#microformats 2018-12-26

2018-12-26 UTC
jgmac1106, [relapse], [jgmac1106], ben_thatmustbeme, [tantek], nitot, barpthewire, metbril, [kevinmarks], tglobe, [smerrill], hober, KartikPrabhu, [eddie] and [metbril] joined the channel
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@jgarber ↩️ A possibly helpful data point: One of the real world examples here (http://microformats.org/wiki/h-cite) uses the `<cite>` element to wrap title, author, and other metadata. (twitter.com/_/status/1078050764742901763)
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[tantek] This is a good post to chime in on if you have citations (no pun intended) to provide current evidence: (semantic HTML) https://twitter.com/jensimmons/status/1078047818546364418
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Loqi [@jensimmons] Did we ever “agree” on whether or not we can/should use <cite> to wrap names of authors? Can/should put the attribution inside <blockquote>? And other such logical ideas that contradict the WHATWG spec? I assume no, we got nowhere... but? / paging @brucel @adactio @t
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[tantek] (I should chime-in, but not sure when I'll get around to summarizing my opinions on the matter 😭)
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[jgmac1106] This has a ton of h-cite https://jgregorymcverry.com/resume.html
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[jgmac1106] But I use <small> often when citing people and that is acceptable as well
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[tantek] cringes at <small>
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[tantek] I've really grown to dislike the retro-semanticking of various presentational elements in HTML5
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[jgmac1106] I thougt that was considered acceptable
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[tantek] TBH it makes HTML5 *harder* to teach, and AFAIK benefits *no one* (no consuming code cares about the retro-semanticked definitions in HTML5)
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[tantek] [jgmac1106] it might be considered "acceptable" according to the made-up wording in the spec, but AFAIK it doesn't actually result in any consuming code advantage
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[tantek] just like we have challenged adding new microformats properties, values, and objects with needing consuming use-cases, some sort of intention that someone will write consuming code, we should challenge the same in the retro-semanticked elements in HTML5
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[tantek] see, I told you I had "opinions" (that needed summarizing 😂)
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[tantek] I kinda want to shrink HTML5 to "The Good Parts" except I've grown wary of that implied reference.
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[jgmac1106] <-- Needs to go add a <cite> to all the h-cites he just wrote
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[relapse] More opportunity for regexp!
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[relapse] HTML5 BC (Before Consensus) vs HTML 5 AD (Agreed Direction)
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KartikPrabhu i agree with [tantek] on the retro-sematics being hard to learn
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[jgmac1106] though can I say the <cite> in the offline h-cite seems redundant to me, the p-name inside the h-cite should be enough detail that something is beign cited...may hold off wrapping every p-name in an offline citation as a <cite> and only use it if a u-url is available
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KartikPrabhu i don't think microformats are a replacement for HTML tags
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KartikPrabhu just like h-entyr is not a replacement for <article>
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[jgmac1106] ahhh okay now I see the point
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KartikPrabhu I think of microformats as an "enhancement" over HTML
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KartikPrabhu for instance, if a page does not have an h-entry you could fallback to looking for <article>
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[jgmac1106] @kartikPrabhu do you wrap your academic citations in the <cite" or follow the offline citation rule of just doing title>
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KartikPrabhu https://kartikprabhu.com/cv#list-publications here I use <cite> to wrap the p-name of the article
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[jgmac1106] can I <cite class="h-cite">
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KartikPrabhu so I have <cite class="p-name">Title of paper</cite>
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[jgmac1106] okay that would work
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[jgmac1106] but it seems wrong, the entire citation feels like the citation
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KartikPrabhu [jgmac1106]: according to https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/cite you can put the entire citation in the <cite>
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KartikPrabhu so you wonldn't be wrong
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[jgmac1106] gonna do that
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KartikPrabhu :thumbsup:
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[jgmac1106] thx for thinking it through
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[relapse] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML_element#cite has some good detail on <cite>'s confusion.
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[jgmac1106] What is WHATWG?
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[jgmac1106] I am assuming some working group
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[relapse] https://whatwg.org/
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[jgmac1106] ohhh so the w3c but with money
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[relapse] My understanding is WHATWG splinted out of W3C due to frustration/ inaction etc. https://www.i-programmer.info/news/191-htmlcss/4531-which-html5-whatwg-and-w3c-split.html
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[jgmac1106] and feel free to add folks to my h-card trading deck.....we did fool around with indiemon monster game in NYC
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jgmac1106 if you want a living history of fow <cite><blockquote> and all the mess go through the site-death pages, see all the styles
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jgmac1106 sems to be general practice on the site-death wiki page is to wrap the url in the <cite> and include it in the blockquote
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KartikPrabhu quoting seems to be different from citing though
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[tantek] KartikPrabhu yes and nearly always. However there is much overlap when citing tweets.
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KartikPrabhu [tantek]: of course, if there is a quote and a citation
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KartikPrabhu see example https://kartikprabhu.com/papers top quote ;)
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[tantek] more than that. citations of tweets (according to CMOS and other academic cite styles) include the quoted tweet in the citation
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[tantek] citations of tweets include quotes, not quote *and* citation, but quote *in* citation.
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KartikPrabhu oh you are saying <cite><blockquote>... </cite>
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KartikPrabhu ?
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KartikPrabhu aah I see
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[tantek] no I mean presentationally
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KartikPrabhu that also seems fine to me
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[tantek] blockquote can't be in cite. block vs inline "element"
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KartikPrabhu aah of course
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KartikPrabhu but h-cite on the blockquote handles that nicely
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KartikPrabhu so yeah, presentationally I see no issue
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[tantek] much research documented here: http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-formats#styles
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[tantek] search for "Twitter" there
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KartikPrabhu yeah I did look at that once
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[tantek] applies to short notes / status updates in general
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