#microformats 2017-05-30

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gRegorLove
The spec doesn't seem to say this, but I'm wondering if a dt-start has a tz offset and the dt-end does not, should the same tz be implied in the parsed results. E.g. https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2/issues/126
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Loqi
[sknebel] #126 Fails to recognize timezone in extra value-class-pattern-element
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KartikPrabhu
gRegorLove: my first reaction is that it should be left to the consumer and not the parser
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steffanjackson
edited /get-started () "(-5419) mozilla Firefox customer service phone number"
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gregorlove
edited /get-started (+5419) "rollback spam"
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gRegorLove
!tell tantek I rolled back this spam, but could you block? https://chat.indieweb.org/microformats/2017-05-30#t1496129841951000
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi
[steffanjackson] edited /get-started () "(-5419) mozilla Firefox customer service phone number"
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KartikPrabhu
!tell tantek spam! ^
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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sknebel
!tell gRegorlove: thanks for quick responses. Regarding timezones, there is this http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-issues#implied_date_for_dt_properties_both_mf2_and_backcompat which makes it read like the implied timezone from the value-class-pattern page could/should also be applied to mf2 parsng? If not, that would certainly be a nice feature-flag to have
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi
microformats2-parsing-issues
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sknebel
!tell gRegorLove: nevermind, it only talks about implied timezones on a different section of the page, so this really could use clarification (*not* implying timezones but implying dates (which php-mf2 already does) seems really odd)
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Zegnat
I would say everything that is defined on dt-start carries over to dt-end, including tz info? (Is that what this is about?)
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sknebel
yes, but it doesn't clearly say that
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@gemmaVNash
@microformats any idea why http://www.bgs.ac.uk/staff/profiles/0077.html won't download to vcf? I've used the latest h-card syntax. Thanks!
(twtr.io/1SH5nNMb4G0)
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Zegnat
Isn’t this up to consumers though? Or do mf parsers return normalised timestamps? I was under the impression that parsers should only return what was actually on the page (e.g. "end" would get value "21:00" not "2017-05-31T21:00+02:00")
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Zegnat
Oh wow I somehow glanced over the very first paragraph.
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Zegnat
face-palms
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sknebel
happens. it took me ages to find and realize it applies as well
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Zegnat
So dt-* values with only a time only happen when there isn’t a single dt-* including a date on the entire page?
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Zegnat
Or what does “in that microformat” mean? That it is scoped to the current h-*?
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sknebel
Zegnat: the latter, at least to my understanding
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Zegnat
Oh, hmm, and it only does applied date when vcp is used. So if I do <abbr class="dt-end" title="21:00">9 o’clock</abbr> the mf2 parser must return only "21:00".
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sknebel
that seems to be correct
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Zegnat
seems iffy too, at least to me
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sknebel
yes, I'm not sure why it is limited to vcp
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Zegnat
So… assuming dt-start as per your issue:
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Zegnat
<abbr class="dt-end" title="21:00">9 o’clock</abbr> = ["end"=>"21:00"]
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Zegnat
<span class="dt-end"><abbr class="value" title="21:00">9 o’clock</abbr></span> = ["end"=>"2017-05-31T19:00"]
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Zegnat
Actually, your current example wouldn’t get an implied date on the dt-end either, as it isn’t using vcp for dt-end
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sknebel
... you are right
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sknebel
and php-mf2 still does the implied date
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sknebel
and I can't turn it into a vcp without adding another nested element
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sknebel
*sigh*
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Zegnat
Definitely a bug in php-mf2
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sknebel
sounds like that's worth a more general issue, before I start complaining to more parsers about what they do
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Zegnat
As per http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing#parsing_a_dt-_property it should just return textContent of the element
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Loqi
[Tantek Çelik] microformats2 parsing specification
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Zegnat
Not so much a discussion of vcp (which is pretty clear) but on implied dates. Maybe implied dates should be removed from vcp and be moved to dt-* parsing?
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sknebel
maybe, there'd be easier to find there as well...
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sknebel
oh, for the implied timezone there already is an issue: https://github.com/microformats/microformats2-parsing/issues/4
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Loqi
[tantek] #4 vcp: imply dates should also imply tz if needed
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Zegnat
I am pondering how to writup an issue on implied dates in general. I can come up with examples, but not really a clear course of action
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sknebel
make a gist or etherpad and let's discuss/interate there before filing it?
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@marccold
The Scope Note Person ("The world's most welcome 'Well, actually...'!") The Vinegar Syndrome ("Jack Lemmon and I save your microformats!")
(twtr.io/1SHBtswRzKV)
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Zegnat
Probably a good idea. My evening is pretty full though, so not sure I have time to sit down and look atit
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@ankedesign
Wie gebruikt vaker microformats, en kan me vertellen tot in hoeverre v2 (.h-card) ondersteund wordt tov v1 (.vcard)? #halp
(twtr.io/1SHERiTq9Vb)
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sknebel
^^^ Zegnat you speak that language
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Zegnat
Replied
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sknebel
I saw, thx
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sknebel
wasn't entirely sure about the meaning, and twitter translate button made it worse :P
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Zegnat
They were asking how much support for v2 there is, compared to v1. So told them indieweb.org and W3 standards like Micropub are all v2, as well as parsers (with microformats.io link). If they do find a specific usecase for v1 I asked them to get in touch
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sknebel
Zegnat++
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Loqi
zegnat has 2 karma in this channel (54 overall)
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sknebel
Zegnat: seems like various parsers do the implicit date when they shouldn't
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Zegnat
All or some?
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Zegnat
Would have been easier if all of them just did it and we could write it up as a defacto standard
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sknebel
seems like only the go one does it "correctly"
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sknebel
(from the 5 ones on mf.io)
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sknebel
3 of those have the timezone bug, the JS one does parse the timezone correctly and implies it onto dt-end
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Zegnat
It looks like Go is written against https://github.com/microformats/tests/ ... I am guessing there are no (or little) tests on implied date data
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sknebel
yes, I really have to submit a test PR for that
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Zegnat
Is it true that Google’s format checker still only picks up vcard? https://twitter.com/ankedesign/status/869593368506105856
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Loqi
[@ankedesign] @martijnvdven Ha, dank! Heb v2 gebruikt, maar twijfelde omdat bv o.a. de Google checker V2 niet herkent.
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gRegorLove
Not sure about format checkers, but search still uses hReview
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Loqi
gRegorLove: sknebel left you a message 4 hours, 35 minutes ago: thanks for quick responses. Regarding timezones, there is this http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-issues#implied_date_for_dt_properties_both_mf2_and_backcompat which makes it read like the implied timezone from the value-class-pattern page could/should also be applied to mf2 parsng? If not, that would certainly be a nice feature-flag to have
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Loqi
gRegorLove: sknebel left you a message 4 hours, 1 minute ago: nevermind, it only talks about implied timezones on a different section of the page, so this really could use clarification (*not* implying timezones but implying dates (which php-mf2 already does) seems really odd)
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gRegorLove
I've got the VCP timezone fix working locally. Will run some more tests and PR today or tomorrow.
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aaronpk
gRegorLove++ on a roll
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Loqi
gregorlove has 8 karma in this channel (138 overall)
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sknebel
and what I forgot to link in the !tells, there is an issue for timezones in it as well https://github.com/microformats/microformats2-parsing/issues/4
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Loqi
[tantek] #4 vcp: imply dates should also imply tz if needed
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tantek
perks up
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Loqi
tantek: gRegorLove left you a message 3 days, 19 hours ago: More spam :/ https://chat.indieweb.org/microformats/2017-05-26#t1495834694682000
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Loqi
tantek: gRegorLove left you a message 2 days, 19 hours ago: We were wondering about the reasoning for "html-lang" instead of just "lang" here: http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing-brainstorming&diff=prev&oldid=65421
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Loqi
tantek: gRegorLove left you a message 9 hours, 41 minutes ago: I rolled back this spam, but could you block? https://chat.indieweb.org/microformats/2017-05-30#t1496129841951000
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Loqi
tantek: KartikPrabhu left you a message 9 hours, 37 minutes ago: spam! ^
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tantek
oh boy
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Loqi
[[Special:Log/block]] block * Tantek * blocked [[User:Sabnajauzzz]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
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gRegorLove
o/ tantek. Sorry there aren't happier tells :)
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tantek
gRegorLove: wow they started putting "." in words to avoid the regexes!!!
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gRegorLove
/get-started was quickly re-spammed after I reverted
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tantek
like t.ech s.upport wtf
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Loqi
[[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Tantek * deleted "[[@Gmail tech Support Number @1-888-950-6111@ Gmail tech support phone number" target="_blank">User talk:@Gmail tech Support Number @1-888-950-6111@ Gmail tech support phone number]]": Spam
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Loqi
[[Special:Log/block]] block * Tantek * blocked [[User:Steffanjackson]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
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tantek
gRegorLove: did you implement https://github.com/microformats/microformats2-parsing/issues/4 ? could you comment there?
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Loqi
[tantek] #4 vcp: imply dates should also imply tz if needed
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gRegorLove
Re: https://chat.indieweb.org/microformats/2017-05-30#t1496153320060000 yeah, it does seem like the non-VCP dt-* parsing should imply from last seen dt-*
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Loqi
[Zegnat] Oh, hmm, and it only does applied date when vcp is used. So if I do <abbr class="dt-end" title="21:00">9 o’clock</abbr> the mf2 parser must return only "21:00".
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gRegorLove
tantek: I did not; raised the question about it last night; hadn't seen the issue yet.
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gRegorLove
I can implement it pretty easily though.
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gRegorLove
This is the issue I was referring to having fixed locally: https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2/issues/126
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Loqi
[sknebel] #126 Fails to recognize timezone in extra value-class-pattern-element
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tantek
non-VCP dt-* implying could be both useful and dangerous (in terms of changing the content that's out there)
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sknebel
tantek indeed
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sknebel
but 4 parsers do it already
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sknebel
out of 6 I tested
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sknebel
(writing an issue about it right now)
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tantek
oh that's interesting
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tantek
that seems to imply that it's intended in the content then, I doubt that many parsers would do extra work to misinterpret content like that
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tantek
sknebel: are you writing a parser issue to suggest adopting it as a parser change?
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gRegorLove
on indieweb.org/events we pretty commonly use non-VCP dates with the date part implied in the dt-end.
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sknebel
no, in microformats-parsing-issues to ask if it's supposed to be handled as bug in the parsers or maybe changed in mf2
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Zegnat
I would guess it is seen as “intended” because very few end times use vcp, yet dt-end on events is where people expect the implied dates.
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Loqi
[sknebel] #8 imply dates also outside vcp?
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tantek
gRegorLove: html-lang and html-id to avoid confusing them with a possible actual property p-lang or p-id (which we don't have but might / could, especially from a vocabulary agnostic parser perspective)
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tantek
is that worth adding to that brainstorm?
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gRegorLove
tantek: Makes sense. Yeah, I'll add it there. That's released in php-mf2 now, btw, behind a feature flag.
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tantek
ooh nice
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gregorlove
edited /microformats2-parsing-brainstorming (+373) "/* Parse language information */ Q+A about html-lang, noted php-mf2 release with lang support"
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@technololigy
@hikari_no_yume The entire TWEWY wiki has it, I mostly just use microformats these days
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gRegorLove
tantek: Looking at the lang parsing again, the "html-lang" key doesn't show up in properties, only within e-* objects and at the same level as "type" and "properties", so maybe the prefix isn't necessary?
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aaronpk
that's what i was thinking
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gRegorLove
And I think if it was ever expanded to allow parsing on individual properties, like p-name, we'd need to come up with some other solution
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gRegorLove
*lang parsing
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aaronpk
yeah, it's a little unfortunate it doesn't translate nicely for things like p-name
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aaronpk
i think the closest you'd get is changing the value of the name property to an object like how e-content is parsed
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aaronpk
so {"name":{"value":"foo","lang":"en":}}
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gRegorLove
Yeah, so I don't think 'lang' and 'id' are at much risk of collision in the future
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aaronpk
yeah it will never exist alongside vocab properties
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gregorlove
edited /microformats2-parsing-brainstorming (+98) "link to github for current/new issues, wiki for resolved before 2016-06-20 issues"
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@carlmalamud
@cypresslaw @EJWalters Not sure. I think microformats, general consensus a better approach then canonical visual st… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/869671615247679488
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