#social 2015-03-23

2015-03-23 UTC
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ben_thatmustbeme !tell tantek, aaronpk dates corrected. Requires revote. http://doodle.com/8fa27m9ryx6d26rb#table
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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elf-pavlik Tsyesika, cwebber2 could you please update/add your availability for F2F in Europe? http://doodle.com/8fa27m9ryx6d26rb#table
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elf-pavlik bblfish, also your answer for May vanished after updating dates
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Tsyesika sure
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Tsyesika done, i'll ask chris to do it
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elf-pavlik Tsyesika++ thx!
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Loqi Tsyesika has 4 karma
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elf-pavlik jaywink, hey o/ could you participate in one of those proposed dates for European face 2 face? http://doodle.com/8fa27m9ryx6d26rb#table
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cwebber2 elf-pavlik: I can't make it, but no worries
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cwebber2 I'm just not travelling for the rest of the year
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cwebber2 gonna stay home and get things done instead :)
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elf-pavlik cwebber2++
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Loqi cwebber2 has 21 karma
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elf-pavlik makes sense, thanks for responging to the pool!
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cwebber2 :)
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cwebber2 I will participate remotely tho!
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jaywink elf-pavlik sorry I don't think I'll have the possibility :(
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elf-pavlik jaywink, ok - can you still respond to that pool?
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jaywink sure :)
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elf-pavlik cwebber2, have you looked at this MediaObject topic?
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elf-pavlik action-42
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trackbot is looking up action-42.
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trackbot action-42 -- Pavlik elf to MediaObject - gather options for its social syntax on a wiki page -- due 2015-03-10 -- OPEN
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trackbot http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/42
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cwebber2 elf-pavlik: have not, looking
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cwebber2 Tsyesika: ^^^
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elf-pavlik cwebber2, Tsyesika I just added section to wiki with example from Flickr https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/MediaObject#Real_world_example
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Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/MediaObject]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83056&oldid=82975
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cwebber2 elf-pavlik: hm, is the meta tag missing a closing tag in the rdfa example?
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cwebber2 of https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/MediaObject
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elf-pavlik oh, looks missing :S
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elf-pavlik needs to make small PR to https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg
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elf-pavlik can you add to the wiki how does it currently work in MediaGoblin?
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elf-pavlik pleaceholder :) https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/MediaObject#MediaGoblin
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elf-pavlik I understand that I would *Like* http://mediagoblin.com/u/cwebber/m/gavroche-statue-army/
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elf-pavlik not http://mediagoblin.com/mgoblin_media/media_entries/816/IMG_1021_modified.medium.jpg
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cwebber2 elf-pavlik: oh cool, ok
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cwebber2 Tsyesika and I can discuss that later today
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Loqi Pelf made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/MediaObject]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83058&oldid=83056
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Loqi Pelf made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/MediaObject]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83061&oldid=83058
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Loqi Pelf made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/MediaObject]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83064&oldid=83061
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elf-pavlik aaronpk, does micropub use multipart/form-data for uploading images/audio/video etc. ?
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Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/MediaObject]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83065&oldid=83064
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ben_thatmustbeme elf-pavlik: it does
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elf-pavlik searching 'multipart' on http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub gives no results
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elf-pavlik it only mentions application/x-www-form-urlencoded
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elf-pavlik afk
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ben_thatmustbeme good point, that is not documented at all
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ben_thatmustbeme will make not of that later
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elf-pavlik ben_thatmustbeme++ thx!
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme has 58 karma
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Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83070&oldid=82912
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tantek good afternoon #social
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Loqi tantek: elf-pavlik left you a message 1 day, 10 hours ago: I try to extract vocabulary requirements from API User Stories, I started including terms from microformats *vocabulary* among proposed ones but many of them doesn't seem to have and URL which I can use as permalink e.g u-photo :( https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialig/Vocabulary_TF/Mapping_API_User_Stories_to_Vocabulary_terms http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-03-22/line/1427025095918
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tantek !tell elf-pavlik why do vocabulary terms need URLs? HTML tags in general (e.g. <a> <b> <code> etc.) don't have URLs and they seem to work just fine. What is the non-plumbing use-case for requesting URLs for vocabulary terms?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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AnnB tantek, what I thought elf is asking is .. the definition of microformats "h-feed" is at this URL: http://microformats.org/wiki/h-feed
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AnnB but there does not seem to be a comparable page for u-photo (for example)
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AnnB oh dang, tantek left
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AnnB are there other microformats geeks here, who might know about that?
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bengo wouldn't the `src` attribute of something with u-photo be a valid URL?
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AnnB I thought elf was seeking a page that defines u-photo, to which we could refer
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AnnB like the link above, where h-feed is defined
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bengo http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2
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bengo I cmd+f for 'u-photo'
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bengo There is ostensibly not a standalone page
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AnnB right .. I tried that too
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AnnB it appeared to me that tantek misunderstood elf's question
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AnnB !tell tantek, I think you misunderstood elf's question ... see the log from 3/23 starting at 15:14
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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AnnB hehe, makes me smile every time that loqi says that
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tantek thanks AnnB - it makes sense to have specs for specific objects / vocabularies, yet he referred to u-photo which is a property rather than an object which is why I didn't understand the need he is asking for.
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AnnB aha, I see
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AnnB looking at his mappings of vocabularies from various sources (https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialig/Vocabulary_TF/Mapping_API_User_Stories_to_Vocabulary_terms )...
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AnnB .. I liked how he took one term, and showed what the comparable terms are in various vocabularies, with links to the individual examples
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AnnB so that's what I thought he was trying to do
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Loqi Tsyesika made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/MediaObject]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83071&oldid=83065
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tantek AnnB - it's strange that there are so many options / opinions for these vocabularies, and yet, we have one HTML that's pretty stable for some time
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tantek makes me think there are mistakes happening with too many different efforts at vocabularies, and especially suspicious by the corporate controlled ones (schema, OGP, Twitter cards)
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AnnB isn't this effort to try and correlate between the various ones?
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AnnB do we want, as part of this work, to say what the pertinent vocabs will be for "social"?
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AnnB OR is it ok to say this = that = the other thing
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tantek perhaps that's useful to see where there are extra things
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AnnB (this is why I wanted a little tutorial)
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tantek and figure out what's a common core
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AnnB yes
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tantek because frankly, I think we should start as small as possible, with only a common core
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AnnB you're saying we want to do that .. right?
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AnnB always easier to start small
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tantek and postpone any extras until there is clear market need / demand
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AnnB I guess the challenge is that there already are a variety of vocabs out there
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AnnB so it's already not small
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tantek no the larger challenge is that larger vocab advocates tend to be resistant to starting small
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tantek and yes it is easier to start small
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tantek also important to distinguish: market=implementation need, as opposed to purely mailing list demand
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AnnB what's an example of a "larger vocab advocate"?
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tantek (one of the problems with so much time spent on mailing lists - it skews the discussion in exactly the wrong direction)
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tantek AnnB - schema is a good example of an excessively larger vocab advocate
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AnnB ok
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tantek so much nonsense there, like Volcanos that have fax machines
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tantek (seriously I am not making that up)
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AnnB hmm
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tantek it's classic "software architect" driven overthinking / overengineering
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AnnB here's my lay person perception ... that Google started schema to help them improve their search results .. true?
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AnnB which would therefore open them to myriad kinds of terms, 'cuz the world is so big and wacky
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AnnB imagine all the stuff people search about ... OMG
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AnnB therefore the schema vocab would be big and wacky .. cuz it's a reflection of the world
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AnnB but maybe that's not an accurate understanding
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tantek it's not unfortunately
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tantek the world is big and wacky yes
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AnnB no surprise .. I know almost nothing about schema
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tantek schema's complexity has nothing to do with that, because there are no volcanos with fax machines, yet schema.org/volcano has a fax machine
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AnnB was schema started to help improve search?
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AnnB at google
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tantek unclear what the real motives behind schema were
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AnnB (I guess other search engines are now in there too .. )
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tantek AnnB, there is a history of Google making up vocabularies, then abandoning them
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AnnB hmm
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tantek perhaps you've forgotten such gems such as
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AnnB well, despite the fact that I work for a massive company .. I'm no supporter of corporate behavior
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tantek … 2005-2011: Google Base schema
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AnnB maybe there's a better vocab example to think about?
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tantek … 2007-2011(?): Google Data API/Elements
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AnnB we might go off the deep end here with schema
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tantek AnnB, indeed. schema has already gone off the deepend
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AnnB and the longer I chat, the worse traffic jam I'll be in
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AnnB hehe
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tantek thus any advocacy of it risks the same
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AnnB ok, let's not follow them into the abyss
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tantek right
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tantek AnnB - do you remember data-vocabulary.org?
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AnnB the IG has an assignment to help wtih vocabs .. and I just don't feel like I have adequate undersatnding to help on that
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AnnB no
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tantek how quickly web history is forgotten
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AnnB funny you say that ... the archive of the beginning of the Boeing web is sitting in a box under my desk
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tantek it was Google's previous vocab effort before schema
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AnnB I just happened to have found the very first Boeing home page (May 95)
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tantek AnnB, this is the point, Google has cycled through many vocabularies designed by their "experts"
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AnnB unfortunately only a printed image though
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tantek Google Base, Google Data, data-vocabulary, and now schema
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AnnB ok, I see
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AnnB c'est la corporate vie, eh?
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tantek precisely
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AnnB what do you think about elf's effort to map User Story terms to various vocabs
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AnnB ?
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tantek I think it's better to *implement* various user stories and then by way of implementation discover what vocabularies were necessary
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AnnB hmm .. ok
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tantek Elf's effort is well-intentioned but not a great way to reason about the problem
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AnnB does one need vocabs to implement anything?
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tantek minimally for cross-site interop
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tantek just as HTML is used for a web author via a web server to communicate meaning with a web browser for a web user
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AnnB IF we agree we need a common core of vocab
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AnnB THEN how to get to the common core?
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tantek AnnB - other way around
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tantek whatever we don't agree on, leave it out of the core
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tantek that's how you get to minimal
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AnnB hmmm
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tantek by biasing the question to make things smaller
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tantek not larger
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AnnB so -- implement this and that capability
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AnnB then see which terms have been used? that set is the common core?
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tantek exactly, whoever can do it with fewer vocabulary terms, proves that other terms are unnecessary
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tantek laziness here is a virtue
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tantek implement only what is needed, and nothing more
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AnnB you tickle me .. do you only have like 2 chairs in your house?
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AnnB I'll bet it's very orderly
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tantek it's reasonably orderly
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AnnB hehe
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AnnB anyway .. I have to go .. I appreciate the explanations
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tantek no problem. have a good evening!
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AnnB I'm still seeking guidance on what the IG needs to do on this (If anything)
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AnnB and I still don't really get how these terms are used by developers
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tantek AnnB do you get how HTML tags are used?
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AnnB yes
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tantek understanding that is a good start
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AnnB <phew>
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AnnB some solid ground, some where!
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tantek AnnB btw data-vocabulary.org was introduced by Google in 2009
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tantek http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2009/05/introducing-rich-snippets.html
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tantek and then obsoleted in 2011
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tantek there's the history for you, with a citation
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AnnB dangerously near the edge of abyss ...