the information we need.
# [Paul_Robert_Ll] `"what is the indieweb?"` in DDG doesn’t bring up the IndieWeb home page at all, the second result being to the https://indieweb.org/Posts_about_the_IndieWeb page on the wiki
# [Paul_Robert_Ll] I think it uses the Bing index, no?
# capjamesg [tantek] I think we could ask three questions: for how long have you been a member of the community, what do you find valuable about the indieweb, in what ways could the community be better?
# capjamesg And maybe a fourth that asks if you participate in online events, in person events, chat, etc.
# [Joe_Crawford] San Diego may had a quiet writing hour of 2019 -- https://gregorlove.com/2019/12/homebrew-website-club/ -- I was there.
# [Joe_Crawford] Search engines deprioritizing full text search is highly depressing. In favor of "let's get you a summary, that's what's you need, I'll just summarize what you want and you will get more value from this search."
# capjamesg I know. I'm starting the discussion 😉
# capjamesg Another potential path is I write and share a blog post saying we're looking for feedback and to come join the chat.
# capjamesg Regarding outcomes, I think little things like we have done in the last day -- improving the Discord, changing the sidebar -- are wins for encouraging participation. I wonder what things like that we're not thinking about.
# capjamesg Similarly, I asked about how we can improve HWC and we got some feedback, but that was in one call with ~6 people.
# capjamesg .
# capjamesg aaronpk++
# capjamesg I hope all goes well!
# [Paul_Robert_Ll] aaronpk++
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# 
Loqi Just generated the first draft of this week's newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2024-01-19.html I'll generate a draft again tomorrow, so please add to it before then! https://indieweb.org/this-week#How_to
# capjamesg Sorry 😬
# capjamesg Is there a way we can turn that off?
# capjamesg I think we can do that.
# capjamesg The prose looked a bit disinteresting to read without the emojis.
# capjamesg Emojis attract attention ✨
# capjamesg I think I have done everything I wanted to do today.
# capjamesg I'm not sure if we can tinker with the Slack onboarding to make it more personalised?
# capjamesg I think you can do it at the role level.
# capjamesg Oh, it looks like you can't.
# capjamesg aaronpk I see a new theme?
# capjamesg Which looks really good!
# capjamesg Aside from the homepage
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# capjamesg This is neat.
# capjamesg This might be unpopular but I'd like it if you didn't need to set up your domain name to contribute to the wiki.
# capjamesg It is a cool feature, but it adds quite a big hurdle. Someone can only contribute if they have a website, even if they have something to say but don't have their domain set up yet, etc.
# capjamesg One example scenario of this is someone can join HWC without a website but not be able to get on the wiki until they have it set up.
# capjamesg I think it is a principle of the IndieWeb. Not necessarily the indie web (lowercase).
# capjamesg Side question: Can I sign up with a subdomain?
# capjamesg Perfect.
# capjamesg In that case, can we improve the log in page?
# capjamesg It doesn't really explain what's going on.
# capjamesg (To find this: Homepage > Login)
# capjamesg Maybe that's a new thing from the upgrade.
# capjamesg Or, rather, it's on every page.
# capjamesg Loqi 🤦
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# [Joe_Crawford] I have a weird wiki question - were there always spinners at the top of https://indieweb.org/performance ? I feel like I was looking at this page last night and didn't notice animation or that some of the icons are broken.
# capjamesg I have one more thing for now.
# capjamesg This page feels like something that we should move somewhere else: https://indieweb.org/generations
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# [Paul_Robert_Ll] I think there might also be a setting for changing the logo in the header
# capjamesg I know we have the yellow box but it is startling to me that someone found it and mentioned it in a blog post.
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# 
[campegg] I'm seeing some possibly theme-related weirdnesses with images; on pages with the big hero images (like https://indieweb.org/Getting_Started), the hero breaks out of the main content area and partially covers the tools sidebar.
# capjamesg I think we should have the contents on another page, then that page be the warning.
# [Paul_Robert_Ll] Might be best to continue using ‘old’ Vector theme as the default theme for the site (i.e. for logged out users), then make your own personal theme the new Vector, fix the customisations/issues on the homepage etc., then once those fixes are in place (and work with both themes) switch to the new Vector version as being the default? (If that makes any sort of sense…)
# 
aaronparecki.com edited /Getting_Started (+6) "change img to 800px until we can figure out why it's defaulting to the native image size" (view diff)
# [Paul_Robert_Ll] Having this new theme available is great though, as can make fixes against that now, whereas before it wasn’t possible!
# [Paul_Robert_Ll] No, I mean Vector legacy (2010)
# [Paul_Robert_Ll] :face_with_spiral_eyes:
# [Paul_Robert_Ll] I think it has… if you switch to it as your user theme, you’ll see. I think ‘Vector’ means multiple things
# capjamesg aaronpk++ for working through all this.
# capjamesg aaronpk++
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# [Paul_Robert_Ll] If I visit the IndieWeb wiki on the Wayback Machine from November, I get this
# [Paul_Robert_Ll] If I select Vector 2010 (Legacy) as my user theme, I see this
# mattbcool Thanks for setting up events here as well and giving the discord some love. ❤️
# IWDiscord <mattbcool#0>
# mattbcool Are reactions and message history intentionally disabled?
# capjamesg Message history should only be disabled in #indieweb-chat.
# capjamesg This is to leave room for informal discussion that's not logged anywhere.
# mattbcool really impressed with the bridging going on here. 👍
# capjamesg aaronpk is the magician behind the bridges.
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# Loqi ok, I added "[[test]]" to the "See Also" section of /test https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=92298&oldid=89923
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# Loqi 🧱🔩 Building blocks are key design-patterns, technologies, and methods for building and improving your independent website https://indieweb.org/building_blocks
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# aaronparecki.com edited /MediaWiki_customizations (+555) "add notes on skin customization for microformats" (view diff)
# capjamesg Thank you!!!
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# [aciccarello] Love all this discussion
# [aciccarello] It was a way back but I feel the tension of zoom chat vs onboarding people.
# [aciccarello] I'd vote to keep zoom chat disabled since messages are more likely to get missed but improving the communication about where communication happens.
# capjamesg I would like that too.
# capjamesg It makes the logs harder to read.
# capjamesg How does the bridge work?
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# capjamesg That would solve the problem.
# 
gRegor Looks like it's a per-meeting option, maybe not at Zoom account level: https://support.zoom.com/hc/en/article?id=zm_kb&sysparm_article=KB0060343#h_d9a04597-0138-4fb9-86cd-81cc4c68b21f
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# [jeremycherfas] Amazing work everyone. More than 300 messages in scroll back, and then to see the changes happening as I worked slowly forward. I hope the image width can be fixed for mobile.
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gregorlove.com created /User:Gregorlove.com/vector-2022.css (+55) "attempt responsive images only for .mw-default-size" (view diff)
# gRegor That seems to work on https://indieweb.org/Ello which has several larger images
# [jeremycherfas] Not on my mobile, where there are three images in a row.
# gregorlove.com edited /Ello (+249) "past tense, site-death date, History section with Andy Baio's in-depth post" (view diff)
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# gRegor From https://indieweb.org/Special:Preferences > Appearance > Vector (2022) > Custom CSS link
# [jeremycherfas] Cool [Gregor]++
# [jeremycherfas] Login on the home page takes me to special page login, where I have to click log in again. Is there any way to avoid the extra click?
# www.jeremycherfas.net edited /&yet (-6) "Change from About page (404) to home page. No IndieWeb relevance that I could see; probably worth deleting the page." (view diff)
# capjamesg We should delete that.
# [jeremycherfas] Be my guest. I was just playing with Special pages.
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# www.svenknebel.de deleted /&yet "content was: "'''<dfn>[http://andyet.com &yet]</dfn>''' is different kind of consulting company who builds software for people first.""
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# gregorlove.com moved /events/2024-02-17-hwc-europe to /events/2024-01-17-hwc-europe "fix date"
# gRegor !archive https://events.indieweb.org/2024/01/homebrew-website-club-pacific-PD2Yst5xCAbi events/2024-01-17-hwc-pacific
# cali-iwc Created https://indieweb.org/events/2024-01-17-hwc-pacific. Please review the page to ensure the document is correctly formatted and remove any unnecessary text.
# cali.moe created /events/2024-01-17-hwc-pacific (+4567) "Created event page using IndieWeb events / Etherpad archiver" (view diff)
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# Loqi [Event Updated] gregorlove.com updated "Jan 17, 2024 6:00pm Homebrew Website Club - Pacific" changed description "+wiki notes" https://events.indieweb.org/event/562/history/1556/diff
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# [tantek] &yet was a sponsor of 2014. https://indieweb.org/2014#Sponsor
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "IndieWeb relevant" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "IndieWeb relevant is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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# [tantek] indieweb relevant is /relevant_to_the_IndieWeb_wiki
# 
loqi.me created /indieweb_relevant (+42) "prompted by [tantek] and redirect added by [tantek]" (view diff)
# [tantek] capjamesg, the short reasoning is this: anyone *can* participate in the community already in multiple ways, here in chat, by joining events, by contributing to the Etherpads *during* events, etc. What all these have in common is that such "any one" has to contribute in real time in a place where there are other people actively around to help correct behavior, or if not there is abuse, quickly & easily kick them out
# capjamesg That makes sense.
# [tantek] and if someone doesn't want to do the work to setup their own domain, how can we trust them to do the work to /wikify in an /indieweb_relevant way?
# capjamesg I think this fits in with what I was touching on yesterday about who the IndieWeb community is.
# capjamesg The wiki is obviously an important part -- dare I say the central point -- of the community.
# [tantek] capjamesg, the higher level point here is that this is community is not "Wikipedia for the independent web" this community is literally about what it says right there on the home page, what folks like [Paul_Robert_Ll] were quoting in screenshots of what comes up when you search in a search engine for what is the indieweb
# capjamesg I see there being communities on two ends of a barbell right now: (i) retro web communities, and; (ii) more technical communities where the bar for participation is higher.
# capjamesg I feel like the group that's missing is someone who wants to start a website but doesn't know how. We don't see many people in chat come with that ask. I wonder why.
# capjamesg There is a difference between a stated purpose and the vibe of a community.
# capjamesg Several people have said that the IndieWeb is a more technical space.
# capjamesg When you join a community, you usually pick up on a lot of signals. In the Write the Docs community, it's pretty clear after lurking for a few days that thoughtful questions are the core of the community, that the main method of discussion is Slack, and that people are open to all sorts of questions from diagramming to word choice.
# capjamesg Here, I think there is a signal that participation may be easier with technical aptitude (which isn't the case, but it would be easy to think that given that our discussions are mostly between technology professionals and often include technical language).
# capjamesg I think the Loqi bot in #indieweb does a good job of steering people in the right direction.
# [aciccarello] I do think that capjamesg is touching on something. The first impressions people get of the IndieWeb is more technical than what people experience when they join a HWC. Related to our discussions at IWC SD too.
# capjamesg [tantek] Would you say that the IndieWeb is the ideal place for someone without a website, and without technical experience, to come to discuss websites?
# [tantek] "given that our discussions are mostly between technology professionals and often include technical language" <-- yes, because we have cultural inertia from the founding of the community where you HAD TO be technically adept to set everything up. now you can use http://micro.blog or omg.lol and skip all the technical jargon
# capjamesg "we have cultural inertia" - exactly my point. How do we overcome that?
# capjamesg Agreed re: anti-welcoming and jargon.
# capjamesg When you know what tree traversal is and have been doing it for a while, it feels easy to you.
# capjamesg But you forget that the first time you read about it, tree traversal probably seemed really difficult.
# capjamesg Sorry, I should have been clearer: Would you say that the IndieWeb is the ideal place for someone without a website, and without technical experience, to come to discuss *personal* websites?
# capjamesg We talk a lot about standards here like Webmention, microformats, etc.
# capjamesg Which enable you to do a given task.
# capjamesg That is true.
# capjamesg pingback--
# [aciccarello] To me webmention is one of the most frequent points of confusion I've seen
# [aciccarello] It happened just this week
# 
[schmarty] definitely a plumbing term that has grown to eat several unrelated concepts. i think because the name is too good relative to the narrow scope of what the tech covers. :}
# [aciccarello] For reference, this is what I was thinking about https://cosocial.ca/@jszym/111755537712365504
# capjamesg In resopnse to that: https://cosocial.ca/@lordmatt@mastodon.social/111758159926513471
# capjamesg And this is definitely not an isolated thread.
# [aciccarello] To schmarty's comment, I think they are including other concepts in "Webmention"
# capjamesg I think pushing more people to our chat is helpful because then we can say "hey, we're here to help."
# capjamesg Yeah.
# capjamesg The considerations are different for developers.
# [aciccarello] True, but if the IndieWeb seems too technical for fool who creates CMS as a hobby it tells me things look even more technical for non devs
# capjamesg This is the second account I have read this week of a software engineer being discouraged by the technical nature of this community.
# Loqi Open Mentions is a syndication service organized into topics to help with content discovery https://indieweb.org/Open_Mentions
# [tantek] web devs often assume that they already "know everything" or that they should be able to universally "pick up and do anything" and when something outside their existing technical model of the world comes along, they are frustrated much more quickly than "non devs" because they expect everything technical to be "easy" for them
# [aciccarello] ha, that's an interesting observation. I can't say I disagree.
# capjamesg I understand that perspective, but I think we have to be careful in assuming it.
# capjamesg Assume positive intent.
# capjamesg Product Hunt tried to make a site that let you showcase the software you used. It was called Your Stack. They used pancakes as the mascot: https://yourstack.com/
# capjamesg It was actually an amazing community.
# capjamesg Haha
# capjamesg Before I knew about the <section> tag, I knew Next.js.
# capjamesg Which is to say that someone may think they know what they need about the web, but that doesn't mean they aren't open to changing.
# capjamesg In hindsight, that time spent learning Next.js would have been spent so much more effectively by learning HTML and vanilla JS.
# capjamesg This would make for an interesting blog post.
# capjamesg But we have deviated from the main topic which is barriers for entry.
# [tantek] anyway there's an attitude by a certain subset of webdevs that is of the sort of "why do I have to learn new things? I already know how to do everything" that's counterproductive and they usually run into problems with indieweb building blocks because their own assumption of already being "full" or "knowing what they need about the web" gets in their way
# capjamesg The moral of this story was the IndieWeb was where I learned more about the web.
# capjamesg Of course there are going to be people who know what they know and don't want to explore more, but that's only one persona.
# capjamesg The main unanswered question is the extent to which we want to optimize for people who are not technical.
# capjamesg I'm not really sure who is serving that group right now.
# capjamesg What was the conclusion?
# capjamesg Maybe I haven't processed it yet.
# capjamesg Ah.
# capjamesg Is that enough?
# gRegor described pretty well https://indieweb.org/discuss#indieweb
# [aciccarello] I think the wiki needs some refining too
# capjamesg If people feel discouraged about the high degree of technical discourse we have even though we consistently nudge people to #dev, it feels like there is more to do.
# capjamesg gRegor good quote.
# capjamesg I guess what I'm reading here is the IndieWeb should be for _anyone_ who is interested in personal websites.
# Loqi Welcoming is how we as a community welcome new members to our community https://indieweb.org/welcoming
# capjamesg Agreed re: the specific language. It is tough and something I need to do better on.
# capjamesg I think people who are interested in coding a site and who aren't interested in coding a site are two separate needs, however.
# capjamesg Indeed.
# capjamesg I don't like that I used non-technical. You shouldn't define a group by what they can't do.
# tantek.com restored /&yet "&yet is IndieWeb relevant as fairly discoverable from its "What links here" https://indieweb.org/Special:WhatLinksHere?target=%26yet&namespace="
# capjamesg I have a blog post about that one.
# capjamesg I like that idea.
# tantek.com edited /&yet (+13) "stub, sponsored IWC 2014, explicit IndieWeb relevance in dfn" (view diff)
# capjamesg 😄
# capjamesg I'm starting to get tired now.
# [tantek] capjamesg, years ago: https://chat.indieweb.org/2021-03-29#t1616977040780000
# capjamesg 😄
# capjamesg > I get it! Simply avoid using "basically", "easily", and "just" in documentation! 😂
# capjamesg Love it.
# capjamesg Oh Loqi.
# capjamesg I have one more thing for now: how can we improve the diversity of members in our community? We do well with this at in person events in terms of gender, age, etc. but the chat feels a bit different.
# capjamesg For a time in this week's HWC it was six men talking (in the first ~10-20 mins IIRC, before everyone had joined).
# capjamesg And to be clear this is not the case in some other communities I'm in (docs and retro web).
# [tantek] to-do << create a page on [[non-technical]] defining it as an unhelpful & unwelcoming othering phrase per discussion in https://chat.indieweb.org/meta/2024-01-18#t1705610390349800
# Loqi ok, I added "create a page on [[non-technical]] defining it as an unhelpful & unwelcoming othering phrase per discussion in https://chat.indieweb.org/meta/2024-01-18#t1705610390349800" to the "See Also" section of /to-do https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=92316&oldid=92057
# [tantek] to-do << go through the wiki and copy edit / repair / replace uses of "non-technical" or "non technical" with more helpful & [[welcoming]] text, leaving archived meeting/session notes as-is because history is what it was https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?search=%22non-technical%22+%22non+technical%22&title=Special%3ASearch&profile=default&fulltext=1
# Loqi ok, I added "go through the wiki and copy edit / repair / replace uses of "non-technical" or "non technical" with more helpful & [[welcoming]] text, leaving archived meeting/session notes as-is because history is what it was https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?search=%22non-technical%22+%22non+technical%22&title=Special%3ASearch&profile=default&fulltext=1" to the "See Also" section of /to-do https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=92317&oldid=92316
# capjamesg They do! But more on Neocities / shared hosting sites.
# [tantek] yeah that's a difference between in-person communities limited by proximity interactions and online communities, especially intentional online communities that as part of their goal seek to be more /welcoming
# capjamesg To what does "that" refer?
# capjamesg Diversity or the retro web?
# [tantek] capjamesg it was in reference to [jeremycherfas] saying "In my understanding, that would be all real-life actual human communities, where the unarticulated norms and conventions are what defines the community. You pick them up, and slowly feel like you belong, or you don’t and either give up or accept outsider status." which was in reply to my post about "you shouldn't have to "pick up on a lot of signals" to understand a community."
# capjamesg That didn't come through?
# capjamesg [jeremycherfas]' comment was in a thread in Slack.
# capjamesg Perhaps that did something?
# capjamesg In any case, thank you for highlighting.
# [tantek] https://chat.indieweb.org/meta/2024-01-18#t1705612305988400 was the statement right before
# capjamesg I see it in Slack, not the logs.
# capjamesg There is something to be said about "lurking" in an online community.
# capjamesg I sometimes sit quiet to see what's going on before doing anything.
# [jeremycherfas] Sorry about not coming through to logs; beyond my non-technicality.
# capjamesg No need to apologize!
# [jeremycherfas] The thing is, I actually like some of the things on Slack on mobile. Desktop I’m happy with my irc client, Textual. Never had as good an experience on mobile. Suggestions for iOS welcome.
# capjamesg Oooh, that's cool nsmsn[d] !
# nsmsn I copied that from Chris Aldrich (boffosocko.com)'s user page
# nsmsn I changed my profile pic in the wiki after I changed platforms last year, and it seems like my pic isn't showing up in sparklines anymore?
# nsmsn ^ you can set a limit on this line:
{{Special:WhatLinksHere/User:Username.com|limit=1000}}# gRegor nsmsn: the sparkline is a separate template with an image URL, you can update that in https://indieweb.org/Template:nsmsn
# nsmsn Brilliant! Thanks, gRegor!
# IWDiscord <nsmsn#0>
# nsmsn aaronpk, I think contributions are sorted in chronological order...my first link is chat-names and my recent ones include this week's Galactic and Pacific HWC events.
# nsmsn Maybe you can adapt it to be reverse-chron, so it shows your latest activity first?
# gRegor Just realized June 28 will be 10 years since my first IWC, https://indieweb.org/2014
# paulrobertlloyd.com edited /User:Paulrobertlloyd.com/vector-2022.css (+61) "Fix image widths" (view diff)
# paulrobertlloyd.com edited /User:Paulrobertlloyd.com/vector-2022.css (+99) "Support Vector legacy styles" (view diff)
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# capjamesg What can we do to change the home page?
# capjamesg I mean a bigger redesign. We have all those wiki pages on improving the home page.
# capjamesg If someone wanted to raise their hand to action on those, what would be the process?
# paulrobertlloyd.com created /User:Paulrobertlloyd.com/sandbox/vector-2022-homepage (+4358) "Copy existing homepage content" (view diff)
# Loqi 2019/homepage is a project to update the IndieWeb community homepage in 2019, in particular with a three column layout designed for onboarding three common sets of visitors and new IndieWeb community members https://indieweb.org/three_column
# paulrobertlloyd.com edited /User:Paulrobertlloyd.com/sandbox/vector-2022-homepage (+4843) "Copy all of current homepage" (view diff)
# [aciccarello] Would a way forward on the homepage be an experimental page?
# [aciccarello] I'm not sure how that works with mediawiki
# [Paul_Robert_Ll] Wow, user namespace edits also appear in this channel 😊
# [aciccarello] My thought is, iterate on a design until people are happy with it replacing the homepage. I'm not sure what that threshold would be though.
# [Paul_Robert_Ll] Am just trying to get together a set of fixes for the _current_ homepage in the new vector theme, but yeah, will undoubtedly end up with my own separate design for the homepage too 😂
# [Paul_Robert_Ll] Yeah, will tick that box from now on until I have something a bit closer to show!
# [aciccarello] I imagine everyone has their own list of which indieweb values are most important to them
# [Al_Abut] that’s a designer’s dilemma to be honest - trying to change a design that’s broadly appealing to an existing base while also trying to raise issues about first impressions to new audiences
# [Al_Abut] it’s not about colors or text, it’s about clear goals
# [Al_Abut] and making something the existing community broadly likes can also be groupthink and design by committee, which aims for comprehensiveness over clarity
# [Al_Abut] this isn’t a design critique or takedown, btw, just shedding light on how a designer thinks in case it’s helpful
# [Al_Abut] maybe, but isn’t there also the principle of bringing something to the table to share and discuss
# [Al_Abut] otherwise people just talk past each other
# [Al_Abut] haha, well played
# [Al_Abut] But moving past design process, I think a discussion about the goals is probably the underlying factor. It’s always easier to design something when you know what the intended outcomes are, or at least can even agree on what the existing problems are. I’m not getting that sense of alignment from some of the discussions - and maybe that’s ok! Everything’s in flux and exciting. Eternal September, etc.
# [Al_Abut] e.g. today I saw a tension between “how do we make the indieweb community more friendly and welcome, especially to non-devs” and “don’t spoil the existing good thing that we’ve got going by making the chat more obvious”
# [Al_Abut] I’m explaining how it came across to me, I’m not trying to willfully misconstrue anything or advocating for a position
# capjamesg I wasn't around when the community was started, but I think our approach may need some revising.
# capjamesg There is so much talk about the social web, indie web (lowercase), personal websites, etc.
# capjamesg I can't recall seeing one "extremely disruptive" person.
# capjamesg And even then, that is a product of the moderation tools we have to hand.
# capjamesg If we have an IRC bridge, spam is a bigger problem. Discord, for example, has advanced moderation tools that build specifically for that.
# capjamesg (I'm not saying we should move to Discord haha. But I am saying that these assumptions are not based only on external factors.)
# [Al_Abut] part of the (healthy) split might be encapsulated as IWC vs Homebrew.
# capjamesg Maybe this is a "you won't understand until you see it" thing, but I struggle with this.
# capjamesg If you are too defensive against disruptive people, you get your eyes away from people who could make great contributors but maybe don't want to do as much work.
# capjamesg (as in, set up IndieAuth, create a user page, edit a wiki page, etc.)
# [Al_Abut] yes, exactly. it might be an inherent problem to some things that you have to try it to get it. from the product world, that’s why apple invests so heavily in their stores. you need to pick up a premium product to see if that’s something that moves you, like a sports car. and maybe communities have a similar dynamic - you have to join a meeting and see if you get the “whoa, I found my people” feeling I did. then it encourages you t
# [Al_Abut] deeper into the lore of the tribe, find out their various rituals, etc.
# capjamesg Candidly, I don't think, collectively, the IndieWeb experience is as welcoming as it could be.
# capjamesg If we look around at who participates, there is a bias toward people with technical skills. That isn't something that just happens. It is a product of how people feel when they encounter something.
# [Al_Abut] I can see how that’s true and have been holding my tongue because I don’t see an easy solution, e.g. I’m not sure that “attend a homebrew zoom to see if this is your speed” is something that scales
# aaronpk a lot of the principles reflect the filters that have been in place https://indieweb.org/principles#Key_Principles
# [Al_Abut] one thing we talked about at the SD camp was making a friendly short video, whether on the home page or get started or somewhere
# Loqi 📺 Videos about the indieweb are a great way to get a quick visual introduction to what is the Indie Web, why we need it, and how you can make a difference for yourself, and others https://indieweb.org/videos_about_the_indieweb
# [Al_Abut] a short video can get across the emotional tone of the helpful friendly community in a way that’s async
# capjamesg ++
# [Al_Abut] some of the concerns were that it wouldn’t be diverse enough, and that’s totally valid
# capjamesg [tantek] Why would this community regress to that?
# capjamesg I'm going to #indieweb-chat for the next message.
# [Al_Abut] (what’s the umbrella mistake?)
# capjamesg Why is the point of reference negative, though?
# capjamesg Should we not have the angle "we've seen how badly this can go, but we also know there are other communities that are thriving, so let's see what we can do!"
# capjamesg To join the Write the Docs community, I had to go to their website, click two links, and I was in their Slack. And now I read it every few days, have shared content, have contributed to discussions.
# capjamesg Yeah. Recency bias may be playing in to my response there.
gRegor-web joined the channel
# gRegor-web Hello from the web chat :)
# capjamesg But we did just change those links in the sidebar. The chat link was 10-12 links down.
# aaronpk a better comparison would be what does it take to start a Write the Docs meetup https://www.writethedocs.org/organizer-guide/meetups/starting/
# capjamesg Hello chat gRegor!
# capjamesg aaronpk I don't think so, because that's a non-standard path.
# capjamesg There are at least 20k people in their Slack.
# capjamesg A very small percentage will be involved with event organizing.
# capjamesg (To be clear, a small percentage of those people are active users, too.)
# capjamesg [tantek] I think it is important to respect what we have learned works while thinking about the future.
# capjamesg Another way to think about it: where do we want the IndieWeb to be in 10 years?
# capjamesg I would like the IndieWeb to be a place where people with no technical experience but who want to start a website come to us and we can help them. We have more diversity (that's something we need _now_). We continue with our cadence of great events.
# capjamesg Thank you!
# aaronpk another aspect of having easier entry and a much larger community is that moderation becomes extremely important which requires a lot of time, which requires more people actively engaged in the moderator roles. plenty of documentation of how moderation tasks scale with other communities too
# capjamesg aaronpk Agreed, wholeheartedly.
# [Al_Abut] not to be even denser than usual, but I’m, having trouble connecting the umbrella analogy with explaining first impressions of how indieweb seemed offputting until I met the people behind it
# capjamesg aaronpk I'm saying the time is now 😄
# Loqi ✨ It would be great to organize an IndieWeb Summit 2024 if we are able to find a venue (possibly restarting in Portland, or nearby Seattle instead, or maybe another city/region like New York) and figure out what kind of Covid precautions would keep people reasonably safe, and set very clear expectations of what is expected of participants https://indieweb.org/2024
# capjamesg To Al's point, I think we need more (diverse) role models, too. Notably, this isn't something we make happen overnight. It requires trust and a lot of work. But it is a gap in this community and one with which I am not comfortable.
# capjamesg I don't doubt, for a moment, that work has gone on. Through in person and online events, it is clear that an immense amount of effort is put into event organizing, making people feel welcome, answering questions, and being a resource.
# capjamesg But my question is why hasn't much changed?
# capjamesg What happened?
# capjamesg 2019 was just before I joined.
# capjamesg I joined in early to mid 2020.
# Loqi Organizers Meetups (and Organizers Summits) are half-day events held before IndieWeb Summits, and often quarterly before IndieWebCamps, for anyone who wants to help organize an IndieWebCamp or Homebrew Website Club meetup, and especially for those have organized an IndieWeb event in the past two years https://indieweb.org/organizer
# gRegor https://indieweb.org/Category:Organizers_Meetups more specifically
# capjamesg [tantek] A direct answer from your experience would perhaps be more informative.
# capjamesg Skimming through some of these pages, there are amazing details.
# capjamesg "Lovi: i am brand new and i am surprised that i have things to say! first: fix your website (indieweb.org)! it's terse. needs more pictures. more accessible language. make it personal (e.g. to the hazards of using facebook, infographics about everyting, including "dangers of vertical silos"). Use-cases more accessible from front page"
# capjamesg Nice to see kid-friendliness mentioned!
# capjamesg https://indieweb.org/2018/changetheratio
# capjamesg I'm looking through /Organizers too.
# capjamesg I guess, it's unclear with all these ideas -- and what looks like people excited about those ideas -- why we regressed in terms of diversity?
# capjamesg I have written a few blog posts about it.
# capjamesg We used to promote on Twitter, but we stopped that.
# capjamesg I advertised it on Hacker News.
# paulrobertlloyd.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:homepage-connected.svg]]" https://indieweb.org/File:homepage-connected.svg"
# capjamesg I mention it here in chat every week (that's more internal promotion).
# capjamesg I am hesitant to invite people if I think a discussion is going to end up in Webmention / microformats territory.
# capjamesg I invited colleagues to the build a website in an hour events because that seemed more interesting to them. If it weren't for timing, at least one person would have showed up.
# gRegor aaronpk, "Error creating thumbnail: /bin/bash: line 1: convert: command not found
# capjamesg [tantek] The truth is though that I don't know many people who would be interested. I will start promoting on Mastodon though!
# gRegor capjamesg, from https://indieweb.org/2019/Organizers#Summit_Planning_Improvements, "What if my existing network is not very diverse? Homework assignment to expand your circles! Not necessarily easily, requires work, but it is rewarding on its own."
# capjamesg That is easier said than done.
# capjamesg You're talking with someone for whom the only people he may talk with in a week are colleagues and people in the IndieWeb community.
# capjamesg (anxiety and loneliness suck)
# gRegor https://indieweb.org/2020/Austin was pretty diverse, which I attribute to manton's and micro.blog's networks. Natalie and Pace's keynotes were great.
# capjamesg To be clear: I need help in promoting HWC. My social circles aren't that big, and that has, in the past, been something that has caused me a lot of pain.
# capjamesg That's why the extent to which I can invite people here is limited. Some of the people who I would invite have already seen the IndieWeb and decided it is not for them for various of the reasons listed above.
# capjamesg No, it's all good.
# capjamesg This is a _community_ responsibility.
# paulrobertlloyd.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:homepage-content.svg]]" https://indieweb.org/File:homepage-content.svg"
# paulrobertlloyd.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:homepage-control.svg]]" https://indieweb.org/File:homepage-control.svg"