#meta 2025-02-06
2025-02-06 UTC
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kaja.sknebel.net edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net/upcoming-hwcs (+10) "update from events.indieweb.org" (view diff)
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[Murray] ^ just a note on this: I feel like the ongoing criticism of http://Micro.blog is worth documenting, especially as I imagine the current practice of recommending the service will remain controversial in certain communities for some time. I've tried to be as balanced and to-the-point in that summary, but very happy for people to edit it
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jeremycherfas From where I sit, the backlash against MB seems to be based on a bad faith interpretation of the cease and desist notice which has in any case now been deleted. But I'm neither involved nor affected.
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loqi.me edited /hat (+111) "capjamesg[d] added "
{{capjamesg}} has a collection of hats on his personal website at https://jamesg.blog/hats/" to "See Also"" (view diff)# 
[tantek] The last time that I dug into the MB complaints, it really seemed more like differences of opinions than any ill will, until it suffered from all too common social media amplification and brigading in an attempt to intimidate one individual who was not completely perfect in what they said
# [tantek] perfect enemy of the good, social media purity culture (wherein if you don't say exactly the "right" things (by whoever is the current online mob leader), you are harassed until you do. not ok, and frankly that behavior itself would be considered highly disrespectful and a violation of our code of conduct. also internet harassing someone for inaction? also not ok. lastly, equating inaction/silence with "therefore you obviously must support
# [tantek] no one knows who sent what C&D! that's the problem. there's a lot of anger directed based on assumption of who it might have been. then that anger gets turned into "xyz is a *phobe or *phobic" then that label is used to broadcast "canceling" someone because of course once someone says such an accusation it's sufficient to be believed to be true for all time 🙄
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[schmarty] meanwhile, a C&D is a legal threat and, apparently, a serious one. it may be easy to focus on the public behavior of folks complaining on social media. meanwhile a real person is being targeted with real legal action. also pretty bad!
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# [schmarty] as someone who believes "we shape [language] and thereafter [language] shapes us" i would prefer we not 😅
# [Joe_Crawford] The situation is a fine reminder that sometimes there is no valid “centrist” position that makes any sense. Avoiding taking a stand is not accountability or integrity.
# [Joe_Crawford] Huge bummer for the indieweb.
# [Joe_Crawford] But a reminder that technology, particularly publishing technology, is inherently, incredibly political. It cannot be avoided.
# [Joe_Crawford] [Murray]++ good additions, worthwhile documenting the criticisms.
# [tantek] [Joe_Crawford] while I don't disagree with your general statements, I'll also add, it is not reasonable to expect (feel entitled to) every entity to make a statement on every thing, which is why I pushed back on the equating of inaction/silence with disagreement (which is pretty ironic because in other cultural circles, silence it taken to mean assent, which is also flawed)
# jeremycherfas I was particularly mystified by one person who said that although they didn't know the details, it looked bad to them. If they don't know the details, why venture an opinion?
# [Joe_Crawford] Your misread of my position is reasonable. I take your point with regard to pile-ons and pressure. I would say this, in politics, people will disagree with you, with who you call your friends, with your behavior. Politicians learn to navigate the competing needs of constituents who disagree. The fact that the criticisms have not died down? It's a failure to engage in politics.
# [tantek] [Joe_Crawford] agreed it is politics, and failure to engage in politics. I will cite this article again, the problem exactly the "it looks bad" vibes-based politics: https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2024/dec/14/how-vibes-came-to-rule-everything-from-pop-to-politics
# [Joe_Crawford] We are in the meta-channel, so I suppose wishing everyone would do politics different makes a kind of sense. There are vibes everywhere in everything. Pretending only those who disagree with ones own position engage in vibes-based politics is a strategic blindspot.
# [Joe_Crawford] It all makes me want to read about how public relations strategy is formed and executed.
# [Joe_Crawford] I have been privy to *some* kind of messaging along those lines in some places I worked. "What do you do when people are talking about you bad on the internet"
# [Joe_Crawford] The commercial imperative to not offend or upset *anyone* is often at root of lingering problems. Commercial imperatives muddy principles. Mostly famously for the web? "Don't be evil."
# [Joe_Crawford] And I think a lot about the idea of a "vote of no-confidence." Which is all vibes, and yet a formal part of parliamentary systems.
# [Joe_Crawford] I wonder if I could put out a shingle as an "online conflict mediator." That could be my sort of fun.
# [Joe_Crawford] Your disagreement was subtext. 🙂 Now it's text. All good.
# [Joe_Crawford] _For money, though._
# meikou.space created / href="https://meikou.space" target="_blank">https://meikou.space (+21) "https://meikou.space/" (view diff)
# [tantek] [Joe_Crawford] there's also a (perhaps distant now?) history from the early days of IndieWeb events, organizing, publicizing of "you're not doing enough X" criticisms, which were sometimes true, sometimes not, most of the time made in bad faith by folks who were looking for easy social media gotcha targets, and more often than not had nothing to do with people's actual reasons for being upset.
# [tantek] despite that, some of that criticism was helpful, and gradually used to improve a lot in the community, especially for new folks. one strong and consistent pattern however, is that rarely (if ever?) an original complainant would admit that changes were made, and or jump in an participate. so yes it's helpful to listen to criticism, especially as a source of blindspots, unfortunately it appears that once someone has "committed" a public
# [tantek] tbh I'm ok with folks who are "default angry" on the public internet deciding to not join the community. such folks typically require A LOT of emotional labor which either places an undue burden on volunteer folks here to keep things positive and constructive, or worse, exhaust everyone to the point of driving out folks who are here for contructive reasons
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tantek.com edited /Events (+60) "update dfn and description a bit, remove some duplication" (view diff)
# tantek.com edited /Special:Log/move () "moved [[Events]] to [[events]] over redirect: common noun" (view diff)
# tantek.com edited /Special:Log/delete () "Tantek.com deleted redirect [[events]] by overwriting: Deleted to make way for move from "[[Events]]"" (view diff)
# carrvo tantek++ it is really refreshing to read " 'therefore you obviously must support the opposite!' is a complete logical fallacy ". It is something I have said many a time and treated like the bad guy from both sides, even when my position was not actually neutral.
# carrvo Actually there is a book series like that: something along the lines of bats got banished to the night because of their neutrality. 'Course the protagonist bat was attracted to the day.
# tantek.com edited /code-of-conduct (+27) "s/IRC channel/chat channels/ and link it to discuss to be specific. fairly sure this is an uncontroversial editorial change to convey intended intent, and within the prior clause of "all IndieWeb spaces both online and off". link "events". happy for anyone to speak up and make reasoned counterpoint if I missed something" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:indiewebcamp-mug.jpg]]" https://indieweb.org/File:indiewebcamp-mug.jpg"
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# aaronparecki.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:microformats-shirt.jpg]]" https://indieweb.org/File:microformats-shirt.jpg"
# turner.enemyterritory.org user carrvo index edited /self_hosting (+290) "Added another example and some references" (view diff)
# turner.enemyterritory.org user carrvo index edited /home_server (+1929) "Give different options for routing solutions" (view diff)
# carrvo There are a bunch of edits to the best that I can brainstorm at the moment, [tanktek]. Feel free to review (anyone).
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xandra.cc a dev contributor made a public statement complaining about pronouns, people were concerned about his position on trans folks considering there are trans folks on the MB platform, and the dev responded with a nothing-burger of an apology (expressing only an apology that people were offended), not clarifying his position, explicitly or vaguely, on trans folks. the response, then, was to ask the owner of MB about their position
# IWDiscord <xandra.cc>
# IWDiscord <xandra.cc>
# xandra.cc i tend to stay out of banal internet drama specifically *because* the winds of change blow faster on the web. however, what was angering to me especially, is the use of C&Ds, which are not legally binding BTW, to scare people who don’t know better into doing what they want because the person said things about them they didn’t like.
# xandra.cc i think in the indie web this is especially heinous because often, many website owners who have personal websites don’t know what is legally allowed/illegal to do with their sites. using a C&D to intimidate on this side of the web makes me very angry—regardless of who it was, regardless of who sent the C&D. i think it is a very bad precedent to set, especially between developers.
# xandra.cc [edit] i think in the indie web this is especially heinous because often, many website owners who have personal websites don’t know what is legally allowed/illegal to do with their sites. using a C&D to intimidate on this side of the web makes me very angry—regardless of who it was, regardless of who sent the C&D. i think it is a very bad precedent to set, especially between developers if that’s what happened*.
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gRegor Agree with all that^. I saw a lot of thoughtful commenters, people who appreciate mb, trying to get a response, very little "harassment". I think it was a poor decision for one of the outcomes to be "ok, we'll scrap the team page" (which the dev in question was listed on) instead of a clear response to the questions being posed.
# carrvo You do realize that being a bystander is not the same as harrassment (not that it is better)? You also realize that a decentralized/IndieWeb means that hatesites cannot be taken down, and the most (currently) you can do is block their webmentions and discourage your followers from visiting?
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# xandra.cc agreed. though we don’t know who sent the C&D, the owner of MB was lamenting on his blog about those blog posts “attacking” him and how much it was “affecting” him. since he was the one who publicly called the posts “attacks,” that is one of the reasons why i thought for sure it had been either MB or the owner that sent the C&D, so i’m sure if others came to that same conclusion it was likely based on that
# [tantek] we haven't seen it yet (AFAIK?) however IMO if someone in the indieweb community here was "complaining about pronouns", I would find that in very bad taste (at best) and would likely privately message them that that's not cool, and may be making quite a few community members here feel unwelcome. just my 2¢
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Loqi Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) is a United States copyright law https://indieweb.org/DMCA
# Loqi An Impressum is a disclosure of information about the person responsible for a website that appears to be required by laws in some countries https://indieweb.org/Impressum
# [Joe_Crawford] what is SLAPP
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "SLAPP" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "SLAPP is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# xandra.cc my understanding was that LGBTQ+ language wasn’t added to the code of conduct until after the blog writer and the MB owner were having it out. the MB owner was under the impression that they were “clear enough” despite members of the community (ones he said were obviously “safe” in his community) saying this wasn’t enough. it’s not enough to just say “we’re inclusive.”
# [Joe_Crawford] they were not. thus, this situation. more, it sure doesn't seem like they have a mechanism to adjust their codes of conduct that makes it feel like the people in it have a stake. some volunteer and support groups have a notion of a meeting about "group conscience"
# [Joe_Crawford] in this case, such a thing would be useful, because rather than "show us your good policy" it would be "let's craft a policy that serves us all well"
# [Joe_Crawford] and get participation.
# [Joe_Crawford] the service is a software service, but it has the _shape_ of a human social group.
# xandra.cc and wrt how the comment about pronouns got connected to the dev: my understanding is he didn’t make it hard to put two & two together. by the time i saw what the dev had said, it was screenshotted and attached to his name and micro.blog already. which should’ve been the chance for the MB owner to react swiftly.
# [Joe_Crawford] (an aside: I remember that at one time Facebook was small enough to be able to get people to voluntarily do their l18n and i18n work, why? because Facebook users thought of it as a community in a way similar to a Wikipedia)
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# [Joe_Crawford] being a jerk in a non-work setting can be used to affect your work. ask any of several Marvel movie and Star Wars movie actors.
# [Joe_Crawford] In a less flippant more, a respiratory therapist in California can have their license revoked for "The commission of any fraudulent, dishonest, or corrupt act that is substantially related to the qualifications, functions, or duties of a respiratory care practitioner."
# [Joe_Crawford] I think if you claim your business is "making spaces for people on the internet to be themselves" and with one of your guises say "pronouns are a stupid to care about" those things are in conflict.
# [Joe_Crawford] ( I had to start with the professional rules for RTs though. I'll always be artLUNG).
# [tantek] I think the forum of the post can matter quite a bit. There are plenty of folks that belong to various groups, whether religious, or political or whatever that hold particular beliefs & customs (that many folks and hiring/renting laws would consider discriminatory) that nonetheless do not express or practice those beliefs & customs at their place of work. That's not meant as a criticism, it's a lived reality for any company in the hundreds
# [tantek] if all those employees were "held accountable" to the discriminatory nature of their beliefs or customs, in the context of their work, then you'd have A LOT less diverse work places, and frankly that itself might be illegal in many cases at least in the US (discriminating against someone for their religion)
# [tantek] my point is, it's not so cut & dry that to say something of the form: person A says bad thing X in location Y disconnected from their work, therefore person A's workplace B must either say something public against X or be presumed to agree with bad thing X. (the worst case of this is of course the pressure on B to fire person A)
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# xandra.cc as an aside, over the last year the 32bc was targeted by a couple of well-known harassment forums for people on our forum/in our discord having some controversial (not immoral, hateful, or illegal - just opinionated) views on their blog. staff was barraged with emails and anonymous guestbook messages of "well if you're such a SAFE SPACE why haven't you kicked these people out???" (in bad faith, obviously, they hate the idea of
# xandra.cc we had to draw the line in the sand, publicly and with our community, that we as a community are not held responsible for someone being in our community for having opinions you disagree with. if those opinions aren't hateful, against the existence of a certain type of person (e.g. transphobia, xenophobia, antisemitic), or illegal, we're not going to remove folks from our community for things said off-platform (outside of disco
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