#microformats 2017-05-30

2017-05-30 UTC
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[shaners] Sent to support@github.com
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[shaners] https://gist.github.com/veganstraightedge/6a5825de9fbfb69fbd714b961f094cd9
[cleverdevil], KartikPrabhu, davidmead, nitot and gRegorLove joined the channel
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gRegorLove The spec doesn't seem to say this, but I'm wondering if a dt-start has a tz offset and the dt-end does not, should the same tz be implied in the parsed results. E.g. https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2/issues/126
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Loqi [sknebel] #126 Fails to recognize timezone in extra value-class-pattern-element
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KartikPrabhu gRegorLove: my first reaction is that it should be left to the consumer and not the parser
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steffanjackson edited /get-started () "(-5419) mozilla Firefox customer service phone number" (view diff)
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gregorlove edited /get-started (+5419) "rollback spam" (view diff)
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gRegorLove !tell tantek I rolled back this spam, but could you block? https://chat.indieweb.org/microformats/2017-05-30#t1496129841951000
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi [steffanjackson] edited /get-started () "(-5419) mozilla Firefox customer service phone number"
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KartikPrabhu !tell tantek spam! ^
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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sknebel !tell gRegorlove: thanks for quick responses. Regarding timezones, there is this http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-issues#implied_date_for_dt_properties_both_mf2_and_backcompat which makes it read like the implied timezone from the value-class-pattern page could/should also be applied to mf2 parsng? If not, that would certainly be a nice feature-flag to have
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi microformats2-parsing-issues
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sknebel !tell gRegorLove: nevermind, it only talks about implied timezones on a different section of the page, so this really could use clarification (*not* implying timezones but implying dates (which php-mf2 already does) seems really odd)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Zegnat I would say everything that is defined on dt-start carries over to dt-end, including tz info? (Is that what this is about?)
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sknebel yes, but it doesn't clearly say that
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@gemmaVNash @microformats any idea why http://www.bgs.ac.uk/staff/profiles/0077.html won't download to vcf? I've used the latest h-card syntax. Thanks! (twitter.com/_/status/869553410219151360)
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Zegnat Isn’t this up to consumers though? Or do mf parsers return normalised timestamps? I was under the impression that parsers should only return what was actually on the page (e.g. "end" would get value "21:00" not "2017-05-31T21:00+02:00")
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sknebel Zegnat: http://microformats.org/wiki/value-class-pattern#microformats2_parsers
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Zegnat Oh wow I somehow glanced over the very first paragraph.
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Zegnat face-palms
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sknebel happens. it took me ages to find and realize it applies as well
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Zegnat So dt-* values with only a time only happen when there isn’t a single dt-* including a date on the entire page?
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Zegnat Or what does “in that microformat” mean? That it is scoped to the current h-*?
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sknebel Zegnat: the latter, at least to my understanding
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Zegnat Oh, hmm, and it only does applied date when vcp is used. So if I do <abbr class="dt-end" title="21:00">9 o’clock</abbr> the mf2 parser must return only "21:00".
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sknebel that seems to be correct
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Zegnat seems iffy too, at least to me
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sknebel yes, I'm not sure why it is limited to vcp
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Zegnat So… assuming dt-start as per your issue:
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Zegnat <abbr class="dt-end" title="21:00">9 o’clock</abbr> = ["end"=>"21:00"]
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Zegnat <span class="dt-end"><abbr class="value" title="21:00">9 o’clock</abbr></span> = ["end"=>"2017-05-31T19:00"]
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Zegnat Actually, your current example wouldn’t get an implied date on the dt-end either, as it isn’t using vcp for dt-end
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sknebel ... you are right
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sknebel and php-mf2 still does the implied date
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sknebel and I can't turn it into a vcp without adding another nested element
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sknebel *sigh*
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Zegnat Definitely a bug in php-mf2
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sknebel sounds like that's worth a more general issue, before I start complaining to more parsers about what they do
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Zegnat As per http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing#parsing_a_dt-_property it should just return textContent of the element
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Loqi [Tantek Çelik] microformats2 parsing specification
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sknebel yes
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Zegnat Not so much a discussion of vcp (which is pretty clear) but on implied dates. Maybe implied dates should be removed from vcp and be moved to dt-* parsing?
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sknebel maybe, there'd be easier to find there as well...
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sknebel oh, for the implied timezone there already is an issue: https://github.com/microformats/microformats2-parsing/issues/4
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Loqi [tantek] #4 vcp: imply dates should also imply tz if needed
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Zegnat I am pondering how to writup an issue on implied dates in general. I can come up with examples, but not really a clear course of action
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sknebel make a gist or etherpad and let's discuss/interate there before filing it?
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@marccold The Scope Note Person ("The world's most welcome 'Well, actually...'!") The Vinegar Syndrome ("Jack Lemmon and I save your microformats!") (twitter.com/_/status/869570510094573569)
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Zegnat Probably a good idea. My evening is pretty full though, so not sure I have time to sit down and look atit
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@ankedesign Wie gebruikt vaker microformats, en kan me vertellen tot in hoeverre v2 (.h-card) ondersteund wordt tov v1 (.vcard)? #halp (twitter.com/_/status/869577594437554176)
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sknebel ^^^ Zegnat you speak that language
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Zegnat Replied
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sknebel I saw, thx
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sknebel wasn't entirely sure about the meaning, and twitter translate button made it worse :P
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Zegnat They were asking how much support for v2 there is, compared to v1. So told them indieweb.org and W3 standards like Micropub are all v2, as well as parsers (with microformats.io link). If they do find a specific usecase for v1 I asked them to get in touch
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sknebel Zegnat++
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Loqi zegnat has 2 karma in this channel (54 overall)
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sknebel Zegnat: seems like various parsers do the implicit date when they shouldn't
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Zegnat All or some?
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sknebel some
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Zegnat Ugh
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Zegnat Would have been easier if all of them just did it and we could write it up as a defacto standard
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sknebel seems like only the go one does it "correctly"
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sknebel (from the 5 ones on mf.io)
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sknebel 3 of those have the timezone bug, the JS one does parse the timezone correctly and implies it onto dt-end
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Zegnat It looks like Go is written against https://github.com/microformats/tests/ ... I am guessing there are no (or little) tests on implied date data
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sknebel yes, I really have to submit a test PR for that
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@ankedesign Microformats v2 it is! https://twitter.com/martijnvdven/status/869580259947151360 (twitter.com/_/status/869593743028105217)
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Zegnat Is it true that Google’s format checker still only picks up vcard? https://twitter.com/ankedesign/status/869593368506105856
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Loqi [@ankedesign] @martijnvdven Ha, dank! Heb v2 gebruikt, maar twijfelde omdat bv o.a. de Google checker V2 niet herkent.
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gRegorLove Not sure about format checkers, but search still uses hReview
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Loqi gRegorLove: sknebel left you a message 4 hours, 35 minutes ago: thanks for quick responses. Regarding timezones, there is this http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-issues#implied_date_for_dt_properties_both_mf2_and_backcompat which makes it read like the implied timezone from the value-class-pattern page could/should also be applied to mf2 parsng? If not, that would certainly be a nice feature-flag to have
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Loqi gRegorLove: sknebel left you a message 4 hours, 1 minute ago: nevermind, it only talks about implied timezones on a different section of the page, so this really could use clarification (*not* implying timezones but implying dates (which php-mf2 already does) seems really odd)
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gRegorLove I've got the VCP timezone fix working locally. Will run some more tests and PR today or tomorrow.
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aaronpk gRegorLove++ on a roll
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Loqi gregorlove has 8 karma in this channel (138 overall)
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sknebel and what I forgot to link in the !tells, there is an issue for timezones in it as well https://github.com/microformats/microformats2-parsing/issues/4
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Loqi [tantek] #4 vcp: imply dates should also imply tz if needed
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tantek perks up
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Loqi tantek: gRegorLove left you a message 3 days, 19 hours ago: More spam :/ https://chat.indieweb.org/microformats/2017-05-26#t1495834694682000
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Loqi tantek: gRegorLove left you a message 2 days, 19 hours ago: We were wondering about the reasoning for "html-lang" instead of just "lang" here: http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing-brainstorming&diff=prev&oldid=65421
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Loqi tantek: gRegorLove left you a message 9 hours, 41 minutes ago: I rolled back this spam, but could you block? https://chat.indieweb.org/microformats/2017-05-30#t1496129841951000
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Loqi tantek: KartikPrabhu left you a message 9 hours, 37 minutes ago: spam! ^
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tantek oh boy
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aaronpk lol
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tantek edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:Sabnajauzzz]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites" (view diff)
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gRegorLove o/ tantek. Sorry there aren't happier tells :)
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tantek gRegorLove: wow they started putting "." in words to avoid the regexes!!!
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gRegorLove /get-started was quickly re-spammed after I reverted
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tantek like t.ech s.upport wtf
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tantek deleted /User_talk:((1))_Gmail_Tech_Support_1-888-950-6111_Gmail_Customer_Care_Number_1.888.950.6111_Gmail_Support_Phone_Number "Spam"
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tantek deleted /User_talk:Gmail_Technical_Support_Phone_Number_1-888-950-6111_Gmail_tech_support_number "Spam"
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tantek deleted /User_talk:((2)))Gmail_Customer_Care_Number_1-888-950-6111_Gmail_Tech_Support_Phone_Number "Spam"
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tantek deleted /User_talk:@Gmail_tech_Support_Number_@1-888-950-6111@_Gmail_tech_support_phone_number "Spam"
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tantek deleted /User_talk:Gmail_toll_free_number_1-888-950-6111_Gmail_customer_support_number_Gmail_tech_support_phone_number "Spam"
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tantek edited /Special:Log/block () "blocked [[User:Steffanjackson]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites" (view diff)
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tantek gRegorLove: did you implement https://github.com/microformats/microformats2-parsing/issues/4 ? could you comment there?
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Loqi [tantek] #4 vcp: imply dates should also imply tz if needed
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gRegorLove Re: https://chat.indieweb.org/microformats/2017-05-30#t1496153320060000 yeah, it does seem like the non-VCP dt-* parsing should imply from last seen dt-*
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Loqi [Zegnat] Oh, hmm, and it only does applied date when vcp is used. So if I do <abbr class="dt-end" title="21:00">9 o’clock</abbr> the mf2 parser must return only "21:00".
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gRegorLove tantek: I did not; raised the question about it last night; hadn't seen the issue yet.
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gRegorLove I can implement it pretty easily though.
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gRegorLove This is the issue I was referring to having fixed locally: https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2/issues/126
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Loqi [sknebel] #126 Fails to recognize timezone in extra value-class-pattern-element
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tantek non-VCP dt-* implying could be both useful and dangerous (in terms of changing the content that's out there)
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sknebel tantek indeed
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sknebel but 4 parsers do it already
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sknebel out of 6 I tested
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sknebel (writing an issue about it right now)
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tantek oh that's interesting
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tantek that seems to imply that it's intended in the content then, I doubt that many parsers would do extra work to misinterpret content like that
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tantek sknebel: are you writing a parser issue to suggest adopting it as a parser change?
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gRegorLove on indieweb.org/events we pretty commonly use non-VCP dates with the date part implied in the dt-end.
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sknebel no, in microformats-parsing-issues to ask if it's supposed to be handled as bug in the parsers or maybe changed in mf2
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Zegnat I would guess it is seen as “intended” because very few end times use vcp, yet dt-end on events is where people expect the implied dates.
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tantek ok
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sknebel tantek: issue filed https://github.com/microformats/microformats2-parsing/issues/8
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Loqi [sknebel] #8 imply dates also outside vcp?
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gRegorLove Example: http://php.microformats.io/?id=20170530175025393
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tantek gRegorLove: html-lang and html-id to avoid confusing them with a possible actual property p-lang or p-id (which we don't have but might / could, especially from a vocabulary agnostic parser perspective)
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tantek is that worth adding to that brainstorm?
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gRegorLove tantek: Makes sense. Yeah, I'll add it there. That's released in php-mf2 now, btw, behind a feature flag.
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tantek ooh nice
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gregorlove edited /microformats2-parsing-brainstorming (+373) "/* Parse language information */ Q+A about html-lang, noted php-mf2 release with lang support" (view diff)
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@technololigy @hikari_no_yume The entire TWEWY wiki has it, I mostly just use microformats these days (twitter.com/_/status/869621439476908032)
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gRegorLove tantek: Looking at the lang parsing again, the "html-lang" key doesn't show up in properties, only within e-* objects and at the same level as "type" and "properties", so maybe the prefix isn't necessary?
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aaronpk that's what i was thinking
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gRegorLove And I think if it was ever expanded to allow parsing on individual properties, like p-name, we'd need to come up with some other solution
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gRegorLove *lang parsing
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aaronpk yeah, it's a little unfortunate it doesn't translate nicely for things like p-name
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aaronpk i think the closest you'd get is changing the value of the name property to an object like how e-content is parsed
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aaronpk so {"name":{"value":"foo","lang":"en":}}
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gRegorLove Yeah, so I don't think 'lang' and 'id' are at much risk of collision in the future
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aaronpk yeah it will never exist alongside vocab properties
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gregorlove edited /microformats2-parsing-brainstorming (+98) "link to github for current/new issues, wiki for resolved before 2016-06-20 issues" (view diff)
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@carlmalamud @cypresslaw @EJWalters Not sure. I think microformats, general consensus a better approach then canonical visual st… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/869671615247679488 (twitter.com/_/status/869671615247679488)
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