#meta 2025-12-19

2025-12-19 UTC
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gregorlove.com edited /resumé (+533) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ subsections, placeholder "since" dates, +addyourself" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /resumé (+4) "/* Kartik Prabhu */ +www, no-www hasn't worked for a while" (view diff)
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gRegor [artlung], want to add your retro resume on there? :) totally optional of course. ^
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gRegor what is cv
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Loqi A resumé or curriculum vitae (CV) is a document that represents a person's background and skills, commonly used to secure employment https://indieweb.org/cv
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gregorlove.com edited /resumé (+57) "/* Silo Examples */ note polywork returning 502 as of today" (view diff)
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artlung.com edited /resumé (+337) "Adding myself and my ancient resumes as well." (view diff)
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[artlung] [gRegorLove] sure. why not add some antiques.
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gRegor :D
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gRegor We can create a "Late 1900s" subsection
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artlung.com edited /resumé (+79) "/* Joe Crawford */" (view diff)
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[artlung] This morning I was saying that looking at a Classic Mac and a Wired Magazine in an exhibit at SF MOMA definitely felt incorrect. Those are just, things I had around.
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gRegor Indeed
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[tantek] Should we put discouragement of personal site "marketing" in our chat discuss descriptions? Like there are enough other SEO etc forums out there. We don't need to have that topic take up space & time here
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[artlung] "We are not a marketing outlet" seems a reasonable boundary to set.
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gRegor I guess? Might need to make some adjustments on https://indieweb.org/SEO first? Heh
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gRegor We have how to sections
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[artlung] that page is terrific because it links to this, which immediately appeals to me. https://chriscoyier.net/2023/11/08/everything-about-seo-is-obnoxious/
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[artlung] and this, which I've not read in a long time, but still? perfect. https://powazek.com/posts/2090
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gRegor what is POSSE Party?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "POSSE Party" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "POSSE Party is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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gRegor Interesting, just found via [aciccarello]'s link in main chat: https://posseparty.com/
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gRegor more of a dev thing than a service. I'm trying to remember the service... echofeed maybe?
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gRegor what is echofeed
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Loqi EchoFeed is a service to cross post from feeds to other services and includes support for sending Webmentions https://indieweb.org/echofeed
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gRegor POSSE << [https://posseparty.com/ POSSE Party]: self-hosted software for POSSE
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Loqi ok, I added "[https://posseparty.com/ POSSE Party]: self-hosted software for POSSE" to the "See Also" section of /POSSE https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=106852&oldid=100639
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gRegor heh, already on there! linksearch didn't seem to find it. updating.
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gregorlove.com edited /POSSE (-1) "mv posseparty under Software, +EchoFeed under Services" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /POSSE (+27) "/* Software */ dfn#id for posseparty" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com created /POSSE_Party (+30) "r" (view diff)
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adamperkowski.dev created /Template:adam (+163) "init" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com created /wiki_link_search (+32) "r" (view diff)
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adamperkowski.dev created /User:Adamperkowski.dev (+459) "init" (view diff)
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Loqi Just generated the first draft of this week's newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-12-19.html I'll generate a draft again tomorrow, so please add to it before then! https://indieweb.org/this-week#How_to
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[tantek] oh we need the group photo from IWC uploaded to the event!
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[tantek] searching...
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[tantek] added
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[artlung] Oooh. I think I have an Eastern photo un-uploaded.
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[tantek] on another topic, I am now convinced that Mediawiki (or HTML) table markup does not scale to collaboration in any small to medium sized communities, and in general poses a non-trivial contribution/editing barrier to 99% of the people in a community
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[artlung] Making note to do tomorrow
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aaronpk Just now convinced??
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cupparex [tantek] I saw the issue with the seo stuff in chat earlier and I know we had discussed the GDPR compliance thing before I fully had a grasp on appropriate topics or community norms here. I've started writing something with the intention tohelp out and I thought it would be good on community norms wiki page. but please let me know if you'd like it somewhere else or if you don't think it's needed. I'm writing it in docs but had
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cupparex Community Norms
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cupparex Like other communities, online and offline, IndieWeb has community norms that have been created over time and are practiced in chat and at community events. This community is welcoming and inclusive, but there are expectations of community members, located in the Indieweb Principles, the Code of Conduct, and there are some unspoken, more nuanced guidelines that are learned over time.
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cupparex Community norms are the written and unwritten rules that members of a specific community abide by to foster connection between members and strengthen the shared vision and purpose of that community.
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IWDiscord <c​upparex>
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IWDiscord <c​upparex>
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cupparex By participating in chat and other community events, you’re agreeing to not just the written rules, but you are also committing to learning about the unwritten rules within the community.
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IWDiscord <c​upparex>
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IWDiscord <c​upparex>
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cupparex Learn About IndieWeb Community Norms
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cupparex In addition to the IndieWeb Principles and the Code of Conduct, below you can learn about other IndieWeb Community Norms.
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[tantek] whoa too much paste
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[tantek] for chat
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cupparex sorry about that. I didn't realize it would take up so muc room
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cupparex still hesitant to just create a page on the wiki
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[tantek] I mean it's a useful reminder
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[tantek] we probably do need to consider some guidance about posting whole paragraphs of other "walls of text". they tend to be harmful to informal back/forth chat
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cupparex there's not "community norm" wiki page. i saw lurking. i thought it would be a good place to put things like accepted topics and such.
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[tantek] we already have /discuss and /relevant for that though
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[tantek] might be helpful to add a list of anti-topics for those that come up multiple times
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cupparex ok, I was just trying to help.
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[tantek] what is discuss
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Loqi 💬 Join #indieweb discussions via Discord, Slack, web chat, or IRC, (they are all bridged!) with focused channels for developers, WordPress, and meta topics! https://indieweb.org/Discuss
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[tantek] that could use some expansion
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[tantek] yes cupparex, that is a very helpful observation about community "norms" not necessarily being obvious or clear
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[tantek] what is relevant
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Loqi Anything directly related to people with their own websites, such as technologies and services used, design and UX, formats and protocols, as well as events or podcasts with IndieWeb talks or content are relevant to the IndieWeb wiki https://indieweb.org/relevant
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cupparex and I'm sorry about the wall of text. every time i think I have something I think is a good idea to add to the wiki it gets shut down or I'm told it's not needed, so I wanted to ok it before I made a page.
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[tantek] much of what you're observing as norms has been borrowed from other communities and is not unique
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[tantek] e.g. chats in general discourage pasting large blocks of text
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[tantek] and many wikis have User: pages for folks to experiment with content (e.g. in subpages)
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[tantek] one tip about "have something I think is a good idea to add to the wiki" — before jumping into writing something up, consider asking in chat if the topic exists on the wiki. there's a good chance there is already some documentation that folks can point to
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[tantek] that will hopefully save you time, and provide a foundation to contribute new thoughts to, instead of having to write up the whole thing by yourself
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[tantek] it's a bit of a mindset shift from individual-centric to community-centric. instead of "hey I have an idea and I should write it up" -> "hey community is there a page on this topic? I have some thoughts"
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cupparex I did look for a page on the topic of community norms
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[tantek] again, there's that "I" part. instead of looking yourself and then assuming when you don't find anything that it doesn't exist, *ask* the community.
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cupparex i knew about discuss, i saw lurking, and a few other related things, but I didn't know where what I wrote would or should live. After seeing a couple issues where people made some snaffus (me included) I thought it was helpful to just list out a few things.
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cupparex I was asking you. That's why ididn't create a page
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cupparex That was what i was trying to do by getting your ok or opinion or direction
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cupparex I wasn't assuming it didn't exist at all, I reached out to you
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tantek.com edited /discuss (+138) "add events, keep chats brief, relevant" (view diff)
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[tantek] what is discuss
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Loqi 💬 Join #indieweb discussions via Discord, Slack, web chat, or IRC, (they are all bridged!) with focused channels for developers, events, meta topics, and WordPress! Please keep chats brief and relevant to the IndieWeb community https://indieweb.org/discuss
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gRegor I think this is partly another difference with Discord. I don't think it discourages longer texts, so I wouldn't expect it to be obvious if that's the chat client people are coming from. They make it easy to paste code and other longer text, preserving newlines.
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[tantek] good insight gRegor
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gRegor It does have a limit, something like 5k characters though, haha
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[tantek] huh, I wonder if that is configurable per server
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cupparex I am on discord and have not been on other chats much, so I didn't realize, truly sorry
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gRegor I think you're fine, cupparex, innocent mistake. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on any rough edges of the community. We can always improve incrementally. :)
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[tantek] +1
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cupparex also [tantek] I'm trying to understand and get clarification. I do understand community vs individual, what I'm struggling with is how I can contribute. I see all of these things mentioned about asking people to participate and I am not a dev so I naturally try to see where I can be helpful on the wiki. I know I got frustrated, but it's because I would like to help.
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www.morganwebdev.org edited /User:Www.morganwebdev.org (-386) "Disinterest" (view diff)
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www.morganwebdev.org edited /User:Www.morganwebdev.org (+352) "Specific reasons why I lost interest in IndieWeb Wiki, personal frustrations with cult of personality" (view diff)
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gRegor Discord 2k limit, not configurable as far as I can tell. Looks like it's been a longstanding feature request: https://support.discord.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/360031093812
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gRegor cupparex, if you don't mind sharing, perhaps you could share the longer thoughts about community norms on a subpage of your user page? I'd be interested in reading, especially any things that seem to be unspoken norms. You can visit any sub-page URL, like https://indieweb.org/User:Crystaltouchton.com/community-norms and create the page.
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gRegor I use sub-pages like that to try out some longer edits or new pages I want to draft before putting in a proper space on the wiki
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cupparex gRegor: Until creating my user page, I'd never done anything on a wiki. I didn't know a subpage was an option. So, I'd create it there, much like a post on my blog, and just link to it from my user page?
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gRegor Happy to help! Yeah, you can create a link to any page with square brackets around the text, so that example link I used would be: `[[User:Crystaltouchton.com/community-norms]]` You can do that even if the page doesn't exist yet, in which case the link will be red. Clicking a red link should prompt you to create the page, if you're signed in.
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[tantek] gRegor++
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Loqi gRegor has 37 karma in this channel over the last year (123 in all channels)
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cupparex eRegor++
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Loqi eRegor has 1 karma over the last year
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cupparex gRegor++
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Loqi gRegor has 38 karma in this channel over the last year (124 in all channels)
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gRegor Here's a quick demo: https://indieweb.org/User:Gregorlove.com/sandbox#wiki_link_markup
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cupparex thank you
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gRegor Welcome!
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cupparex quick qustion - not long ago I read a concept about going ahead and asking your question before saying hi. Do you know what that concept was or the page it's on?
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gRegor I think that's "no hello"
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gRegor what is no hello?
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Loqi No Hello is a philosophy and website encouraging people to “Just ask the question” instead of saying "hi", "yo", "hello", "anyone there?", "you there?" in chat or direct messages (texts or DMs), with several IndieWeb community members encouraging this practice of getting to the point in their own communication protocols https://indieweb.org/no_hello
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cupparex thank you! my brain could not pull that up
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cupparex gRegor++
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www.morganwebdev.org edited /User:Www.morganwebdev.org (+427) "Expanded summary explanation of why I won't be volunteering at all" (view diff)
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gRegor cupparex, aside, I sent a reply to https://crystaltouchton.com/wherethetidespeaks/, might have been caught as spam in WordPress as a first time commenter. great post!
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cupparex gRegor: thank you, I'll check and thanks for the heads up and the help here.
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www.morganwebdev.org edited /User:Www.morganwebdev.org (+334) "An example of an actually important material website I can work on, rather than circle-mentions." (view diff)
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www.morganwebdev.org edited /User:Www.morganwebdev.org (+324) "Just some minor formatting tweaks to my userpage; Emphasizing the importance of making websites people do actually read sometimes from search engines even in 2025." (view diff)
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www.morganwebdev.org edited /User:Www.morganwebdev.org (-212) "Cleaned this up, left the main message, removed some opinions" (view diff)
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www.morganwebdev.org edited /User:Www.morganwebdev.org (-404) "Last update 12/18/2025 some userpage cleanup -> back in the new year, maybe" (view diff)
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[pfefferle] The Wiki seems a bit broken for me
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[pfefferle] I see a lot of Exceptions
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[pfefferle] here for example https://indieweb.org/POSSE
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[pfefferle] > /POSSE Wikimedia\Rdbms\DBConnectionError: Cannot access the database: Connection refused
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[jeremycherfas] Yeah, it has been down for a while.
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[tantek] It's been a bad year for LLM crawling bot traffic harming websites
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[tantek] Ok who has a personal website with a MySQL backend that's still running today?
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[lazcorp] [tantek] I do
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[lazcorp] (but I do have page caches set up, so most pages won't trigger a DB call more than once every 5 minutes)
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[tantek] LLMcrawlers--
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Loqi LLMcrawlers has -1 karma over the last year
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[artlung] !tell aaronpk database errors in the indieweb wiki
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk boo
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Loqi aaronpk: [artlung] left you a message 16 minutes ago: database errors in the indieweb wiki
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aaronpk Fixed
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Loqi hugops has 4 karma in this channel over the last year (10 in all channels)
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[schmarty] aaronpk++ hugops++
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Loqi aaronpk has 37 karma in this channel over the last year (138 in all channels)
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[tantek] aaronpk++ hugops++
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Loqi hugops has 5 karma in this channel over the last year (11 in all channels)
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Loqi aaronpk has 38 karma in this channel over the last year (139 in all channels)
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aaronpk Maybe I should just set up a cron job to restart the database every night 😅
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aaronpk The last couple times that's happened has been around the same time of day too
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aaronpk I don't understand why the Linux system isn't restarting it itself tho, I thought that was the whole point of systemd or whatever
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kaja.sknebel.net edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net/upcoming-hwcs (-200) "update from events.indieweb.org" (view diff)
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kaja.sknebel.net edited /Template:next-hwc (+0) "update next date from events.indieweb.org" (view diff)
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cupparex On https://indieweb.org/discuss there is a proposal for a separate channel for questions about HTML, CSS, and other technical issues for beginners interested in learning or who are having problems in this area. If that discussion is still in progress, I'd like to suggest #tech-help as the name for that channel.
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aaronpk i think that falls pretty well in scope of #indieweb-dev, assuming it's in the context of a personal website
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-12-19.html
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cupparex aaronpk: ok, on discuss the proposal was because some beginners are intimidated by a lot of the other more deeper discussions. I was just piggybacking on that. As a beginner it seemed like a good idea.
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kaja.sknebel.net edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net/upcoming-hwcs (+200) "update from events.indieweb.org" (view diff)
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aaronpk ah gotcha
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cupparex there was a list of name ideas and it seem like the discussion had stalled out
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crystaltouchton.com edited /discuss (+214) "/* web making naming */" (view diff)
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cupparex added just in case this discussion revives
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-12-19.html
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[tantek] cupparex++ for contributing to discuss! Could you also add your +1/0/-1 on the other suggested names for HTML, CSS discussions?
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Loqi cupparex has 2 karma in this channel over the last year (20 in all channels)
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-12-19.html
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-12-19.html
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tantek.com edited /Bridgy_Fed (+315) "/* How to */ How to force a delivery" (view diff)
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-12-19.html
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capjamesg !archive https://events.indieweb.org/2025/12/homebrew-website-club-eastern-8xJ5TiPtMfHe
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cali-iwc-archive Created https://indieweb.org/events/2025-12-17-hwc-eastern. Please review the page to ensure the document is correctly formatted and remove any unnecessary text.
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capjamesg [edit] !archive https://events.indieweb.org/2025/12/homebrew-website-club-eastern-8xJ5TiPtMfHe
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cali.jamesg.blog created /events/2025-12-17-hwc-eastern (+4750) "Created event page using IndieWeb events / Etherpad archiver" (view diff)
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capjamesg [tantek] Archived ✅
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jamesg.blog edited /events/2025-12-17-hwc-eastern (-206) "clean up formatting" (view diff)
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[tantek] capjamesg++ thank you
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Loqi capjamesg has 26 karma in this channel over the last year (208 in all channels)
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-12-19.html
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-12-19.html
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www.morganwebdev.org edited /User:Www.morganwebdev.org (+593) "Explaining that in the USA, some of us have to work for health insurance" (view diff)
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-12-19.html
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crystaltouchton.com created /User:Crystaltouchton.com/community_norms (+2934) "Created page with "<b>(In Progress/Test/Possible Page or some Elements Moved to an existing page)</b> <BR> Notes: Add links <DFN><b>Community norms</b></DFN> are the written and unwritten rules that members of a specific community abide by to foster connections between members and strengthen the shared vision and purpose of that community. Like other communities, online and offline, IndieWeb has community norms that have been created over time and practiced in chat and at community event..."" (view diff)
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cupparex @gRegor You said last night you'd like to read my thoughts about the community norms and the ideas I had. I used your suggestion (thank you again btw) and started a test page. https://indieweb.org/User:Crystaltouchton.com/community_norms
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cupparex If nothing else, it helped me get a little more comfortable with the way the wiki works. I'm out of time for now, but I plan to go back and add in links.
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gRegor cupparex++ Awesome! I look forward to reading it
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Loqi cupparex has 3 karma in this channel over the last year (21 in all channels)
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Loqi CuppaRex[d] has 4 karma in this channel over the last year (22 in all channels)
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capjamesg CuppaRex[d] ++ this is great!
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gRegor Yeah pages under your User: page are a great place to try things out. The initial page creation will show up in these logs, but if you want subsequent edits to be quiet and not show up here, you can check the "minor edit" box when you're editing. I do that often on my "sandbox" page, trying out new wiki templates and such
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-12-19.html
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-12-19.html
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-12-19.html
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[KevinMarks] [tantek] table markup is hard. What works there is spreadsheet style wysiwyg - there are collab tools that work that way, such as Airtable
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Loqi Generated a new draft of the newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-12-19.html
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Loqi Just generated this week's newsletter! You still have a few minutes to make changes, and I'll re-generate it 10 minutes before it gets sent out at 3pm Pacific time. https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-12-19.html
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[artlung] really glad I put that photo for the eastern meeting in place last night. this morning has been busy
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[artlung] (as he says "this morning" at 247pm)
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gRegor good aftermorning
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Loqi Generated the final version of the newsletter! This will be sent out at 3pm Pacific time. https://indieweb.org/this-week/2025-12-19.html
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[tantek] newsletter looks good! lots of events in the past week!
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cupparex thank you @gRegor and capjamesg[d]
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tantek.com edited /card_catalog (+8) "linky" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2025-12-indieweb-gift-calendar (+135) "+18 HWC DUS!" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2025-12-indieweb-gift-calendar (+103) "+19th HWC EU notes, newsletter!" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2025-12-indieweb-gift-calendar (-59) "one present confirmed, another sparkle evaporated" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2025-12-indieweb-gift-calendar (+2) "today's event notes were from HWC Eastern" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /32-Bit_Cafe (+282) "link directly to code of conduct, rules, guidelines" (view diff)
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Loqi cupparex has 5 karma in this channel over the last year (23 in all channels)
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[tantek] cupparex++ appreciate you writing up your thoughts on community norms.
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[tantek] I have been looking at other community's norms as well, e.g. 32-bit cafe has this: https://discourse.32bit.cafe/guidelines — curious if you have seen it and if so what you think about the section "Participating in the Community" https://discourse.32bit.cafe/guidelines#p-4-participating-in-the-community-4 and further sections
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cupparex [tantek]: Is there a specific part of the "Participating in the Community" that you're asking about or something specific you'd like to point out or ask about?
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[tantek] I think nearly the entirety of the guidelines in that section and below