#social 2015-05-04
2015-05-04 UTC
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# 
Loqi Akuckart made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-05-04]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83984&oldid=83983
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# Loqi tantek: elf-pavlik left you a message on 5/1 at 9:28am: I hope you and Evan can try to work together on getting your systems to interoperate :) https://github.com/w3c-social/social-web/issues/1 http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-05-01/line/1430497736034
# Loqi tantek: elf-pavlik left you a message 2 days, 10 hours ago: last telecon you pretty much made an argument that Webfinger JRD stays compatibile with HTML while Microformats JSON "rels" NOT! http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-04-28/line/1430244146625 http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-05-01/line/1430514179959
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# 
RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/05/04-social-irc
# 
Jessica_Lily is Tsyesika, using webirc as I can't ssh into the Tsyesika weechat
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# wseltzer zakim, this is SOCL
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# 
elf-pavlik wishes for fast progress on http://w3c.github.io/modern-tooling/ & https://www.w3.org/community/webzakim/
# wseltzer zakim, who is here?
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# Jessica_Lily I'm Jessica Tallon (Tsyesika) from GNU Mediagoblin
# AnnB Ann Bassetti, Boeing
# elf-pavlik elf Pavlik - independed / polyaffiliated
# AnnB scribenick: AnnB
# wseltzer Wendy_Seltzer, W3C
# AnnB Arnaud: will work on: Activity Streams, make progress on protocol, ...
# elf-pavlik jasnell++ for staying up at night to join us :)
# AnnB ... change from original agenda, to have James Snell (@jasnell) on first, to accommodate Pacific time zone (middle of night)
# AnnB jasnell++
# AnnB I would appreciate if the rest of you could put your name and association into IRC
# AnnB so we have the proper list of attendees
# AnnB James Snell:
# AnnB ... number of issues in Tracker
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# AnnB ... re: Activity Streams...
# wseltzer Present+ Elf_Pavlik, AnnB, Olivier_Berger, Arnaud_LeHors, Wendy_Seltzer, Melvin_Carvalho, Andrei_Sambra
# AnnB ... have 1st iteration of test harness .. loaded on Saturday
# melvster1_ name : Melvin Carvalho (inependent)
# AnnB ... node-based application
# AnnB ... need to start iterating on it
# AnnB ... please help
# wseltzer Present+ Jessica_Tallon, Amy_Guy, Aaron_Parecki, Sandro_Hawke
# AnnB ... this is the test harness jasnell's colleague JT demo'd
# AnnB ... jasnell is busy for next couple weeks, but then will work on it
# AnnB ... good beginning for test harness
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# AnnB Arnaud: (clarifying).. we pushed JT to put this harness out there, even though the code wasn't done
# AnnB ... it's not his job, we "volunteered" him
# AnnB ... but we wanted to get it out there, so people can start helping
# AnnB ... creating tests
# elf-pavlik q+ re: how people implementing libs and tools can use it for automated testing?
# AnnB ... would be really helpful if WG members would let us know who can work on this
# wseltzer Present+ Paul_Tran-Van
# AnnB Sandro: could someone give an overview of how this harness works?
# AnnB Arnaud / jasnell: JT is in process of documenting
# AnnB jasnell: give an AS instance
# AnnB ... it will check if it's valid JSON
# AnnB <then other things happen that I missed ... maybe @jasnell can type later>
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# AnnB s/JT/JP/
# AnnB Sandro: it runs as a web service?
# AnnB jasnell: yes .. runs as a node web app
# elf-pavlik q?
# AnnB ... goal is to be able to install locally, but not quite ready on that
# AnnB sandro: why?
# AnnB jasnell: to be able to test your own docs, if you don't want to share publicly
# AnnB arnaud: right now it's rudimentary, but it's only beginning
# AnnB thanks jasnell
# AnnB sleep is good
# AnnB arnaud: goal is totdemonstrate we have interoperability in the spec
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: as WG we need to deliver implementations report
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# AnnB elf: I see there are 2 implementations started
# AnnB ... are there plans to automate?
# AnnB ... for people who built libraries
# AnnB ... another guy I will meet with in Dusseldorf has some stuff
# AnnB ... how can he work on this
# elf-pavlik Nick (working on sockethub) writes different JS AS2.0 library
# AnnB jasnell: that's the goal, but I'm not clear exactly on how it will work
# AnnB ... ideally we'll be able to drop into some environment, and it'll just run... but none of that is worked out yet
# AnnB sandro: what threw me off is the name "test harness"
# AnnB ... what you really mean is "feed validator", right?
# AnnB jasnell: yes, right now only validator ..
# AnnB ... longer goal is more
# AnnB arnaud: what is expected?
# AnnB sandro: nice to have test feeds and something to do with them
# AnnB arnaud: that's part of the challenge, there's only so much you can do in this case
# AnnB sandro: I guess you could have some valid and invalid AS
# elf-pavlik q+ re: testing expected *side effects* after adding an Activity to dataset
# AnnB jasnell: yes ... will come more into play when we have an API
# AnnB sandro: there
# AnnB elf: we were talking about testing side effects
# AnnB ... how do side effects happen ..
# AnnB ... before and after activity happens
# AnnB arnaud: we can only validate the stream
# AnnB sandro: once we know what API we're doing, we can figure out better how to test i
# AnnB s/test i/test it/
# AnnB elf: can test what it looks like before activity and after activity
# AnnB jasnell: we can test "stories", based on our user stories, for certain scenarios
# AnnB ... what is expected output
# AnnB ... with some syntax variances
# Loqi Wseltzer made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-05-04]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83987&oldid=83984
# AnnB ... for now we can only go so far
# AnnB elf: I'll try to make a pull request on what I was suggesting
# AnnB ... trying to illustrate; we can see if it works or not
# elf-pavlik i'll make pull request with test for how Follow activity affects the dataset
# AnnB arnaud: anything else on test suite?
# AnnB <silence>
# AnnB jasnell: moving on with open issues
# AnnB ... there are 13 open issues
# AnnB ... Tracker issues (not github)
# AnnB ... 2 new ones
# wseltzer ISSUE-20?
# AnnB ... 1 by Eric Wilde
# AnnB ... don't want to close it without Eric being able to discuss it
# AnnB .... would rather wait for concrete proposal
# elf-pavlik -1 to fiddle with tracker now
# AnnB ... therefore recommend we do not open it
# elf-pavlik can we discuss
# elf-pavlik issue-36
# AnnB <hope jasnell can type his explanation into IRC later>
# AnnB ... not clear how this would work with JSON-LD, nor what it would "buy" us
# AnnB ... we currently represent as a document with an items array
# elf-pavlik q+ re: picking only issues most relevant to us dissing them F2F here
# AnnB elf: for most people here, this is hard to discuss ...
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# AnnB ... might be better use of our time to discuss items we are engaged with
# AnnB arnaud: this isn't "random"; jasnell is the editor, and he's just going through the issues
# AnnB OK
# AnnB elf: .... that's just my observation; I might be wrong
# AnnB jasnell: yes there's a proposal, but no examples on how it should work
# AnnB sandro: this sounds like something that could be added later based on context negotiation, yes?
# AnnB jasnell: yes
# AnnB ... agree
# AnnB arnaud: the proposal is to close this issue (that is, not open it)
# AnnB jasnell: if someone can come with a concrete proposal later, they are invited to raise it again
# elf-pavlik 0
# AnnB abstain
# AnnB (leavingn it to the geeks)
# wseltzer +1
# obergix (just an observer)
# Jessica_Lily +1
# melvster1_ 0
# parklize 0
# elf-pavlik issue-36
# AnnB jasnell: can we talk about raised issues first?
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# AnnB ... we don't need to solve this one yet, but I do recommend opening it
# AnnB sandro: we can't make progress on this until we decide on API
# AnnB ... but probably OK to open it
# AnnB arnaud: I find this a bit premature
# AnnB ... LDP stuck
# elf-pavlik +1
# AnnB jasnell: point of reference: I've implemented it both ways
# AnnB ... found that clients implement both ways
# AnnB ... I think it'd be good to at least leave open
# AnnB Harry arrives
# wseltzer Present+ Harry_Halpin
# AnnB jasnell: OK, now to the open issues
# AnnB ... quite a few of them
# AnnB elf wants to start with #36
# AnnB elf: I find it interesting that we try to have JSON and RDF
# AnnB ... how we design and implement will be crucial
# AnnB ... will it be frozen or can it still adjust over time?
# AnnB ... lately jasnell was flattening namespaces ... which makes it hard in RDF
# AnnB ... how do we handle this
# AnnB ... how do we understand the JSON context?
# 
tantek ASIDE: Was there any discussion in the f2f meeting about explicit goals for the meeting? So far there is only "Proposed Goals": https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-05-04#Goals_for_the_meeting
# AnnB jasnell: re: context ... keep in mind: 1) there is a context that is normative; 2) keep it minimal
# AnnB ... I think we should remove a lot of the non-AS vocabulary other than vcard
# AnnB <can someone else fill in this bit?>
# elf-pavlik q+ re: 'denamespacing' vcard e.g meaning of Home after that
# Loqi Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-05-04]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83989&oldid=83987
# elf-pavlik sandro if term 'foo' doesn't have URI will get blank node _:foo
# AnnB jasnell: challenge is json-ld contexts are not perfect ... no versioning
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# AnnB ... keep context as minimal as possible
# elf-pavlik if it dosn't map in context to URI
# elf-pavlik sandro please see https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/36
# AnnB arnaud: asks sandro what the policy is in publishing this kind of stuff
# AnnB sandro: namespaces won't break interop; but contexts will
# AnnB ... in new Process doc, it's more lightweight
# elf-pavlik q?
# AnnB Harry: in order to make an change like this, we don't have to re-open WG
# AnnB ... something like "re-open" but not "re-charter"... not sure
# AnnB ... more lightweight
# elf-pavlik q-
# elf-pavlik q+ re: multiple contexts and relations to issue-16
# AnnB arnaud: does this mean we have to have it in the spec as well?
# elf-pavlik issue-16
# AnnB ... what would it take to close this issue?
# AnnB sandro: there are a couple aspects to this
# AnnB ... depends on what type of change
# AnnB ... there are forward and backward-compatible changes
# AnnB ... but changing mapping to existing namespace would break existing stuff
# AnnB jasnell: it's hard to make changes that will break nothin
# AnnB s/nothin/nothing/
# AnnB sandro: how to do extensibility? is that a solid requirement?
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# AnnB ... is it important that someone be able to add an enterprise-specific XYZ?
# eprodrom Hello all
# AnnB jasnell: absolutely yes
# AnnB ... have real-world examples
# elf-pavlik extensibility also relates to issue-16 !!!
# AnnB ... people can extend, so long as it's not part of AS namespace
# AnnB arnaud: then there's no way for us to guarantee we won't break those extensions
# AnnB jasnell: diff extensions might conflict .. yes .. that's not the issue .. we're talking about the core
# elf-pavlik issue-36 says multiple contexts <- pluaral
# AnnB jasnell: can add stuff via json-ld
# AnnB sandro: but doesn't that break it for others, who aren't using json?
# elf-pavlik q?
# AnnB ... what if one company adds an extension
# AnnB ... then others in their sphere also use that
# AnnB arnaud: only way to get unique names is to use context (?)
# AnnB harry: in any decentralized system, you can't guarantee that everyone will understand everything
# AnnB ... XML has same issue
# AnnB elf: it's a challenge, but maybe not a problem
# AnnB sandro: give warning: if you get stuff you don't understand, then what to do
# AnnB ... in practice json-ld will have lots of extensions
# melvster1_ q+
# elf-pavlik issue-16
# AnnB ... harmful to have only json 'reading' of this
# AnnB elf: need to have diff strategy
# eprodrom Is there not a video console set up in the room?
# AnnB eprodrom: no
# eprodrom I'm not seeing anyone else on https://talky.io/socialweb
# eprodrom Oh
# AnnB hold on... maybe we can get it set up
# eprodrom OK
# AnnB oh, sorry
# eprodrom >:(
# wseltzer eprodrom, no, we don't have enough network connectivity for talky
# elf-pavlik talky will not work, we have ports blocked here
# eprodrom Gotcha
# AnnB problem is that this network blocks it
# AnnB dang
# AnnB sandro: json extensibility won't work
# AnnB ... or, it works, but with lots of 'danger'
# AnnB ... ditto RDF
# eprodrom q+
# AnnB ... we should not change the context content
# AnnB elf: that's why we should be careful what we put in it
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# AnnB melvster: this namespace problem not specific to AS
# hhalpin waves
# hhalpin q?
# AnnB ... exist in java .. hasn't been that much of a problem
# hhalpin q+
# AnnB jasnell: we have already built in the <something> model ... which helps namespace your properties
# AnnB ... any system that has extensions runs risk of reducing interop
# AnnB ... best we can say is, "ignore what you don't understand"
# AnnB ... keep the core stable
# AnnB ... add stuff that you want, but realize you run the risk of instability
# AnnB eprodrom: AS is really quite complete
# AnnB ... most is there
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# elf-pavlik i bet most people don't understand semantics vcard:Homa has!
# AnnB ... if you want to use a new vocabulary .. that's OK, but just know that you are extending core vocab
# AnnB ... most of what we need is there already
# AnnB harry: I agree with Evan; plus vcard is very complete
# AnnB ... in current spec, would it be helpful to put something like "must ignore"?
# 
jasnell "In Activity Streams 2.0, an "extension" is any property not defined by the Activity Vocabulary. Consuming implementations that encounter unfamiliar extensions must not stop processing or signal an error and must continue processing the items as if those properties were not present. Support for specific extensions can vary across implementations and no normative processing model for extensions is provided."
# elf-pavlik oops
# AnnB ... what's current status of spec on this?
# hhalpin should we say MUST ignore
# hhalpin or have some specified error processing (which is what most Web APIs do?)
# AnnB arnaud: I think "ignore" is too strong
# elf-pavlik q+ re: distinction between AS2.0 Vocabulary and normative JSON-LD context
# AnnB ... what you don't want application to balk
# AnnB jasnell: want to be careful to not drop data on floor by mistake
# hhalpin So should we say 'don't throw an error, but keep data'?
# AnnB ... better to say 'don't drop data if you don't understand it' ...
# hhalpin I think that's the real question.
# hhalpin I'm OK with keeping the text the way its written, but I just am trying to clarify what I think the concern is from Sandro and a way to address.
# AnnB sandro: is there any reason we need to have only one context?
# eprodrom Yes
# eprodrom q+
# hhalpin Historically, I'm pretty sure people don't use namespaces
# hhalpin so I'd prefer to keep a pretty large base context
# eprodrom +1
# AnnB jasnell: if we think vcard will cause conflicts, then we could remove it
# AnnB ... some terms in vcard vocab need to be slightly re-worked (?)
# AnnB ... one wayy to close this issue is to say only AS is normative
# eprodrom -1
# AnnB jasnell: we could have 1 normative, with others as "extended"
# AnnB sandro: e.g., "AS 1 context", then "AS 2 context" ..
# AnnB elf: haven't heard how we handle media types
# AnnB ... json context is diffferent from vocabulary
# AnnB eprodrom: disagree with having various contexts
# AnnB ... we should provide 1) core; 2) vocab
# AnnB ... if others want to add extensions... they can do that, but should not count on interop
# AnnB ... esp want to ensure our social API has a complete package .. then others can use extensions to add new functionalityy
# AnnB arnaud: seeking proposals to close this issue
# AnnB jasnell: question to eprodrom ... should we keep vcard or not
# AnnB ?
# elf-pavlik my proposal: create Task Force to resolve issue-16 and issue-36
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# AnnB eprodrom: we should have AS vocab, but make sure it's complete .. if we need to add vcard, I'm open; but let's not have multiple implementations
# kaepora Hello, I'm Nadim Kobeissi, PhD student here at INRIA :-)
# AnnB thanks Nadim
# kaepora :3
# elf-pavlik Manu Sporny uses v1 / v2 in context URIs
# eprodrom +1
# elf-pavlik -1 I see need for Task Force to resolve issue-36 and issue-16 together
# parklize +1
# AnnB arnaud asks elf to explain why he voted -1
# AnnB elf: altho we have good intentions to move on.. I anticipate problems in future from this
# AnnB ... would rather have small team explore this more deeply
# AnnB arnaud: I appreciate that ... I prefer to close it now .. and then, later, if we find we made a mistaake, then we can re-open it
# AnnB ... would that be OK?
# elf-pavlik -0.5 i don't want to block it
# cwebber2` morning
# obergix obergix is Olivier Berger from Institut Mines Telecom / Telecom SudParis, and just an observer
# obergix sandro, did you mention a proposal bout numbering a URI
# obergix ?
# kaepora I work here, if you guys need a place for lunch I can help you find a place
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# wseltzer thanks kaepora
# AnnB <taking short break>
# eprodrom cwebber2: hey
# kaepora wseltzer: It would be helpful to know of the group's dietary restrictions
# 
trackbot Created ISSUE-38 - Do we need to add a version number to the as context uri, to avoid breaking software when new terms are added?. Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/38/edit>.
# AnnB waves at cwebber2
# obergix hi cwebber2 !
# AnnB jasnell: issue 13
# wseltzer issue-13?
# elf-pavlik wishes that we had high priority issues listed prior event on agenda page and could prepare for discussing them
# obergix made a reservation at Les Terasses d'Italie just next door for lunch http://viaitaliaparis.fr/en at 12:10 Paris time
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# AnnB ... ones in there now .. were in original AS schema .. and then augmented
# AnnB ... need to reconcile against user stories, to make sure we have correct set of activities
# AnnB ... how do we refine that list, to make sure we have correct set?
# AnnB ... I think that's what Erik was getting at
# melvster1_ user stories: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_syntax/User_Stories
# AnnB arnaud: I agree; this is an open-ended question
# AnnB ... might be better to have several specific issues about specific activities
# AnnB ... therefore I suggest we close it
# eprodrom +1
# AnnB jasnell: agree
# AnnB +1
# elf-pavlik -0.5 having doubts that we all understand this issue the same way
# elf-pavlik -0 having doubts that we all understand this issue the same way
# AnnB arnaud: when we create issues, make them very specific
# AnnB ... makes it easier to deal witth them
# AnnB ... if you can take a guess at the solution, all the better
# AnnB jasnell: issue 15
# elf-pavlik I also didn't look at issue-13 for long time so have hard time to get it from hard disk to my RAM ...
# AnnB elf: explains why he thought this was a problem
# AnnB ... worried that it will be hard to change the vocabulary later
# kaepora Where can I see the current draft for the vocab/context? :-)
# eprodrom kaepora: ^^^^^
# kaepora eprodrom: Thanks
# eprodrom jasnell: oh, sorry
# eprodrom jasnell: thanks
# AnnB ... need easy way to add terms
# AnnB jasnell: nothing arbitrary about current set
# eprodrom deiu: thanks, we can go over them during the discussion tomorrow
# AnnB ... selected from existing social platforms
# AnnB ... documented in wiki
# AnnB ... we do need to refinen these to make sure they fit our user stories
# AnnB ... can use existing extensibility models
# AnnB ... we need to define minimum set
# AnnB ... not interested to define all of schema.org cases ..
# AnnB ... but yes there will be some overlap
# AnnB ... not a prob
# AnnB ... need to define minmal set for AS2
# AnnB AnnB: what's your reaction, elf?
# AnnB elf: current model says there's a way to extend ..
# AnnB ... but we don't have a way for others to use the extensions
# AnnB .... how would someone else know abouit new terms?
# AnnB ... technical way to share new terms, but not
# AnnB ...
# AnnB ... 'social way' to share
# AnnB ... I suggest the IG could work on this problem
# AnnB arnaud: but, about the spec .. you raised this issue re: the spec
# AnnB ... when I read this issue, it's kind of broad ... there are always these problems with vocabularies
# AnnB ... how is this different?
# eprodrom q+
# AnnB elf: be prepared to use existing terms, not duplicate them
# eprodrom q-
# eprodrom Sorry, phone problem
# eprodrom I'll type quickly
# AnnB dang phones!
# eprodrom I think we need to provide enough vocabulary
# eprodrom That developers can build social applications with AS 2.0
# elf-pavlik q+ re: h-card, h-event h-*
# eprodrom Especially ones that meet our user stories
# kaepora The structure of AS2 lends itself well to the inclusion of integrity and authenticity protection features. I would love to discuss these possibilities! (I work on crypto stuff)
# eprodrom A smorgasbord approach will not serve developers or users
# AnnB arnaud: we agree we nened to keep spec as minimal as possible, but large enough to support the use stories we've identified
# elf-pavlik q-
# AnnB s/nened/need/
# AnnB elf: e.g., I understand there is some conflict between IndieWeb using their terms, others using AS terms, other using other...
# AnnB aaronpk: I personally only rarely add new vocab terms
# AnnB ... I try to avoid adding new ones until I'm sure I need them
# AnnB elf: if there's overlap between terms in diff vocabs .. what do you do
# AnnB aaronpk: not sure
# eprodrom Can we come up with a proposal here?
# AnnB elf: we have 1) schema.org; 2) AS; 3) IndieWeb / microformats ... but not coordinated
# AnnB arnaud: I think elf asks we establish a general policy how to handle this
# elf-pavlik i don't mind focusing on microformats.org rather than schema.org
# AnnB jasnell: I believe we've previously decided that we will not use schema.org as a normative requirement
# AnnB .... no spec that maps microformats to json-ld
# elf-pavlik early draft: https://github.com/rhiaro/mf2rdf
# AnnB ... nor mapping of microfomats to activity models
# elf-pavlik tantek ^
# AnnB ... without anything that describes how to reliably use microformats with json-ld, I don't see how we can use it
# AnnB scribe is not sure jasnell said "use it"
# AnnB ... this seems like a vague "what if" issue, rather than concrete
# AnnB sandro: I hear, aaronpk, that you / IndieWeb folks aren't focused on interoperability
# AnnB aaronpk: I wouldn't say that
# AnnB rhiaro: I've been looking at how to model my stuff ...
# AnnB ... we've agreed to drop verbs
# elf-pavlik rhiaro++
# elf-pavlik but they use the same *verbs* ?
# elf-pavlik or Activity/Action types?
# elf-pavlik Like / like
# elf-pavlik Share / Repost share / repost
# AnnB ... I'm using "Posts" ... similar to verbs or activities
# AnnB ... I think we're talking about similar concepts, but using different terms
# AnnB ... I think there's a mapping, and I'm trying to think about that
# AnnB ... so far I have not come across anything that is not a "post"
# AnnB sandro: is it correct to refer to microformats or IndieWebCamp?
# AnnB aaronpk: microformat is a vocabulary and a context, and IndieWebCamp is a community
# elf-pavlik issue-15
# AnnB arnaud: rhiaro appears in a unique position, in that she's actually been trying to map these systems against each other
# AnnB ... so, what's your opinion rhiaro?
# AnnB sandro: I don't care about duplication, I do care about interop
# AnnB rhiaro: biggest problem is that the people see the basic models as different
# AnnB ... but I think, in the end, they are more similar than people than think
# AnnB ... but I don't know what the solution is
# AnnB ... other than try to implement and see what happens
# AnnB ... I'm trying now to post something in microformats structure
# AnnB ... next will try AS
# AnnB jasnell: IF someone wants to create a mapping; I'm all for a concrete proposal for that mapping
# AnnB ... Issue 15 is much too generic, and is not actionable
# eprodrom +1
# AnnB ... propose closing itt
# AnnB ... someone can come up with a more concrete issue
# AnnB arnaud: can you agree with this direction?
# AnnB elf: too bad Harry left the room ... because he recently proposed something similar
# AnnB ... also Tantek is not here
# AnnB ... if the Issue as stated is too blurry, it's OK to close
# AnnB +1
# eprodrom +1
# elf-pavlik -0 we currently have proposal from harry to include microformat terms in AS vocaba and/or context
# AnnB arnaud: goal is to write very specific issues, with actions that are clear
# AnnB rrsagent, make minutes
# RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/04-social-minutes.html AnnB
# eprodrom I'm going to be available from 13h -> 14h and then after 16h
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# wseltzer [lunch break]
# wseltzer jasnell, I hear noises on the stairs, so people may be returning
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# eprodrom ha ha
# elf-pavlik sandro, re _: in JSON-LD context, just in case you didn't see this closed issue: https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/36
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# elf-pavlik scribe: elf-pavlik
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: let's resume and close as many issues as we can
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# elf-pavlik ... jasnell please pick a victim
# elf-pavlik issue-16
# elf-pavlik jasnell i see it straight forward
# AnnB bblfish (Henry Story) arrives
# 
ben_thatmustbeme Zakim, aaaa is me
# ben_thatmustbeme Zakim, mute me
# AnnB waves at Ben
# elf-pavlik ... comes down if we want to split terms into core and extended
# AnnB wonders if you have twins yet?
# ben_thatmustbeme AnnB, not yet, getting close though
# elf-pavlik ... implementers will need to look in two separate places
# elf-pavlik ... i would prefer to keep it together
# eprodrom q+
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# ben_thatmustbeme can only listen in for a little right now. Will have to board a train to work in an hour and a half
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# elf-pavlik elf-pavlik: i see grammar / core needing to stay more stable & frozen while extended terms can change and evolve more
# AnnB jasnell and eprodrom get big kudos for staying up so late at night!
# elf-pavlik eprodrom: i see it fine the way it stays and deffer to jasnell
# elf-pavlik sandro: i don't know what i talk about, different namespaces or editorial?
# AnnB s/deffer/defer/
# ben_thatmustbeme yeah, that started at like 4 am this morning.... could not do that
# elf-pavlik jasnell: i see it as editorial proposal
# elf-pavlik sandro: fine to defer to editor, if we want to split namespace i would have problem
# elf-pavlik jasnell: i can separate that if you want
# eprodrom q+
# elf-pavlik elf-pavlik: grammar terms like as:object, as:actor etc. can drawn in less important terms, but i see more importance in JSON-LD contexts than editorial
# elf-pavlik eprodrom: i leave it to editor
# eprodrom +1
# elf-pavlik eprodrom: i want to see show of hands, how many people are familiar in core vs. extended classes?
# AnnB -1
# elf-pavlik + i can see diference
# melvster1_ +1
# ben_thatmustbeme +0.5 (read some of it, know what the difference is)
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# AnnB hey there bblfish
# elf-pavlik jasnell: i will take another look at it and make editorial changes to address this issue
# wseltzer heard jasnell will take another look
# eprodrom +1
# obergix zhhhhh
# elf-pavlik jasnell: few weeks we resolved that Person object represents profile
# elf-pavlik s/few weeks/few weeks ago/
# elf-pavlik elf-pavlik: ok with closing it
# elf-pavlik rhiaro_: duplicated in issue-26
# elf-pavlik issuee-26
# wseltzer issue-26?
# elf-pavlik sandro: i will repeat myself
# elf-pavlik ... most of the work in this place i consider wrong!
# elf-pavlik ... people modeling humans who don't want to be model as computers
# elf-pavlik ... existing mainstream models model accoutns
# elf-pavlik melvster1: facebook models humans
# elf-pavlik jasnell: PROPOSAL we chose just not to model people and don't define any of actual properties
# elf-pavlik jasnell: this will allow us to close issue-26 and issue-17
# elf-pavlik bblfish: i disagree with sandro, FOAF has Agent and account
# elf-pavlik ... but immaterial to questions
# elf-pavlik +1 rhiaro_
# elf-pavlik +1
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: meant PROPOSED not RESOLVED
# eprodrom +1
# elf-pavlik elf-pavlik: if someone has proposal for multiple profiles please put it out
# elf-pavlik rhiaro_: if you have profile on one site and want to move it to another site you need way to do that
# elf-pavlik ... i still work on it and can take ACTION to make counter proposal to current Profile draft
# elf-pavlik jasnell: i don't see need to have our own way to model profiles
# eprodrom q+
# elf-pavlik i opened issue-26 to decide how to model *Actions* on existing profile
# elf-pavlik jasnell: we have existing vocabs like vcard
# elf-pavlik elf-pavlik: also h-card (currently not compatible with AS2.0)
# elf-pavlik eprodrom: i understand that we have concept of a Person but would like to model that single person has more than one aspect to the world
# elf-pavlik ... my work aspect, my personal aspect, my private aspects etc.
# ben_thatmustbeme There does not really seem to be any existing system to do this (at least to me), you just create a second account
# elf-pavlik eprodrom: i see it as interesting way to do social networking but in 2016 single person maps with single acounts
# ben_thatmustbeme i mean any existing public social network that does this
# elf-pavlik ... we could put some support for it as another element ~ aspect, own by person or controlled by person
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# elf-pavlik q+ to ask parklize about sioc:UserAccount and foaf:Person
# ben_thatmustbeme I would argue we continue with a single person, but can come back to in later versions
# eprodrom Are we talking about FOAF?
# eprodrom I'm confused
# elf-pavlik bblfish: i know foaf:Person and see it vaguely defined
# eprodrom Aren't we talking about AS 2.0?
# elf-pavlik ... something about 4-dimentional time continum (scribe didn't get it ;)
# elf-pavlik ... URI reffering to the person doesn't mean always the same person
# ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro_, it can be, but I really don't think we should be concerned with adding functionality for that
# elf-pavlik ... we should keep timeline in mind
# elf-pavlik bblfish: e.g. changing jobs and any other cases
# melvster1_ foaf person can also be an 'imaginary friend'
# elf-pavlik ... where you want to move identities or have them merged
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: i have impression that issue-27 relies on resolution of issue-26
# elf-pavlik jasnell: vocabulary currently has a Person object
# elf-pavlik ... i could say that i added particular piece of information to my profile
# eprodrom as:Person as:Update as:Person
# ben_thatmustbeme then again, in indieweb, this is a matter of rel=me to my facebook account. If facebook was able to integrate directly to my site, i wouldn't need that account
# eprodrom q+
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: do you say that we don't need anything else than we have to describe person?
# ben_thatmustbeme hey cwebber2
# elf-pavlik elf-pavlik: why SIOC defines sioc:UserAccount
# elf-pavlik parklize: foaf:Person defines a person and in our perspective one has multiple accounts
# hhalpin do we have a use-case where this difference makes a difference (i.e. between account and profile)?
# elf-pavlik in SIOC we use sioc:UserAccount as *author* of a sioc:Post
# hhalpin My guess is no.
# hhalpin Until I see one.
# elf-pavlik rhiaro_: fine with not having new model but consider renaming Person to e.g. Profile
# elf-pavlik elf-pavlik: or Persona
# ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro_, couldn't hear you on the phone
# elf-pavlik +1 rename Person
# hhalpin The only use-case I can see is migrating personal profiles from one system to another and connecting them to a single person
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# elf-pavlik eprodrom: the way you think about it in AS2.0 it may seam crazy that actor operates on oneself, but for me it makes a lot of sense
# elf-pavlik elf-pavlik: BTW https://login.persona.org/
# eprodrom as:Person as:Update as:Person
# ben_thatmustbeme +1 for just "update profile"
# elf-pavlik jasnell: issue-27 asks if we need to model specific *granular* updates to profiles
# elf-pavlik q+ re: Person's profile, Organization's profile, Event's profile, Venue's profile
# ben_thatmustbeme was just about to point out API thing
# AnnB to deiu ... haha ... naptime!
# hhalpin Usually a:Person has a name and age (1983?), not a a:Profile (likely a few years old).
# elf-pavlik eprodrom: i see you point in having value about say 'this what the delta was - kim removed phone number' but keeping it simple sounds better for now - Kim updated her profile
# hhalpin It all gets pretty zen pretty quickly "Does a profile have a name?"
# AnnB q+
# hhalpin i.e. there is no correct way to do this, it's all context dependent.
# hhalpin q?
# elf-pavlik eprodrom: i don't like idea of renaming Person to Profile
# elf-pavlik ... how many of us knows the different classes?
# elf-pavlik ... if we need to represant Organization
# elf-pavlik -1
# elf-pavlik eprodrom: many add software process as actor
# AnnB q-
# hhalpin For example, cases where "profile" vs. "person" make a difference, can we just maybe do this in extensibility and not in the core Vocabulary?
# elf-pavlik bblfish: we need both Profile and Person
# ben_thatmustbeme would the ability to have "alternate person that is also me" be possible?
# hhalpin q+
# elf-pavlik you can edit profile *document* which differs from Person
# elf-pavlik bblfish: let's use FOAF
# ben_thatmustbeme if a single person in the real world has 2 accounts, they can link to their other "me"
# hhalpin ^^ Again, we've been down this rathole a few times
# eprodrom hhalpin: I agree, I think it's some fine parsing
# elf-pavlik bblfish: we can also use foaf:Person + sioc:UserAccount
# hhalpin otherewise known as a waste of time IMHO
# hhalpin exactly
# hhalpin sigh
# elf-pavlik hhalpin: we can try to design perfect vocabulary
# elf-pavlik ... but we will never agree
# elf-pavlik akuckartz++
# elf-pavlik hhalpin: where in approved user stories we need this difference
# ben_thatmustbeme agrees this is on a gravity well to range14
# elf-pavlik ... we can stay very ambiogous about real name or not
# wseltzer a person can have multiple persons, whatever we name them
# elf-pavlik ... in favor of not changing anything unless we really need it proved by use case
# hhalpin I *really* think we will never come to agreement on perfect vocabulary modeling
# hhalpin that is why we have extensibility
# ben_thatmustbeme hhalpin++
# hhalpin so, is there really a difference where we absolutely need a profile versus person difference?
# eprodrom I have to leave, unfortunately
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: do we have user story that requires making a difference
# hhalpin If it's not clear, then let's wait till we implement it and see if it becomes clear
# elf-pavlik q+ re: ask aaronpk about semantics of h-card
# AnnB s/ambiogous /ambiguous /
# hhalpin vocabulary definition discussed in abstract will go on indefinitely
# elf-pavlik jasnell: we don't need to take time to define it precisely
# elf-pavlik enough that we can say Person updated Profile
# hhalpin To be honest, I don't really care, w can add it and if no-one uses it by the time we hit CR, we delete it.
# elf-pavlik jasnell: just having possibility to mark something as profile makes sense to me
# eprodrom Thanks, all
# hhalpin yep, we need to clear it can be fake
# elf-pavlik elf-pavlik: can one person can have multiple h-cards
# hhalpin i.e. multiple personae
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: h-card doesn't represent an account since has no service associated to it
# elf-pavlik ... it vaguely represents person
# elf-pavlik elf-pavlik: what about rel="me"
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: it links URLs i can link to my twitter account which doesn't have h-card
# elf-pavlik bblfish: person Persona as superclass of person
# elf-pavlik bblfish: we already have documents with ldp:Resource so we can already distinguish people from resources
# elf-pavlik sandro: fine with keeping Person and cleaning up documentation
# elf-pavlik +0.5
# melvster1_ -1
# hhalpin "Represents an individual person." -> "Represents an entity that can be communicate, i.e. a person or a personae of a person"
# elf-pavlik deiu: can we vote on *definition* not on word?
# elf-pavlik melvster1_: the way we model thinks in FOAF community, we keep distinction between profile document and person herself
# hhalpin ^ that's my try of a definition
# elf-pavlik q+ re: to point two different issues discussed at the same time
# elf-pavlik q+ re: point two different issues discussed at the same time
# elf-pavlik q- re:
# elf-pavlik q?
# hhalpin Usually when you like a profile, it means you like a person
# hhalpin i.e. contextual ambiguity is resolved.
# elf-pavlik melvster1_: we had with tantek this coversation over time
# elf-pavlik ... i may like Rick Martin's page but not him as person
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# elf-pavlik melvster1_++
# hhalpin Yes, but another person (in fact, most people) would "like" Ricky Martin's page because they like Ricky Martin, not his CSS
# elf-pavlik deiu: can profile represent multiple people
# ben_thatmustbeme we are talking range14 but not by name
# ben_thatmustbeme can we stop
# hhalpin yep
# elf-pavlik melvster1: my profile contains me and my public key
# elf-pavlik q?
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: do we see this distinction relevant in context of AS2.0 and our user stories?
# elf-pavlik bblfish: didn't we have user story to like something so melvster1 story makes sense
# hhalpin sigh
# elf-pavlik bblfish: we can follow a person but like their personal page not them
# hhalpin anyways...
# ben_thatmustbeme hhalpin, who is chair right now?
# wseltzer q+
# hhalpin Arnaud
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: on social web we talk about following people's content not them literaly
# ben_thatmustbeme Arnaud: we could waste the entire day talking about http-range14 without using the name... but can we do something to stop that
# elf-pavlik bblfish: in the web you describe people, Cesar different than book about him
# hhalpin Again, humans resolve contextual ambiguity just fine
# elf-pavlik q?
# hhalpin machines don't.
# wseltzer q+ to suggest that we don't need to resolve this. We don't need a way to talk about abstract "Person"
# ben_thatmustbeme or at least re-poll and see if we can resolve -1's
# hhalpin Didn't we have this conversation at our last f2f?
# AnnB elf-pavlik++
# hhalpin No one realistically likes a font
# hhalpin using the "Facebook like button"
# hhalpin They've been e-mailed to this, I should update the wiki
# hhalpin s/this/list
# elf-pavlik wseltzer: we don't need to think as Persona different than Person
# kaepora is enjoying the current discussion
# hhalpin q+
# kaepora What if the profile was for a sentient AI?
# elf-pavlik hhalpin: we can add Profile and if no one uses we just remove it
# kaepora I think the current policy discriminates against sentient AI :(
# kaepora Robot rights!
# melvster1_ +1
# elf-pavlik -0.5 unless Organization, Event and Venue also can have Profile
# kaepora is just being silly :-)
# ben_thatmustbeme +1 to closing this issue
# AnnB elf draws diagram
# hhalpin If someone wants a "real individual human being not a personae" then they can use an extension vocabulary
# hhalpin I think that's a general purpose observation from tantek.
# hhalpin tantek - do you want to kill any addition of a profile?
# hhalpin Agreed
# AnnB I realize this is a complicated discussion ... but certain participants bring real-world experience that is not deserving of dismissive tones
# AnnB it
# hhalpin However, my proposal is we let them keep it, and if no-one can demonstrate running code that uses it by end of CR, then we remove it.
# hhalpin That would hold, I think, in general for *all* vocabulary items
# AnnB it's more important to achieve real consensus than to pound people into the ground
# elf-pavlik sandro: Arnaud used resolution not matching proposal!
# hhalpin RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-26, add Profile
# elf-pavlik sandro: i take it back
# ben_thatmustbeme +1 to clarication
# elf-pavlik issue-27
# elf-pavlik does adding profile solves this problem?
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# elf-pavlik Arnaud ^
# elf-pavlik jasnell: yes it solves it
# AnnB Claudio Venezia joins (Telecom Italia)
# elf-pavlik q+ re: what do we use as value of as:actor ?
# hhalpin q- hhalpin
# AnnB waves at claudio
# hhalpin I think most people can't handle httpRange-14, especially late at night
# ben_thatmustbeme hums a lullaby to jasnell
# elf-pavlik jasnell: i prefer Evan to talk about issue-31
# ben_thatmustbeme issue-33
# elf-pavlik +1
# ben_thatmustbeme +1 to move to an deprecate / move to extension
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2: i doubt we are going to remove like, just rating
# elf-pavlik q-
# ben_thatmustbeme jasnell: pronounce Tsyesika, "Jessica"
# elf-pavlik tantek++
# ben_thatmustbeme issue-34
# elf-pavlik jasnell: currently vocabulary has property *context*, intentionally vague
# elf-pavlik ... intended for you to describe context in which activity took place
# elf-pavlik +1 context dangerous to use cause of colisions
# elf-pavlik jasnell: context has a lot of meaning on itself
# elf-pavlik ... in web annotation model an annotation has motivation
# elf-pavlik tantek looking at it from what perspective?
# elf-pavlik jasnell: too late for me to describe it clearly
# ben_thatmustbeme recommends moving on from this until jasnell is awake enough to think clearly
# elf-pavlik ... we need to adapt to annotations model in AS2.0
# hhalpin I'd like to see how Web Annotation uses it - I'd kick that decision to the Web Annotations WG
# elf-pavlik jasnell: let's push it to later when i can concentrate more
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: i don't see reactions and we may need to accept that's it for today
# elf-pavlik jasnell: i appreciate all the inputs
# hhalpin +1 jasnell
# hhalpin Great job staying up!!
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: thanks you for staying all night
# elf-pavlik jasnell++
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: that's it for AS2.0 for today
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: agenda calls to talk about social API and tomorrow day ends earlier
# ben_thatmustbeme phone call is losing audio
# ben_thatmustbeme doesn't sound like anything important anyway
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: let's start discussion on protocol
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: we lost Evan, can we discuss protocol without him?
# ben_thatmustbeme i can't see that page either
# ben_thatmustbeme not sure we are supposed to aaronpk
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: we have 3 main proposals, how do we get to resolution on how do we go
# elf-pavlik ... we saw some demos already last time
# elf-pavlik ... we need to deep dive into different proposals
# elf-pavlik ... who feels ready?
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: i have documents explaining how to implement 4 user stories using indie web stack
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: let's start with it now and others can take it as inspiration
# ben_thatmustbeme needs to catch a train, will be back on in a little over an hour
# elf-pavlik aaronpk++
# elf-pavlik elf-pavlik: i will not scribe what document already explains, just reactions of others
# elf-pavlik AnnB: maybe Tsyesika could also prepare equivalent example for ActivityPump
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: at least User posts a note
# elf-pavlik melvster1: we have two concepts - direct identifiers and indirect identifiers
# AnnB not to bring up the "person" discussion ... I'm interested in whether or not that will play out in the Internet of Things
# elf-pavlik TimBL recommended avoiding use of indirect identifiers
# elf-pavlik hhalpin: acct: or mailto: identifiers identify accounts <- indirect identifiers
# elf-pavlik melvster1: facebook uses in graph protocol # identifiers
# AnnB if "person" is not necessarily a real person ... then do we need to consider this definition in light of the vast IoT complexity coming down the pike?
# AnnB (people seemed to say yes, we do)
# elf-pavlik deiu: situation looks differently when you search centralized repository
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: it changed from 2003 where people identified themselves by URL, now they even identify themselves by #hashtags
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: i'll illustrate some of the user stories with MicroPub, Webmention, Microformats and sometimes PubSubHubBub
# elf-pavlik ... User posts a note as very basic and fundamental
# AnnB protocol walk-through ....
# elf-pavlik ... Replies as very complex and representative
# hhalpin Note that the Graph API is developer-facing, not user-facing. Anyways, we should just support *any* URI scheme for identifer.
# elf-pavlik ... SWAT0 as the only one officially approved
# hhalpin Although there is not yet a URI scheme for hashtags.
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: i also leave out authentication and assume that you have *Bearer* token
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# elf-pavlik sandro: what about new line characters?
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: i need to add explaination
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: you can also return short url in header, also some people implemented slug as parameter
# elf-pavlik mp- scopes parameters as not of object that gets created
# elf-pavlik sandro: the reason you don't use PUT?
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: in general we always use GET and POST
# elf-pavlik ... more like RPC system
# elf-pavlik ... you interact with the endpoint not URL of resource you try to modify
# elf-pavlik ... it offloads work to separate system, in this case micropub endpoint
# elf-pavlik ... which one can use somewhere on separate server
# elf-pavlik bblfish: you could gave different systems which fit with your system
# elf-pavlik ... you could link also to RESTful endpoint via link relation similar as you do with rel="micropub"
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: at this point RESTful doesn't seem like a goal, especially that nowadays what people call REST actually doesn't do REST
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: what do i get when i do GET on this URL?
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: HTML with microformats
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: but you can look at parsed version
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: so your endpoint added a lot of metadata to the original entry
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: yes generated object can be quite different e.g. include published date
# elf-pavlik ... other story has minimal HTML example
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: this parsed version has microformat data extracted from HTML
# elf-pavlik ... does endpoint has full freedom in what to add / remove to the original data?
# ben_thatmustbeme Should note that some others (me) use get with url= to get the source (form encoded) object
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: you can get source of the post you intend to edit
# elf-pavlik ... rhiaro has example with using markdown and getting markdown back from endpoint
# elf-pavlik ... we try two different ways for that currently
# elf-pavlik ... if for some reason HTML didn't include content, then retrieved source still should have it
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: how does followers know that you posted something?
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: Responses example will explain it
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: we support plain forms since it makes it easy to debug and see what happens
# elf-pavlik ... all programming languages support it, even embedded devices
# elf-pavlik bblfish: i wrote a proposal to do pingback in this way
# elf-pavlik ... people really didn't like javascript at that time
# elf-pavlik bblfish: i see you trying robots interact as well as user friendly, kind of low level browsers
# elf-pavlik ... we don't want to write specs for particular vocabulary
# elf-pavlik elf-pavlik: related issue https://github.com/aaronpk/Micropub/issues/2
# elf-pavlik bblfish: how do you extend it?
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: examples aim to demonstrate user stories as precisely as i could read them
# elf-pavlik ... document exists explaining how it works in detail
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: micropub doesn't require to change anything when you want to add new terms to vocabulary
# hhalpin q+
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: for the basic case, every microformant endpoint supports h-entry content
# elf-pavlik ... my endpoint has custom support to posting food types of posts
# elf-pavlik ... but if someone uses my app other people's endpoint will not undersand it
# ben_thatmustbeme has been working on adding h-card to start work on contacts list management
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: challange is, if someone doesn't support my extension - how the app should behave ?
# elf-pavlik ... should they render everything as text etc.
# ben_thatmustbeme Cwebber. If it's not part of the standard it should be app prefixed
# elf-pavlik elf-pavlik: does challenge come with sidefects?
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: no, only that you don't know how to display it
# ben_thatmustbeme X-myapp-run
# ben_thatmustbeme As the field name
# ben_thatmustbeme I believe aaronpk uses x-p3k-food for example
# elf-pavlik sandro: that argues to post microformats, so server can just display them
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: if you understand the h-entry vocabulary then can render it
# elf-pavlik q?
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: i would like to get to the long one
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: more general conversation we can keep for later
# elf-pavlik q- hhalpin
# ben_thatmustbeme Sandro: we have had a few discussions of being able to discover support. I'm in favour of listing all types supported on a query for it
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# elf-pavlik aaronpk: cropping happens outside of those tools
# ben_thatmustbeme sorry my client autocompletes with : and I miss it sometimes especially on mobile
# elf-pavlik ... design based on microformats vocabulary where photo gets put in *photo* property
# AnnB aaronpk: this is essentially an example of how to do a post with non-text content in Micropub
# elf-pavlik ... disclaimer in practice no one write that multipart noise by hand, libraries do that!
# elf-pavlik sandro: we can attach simple html5 app showing how to do that or at least curl commands
# elf-pavlik bblfish: why do we need to have it standarized?
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: interesting point and it relates to capabilities discovery
# elf-pavlik data shapes ? ;)
# elf-pavlik bblfish: do you want robots to read forms, while nowadays people do it
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: h-entry means "I want to make a post" ?
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: if you don't add publish date it will use current date
# elf-pavlik ... if you want to name a photo you just add another parameter
# hhalpin q?
# hhalpin q+
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: i've learned that those user stories stay vague and we need to clarify them
# elf-pavlik elf-pavlik: ISSUES please in https://github.com/w3c-social/social-ucr
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: it doesn't matter where endpoint stores the photo! it can upload it to S3 bucket whatever
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: so it creates two resources 1) with binary 2) with information about photo
# elf-pavlik elf-pavlik: please see https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/MediaObject
# ben_thatmustbeme elf-pavlik i'll try to capture our issue with responses story being unclear in one way when I get to the office
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: endpoints can do whatever they like with the photo
# elf-pavlik ... response doesn't give you URL to encoding .jpg but you can GET the resouce and find it in HTML+Microformats
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: it touches point PUT versus POST
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: you can't put to photo URL since it can have different credentials which only endpoint can use
# elf-pavlik elf-pavlik: we can think of h= as type=
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: you could also use mp-h=
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: h = upside down micro symbol - Microformats
# elf-pavlik ... mp-h= could make more sense since you don't use it in your content
# ben_thatmustbeme uses mp-type to further clarify type of post (note, checkin, etc. Though that Might be better as mp-btmb-type now)
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: SWAT-0
# elf-pavlik i changed names to use names of people participating in IndieWeb community
# 
cwebber2 those are all from "entirely positive" https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/Sorting_user_stories
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2, as sandro reminded me use , not : after username our it causes confusion in the logs
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: we use the same property *category* as we would use for text tags
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: i wish we would name it just *tag*
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: but in this case you use person URL as value instead of string
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2 mine too (quassel)
# elf-pavlik sandro: does people assume that @aaronpk means twitter username?
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: in a way, it got sindicated to twitter and than mentioned person corectly
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: where did the endpoint got "People" information from?
# elf-pavlik q+
# ben_thatmustbeme My test of tagging tantek
# elf-pavlik elf-pavlik: you could have more specific property which would imply value a person
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: please consider this as early exploration with person tagging
# elf-pavlik cwebber2: first of all THANK YOU A LOT aaronpk - very helpful!
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# ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk++
# elf-pavlik ... i know you didn't prepare but can you comment on those stories?
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: let's wait for aaronpk to finish with this story
# elf-pavlik q-
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2, give me 20 minutes to get to the office and I may be able to
# ben_thatmustbeme Several of them are not worked out yet. But I have some ideas for sure
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: we can't assume that Barnaby goes to Bent's site to see the photo
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: this story didn't have act of starting following but other story has it
# elf-pavlik micropub non content property AFAIU
# elf-pavlik tantek ^
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: step 5 - most attempts in SWAT0 failed here
# elf-pavlik ... the saddle thing ... i need to loo at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/federatedsocialweb/wiki/SWAT0
# elf-pavlik ... tantek didn't subscribed to ben but he still received notification
# elf-pavlik q+ re: assumptions about responsibilities of servers and clients (yes plural editor apps and reader apps)
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# elf-pavlik hhalpin: people tried to do that with Salmon but possibly only Evan and one more person ever implemented it
# hhalpin notes the prior art is here:
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: mentions difference between tagging on the photo or mention in the post
# hhalpin http://www.salmon-protocol.org/
# hhalpin It doesn't do the summarizes, but. it worries about distributing and re-distributing comments, ordering, etc
# hhalpin q+
# elf-pavlik obergix: you can't comment on the photo and you could get ddosed
# AnnB I appreciate aaronpk's articulate aand calm presentation and answering of questions
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: Responses gave me really good exercise, i encourage everyone to try implementing it!
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: I find Inbox stream loaded term and sounding pump.io specific
# elf-pavlik ... explains PubSubHubBub
# ben_thatmustbeme Zakim, mute me
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: need to write not explaining how we know that we deal with like
# elf-pavlik can someone make issue in github? but just one person and please say you'll do it here so others won't duplicate!
# elf-pavlik i'll do it :)
# ben_thatmustbeme elf-pavlik, ambiguity of the "and others" was what I was talking about the confusion on
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro, "<Zakim> -INRIA" i'm gone
# elf-pavlik someone listened on VoIP?
# elf-pavlik cwebber2
# elf-pavlik ben_thatmustbeme?
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2, the conference just closed, sandro is working to fix it
# wseltzer zakim, call INRIA-bridge
# ben_thatmustbeme elf-pavlik 401 305 was me
# kaepora Hey everyone, what's the plan until dinner?
# ben_thatmustbeme Zakim, mute me
# kaepora (Sorry, I'm at my office downstairs)
# ben_thatmustbeme oh... i'm getting some error audio
# ben_thatmustbeme Zakim, unmute me
# ben_thatmustbeme i tried
# ben_thatmustbeme yes
# ben_thatmustbeme Zakim, unmute me
# ben_thatmustbeme Zakim, unmute me
# ben_thatmustbeme Zakim, mute me
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: we talk about notifying others about like
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro, I can hear you, couldn't talk
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2, https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#Following_a_person is currently done in a reader. I want to move the list of who to follow in to users own sites (a following list) then use micropub to create an entry with h=card&mp-action=follow&url=<feed url>
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2, https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#Reading_a_user.27s_recent_posts does not need micropub, thats just polling the person's feed url (parse microformats if its in some sort of reader perhaps)
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# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2, https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#Share_content_with_single_individuals aaronpk has already been able to do this, when he posts the note it does he sets private entity, i don't know if he does that through micropub, i dont' think so. but could be, and would be cool. if he shares a note with me, it needs to be given an auth token when polling / viewing to know its me, then its just a matter of notifying (webmention
# ben_thatmustbeme but when it polls it will get Denied, so it tries again with auth token, now it knows its private)
# elf-pavlik ACTION: pelf to draw Follow vs. Subscribe with account having multiple feeds allowing subscription independently
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2, on that one check out http://indiewebcamp.com/indieweb-messaging
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# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2, finally on http://indiewebcamp.com/indieweb-messaging this is just a reader really (push consumer)
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: we don't follow REST here...
# ben_thatmustbeme some parts of that one not worked out there
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: tweeter just implemented "quoted" tweet
# ben_thatmustbeme s/tweeter/twitter/
# elf-pavlik ... facebook has share button and let's you add extra content
# cwebber2 ben_thatmustbeme: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#Reading_a_user.27s_recent_posts as being done by just reading an rss/atom feed also doesn't work with private communication though
# elf-pavlik elf-pavlik: could you use share-of property?
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: we need to gather more experience for that
# elf-pavlik elf-pavlik: facebook show shares of post
# elf-pavlik obergix: if i share privately it works differently
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: no stories include private content so far
# elf-pavlik sandro: i would like my site to make a copy of it
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber, think of it more as private messaging being direct messaging in twitter or message in FB. they never appear in streams
# hhalpin q?
# ben_thatmustbeme but you can always pass an auth key and the persons feed could include any posts you are allowed to see
# hhalpin q+
# obergix applauses
# elf-pavlik aaronpk: stories need some clarifications before freezing them
# elf-pavlik q?
# elf-pavlik q+ re: responsibilities of servers and clients (yes plural e.g. content editors and readers/browsers)
# ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2 any chance of configuring your client to use , not : ? I couldn't find a setting for me in quassel
# ben_thatmustbeme dropped due to bad network :(
# elf-pavlik deiu ^ we can go from top
# elf-pavlik Arnaud: we can write same as aaronpk did so we can compare them side by side
# ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk, cwebber2 and i ask how long of a break is this?
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# ben_thatmustbeme Zakim, mute me
# eprodrom Are we on break?
# eprodrom Gotcha
# eprodrom So what'd I miss?
# eprodrom Are we doing all Turtle now?
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom, have a quck question for you for now
# eprodrom OK
# eprodrom cwebber2: great
# eprodrom ben_thatmustbeme: shoot
# eprodrom (metaphorically)
# eprodrom Assuming that you mean "quick" and not some word I don't know.
# ben_thatmustbeme pulling up.. one sec, it was a clarification on a user story you created
# eprodrom Oh, cool.
# ben_thatmustbeme on part 2, "and others" meaning Ben's followers or alexa's followers?
# eprodrom ben_thatmustbeme: yeah, good question
# eprodrom At least Ben's followers
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# eprodrom Probably also the audience for Alexa's video
# ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom, aaronpk and I were going back and forth on how to model that, i figured ben's followers, which meant a "like" post, but the other can be done from PuSH
# eprodrom ben_thatmustbeme: It's a tricky problem
# eprodrom aaronpk: yes, and like I said it would definitely be Ben's followers and probably the audience for Alexa's video
# eprodrom aaronpk: the second is much harder
# eprodrom q+
# elf-pavlik q?
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# elf-pavlik eprodrom go ahead :)
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# hhalpin q+
# AnnB I'm not a developer .. so you guys should say if that's hard or not
# eprodrom q+
# elf-pavlik q+ to shortly mention not obvious *advantage* of using URIs for vocab terms which comes of advantage in decentralized deoployments
# AnnB on airplanes we try to reduce the numbers of shims
# eprodrom !!!
# eprodrom AnnB: in software, too
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# AnnB extensibility seems important to me
# AnnB and ditto interoperability
# eprodrom That is a great way to put it
# AnnB but maybe that's nirvana and not realistic
# AnnB +1 from my company
# AnnB q+
# eprodrom Isn't that why we have standards groups?
# ben_thatmustbeme "still not collide with other people accidentally" can be difficult to say for certain depending on how the extensabiilty is done, but its good to get it as rare as possible, x-p3k-food will be very unlikely for someone else to use p3k prefix on things
# eprodrom That's what namespaces are for
# eprodrom q?
# ben_thatmustbeme yes, but then namespaces have to be something centrally controlled, (url) etc
# eprodrom ben_thatmustbeme: Yes, URLs are "centralized", but that's pretty reasonable to deal with
# eprodrom DNS is about as distributed as it's possible to do
# ben_thatmustbeme p3k is a namespace, but its just defined by the user, without need to any sort of namespace specifically defined
# elf-pavlik q?
# ben_thatmustbeme it was done to keep simple, like css prefixing
# AnnB aaronpk: example: in extending new things for my food postings, I prefix them with p3k- to make sure to distinquish those from anyone else's extensions
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# AnnB yo, shepazu!
# 
sandro sandro: we could do p3k.food or io.p3k.food or http://p3k.io/food
# elf-pavlik coupling with microformats issue - https://github.com/aaronpk/Micropub/issues/2
# ben_thatmustbeme would be sad if the baby is thrown out with the bathwater
# hhalpin q+
# AnnB q-
# ben_thatmustbeme s/subjhect/subject/
# ben_thatmustbeme google CREATED rdfa, so thats something of a questionable source
# ben_thatmustbeme no, wait, that was schema
# ben_thatmustbeme shuts up
# ben_thatmustbeme rdfa i have seen a lot in academic places, library sciences seemed to use it a lot, as well as other standards too
# ben_thatmustbeme as far a "social" data though, i know twitter has started to add microformats in to in user profile queries. apparently thats thanks to Known requesting it
# eprodrom No
# eprodrom Tsyesika will
# eprodrom Sorry, thought that was clear
# eprodrom happy to contribute though!
# ben_thatmustbeme thinks F2F thunderdome
# melvster1_ q+
# ben_thatmustbeme nothing stops a person from having multiple feeds, one for "boxing" that other boxing fans could follow
# Loqi Hhalpin made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83991&oldid=83982
# Loqi Hhalpin made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17-minutes]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83992&oldid=0
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro, i don't think so, but we haven't really tackled groups at all yet, other than tagging multiple people in a "group". Its difficult to get anywhere without some single owner to a group who is in charge of the feed
# ben_thatmustbeme sandro, more of thinking out loud of possibilities
# 
aaronpk like how a bunch of us are in the "indienews" group if we subscribe to http://news.indiewebcamp.com/
# ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk, maybe just aggregator from set list of people "joined" to the group, looking for anything in a certain category
# ben_thatmustbeme audio is in and out for me, so I have to go my chat logs to fill in the spaces
# ben_thatmustbeme s/:/,/
# AnnB s/we will do things outside the firewall with this/I anticipate we will use these technologies with our supply chain (outside firewall) /
# elf-pavlik issue-15
# eprodrom I'm lost
# ben_thatmustbeme is really interested in doing h-activity, would be interesting
# eprodrom What are we talking about?
# eprodrom q?
# eprodrom rhiaro_++
# eprodrom Thanks for scribing
# eprodrom Thanks for everything everyone
# wseltzer rrsagent, make minutes
# RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/04-social-minutes.html wseltzer
# ben_thatmustbeme waves
# wseltzer trackbot, end meeting
# RRSAgent I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/04-social-minutes.html trackbot
# RRSAgent I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2015/05/04-social-actions.rdf :
# wseltzer zakim, drop INRIA
# Loqi Hhalpin made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17-minutes]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83993&oldid=83992
# wseltzer thanks to those who joined remotely!
# tantek anyone looking at this should start with https://www.w3.org/wiki/Activity_Streams/Microformats_Mapping
# hhalpin 1 Rue du Moulinet
# 
oshepherd shepazu: Actually, theres a problem even without any changes to the official context: Suppose system A produces a document with custom term "foo" in its' context, and system B produces another document with custom term "bar" in its' context. Both of these pass on their documents to System C, which is a pure JSON implementation. System C is trying to merge these two documents into one (say, a collection). It can't do this without performing JSON-LD
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# ben_thatmustbeme excellent film
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