#social 2015-05-04

2015-05-04 UTC
bblfish, LCyrin, stevenroose and melvster joined the channel
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melvster
we're starting at 9am, right?
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rhiaro
melvster: that's what I heard :)
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melvster
great, thanks!
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melvster
is INRIA it open now?
bblfish and tantek joined the channel
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tantek
good morning #social! I'll be lurking here (and likely not very responsive) as I'm in the @W3CAB f2f across town.
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Loqi
tantek: elf-pavlik left you a message on 5/1 at 9:28am: I hope you and Evan can try to work together on getting your systems to interoperate :) https://github.com/w3c-social/social-web/issues/1 http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-05-01/line/1430497736034
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Loqi
tantek: elf-pavlik left you a message 2 days, 10 hours ago: last telecon you pretty much made an argument that Webfinger JRD stays compatibile with HTML while Microformats JSON "rels" NOT! http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-04-28/line/1430244146625 http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-05-01/line/1430514179959
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tantek
so many messages elf-pavlik! ;)
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tantek
!tell elf-pavlik I need to document better what interop I implemented with Evan's previous system/site, and challenges for newer systems / proposals.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek
!tell elf-pavlik I have found WebFinger JRD as largely an unnecessary DRY violating side-file - have not looked at it closely recently. If you find issues with microformats2 parsing of rels (e.g. JSON output), please raise them in Freenode # microformats. Thanks!
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk
good morning
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aaronpk
we are just getting connected to wifi and such
jasnell joined the channel
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aaronpk
hm the inria network seems to be blocking IRC
elf-pavlik joined the channel
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jasnell
are we using the typical conf call #?
rhiaro_ joined the channel
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tantek
aaronpk - I think you can file a request with #sysreq
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tantek
but of course that would require access to IRC ;)
Jessica_Lily and RRSAgent joined the channel
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Jessica_Lily
is Tsyesika, using webirc as I can't ssh into the Tsyesika weechat
Zakim joined the channel
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jasnell
attempting to dial in to the usual conf call number
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jasnell
conference code is not working
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sandro
hold on
Arnaud joined the channel
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sandro
zakim, room for 10 for 10 hours?
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Zakim
I don't understand your question, sandro.
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sandro
zakim, room for 10 for 600 minutes?
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Zakim
ok, sandro; conference Team_(social)07:47Z scheduled with code 7625 (SOCL) for 600 minutes until 1747Z
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Zakim
Team_(social)07:47Z has now started
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Arnaud
trackbot, start meeting
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trackbot
is preparing a teleconference.
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trackbot
RRSAgent, make logs public
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RRSAgent
I have made the request, trackbot
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Zakim
+jasnell
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trackbot
Zakim, this will be SOCL
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Zakim
ok, trackbot; I see Team_(social)07:47Z scheduled to start now
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trackbot
Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot
Date: 04 May 2015
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sandro
zakim, call INRIA-bridge
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Zakim
ok, sandro; the call is being made
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sandro
James, tell INRIA bridge the conference code: 23695487
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sandro
hoping this works.
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sandro
jasnell, does that make sense? We can hang up and call it again
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sandro
jasnell, using "Zakim, drop INRIA-bridge" or "zakim, call INRIA-bridge"
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jasnell
sorry, was off getting coffee
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sandro
zakim, drop INRIA-bridge
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Zakim
sorry, sandro, I don't know what conference this is
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Zakim
Team_(social)07:47Z has now started
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Zakim
+jasnell
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wseltzer
zakim, this is SOCL
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Zakim
wseltzer, this was already Team_(social)07:47Z
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Zakim
ok, wseltzer; that matches Team_(social)07:47Z
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Arnaud
we're getting zakim to call the local bridge but zaim won't enter the passcode
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Arnaud
s/zaim/zakim/
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jasnell
sandro: sorry, no, not sure what you're asking me to do
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Arnaud
if you hear the local bridge asking for the code, try to enter it yourself
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jasnell
not hearing anything
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Arnaud
the conference code: 23695487
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Arnaud
zakim, call INRIA-bridge
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Zakim
ok, Arnaud; the call is being made
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Zakim
+INRIA
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Arnaud
did you hear anything?
AnnB joined the channel
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jasnell
yes, trying
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wseltzer
zakim, who is here?
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Zakim
On the phone I see jasnell, INRIA
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Zakim
On IRC I see AnnB, Arnaud, Zakim, RRSAgent, Jessica_Lily, rhiaro_, elf-pavlik, jasnell, tantek, bblfish, LCyrin, shepazu, Loqi, wilkie, melvster1, oshepherd, rhiaro, aaronpk,
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Zakim
... kylewm, Tsyesika, cwebber2`, mattl, ElijahLynn, JakeHart, bret, bigbluehat, ben_thatmustbeme, dwhly, trackbot, sandro, wseltzer
deiu joined the channel
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jasnell
need more coffee
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jasnell
it will be difficult for me to hear and understand everyone. I will be relying quite a bit on whoever is taking minutes
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Jessica_Lily
I'm Jessica Tallon (Tsyesika) from GNU Mediagoblin
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sandro
Sandro Hawke, MIT & W3C
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AnnB
Ann Bassetti, Boeing
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rhiaro_
Amy Guy, University of Edinburgh
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elf-pavlik
elf Pavlik - independed / polyaffiliated
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AnnB
scribenick: AnnB
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wseltzer
Wendy_Seltzer, W3C
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aaronpk
Aaron Parecki - indiewebcamp
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AnnB
Arnaud: will work on: Activity Streams, make progress on protocol, ...
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jasnell
*trying*
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elf-pavlik
jasnell++ for staying up at night to join us :)
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AnnB
... change from original agenda, to have James Snell (@jasnell) on first, to accommodate Pacific time zone (middle of night)
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jasnell
is drink lots of coffee
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Loqi
jasnell has 13 karma
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AnnB
jasnell++
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Loqi
jasnell has 14 karma
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AnnB
I would appreciate if the rest of you could put your name and association into IRC
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AnnB
so we have the proper list of attendees
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AnnB
James Snell:
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AnnB
... number of issues in Tracker
melvster1_ joined the channel
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AnnB
... re: Activity Streams...
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wseltzer
Present+ Elf_Pavlik, AnnB, Olivier_Berger, Arnaud_LeHors, Wendy_Seltzer, Melvin_Carvalho, Andrei_Sambra
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AnnB
... have 1st iteration of test harness .. loaded on Saturday
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Loqi
I added a countdown for 5/9 12:00am (#5679)
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melvster1_
name : Melvin Carvalho (inependent)
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AnnB
... node-based application
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AnnB
... need to start iterating on it
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AnnB
... please help
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wseltzer
Present+ Jessica_Tallon, Amy_Guy, Aaron_Parecki, Sandro_Hawke
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AnnB
... this is the test harness jasnell's colleague JT demo'd
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AnnB
... jasnell is busy for next couple weeks, but then will work on it
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AnnB
... good beginning for test harness
parklize and paul joined the channel
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AnnB
Arnaud: (clarifying).. we pushed JT to put this harness out there, even though the code wasn't done
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AnnB
... it's not his job, we "volunteered" him
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AnnB
... but we wanted to get it out there, so people can start helping
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AnnB
... creating tests
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elf-pavlik
q+ re: how people implementing libs and tools can use it for automated testing?
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Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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AnnB
... would be really helpful if WG members would let us know who can work on this
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wseltzer
Present+ Paul_Tran-Van
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AnnB
Sandro: could someone give an overview of how this harness works?
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AnnB
Arnaud / jasnell: JT is in process of documenting
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AnnB
jasnell: give an AS instance
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AnnB
... it will check if it's valid JSON
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Arnaud
s/JT/JP/
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Arnaud
JP=Jacques Perrault
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AnnB
<then other things happen that I missed ... maybe @jasnell can type later>
deiu joined the channel
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AnnB
s/JT/JP/
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AnnB
Sandro: it runs as a web service?
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AnnB
jasnell: yes .. runs as a node web app
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Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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AnnB
... goal is to be able to install locally, but not quite ready on that
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AnnB
sandro: why?
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AnnB
jasnell: to be able to test your own docs, if you don't want to share publicly
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jasnell
Ann, I will be documenting the fundamental test process
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Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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AnnB
arnaud: right now it's rudimentary, but it's only beginning
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jasnell
I'll try to get that written up later in the afternoon today... after I get sleep
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AnnB
thanks jasnell
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sandro
q+ to say So it's a Feed Validator, at the moment, not a Test Harness
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Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, sandro on the speaker queue
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AnnB
sleep is good
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AnnB
arnaud: goal is totdemonstrate we have interoperability in the spec
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elf-pavlik
Arnaud: as WG we need to deliver implementations report
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AnnB
s/totdemonstrate /to demonstrate /
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Arnaud
ack elf-pavlik
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Zakim
elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss how people implementing libs and tools can use it for automated testing?
obergix joined the channel
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Zakim
sees sandro on the speaker queue
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AnnB
elf: I see there are 2 implementations started
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AnnB
... are there plans to automate?
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AnnB
... for people who built libraries
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AnnB
... another guy I will meet with in Dusseldorf has some stuff
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AnnB
... how can he work on this
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elf-pavlik
Nick (working on sockethub) writes different JS AS2.0 library
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AnnB
jasnell: that's the goal, but I'm not clear exactly on how it will work
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Arnaud
ack sandro
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Zakim
sandro, you wanted to say So it's a Feed Validator, at the moment, not a Test Harness
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AnnB
... ideally we'll be able to drop into some environment, and it'll just run... but none of that is worked out yet
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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AnnB
sandro: what threw me off is the name "test harness"
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AnnB
... what you really mean is "feed validator", right?
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AnnB
jasnell: yes, right now only validator ..
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AnnB
... longer goal is more
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AnnB
arnaud: what is expected?
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AnnB
sandro: nice to have test feeds and something to do with them
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AnnB
arnaud: that's part of the challenge, there's only so much you can do in this case
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AnnB
sandro: I guess you could have some valid and invalid AS
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elf-pavlik
q+ re: testing expected *side effects* after adding an Activity to dataset
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Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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AnnB
jasnell: yes ... will come more into play when we have an API
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AnnB
sandro: there
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AnnB
s/sandro: there //
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jasnell
there needs to be a complete corpus of test documents, both valid and invalid
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Arnaud
ack elf-pavlik
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Zakim
elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss testing expected *side effects* after adding an Activity to dataset
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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sandro
sandro: So (1) Feed Validator, (2) Syntactic Test Suite -- wiith hundreds of Good and Bad documents, for people to make sure their parsers are good
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AnnB
elf: we were talking about testing side effects
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AnnB
... how do side effects happen ..
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jasnell
I am sorry but it's very difficult for me to understand what elf is saying
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AnnB
... before and after activity happens
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sandro
elf-pavlik: For the client API, we can test the side effects, eg what a subscription changed
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AnnB
arnaud: we can only validate the stream
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Zakim
sees jasnell on the speaker queue
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AnnB
sandro: once we know what API we're doing, we can figure out better how to test i
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AnnB
s/test i/test it/
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AnnB
elf: can test what it looks like before activity and after activity
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AnnB
jasnell: we can test "stories", based on our user stories, for certain scenarios
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AnnB
... what is expected output
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AnnB
... with some syntax variances
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AnnB
... for now we can only go so far
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Zakim
sees jasnell on the speaker queue
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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Arnaud
ack jsnell
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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AnnB
elf: I'll try to make a pull request on what I was suggesting
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AnnB
... trying to illustrate; we can see if it works or not
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elf-pavlik
i'll make pull request with test for how Follow activity affects the dataset
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AnnB
arnaud: anything else on test suite?
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AnnB
<silence>
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AnnB
jasnell: moving on with open issues
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AnnB
... there are 13 open issues
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AnnB
... Tracker issues (not github)
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AnnB
... 2 new ones
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wseltzer
ISSUE-20?
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trackbot
is looking up ISSUE-20.
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AnnB
... 1 by Eric Wilde
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trackbot
ISSUE-20 -- Represent Collections using JSON Text Sequences (RFC 7464) -- raised
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AnnB
... don't want to close it without Eric being able to discuss it
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AnnB
.... would rather wait for concrete proposal
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elf-pavlik
-1 to fiddle with tracker now
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AnnB
... therefore recommend we do not open it
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elf-pavlik
can we discuss
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elf-pavlik
issue-36
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trackbot
is looking up issue-36.
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trackbot
issue-36 -- Role and evolution of recommended JSON-LD contexts -- open
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AnnB
<hope jasnell can type his explanation into IRC later>
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AnnB
... not clear how this would work with JSON-LD, nor what it would "buy" us
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AnnB
... we currently represent as a document with an items array
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elf-pavlik
q+ re: picking only issues most relevant to us dissing them F2F here
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Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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AnnB
elf: for most people here, this is hard to discuss ...
the_frey joined the channel
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AnnB
... might be better use of our time to discuss items we are engaged with
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jasnell
AnnB: let me know if I'm speaking too quickly or not clearly enough.
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AnnB
arnaud: this isn't "random"; jasnell is the editor, and he's just going through the issues
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sandro
q+ is this precluded in any way, via con-neg
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Zakim
sandro, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
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sandro
q+ to ask is this precluded in any way, via con-neg
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Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, sandro on the speaker queue
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AnnB
OK
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Arnaud
ack elf
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Zakim
elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss picking only issues most relevant to us dissing them F2F here
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Zakim
sees sandro on the speaker queue
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AnnB
elf: .... that's just my observation; I might be wrong
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Arnaud
ack sandro
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Zakim
sandro, you wanted to ask is this precluded in any way, via con-neg
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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AnnB
jasnell: yes there's a proposal, but no examples on how it should work
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AnnB
sandro: this sounds like something that could be added later based on context negotiation, yes?
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AnnB
jasnell: yes
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AnnB
... agree
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AnnB
arnaud: the proposal is to close this issue (that is, not open it)
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AnnB
jasnell: if someone can come with a concrete proposal later, they are invited to raise it again
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Arnaud
PROPOSED: close issue-20 until someone comes with a real problem and concrete proposal
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AnnB
abstain
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AnnB
(leavingn it to the geeks)
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wseltzer
+1
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obergix
(just an observer)
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Jessica_Lily
+1
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melvster1_
0
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Arnaud
RESOLVED: close issue-20 until someone comes with a real problem and concrete proposal
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parklize
0
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elf-pavlik
issue-36
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trackbot
is looking up issue-36.
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trackbot
issue-36 -- Role and evolution of recommended JSON-LD contexts -- open
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AnnB
jasnell: can we talk about raised issues first?
paul_ joined the channel
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AnnB
... we don't need to solve this one yet, but I do recommend opening it
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AnnB
sandro: we can't make progress on this until we decide on API
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AnnB
... but probably OK to open it
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AnnB
arnaud: I find this a bit premature
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AnnB
... LDP stuck
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Arnaud
PROPOSED: open ISSUE-37
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AnnB
jasnell: point of reference: I've implemented it both ways
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AnnB
... found that clients implement both ways
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sandro
sandro: This makes sense as an issue with or without LDP. It's the basic question of whether to have paging links in LINK headers or inside the data. Good question.
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AnnB
... I think it'd be good to at least leave open
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AnnB
Harry arrives
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wseltzer
Present+ Harry_Halpin
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Arnaud
RESOLVED: open ISSUE-37
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AnnB
jasnell: OK, now to the open issues
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AnnB
... quite a few of them
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AnnB
elf wants to start with #36
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AnnB
elf: I find it interesting that we try to have JSON and RDF
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AnnB
... how we design and implement will be crucial
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Zakim
sees jasnell on the speaker queue
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AnnB
... will it be frozen or can it still adjust over time?
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AnnB
... lately jasnell was flattening namespaces ... which makes it hard in RDF
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sandro
q+ to ask if extensibility is a requirement for this WG
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Zakim
sees jasnell, sandro on the speaker queue
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AnnB
... how do we handle this
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Arnaud
ack jasnell
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Zakim
sees sandro on the speaker queue
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AnnB
... how do we understand the JSON context?
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tantek
ASIDE: Was there any discussion in the f2f meeting about explicit goals for the meeting? So far there is only "Proposed Goals": https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-05-04#Goals_for_the_meeting
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tantek
Goals currently are "TBD"
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AnnB
jasnell: re: context ... keep in mind: 1) there is a context that is normative; 2) keep it minimal
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tantek
Arnaud: ^^^
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AnnB
... I think we should remove a lot of the non-AS vocabulary other than vcard
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Arnaud
tantek: not much of a discussion I said the goal for today is to close as many issues against AS as possible
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AnnB
<can someone else fill in this bit?>
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elf-pavlik
q+ re: 'denamespacing' vcard e.g meaning of Home after that
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Zakim
sees sandro, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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tantek
Thanks Arnaud - will update accordingly.
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Arnaud
thanks
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sandro
has no idea what "@vocab": "_:" means....
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elf-pavlik
sandro if term 'foo' doesn't have URI will get blank node _:foo
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AnnB
jasnell: challenge is json-ld contexts are not perfect ... no versioning
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sandro
thanks elf-pavlik
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deiu
it might be a bnode serialization issue
stevenroose joined the channel
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AnnB
... keep context as minimal as possible
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elf-pavlik
if it dosn't map in context to URI
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AnnB
arnaud: asks sandro what the policy is in publishing this kind of stuff
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jasnell
json-ld contexts are not versioned, there is no way to track backwards incompatible changes across json-ld context versions
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AnnB
sandro: namespaces won't break interop; but contexts will
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jasnell
if we keep the json-ld context as minimal as possible, implementations can extend as necessary without us having to do much
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AnnB
... in new Process doc, it's more lightweight
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jasnell
the normative context document needs to have JUST the Activity Streams stuff + the denamespaced VCard properties
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jasnell
(in my opinion)
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Zakim
sees sandro, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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AnnB
Harry: in order to make an change like this, we don't have to re-open WG
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jasnell
it would be extremely helpful if JSON-LD had minimal versioning support
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AnnB
... something like "re-open" but not "re-charter"... not sure
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jasnell
{"@context": {"@version": 1.0.0, ... }
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AnnB
... more lightweight
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Zakim
sees sandro on the speaker queue
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elf-pavlik
q+ re: multiple contexts and relations to issue-16
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Zakim
sees sandro, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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AnnB
arnaud: does this mean we have to have it in the spec as well?
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elf-pavlik
issue-16
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trackbot
is looking up issue-16.
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trackbot
issue-16 -- better separate grammar/vocabulary and improved spec structure -- open
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AnnB
... what would it take to close this issue?
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AnnB
sandro: there are a couple aspects to this
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AnnB
... depends on what type of change
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AnnB
... there are forward and backward-compatible changes
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AnnB
... but changing mapping to existing namespace would break existing stuff
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Arnaud
ack sandro
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Zakim
sandro, you wanted to ask if extensibility is a requirement for this WG
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Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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AnnB
jasnell: it's hard to make changes that will break nothin
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tantek
yikes about versioning and extensibility - would strongly prefer forward-compat design practices
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AnnB
s/nothin/nothing/
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AnnB
sandro: how to do extensibility? is that a solid requirement?
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jasnell
tantek: json-ld contexts are not versioned
eprodrom joined the channel
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AnnB
... is it important that someone be able to add an enterprise-specific XYZ?
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eprodrom
Hello all
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AnnB
jasnell: absolutely yes
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AnnB
... have real-world examples
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elf-pavlik
extensibility also relates to issue-16 !!!
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AnnB
... people can extend, so long as it's not part of AS namespace
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AnnB
arnaud: then there's no way for us to guarantee we won't break those extensions
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AnnB
jasnell: diff extensions might conflict .. yes .. that's not the issue .. we're talking about the core
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elf-pavlik
issue-36 says multiple contexts <- pluaral
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AnnB
jasnell: can add stuff via json-ld
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AnnB
sandro: but doesn't that break it for others, who aren't using json?
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Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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AnnB
... what if one company adds an extension
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AnnB
... then others in their sphere also use that
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AnnB
arnaud: only way to get unique names is to use context (?)
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jasnell
if an implementation depends on extensions at all, there is a risk of reduced interop, that's just the nature of decentralized extensibility
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AnnB
harry: in any decentralized system, you can't guarantee that everyone will understand everything
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AnnB
... XML has same issue
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AnnB
elf: it's a challenge, but maybe not a problem
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AnnB
sandro: give warning: if you get stuff you don't understand, then what to do
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AnnB
... in practice json-ld will have lots of extensions
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melvster1_
q+
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Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, melvster1_ on the speaker queue
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Arnaud
ack elf-pavlik
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Zakim
elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss multiple contexts and relations to issue-16
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elf-pavlik
issue-16
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trackbot
is looking up issue-16.
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trackbot
issue-16 -- better separate grammar/vocabulary and improved spec structure -- open
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Zakim
sees melvster1_ on the speaker queue
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AnnB
... harmful to have only json 'reading' of this
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sandro
sandro: Basically we need a huge warning on JSON-ONLY usage of Activity Streams.
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AnnB
elf: need to have diff strategy
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eprodrom
Is there not a video console set up in the room?
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AnnB
eprodrom: no
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eprodrom
I'm not seeing anyone else on https://talky.io/socialweb
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eprodrom
Oh
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AnnB
hold on... maybe we can get it set up
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eprodrom
OK
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sandro
no, we can't. use zakim.
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AnnB
oh, sorry
#
eprodrom
>:(
#
sandro
zakim, who is on the phone
#
Zakim
I don't understand 'who is on the phone', sandro
#
sandro
zakim, who is on the phone?
#
Zakim
On the phone I see jasnell, INRIA
#
wseltzer
eprodrom, no, we don't have enough network connectivity for talky
#
elf-pavlik
talky will not work, we have ports blocked here
#
jasnell
eprodrom: call the regular conf line
#
eprodrom
Gotcha
#
AnnB
problem is that this network blocks it
#
AnnB
dang
#
AnnB
sandro: json extensibility won't work
#
Zakim
sees melvster1_, jasnell on the speaker queue
#
AnnB
... or, it works, but with lots of 'danger'
#
AnnB
... ditto RDF
#
eprodrom
q+
#
Zakim
sees melvster1_, jasnell, eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
AnnB
... we should not change the context content
#
Zakim
+eprodrom
#
AnnB
elf: that's why we should be careful what we put in it
#
Arnaud
ack melvster1_
#
Zakim
sees jasnell, eprodrom on the speaker queue
hhalpin joined the channel
#
AnnB
melvster: this namespace problem not specific to AS
#
hhalpin
waves
#
hhalpin
q?
#
Zakim
sees jasnell, eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
AnnB
... exist in java .. hasn't been that much of a problem
#
hhalpin
q+
#
Zakim
sees jasnell, eprodrom, hhalpin on the speaker queue
#
Arnaud
ack jasnell
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom, hhalpin on the speaker queue
#
AnnB
jasnell: we have already built in the <something> model ... which helps namespace your properties
#
AnnB
... any system that has extensions runs risk of reducing interop
#
AnnB
... best we can say is, "ignore what you don't understand"
#
AnnB
... keep the core stable
#
sandro
Not just STABLE but IMMUTABLE
#
sandro
Right?
#
AnnB
... add stuff that you want, but realize you run the risk of instability
#
Arnaud
ack eprodrom
#
Zakim
sees hhalpin on the speaker queue
#
AnnB
eprodrom: AS is really quite complete
#
AnnB
... most is there
LCyrin joined the channel
#
elf-pavlik
i bet most people don't understand semantics vcard:Homa has!
#
AnnB
... if you want to use a new vocabulary .. that's OK, but just know that you are extending core vocab
#
Arnaud
ack hhalpin
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
AnnB
... most of what we need is there already
#
Tsyesika
is using this nick (previously: Jessica_lily)
#
AnnB
harry: I agree with Evan; plus vcard is very complete
#
AnnB
... in current spec, would it be helpful to put something like "must ignore"?
#
jasnell
"In Activity Streams 2.0, an "extension" is any property not defined by the Activity Vocabulary. Consuming implementations that encounter unfamiliar extensions must not stop processing or signal an error and must continue processing the items as if those properties were not present. Support for specific extensions can vary across implementations and no normative processing model for extensions is provided."
#
AnnB
... what's current status of spec on this?
#
hhalpin
should we say MUST ignore
#
hhalpin
or have some specified error processing (which is what most Web APIs do?)
#
AnnB
arnaud: I think "ignore" is too strong
#
Zakim
sees sandro on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
q+ re: distinction between AS2.0 Vocabulary and normative JSON-LD context
#
Zakim
sees sandro, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
AnnB
... what you don't want application to balk
#
AnnB
jasnell: want to be careful to not drop data on floor by mistake
#
hhalpin
So should we say 'don't throw an error, but keep data'?
#
AnnB
... better to say 'don't drop data if you don't understand it' ...
#
hhalpin
I think that's the real question.
#
Arnaud
ack sandro
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
hhalpin
I'm OK with keeping the text the way its written, but I just am trying to clarify what I think the concern is from Sandro and a way to address.
#
AnnB
sandro: is there any reason we need to have only one context?
#
eprodrom
Yes
#
eprodrom
q+
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
hhalpin
Historically, I'm pretty sure people don't use namespaces
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, eprodrom, jasnell on the speaker queue
#
hhalpin
so I'd prefer to keep a pretty large base context
#
eprodrom
+1
#
AnnB
jasnell: if we think vcard will cause conflicts, then we could remove it
#
AnnB
... some terms in vcard vocab need to be slightly re-worked (?)
#
AnnB
... one wayy to close this issue is to say only AS is normative
#
eprodrom
-1
#
AnnB
jasnell: we could have 1 normative, with others as "extended"
#
Arnaud
ack elf-pavlik
#
Zakim
elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss distinction between AS2.0 Vocabulary and normative JSON-LD context
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom, jasnell on the speaker queue
#
AnnB
sandro: e.g., "AS 1 context", then "AS 2 context" ..
#
AnnB
elf: haven't heard how we handle media types
#
sandro
so lets change the AS namespace to include "2.0"
#
Arnaud
ack eprodrom
#
Zakim
sees jasnell on the speaker queue
#
AnnB
... json context is diffferent from vocabulary
#
AnnB
eprodrom: disagree with having various contexts
#
AnnB
... we should provide 1) core; 2) vocab
#
AnnB
... if others want to add extensions... they can do that, but should not count on interop
#
Zakim
sees jasnell on the speaker queue
#
AnnB
... esp want to ensure our social API has a complete package .. then others can use extensions to add new functionalityy
#
Arnaud
ack jasnell
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
AnnB
arnaud: seeking proposals to close this issue
#
AnnB
jasnell: question to eprodrom ... should we keep vcard or not
#
AnnB
?
#
elf-pavlik
my proposal: create Task Force to resolve issue-16 and issue-36
kaepora joined the channel
#
AnnB
eprodrom: we should have AS vocab, but make sure it's complete .. if we need to add vcard, I'm open; but let's not have multiple implementations
#
jasnell
PROPOSAL: Remove all non AS2 namespaces from the normative context, keep the normative context limited to only AS2 vocabulary terms
#
kaepora
Hello, I'm Nadim Kobeissi, PhD student here at INRIA :-)
#
AnnB
thanks Nadim
#
kaepora
:3
#
elf-pavlik
Manu Sporny uses v1 / v2 in context URIs
#
Arnaud
PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-36, Remove all non AS2 namespaces from the normative context, keep the normative context limited to only AS2 vocabulary terms
#
eprodrom
+1
#
elf-pavlik
-1 I see need for Task Force to resolve issue-36 and issue-16 together
#
parklize
+1
#
AnnB
arnaud asks elf to explain why he voted -1
#
AnnB
elf: altho we have good intentions to move on.. I anticipate problems in future from this
#
AnnB
... would rather have small team explore this more deeply
#
AnnB
arnaud: I appreciate that ... I prefer to close it now .. and then, later, if we find we made a mistaake, then we can re-open it
#
jasnell
I'm -1 on keeping issues open simply because we *might* have issues at some indeterminate point in the future
#
AnnB
... would that be OK?
#
elf-pavlik
-0.5 i don't want to block it
#
Arnaud
RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-36, Remove all non AS2 namespaces from the normative context, keep the normative context limited to only AS2 vocabulary terms
#
cwebber2`
morning
#
obergix
obergix is Olivier Berger from Institut Mines Telecom / Telecom SudParis, and just an observer
#
Tsyesika
morning cwebber2!
#
jasnell
Well, I can help us out a little bit by closing issues 28 and 32... those were previously resolved
#
Tsyesika
cwebber2: we're working on AS 2.0 today and the specs tomorrow
#
obergix
sandro, did you mention a proposal bout numbering a URI
#
obergix
?
#
kaepora
I work here, if you guys need a place for lunch I can help you find a place
akuckartz joined the channel
#
wseltzer
thanks kaepora
#
AnnB
<taking short break>
#
eprodrom
cwebber2: hey
#
kaepora
wseltzer: It would be helpful to know of the group's dietary restrictions
#
Tsyesika
cwebber2: we're taking 10 minutes
#
sandro
ISSUE: Do we need to add a version number to the AS Context URI, to avoid breaking software when new terms are added?
#
trackbot
is creating a new ISSUE.
#
trackbot
Created ISSUE-38 - Do we need to add a version number to the as context uri, to avoid breaking software when new terms are added?. Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/38/edit>.
#
cwebber2
hi eprodrom
#
cwebber2
Tsyesika: aha cool
#
cwebber2
Tsyesika: I didn't see anything on talky
#
aaronpk
we have a ridiculously restricted network here, so no talky
#
jasnell
cwebber2: talky doesn't work, we're on the regular zakim conference line
#
Tsyesika
cwebber2: we're resuming
#
AnnB
waves at cwebber2
#
obergix
hi cwebber2 !
#
AnnB
jasnell: issue 13
#
wseltzer
issue-13?
#
trackbot
is looking up issue-13.
#
trackbot
issue-13 -- Which activity types are built into AS2, and how are they defined/structured? -- open
#
elf-pavlik
wishes that we had high priority issues listed prior event on agenda page and could prepare for discussing them
#
obergix
made a reservation at Les Terasses d'Italie just next door for lunch http://viaitaliaparis.fr/en at 12:10 Paris time
#
sandro
+1 elf-pavlik: prioritized issues!
#
cwebber2
hey all, ok
#
cwebber2
I was reading backscroll :)
rhiaro_ joined the channel
#
AnnB
... ones in there now .. were in original AS schema .. and then augmented
#
AnnB
... need to reconcile against user stories, to make sure we have correct set of activities
#
AnnB
... how do we refine that list, to make sure we have correct set?
#
AnnB
... I think that's what Erik was getting at
#
AnnB
arnaud: I agree; this is an open-ended question
#
AnnB
... might be better to have several specific issues about specific activities
#
AnnB
... therefore I suggest we close it
#
eprodrom
+1
#
AnnB
jasnell: agree
#
AnnB
+1
#
elf-pavlik
-0.5 having doubts that we all understand this issue the same way
#
Arnaud
PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-13, as is. If there is a problem with specific types missing or that shouldn't be there this should be handled with specific issues
#
elf-pavlik
-0 having doubts that we all understand this issue the same way
#
Arnaud
RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-13, as is. If there is a problem with specific types missing or that shouldn't be there this should be handled with specific issues
#
AnnB
arnaud: when we create issues, make them very specific
#
Zakim
+??P2
#
AnnB
... makes it easier to deal witth them
#
cwebber2
that's me
#
deiu
Zakim, ??P2 is cwebber2
#
Zakim
+cwebber2; got it
#
AnnB
... if you can take a guess at the solution, all the better
#
AnnB
jasnell: issue 15
#
elf-pavlik
I also didn't look at issue-13 for long time so have hard time to get it from hard disk to my RAM ...
#
trackbot
is looking up issue-15.
#
deiu
issue-15?
#
trackbot
issue-15 -- AS2.0 Vocabulary in many ways duplicates microformats.org and schema.org efforts -- open
#
AnnB
elf: explains why he thought this was a problem
#
AnnB
... worried that it will be hard to change the vocabulary later
#
kaepora
Where can I see the current draft for the vocab/context? :-)
#
Zakim
sees jasnell on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom
kaepora: ^^^^^
#
kaepora
eprodrom: Thanks
#
jasnell
that's not the current editor's draft
#
eprodrom
jasnell: oh, sorry
#
eprodrom
jasnell: thanks
#
sandro
hears the opposite of what eprodrom recently said about as2.
#
AnnB
... need easy way to add terms
#
Arnaud
ack jasnell
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
deiu
@eprodrom, I've replied to your SoLiD comments on GH
#
AnnB
jasnell: nothing arbitrary about current set
#
eprodrom
deiu: thanks, we can go over them during the discussion tomorrow
#
AnnB
... selected from existing social platforms
#
AnnB
... documented in wiki
#
AnnB
... we do need to refinen these to make sure they fit our user stories
#
deiu
great! Thanks for looking into it, btw.
#
sandro
s/deiu:/deiu,/
#
AnnB
... can use existing extensibility models
#
AnnB
... we need to define minimum set
#
AnnB
... not interested to define all of schema.org cases ..
#
AnnB
... but yes there will be some overlap
#
AnnB
... not a prob
#
AnnB
... need to define minmal set for AS2
#
jasnell
my proposal would be to close issue 15
#
AnnB
AnnB: what's your reaction, elf?
#
AnnB
elf: current model says there's a way to extend ..
#
AnnB
... but we don't have a way for others to use the extensions
#
jasnell
that's the nature of extensions. if implementations depend on extensions, then there's a risk of decreased interop
#
AnnB
.... how would someone else know abouit new terms?
#
jasnell
implementations need to agree on what extensions to use
#
AnnB
... technical way to share new terms, but not
#
AnnB
...
#
AnnB
... 'social way' to share
#
AnnB
... I suggest the IG could work on this problem
#
jasnell
if the interest group wants to work on a generalized way of handling extensions in a reliable way, then fine, but this is not an issue for the AS2.0 spec itself
#
AnnB
arnaud: but, about the spec .. you raised this issue re: the spec
#
jasnell
overlap is fine
#
jasnell
it doesn't matter if there's overlap in the vocabularies
#
AnnB
... when I read this issue, it's kind of broad ... there are always these problems with vocabularies
#
AnnB
... how is this different?
#
eprodrom
q+
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
Arnaud
ack eprodrom
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
AnnB
elf: be prepared to use existing terms, not duplicate them
#
jasnell
the best we can do is focus on our own use cases, we cannot anticipate what others might do in the future
#
eprodrom
q-
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom
Sorry, phone problem
#
eprodrom
I'll type quickly
#
AnnB
dang phones!
#
eprodrom
I think we need to provide enough vocabulary
#
eprodrom
That developers can build social applications with AS 2.0
#
elf-pavlik
q+ re: h-card, h-event h-*
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom
Especially ones that meet our user stories
#
kaepora
The structure of AS2 lends itself well to the inclusion of integrity and authenticity protection features. I would love to discuss these possibilities! (I work on crypto stuff)
#
eprodrom
A smorgasbord approach will not serve developers or users
#
cwebber2
I would prefer a universe where we could all just use schema.org as a base vocabulary but governance is the main concern
#
AnnB
arnaud: we agree we nened to keep spec as minimal as possible, but large enough to support the use stories we've identified
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
AnnB
s/nened/need/
#
AnnB
elf: e.g., I understand there is some conflict between IndieWeb using their terms, others using AS terms, other using other...
#
AnnB
aaronpk: I personally only rarely add new vocab terms
#
AnnB
... I try to avoid adding new ones until I'm sure I need them
#
jasnell
I'm not concerned in the least about overlap.
#
AnnB
elf: if there's overlap between terms in diff vocabs .. what do you do
#
AnnB
aaronpk: not sure
#
eprodrom
Can we come up with a proposal here?
#
AnnB
elf: we have 1) schema.org; 2) AS; 3) IndieWeb / microformats ... but not coordinated
#
AnnB
arnaud: I think elf asks we establish a general policy how to handle this
#
Zakim
sees jasnell on the speaker queue
#
Arnaud
ack jasnell
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
i don't mind focusing on microformats.org rather than schema.org
#
AnnB
jasnell: I believe we've previously decided that we will not use schema.org as a normative requirement
#
AnnB
.... no spec that maps microformats to json-ld
#
AnnB
... nor mapping of microfomats to activity models
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
could we get the microformats community to bless a RDF model? :)
#
sandro
q+ to ask if anyone cares about interop between iwc and as ?
#
Zakim
sees sandro on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
tantek ^
#
AnnB
... without anything that describes how to reliably use microformats with json-ld, I don't see how we can use it
#
AnnB
scribe is not sure jasnell said "use it"
#
Zakim
sees sandro on the speaker queue
#
Arnaud
ack sandro
#
Zakim
sandro, you wanted to ask if anyone cares about interop between iwc and as ?
#
AnnB
... this seems like a vague "what if" issue, rather than concrete
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
AnnB
sandro: I hear, aaronpk, that you / IndieWeb folks aren't focused on interoperability
#
AnnB
aaronpk: I wouldn't say that
#
AnnB
rhiaro: I've been looking at how to model my stuff ...
#
AnnB
... we've agreed to drop verbs
#
elf-pavlik
rhiaro++
#
Loqi
rhiaro has 68 karma
#
jasnell
Webactions != Activities, Webactions == potential actions
#
elf-pavlik
but they use the same *verbs* ?
#
elf-pavlik
or Activity/Action types?
#
elf-pavlik
Like / like
#
elf-pavlik
Share / Repost share / repost
#
AnnB
... I'm using "Posts" ... similar to verbs or activities
#
cwebber2
I think a translator would be great!
#
AnnB
... I think we're talking about similar concepts, but using different terms
#
cwebber2
my main concern, and I don't mean to sound snarky: if we get an RDF model of microformats stuff, can we get the microformats community to play along, or will there be a wiki page saying "here's how to use microformats with RDF, but here's links to why RDF is terrible" :)
#
jasnell
in AS2, everything is an "Object", even Activities. In IndieWeb, everything is a Post
#
AnnB
... I think there's a mapping, and I'm trying to think about that
#
AnnB
... so far I have not come across anything that is not a "post"
#
AnnB
sandro: is it correct to refer to microformats or IndieWebCamp?
#
AnnB
aaronpk: microformat is a vocabulary and a context, and IndieWebCamp is a community
#
cwebber2
rhiaro_++
#
Loqi
rhiaro_ has 69 karma
#
cwebber2
about trying to merge worlds there :)
#
deiu
rhiaro++
#
Loqi
rhiaro has 70 karma
#
elf-pavlik
issue-15
#
trackbot
issue-15 -- AS2.0 Vocabulary in many ways duplicates microformats.org and schema.org efforts -- open
#
trackbot
is looking up issue-15.
#
cwebber2
bridge worlds!
#
AnnB
arnaud: rhiaro appears in a unique position, in that she's actually been trying to map these systems against each other
#
AnnB
... so, what's your opinion rhiaro?
#
AnnB
sandro: I don't care about duplication, I do care about interop
#
AnnB
rhiaro: biggest problem is that the people see the basic models as different
#
AnnB
... but I think, in the end, they are more similar than people than think
#
Zakim
sees jasnell on the speaker queue
#
AnnB
... but I don't know what the solution is
#
cwebber2
audio is breaking up here for me
#
sandro
rhiaro: biggest problem is the fundamental models underlying AS2 and MF are different
#
cwebber2
though AnnB's transcribing is helping!
#
AnnB
... other than try to implement and see what happens
#
AnnB
... I'm trying now to post something in microformats structure
#
Arnaud
ack jasnell
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
AnnB
... next will try AS
#
AnnB
jasnell: IF someone wants to create a mapping; I'm all for a concrete proposal for that mapping
#
AnnB
... Issue 15 is much too generic, and is not actionable
#
eprodrom
+1
#
AnnB
... propose closing itt
#
AnnB
... someone can come up with a more concrete issue
#
cwebber2
+1 also
#
AnnB
s/itt /it /
#
cwebber2
I think it would make sense to have a more concrete proposal
#
AnnB
arnaud: can you agree with this direction?
#
AnnB
elf: too bad Harry left the room ... because he recently proposed something similar
#
AnnB
... also Tantek is not here
#
AnnB
... if the Issue as stated is too blurry, it's OK to close
#
jasnell
if someone wants to propose using microformats terms in AS2, then they'll need to (a) show examples of how it would work and (b) describing the normative mapping
#
Arnaud
PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-15 as is
#
AnnB
+1
#
eprodrom
+1
#
sandro
+1 but very interested in solving the related underlying interop issues!
#
elf-pavlik
-0 we currently have proposal from harry to include microformat terms in AS vocaba and/or context
#
Tsyesika
I think closing it does make sense since it is quite vague but i think the discussion did bring up a good interop issue between AS 2.0 and microformats so it'd be interested in seeing rhiaro_'s produce an issue
#
Arnaud
RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-15 as is
#
cwebber2
good, will give me a chance to brew coffee and make a quick breakfast :)
#
Arnaud
*lunch break for 1h*
#
AnnB
arnaud: goal is to write very specific issues, with actions that are clear
#
AnnB
rrsagent, make minutes
#
RRSAgent
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/04-social-minutes.html AnnB
#
Zakim
-eprodrom
#
eprodrom
I'm going to be available from 13h -> 14h and then after 16h
bblfish joined the channel
#
wseltzer
[lunch break]
#
jasnell
are we starting again soon?
#
wseltzer
jasnell, I hear noises on the stairs, so people may be returning
#
cwebber2
sounds like people have returned :)
eprodrom joined the channel
#
Arnaud
just sitting down
#
Arnaud
sorry for the delay, restaurant was a bit slow
#
cwebber2
no worries :)
#
Zakim
+eprodrom
#
cwebber2
Arnaud: you all are just trying to savor Paris' gastronimical offerings :)
#
Arnaud
we're still missing a few people
#
jasnell
I usually wake up an hour from now
#
eprodrom
ha ha
#
jasnell
thankfully, my fiancee is taking the kids to school this morning so I can sleep
#
elf-pavlik
sandro, re _: in JSON-LD context, just in case you didn't see this closed issue: https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/36
rhiaro_ joined the channel
#
elf-pavlik
scribe: elf-pavlik
#
elf-pavlik
Arnaud: let's resume and close as many issues as we can
AnnB joined the channel
#
elf-pavlik
... jasnell please pick a victim
#
elf-pavlik
issue-16
#
trackbot
is looking up issue-16.
#
trackbot
issue-16 -- better separate grammar/vocabulary and improved spec structure -- open
#
elf-pavlik
jasnell i see it straight forward
#
AnnB
bblfish (Henry Story) arrives
#
Zakim
+ +1.401.305.aaaa
#
ben_thatmustbeme
Zakim, aaaa is me
#
Zakim
+ben_thatmustbeme; got it
#
ben_thatmustbeme
Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim
ben_thatmustbeme should now be muted
#
AnnB
waves at Ben
#
elf-pavlik
... comes down if we want to split terms into core and extended
#
AnnB
wonders if you have twins yet?
#
ben_thatmustbeme
AnnB, not yet, getting close though
#
elf-pavlik
... implementers will need to look in two separate places
#
elf-pavlik
... i would prefer to keep it together
#
eprodrom
q+
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Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
akuckartz joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme
can only listen in for a little right now. Will have to board a train to work in an hour and a half
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom, sandro on the speaker queue
obergix joined the channel
#
Arnaud
ack eprodrom
#
Zakim
sees sandro on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
elf-pavlik: i see grammar / core needing to stay more stable & frozen while extended terms can change and evolve more
#
AnnB
jasnell and eprodrom get big kudos for staying up so late at night!
#
elf-pavlik
eprodrom: i see it fine the way it stays and deffer to jasnell
#
Arnaud
ack sandro
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
+1 on deferring to jasnell
#
elf-pavlik
sandro: i don't know what i talk about, different namespaces or editorial?
#
AnnB
s/deffer/defer/
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ben_thatmustbeme
yeah, that started at like 4 am this morning.... could not do that
#
elf-pavlik
jasnell: i see it as editorial proposal
#
elf-pavlik
sandro: fine to defer to editor, if we want to split namespace i would have problem
#
elf-pavlik
jasnell: i can separate that if you want
#
eprodrom
q+
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Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
Arnaud
ack eprodrom
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
elf-pavlik: grammar terms like as:object, as:actor etc. can drawn in less important terms, but i see more importance in JSON-LD contexts than editorial
#
elf-pavlik
eprodrom: i leave it to editor
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eprodrom
+1
#
elf-pavlik
eprodrom: i want to see show of hands, how many people are familiar in core vs. extended classes?
#
rhiaro_
+1 I think so..
#
AnnB
-1
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elf-pavlik
+ i can see diference
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melvster1_
+1
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ben_thatmustbeme
+0.5 (read some of it, know what the difference is)
#
sandro
0 some but not a lot
bblfish joined the channel
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AnnB
hey there bblfish
#
elf-pavlik
jasnell: i will take another look at it and make editorial changes to address this issue
#
wseltzer
heard jasnell will take another look
#
Arnaud
RESOLVED: Leave it to James to edit as he sees fit and check back with Erik to see if that satisfies him
#
eprodrom
+1
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Arnaud
s/him/ISSUE-16/
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rhiaro_
thinks everyone is subtly napping after lunch
#
obergix
zhhhhh
#
elf-pavlik
jasnell: few weeks we resolved that Person object represents profile
#
elf-pavlik
s/few weeks/few weeks ago/
#
rhiaro_
issue 17 is duplicated in issue 26, is that what jasnell just said?
#
trackbot
doesn't understand that ISSUE command.
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Zakim
sees rhiaro_ on the speaker queue
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elf-pavlik
elf-pavlik: ok with closing it
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Arnaud
ack rhiaro_
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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elf-pavlik
rhiaro_: duplicated in issue-26
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elf-pavlik
issuee-26
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wseltzer
issue-26?
#
trackbot
is looking up issue-26.
#
trackbot
issue-26 -- Representing profiles in Activity Streams 2.0 -- open
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Zakim
sees sandro on the speaker queue
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Arnaud
ack sandro
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
sandro: i will repeat myself
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elf-pavlik
... most of the work in this place i consider wrong!
#
Zakim
sees jasnell on the speaker queue
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elf-pavlik
... people modeling humans who don't want to be model as computers
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elf-pavlik
... existing mainstream models model accoutns
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Zakim
sees jasnell, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
melvster1: facebook models humans
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Arnaud
ack jasnell
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Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
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Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
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elf-pavlik
jasnell: PROPOSAL we chose just not to model people and don't define any of actual properties
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bblfish
I disagree with what @sandro said, but it's probably immaterial now
#
Arnaud
ack bblfish
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
+1 on closing 17 -1 on closing 26
#
elf-pavlik
jasnell: this will allow us to close issue-26 and issue-17
#
elf-pavlik
bblfish: i disagree with sandro, FOAF has Agent and account
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
... but immaterial to questions
#
elf-pavlik
+1 rhiaro_
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Arnaud
RESOLVED: Close Issue-17 as superceded by issue-26
#
elf-pavlik
Arnaud: meant PROPOSED not RESOLVED
#
Arnaud
s/RESOLVED/PROPOSED/
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eprodrom
+1
#
Arnaud
RESOLVED: Close Issue-17 as superceded by issue-26
#
elf-pavlik
elf-pavlik: if someone has proposal for multiple profiles please put it out
#
bblfish
Issue-26?
#
trackbot
is looking up Issue-26.
#
trackbot
Issue-26 -- Representing profiles in Activity Streams 2.0 -- open
#
jasnell
I'm unable to hear amy
#
elf-pavlik
rhiaro_: if you have profile on one site and want to move it to another site you need way to do that
#
elf-pavlik
... i still work on it and can take ACTION to make counter proposal to current Profile draft
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elf-pavlik
jasnell: i don't see need to have our own way to model profiles
#
eprodrom
q+
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
i opened issue-26 to decide how to model *Actions* on existing profile
#
elf-pavlik
jasnell: we have existing vocabs like vcard
#
Arnaud
ack eprodrom
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
elf-pavlik: also h-card (currently not compatible with AS2.0)
#
elf-pavlik
eprodrom: i understand that we have concept of a Person but would like to model that single person has more than one aspect to the world
#
rhiaro_
I think in that case I would agree with not going into modelling a profile for AS2, but would prefer to rename it something other than Person, which becomes misleading
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elf-pavlik
... my work aspect, my personal aspect, my private aspects etc.
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ben_thatmustbeme
There does not really seem to be any existing system to do this (at least to me), you just create a second account
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
eprodrom: i see it as interesting way to do social networking but in 2016 single person maps with single acounts
#
Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
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ben_thatmustbeme
i mean any existing public social network that does this
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elf-pavlik
... we could put some support for it as another element ~ aspect, own by person or controlled by person
#
rhiaro_
ben_thatmustbeme: and then it's a pain if you want to move things around between networks, right?
hhalpin joined the channel
#
elf-pavlik
q+ to ask parklize about sioc:UserAccount and foaf:Person
#
Zakim
sees bblfish, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
ben_thatmustbeme
I would argue we continue with a single person, but can come back to in later versions
#
Arnaud
ack bblfish
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Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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eprodrom
Are we talking about FOAF?
#
eprodrom
I'm confused
#
elf-pavlik
bblfish: i know foaf:Person and see it vaguely defined
#
eprodrom
Aren't we talking about AS 2.0?
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elf-pavlik
... something about 4-dimentional time continum (scribe didn't get it ;)
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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elf-pavlik
... URI reffering to the person doesn't mean always the same person
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deiu
wonders if AnnB is ok :)
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, jasnell on the speaker queue
#
ben_thatmustbeme
rhiaro_, it can be, but I really don't think we should be concerned with adding functionality for that
#
elf-pavlik
... we should keep timeline in mind
#
Zakim
-cwebber2
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elf-pavlik
bblfish: e.g. changing jobs and any other cases
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melvster1_
foaf person can also be an 'imaginary friend'
#
Zakim
+??P2
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elf-pavlik
... where you want to move identities or have them merged
#
elf-pavlik
Arnaud: i have impression that issue-27 relies on resolution of issue-26
#
cwebber2
Zakim, +??P2 is me
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Zakim
sorry, cwebber2, I do not recognize a party named '+??P2'
#
elf-pavlik
jasnell: vocabulary currently has a Person object
#
elf-pavlik
... i could say that i added particular piece of information to my profile
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eprodrom
as:Person as:Update as:Person
#
ben_thatmustbeme
then again, in indieweb, this is a matter of rel=me to my facebook account. If facebook was able to integrate directly to my site, i wouldn't need that account
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, jasnell, rhiaro_ on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom
q+
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, jasnell, rhiaro_, eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
Arnaud: do you say that we don't need anything else than we have to describe person?
#
Arnaud
ack elf-pavlik
#
Zakim
elf-pavlik, you wanted to ask parklize about sioc:UserAccount and foaf:Person
#
Zakim
sees jasnell, rhiaro_, eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
Zakim, ??P2 is me
#
Zakim
+cwebber2; got it
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ben_thatmustbeme
hey cwebber2
#
rhiaro_
sioc model is largely fine
#
elf-pavlik
elf-pavlik: why SIOC defines sioc:UserAccount
#
rhiaro_
sioc is missing personas, but don't need to go there now :p
#
aaronpk
deiu: it's sleepytime on the west coast. i'm feeling it too.
#
elf-pavlik
parklize: foaf:Person defines a person and in our perspective one has multiple accounts
#
Arnaud
ack jasnell
#
Zakim
sees rhiaro_, eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
Arnaud
ack rhiaro_
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
hhalpin
do we have a use-case where this difference makes a difference (i.e. between account and profile)?
#
elf-pavlik
in SIOC we use sioc:UserAccount as *author* of a sioc:Post
#
hhalpin
My guess is no.
#
hhalpin
Until I see one.
#
aaronpk
hhalpin++
#
Loqi
hhalpin has 5 karma
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
rhiaro_: fine with not having new model but consider renaming Person to e.g. Profile
#
elf-pavlik
elf-pavlik: or Persona
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ben_thatmustbeme
rhiaro_, couldn't hear you on the phone
#
sandro
+1 rhiaro let's rename Person so people don't keep thinking it's a Person
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Arnaud
ack eprodrom
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Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
+1 rename Person
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hhalpin
The only use-case I can see is migrating personal profiles from one system to another and connecting them to a single person
cwebber2 joined the channel
#
cwebber2
irc client was going crazy, back
#
akuckartz
Yes, rename "Person"
#
elf-pavlik
eprodrom: the way you think about it in AS2.0 it may seam crazy that actor operates on oneself, but for me it makes a lot of sense
#
Arnaud
PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-26, renaming Person as Profile
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eprodrom
as:Person as:Update as:Person
#
ben_thatmustbeme
+1 for just "update profile"
#
rhiaro_
I think a 'person/profile' updating itself is fine too, the connection to an IRL person isn't necessary
#
elf-pavlik
jasnell: issue-27 asks if we need to model specific *granular* updates to profiles
#
rhiaro_
I think issue 27 and 26 are merging now
#
bblfish
+1 for jasneell
#
rhiaro_
in discussion
#
elf-pavlik
q+ re: Person's profile, Organization's profile, Event's profile, Venue's profile
#
Zakim
sees bblfish, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
ben_thatmustbeme
was just about to point out API thing
#
bblfish
jasnell++
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Loqi
jasnell has 15 karma
#
AnnB
to deiu ... haha ... naptime!
#
rhiaro_
elf-pavlik: good point re: profiles for non-persons
#
hhalpin
Usually a:Person has a name and age (1983?), not a a:Profile (likely a few years old).
#
elf-pavlik
eprodrom: i see you point in having value about say 'this what the delta was - kim removed phone number' but keeping it simple sounds better for now - Kim updated her profile
#
Zakim
sees bblfish, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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hhalpin
It all gets pretty zen pretty quickly "Does a profile have a name?"
#
AnnB
q+
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Zakim
sees bblfish, elf-pavlik, AnnB on the speaker queue
#
hhalpin
i.e. there is no correct way to do this, it's all context dependent.
#
hhalpin
q?
#
Zakim
sees bblfish, elf-pavlik, AnnB on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
eprodrom: i don't like idea of renaming Person to Profile
#
elf-pavlik
... how many of us knows the different classes?
#
Arnaud
PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-26, use Person for profiles
#
elf-pavlik
... if we need to represant Organization
#
elf-pavlik
eprodrom: many add software process as actor
#
AnnB
q-
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Zakim
sees bblfish, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
Arnaud
ack bblfish
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
hhalpin
For example, cases where "profile" vs. "person" make a difference, can we just maybe do this in extensibility and not in the core Vocabulary?
#
elf-pavlik
bblfish: we need both Profile and Person
#
ben_thatmustbeme
would the ability to have "alternate person that is also me" be possible?
#
hhalpin
q+
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, hhalpin on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
you can edit profile *document* which differs from Person
#
elf-pavlik
bblfish: let's use FOAF
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, hhalpin, jasnell on the speaker queue
#
ben_thatmustbeme
if a single person in the real world has 2 accounts, they can link to their other "me"
#
hhalpin
^^ Again, we've been down this rathole a few times
#
eprodrom
hhalpin: I agree, I think it's some fine parsing
#
elf-pavlik
bblfish: we can also use foaf:Person + sioc:UserAccount
#
Arnaud
ack elf-pavlik
#
Zakim
elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss Person's profile, Organization's profile, Event's profile, Venue's profile
#
Zakim
sees hhalpin, jasnell on the speaker queue
#
hhalpin
otherewise known as a waste of time IMHO
#
deiu
wonders if we can bring in http-range14 at this point
#
hhalpin
exactly
#
hhalpin
sigh
#
bblfish
I am for having two terms: Person/Persona and Profile
#
Arnaud
ack hhalpin
#
Zakim
sees jasnell on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
hhalpin: we can try to design perfect vocabulary
#
akuckartz
http-range14++
#
Loqi
http-range14 has 1 karma
#
elf-pavlik
... but we will never agree
#
elf-pavlik
akuckartz++
#
Loqi
akuckartz has 2 karma
#
deiu
wooo...low karma ftl
#
bblfish
the case was made that user story 1 had this
#
elf-pavlik
hhalpin: where in approved user stories we need this difference
#
ben_thatmustbeme
agrees this is on a gravity well to range14
#
elf-pavlik
... we can stay very ambiogous about real name or not
#
wseltzer
a person can have multiple persons, whatever we name them
#
Arnaud
ack jasnell
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
... in favor of not changing anything unless we really need it proved by use case
#
hhalpin
I *really* think we will never come to agreement on perfect vocabulary modeling
#
hhalpin
that is why we have extensibility
#
Loqi
hhalpin has 6 karma
#
hhalpin
so, is there really a difference where we absolutely need a profile versus person difference?
#
eprodrom
I have to leave, unfortunately
#
elf-pavlik
Arnaud: do we have user story that requires making a difference
#
hhalpin
If it's not clear, then let's wait till we implement it and see if it becomes clear
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
implementation++
#
Loqi
implementation has 1 karma
#
elf-pavlik
q+ re: ask aaronpk about semantics of h-card
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
AnnB
s/ambiogous /ambiguous /
#
hhalpin
vocabulary definition discussed in abstract will go on indefinitely
#
elf-pavlik
jasnell: we don't need to take time to define it precisely
#
bblfish
jasnell
#
elf-pavlik
enough that we can say Person updated Profile
#
bblfish
one could have just the general notion of a document
#
hhalpin
To be honest, I don't really care, w can add it and if no-one uses it by the time we hit CR, we delete it.
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
I agree we don't need both, I just think Person name is misleading
#
elf-pavlik
jasnell: just having possibility to mark something as profile makes sense to me
#
eprodrom
Thanks, all
#
Zakim
-eprodrom
#
Arnaud
ack elf-pavlik
#
Zakim
elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss ask aaronpk about semantics of h-card
#
Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
sandro
rhiaro, I can live with "Person" as long as we're clear in the documentation that "Person" can be fake, and does NOT refer to a Human Being.
#
hhalpin
yep, we need to clear it can be fake
#
elf-pavlik
elf-pavlik: can one person can have multiple h-cards
#
hhalpin
i.e. multiple personae
#
elf-pavlik
aaronpk: h-card doesn't represent an account since has no service associated to it
#
elf-pavlik
... it vaguely represents person
#
Arnaud
PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-26, use Person for profiles, clarifying that a Person need not be a physical person
#
elf-pavlik
elf-pavlik: what about rel="me"
#
akuckartz
What if some one want s to model Person in an extension ?
#
elf-pavlik
aaronpk: it links URLs i can link to my twitter account which doesn't have h-card
#
Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
bblfish: person Persona as superclass of person
#
Arnaud
ack bblfish
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
jasnell
-1 to introducing Persona or renaming Person to Persona
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees sandro on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
bblfish: we already have documents with ldp:Resource so we can already distinguish people from resources
#
Arnaud
ack sandro
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
sandro: fine with keeping Person and cleaning up documentation
#
jasnell
+1 on the proposal
#
rhiaro_
+1 with clarifying documentation
#
Arnaud
PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-26, use Person for profiles, clarifying that a Person need not be a physical/real person
#
sandro
+1 with clarifying documentation
#
melvster1_
-1
#
bblfish
remove -1
#
hhalpin
"Represents an individual person." -> "Represents an entity that can be communicate, i.e. a person or a personae of a person"
#
elf-pavlik
deiu: can we vote on *definition* not on word?
#
cwebber2
sure, +1
#
elf-pavlik
melvster1_: the way we model thinks in FOAF community, we keep distinction between profile document and person herself
#
hhalpin
^ that's my try of a definition
#
rhiaro_
wrt to profiles, a profile can have a different creation date to a person has a birthdate - but if that never ever comes up as a problem, they can be one and the same
#
jasnell
fwiw.. I would be +1 to the notion of adding a Profile object type
#
elf-pavlik
q+ re: to point two different issues discussed at the same time
#
Zakim
sees re: on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
q+ re: point two different issues discussed at the same time
#
Zakim
sees re:, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
hhalpin
Usually when you like a profile, it means you like a person
#
hhalpin
i.e. contextual ambiguity is resolved.
#
elf-pavlik
melvster1_: we had with tantek this coversation over time
#
elf-pavlik
... i may like Rick Martin's page but not him as person
tantek joined the channel
#
elf-pavlik
melvster1_++
#
Loqi
melvster1_ has 1 karma
#
aaronpk
s/tantek/sandeep
#
hhalpin
Yes, but another person (in fact, most people) would "like" Ricky Martin's page because they like Ricky Martin, not his CSS
#
elf-pavlik
deiu: can profile represent multiple people
#
ben_thatmustbeme
we are talking range14 but not by name
#
hhalpin
yep
#
elf-pavlik
melvster1: my profile contains me and my public key
#
bblfish
++melvster
#
Zakim
wonders where +melvster is
#
rhiaro_
I'd hoped to avoid going this far
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
tantek, back away
#
elf-pavlik
Arnaud: do we see this distinction relevant in context of AS2.0 and our user stories?
#
elf-pavlik
bblfish: didn't we have user story to like something so melvster1 story makes sense
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
hhalpin
sigh
#
elf-pavlik
bblfish: we can follow a person but like their personal page not them
#
jasnell
fading very fast here. sleep was a long 24 hours ago
#
hhalpin
anyways...
#
ben_thatmustbeme
hhalpin, who is chair right now?
#
wseltzer
q+
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, wseltzer on the speaker queue
#
hhalpin
Arnaud
#
elf-pavlik
aaronpk: on social web we talk about following people's content not them literaly
#
ben_thatmustbeme
Arnaud: we could waste the entire day talking about http-range14 without using the name... but can we do something to stop that
#
elf-pavlik
bblfish: in the web you describe people, Cesar different than book about him
#
cwebber2
I agree, please move on
#
hhalpin
Again, humans resolve contextual ambiguity just fine
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, wseltzer on the speaker queue
#
akuckartz
We could resolve this by renaming Person ...
#
hhalpin
machines don't.
#
wseltzer
q+ to suggest that we don't need to resolve this. We don't need a way to talk about abstract "Person"
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, wseltzer on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
i think we need a range14 hammer
#
Arnaud
ack elf-pavlik
#
Zakim
elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss point two different issues discussed at the same time
#
Zakim
sees wseltzer on the speaker queue
#
ben_thatmustbeme
or at least re-poll and see if we can resolve -1's