#social 2015-05-05

2015-05-05 UTC
rhiaro_, rhiaro__, akuckartz and Arnaud joined the channel
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sandro
trackbot, start meeting
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trackbot
is preparing a teleconference.
RRSAgent joined the channel
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trackbot
RRSAgent, make logs public
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RRSAgent
I have made the request, trackbot
Zakim joined the channel
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trackbot
Zakim, this will be SOCL
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Zakim
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
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trackbot
Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot
Date: 05 May 2015
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sandro
zakim, room for 10 for 600 minutes?
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Zakim
sorry, sandro; could not schedule an adhoc conference; passcode overlap; if you do not have a fixed code you may try again
tantek joined the channel
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sandro
zakim, move 26631 here
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Zakim
I don't understand 'move 26631 here', sandro
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sandro
zakim, move conference 26631 here
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Zakim
I don't understand 'move conference 26631 here', sandro
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sandro
zakim, help
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Zakim
Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot for more detailed help.
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Zakim
Some of the commands I know are:
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Zakim
xxx is yyy - establish yyy as the name of unknown party xxx
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Zakim
if yyy is 'me' or 'I', your nick is substituted
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Zakim
xxx may be yyy - establish yyy as possibly the name of unknown party xxx
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Zakim
I am xxx - establish your nick as the name of unknown party xxx
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Zakim
xxx holds yyy [, zzz ...] - establish xxx as a group name and yyy, etc. as participants within that group
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Zakim
xxx also holds yyy - add yyy to the list of participants in group xxx
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Zakim
who's here? - lists the participants on the phone
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Zakim
who's muted? - lists the participants who are muted
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Zakim
mute xxx - mutes party xxx (like pressing 61#)
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Zakim
unmute xxx - reverses the effect of "mute" and of 61#
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Zakim
is xxx here? - reports whether a party named like xxx is present
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Zakim
list conferences - reports the active conferences
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Zakim
this is xxx - associates this channel with conference xxx
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Zakim
excuse us - disconnects from the irc channel
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Zakim
I last learned something new on $Date: 2013-03-03 19:18:47 $
parklize joined the channel
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sandro
zakim, move conf1 to here
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Zakim
sandro, I see Team_(socwg)07:29Z in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be conf1".
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sandro
zakim, this will be conf1
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Zakim
ok, sandro; I see Team_(socwg)07:29Z scheduled to start 2 minutes ago
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sandro
zakim, this will be Team_(socwg)
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Zakim
ok, sandro; I see Team_(socwg)07:29Z scheduled to start 3 minutes ago
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cwebber2
morning, ish
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Arnaud
trackbot, start meeting
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trackbot
is preparing a teleconference.
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trackbot
RRSAgent, make logs public
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RRSAgent
I have made the request, trackbot
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trackbot
Zakim, this will be SOCL
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Zakim
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
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trackbot
Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot
Date: 05 May 2015
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cwebber2
the "ish" is that it's 2:30am here, I'm barely awake
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sandro
zakim, this will be Team_(socwg)
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Zakim
ok, sandro; I see Team_(socwg)07:29Z scheduled to start 3 minutes ago
claudio joined the channel
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Arnaud
zakim, who's on the phone?
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Zakim
Team_(socwg)07:29Z has not yet started, Arnaud
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Zakim
On IRC I see claudio, parklize, tantek, Zakim, RRSAgent, Arnaud, akuckartz, KevinMarks, shepazu, cwebber2, kaepora, deiu, elf-pavlik, Loqi, wilkie, melvster1, oshepherd, rhiaro,
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Zakim
... aaronpk, kylewm, Tsyesika, mattl, ElijahLynn, JakeHart, bret, bigbluehat, ben_thatmustbeme, dwhly, trackbot, sandro, wseltzer
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sandro
cwebber2, are you calling into Zakim? The conference code is 26631 today
bblfish joined the channel
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Arnaud
cwebber, are you calling in?
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tantek
good morning #social web WG! again, lurking today, in another meeting all day.
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sandro
When the INRIA conference system answers the phone (in French) can you enter the conference code 23695487# ?
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sandro
Zakim, call INRIA-bridge
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Zakim
ok, sandro; the call is being made
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Zakim
Team_(socwg)07:29Z has now started
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Zakim
+INRIA
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sandro
zakim, drop inria
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Zakim
INRIA is being disconnected
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Zakim
Team_(socwg)07:29Z has ended
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Zakim
Attendees were INRIA
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Zakim
Team_(socwg)07:29Z has now started
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sandro
Zakim, call INRIA-bridge
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Zakim
ok, sandro; the call is being made
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Zakim
+[IPcaller]
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Zakim
+INRIA
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Zakim
-[IPcaller]
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Arnaud
bridges are connected
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aaronpk
scribenick: aaronpk
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cwebber2
Arnaud: I am
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cwebber2
give me a minute
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aaronpk
Arnaud: plan for today is to go through two more APIs, activitypump and SoLiD
rhiaro_ joined the channel
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cwebber2
hey Arnaud it says
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cwebber2
"the conference is restricted at this time"
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aaronpk
Tsyesika: user posts a note
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aaronpk
posting a note to the outbox, you submit a Post activity with an object of a Note, sent to "followers"
melvser1 joined the channel
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aaronpk
the server returns the entire activity with the note back, and it's added the author and publish date, and the ID of the activity and the object
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aaronpk
Sandro: do you need the @type collection on the "to" object? Yes
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cwebber2
ok, I can't dial in since the conference is restricted, so I'll just follow via text
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sandro
cwebber2, what conference code did you use?
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cwebber2
sandro: SOCL
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aaronpk
Tsyesika: the API requires you to specify the type, we could see about removing the requirement
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sandro
ah, sorry, but it's 26631 today
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Zakim
+??P0
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aaronpk
...to "to" is specifying the audience, not adding something to the collection, different from it being the target
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cwebber2
Zakim, ??P0 is me
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Zakim
+cwebber2; got it
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aaronpk
...the server would lok at everyone you sent it to (the followers), and send it out to the inbox of everyone in the followers collection
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sandro
cwebber2, can you hear Jessica?
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cwebber2
yeah, it's a bit faint but I can follow
AnnB joined the channel
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sandro
yeah, she's mostly facing the screen, which is facing away from you
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aaronpk
... there are two URLs involved here, the user's outbox "feed" and the "followers"
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cwebber2
sandro: no worries, it's sufficient
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aaronpk
Q: is this like access control?
akuckartz_ joined the channel
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aaronpk
Tsyesika: kind of, it's audience targeting but if the account is private then it acts as access control
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aaronpk
Arnaud: can you tell us about the backend of distributing to the followers?
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aaronpk
Tsyesika: it iterates through all the followers asynchronously and sends the full activity object to the inbox of everyone
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aaronpk
Arnaud: so there are two resources that got created, one for the note itself, and one for the acitvity
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aaronpk
Tsyesika: for updating a note, you specify the same note object but there's a new activity ID
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cwebber2
it's like email and collections are like email lists
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aaronpk
sandro: if the following collection changes tomorrow, who has access to the previous notes?
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aaronpk
Tsyesika: if I were to write the spec now, it would be available to the people who were in the collection at the time it was posted
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aaronpk
sandro: so I could update the note and send the update to a different set of people?
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aaronpk
Tsyesika: i don't think this is specified either
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aaronpk
elf-pavlik: i'll make an issue for clarifying the ACL
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aaronpk
Tsyesika: deletion, creating a deletion activity specifying the ID of the note
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aaronpk
... a shell of the note remains at the original URL, which includes the deleted date. i'm going to open an issue to remove the publish/update dates from the deleted note
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aaronpk
... the delete activity becomes activity 3
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aaronpk
next story: following a person
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bblfish
what's the URL
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sandro
(To be more specific, the ACL issue is: how do the acls of a Note related to the recipient lists of the various activities which create/update that note)
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cwebber2
fyi it's totally cutting in and out so if someone addresss me I won't hear it
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wseltzer
cwebber2 should we try moving the phone?
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cwebber2
wseltzer: might help
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cwebber2
we're entering into a user story I wrote up last night without being able to coordinate with Tsyesika
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cwebber2
and some of this behavior is different than the pump api
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wseltzer
cwebber2, any better?
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cwebber2
a bit I think
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aaronpk
Arnaud: the first step was the act of following, the second was the distribution of adding an activity?
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aaronpk
Tsyesika: Delano posts a "follow" activity to his server with an object of Beth
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cwebber2
explicit side-effect in the spec
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aaronpk
elf-pavlik: what side effects does this have? it's a delivery mechanism and also changing the collection
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aaronpk
Tsyesika: it's an explicit effect
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aaronpk
... this is acitivtypump specific
claudio joined the channel
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Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
... the server needs to know the "inbox" endpoint for beth, so it can go discover the endpoints
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Arnaud
ack cwebber
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
cwebber2: btw some of this has changed from the pump API to activitypump at the request of the group, including the jsonld embedded in the HTML
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aaronpk
... one of the options we discussde was whether we should embed jsonld into the html, but there are other options, we could embed microformats or rdfa into the document
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aaronpk
... so we have not actually made decisions on this
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aaronpk
... were previously using webfinger but the group decided not tu ose webfinger
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aaronpk
Tsyesika: so this is still an open issue for doing the URL discovery
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aaronpk
... so now you can make a post to their inbox
AnnB joined the channel
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aaronpk
aaronpk: can you clarify the "public" id in the "to"
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aaronpk
Tsyesika: this is a special URL that means the public collection
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cwebber2
well, and
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cwebber2
the target stuff is still in the editor's draft has to: cc: bcc:
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cwebber2
it hasn't dropped that yet
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cwebber2
for activitystreams 2
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cwebber2
but I think we're willing to move with the group
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cwebber2
it doesn't seem like it's gelled yet, even in the document
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aaronpk
Tsyesika: pump.io uses primary and secondary audiences extensively, so i'm skeptical of getting rid of them
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aaronpk
elf-pavlik: what's the difference with using "to" and specifying a secondary audience, vs just using target
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aaronpk
Tsyesika: having a "to" of the public URL is essentially saying it's not to anyone, it's to everyone
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cwebber2
elf-pavlik: it's pubsubhubbub style
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cwebber2
it's not polling
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cwebber2
it's push
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cwebber2
you *can* pull
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aaronpk
elf-pavlik: so why use the "to: inbox" why not just "target: my outbox"
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aaronpk
Tsyesika: mainly because this is how all audience targeting works to avoid a special case for this
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cwebber2
elf-pavlik, public collections are a "special collection", there could be a different convention to have the stream
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cwebber2
but the convention is currently deliver to collections or users
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aaronpk
bblfish: so the problem is in this case, the "id" is not derefencable so the code needs to special-case this all the time
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aaronpk
Tsyesika: that's true
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aaronpk
...okay now this is delano looking at his inbox, he sees the post made by beth of the image, and presumably more activities below
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aaronpk
... unfollowing someone, they make another acitivty to their outbox, delano unfollowing beth
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aaronpk
.. the object is the person, send to beth and cc the public URL
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cwebber2
wseltzer: btw the call quality is much better now
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aaronpk
Tsyesika: there is a suggestion for using the "undo" activity with the object of the activity you want to undo
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aaronpk
... so in this case the user is removed from the followers collection
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aaronpk
bblfish: in some ways there's a similarity between micropub, which is that this is also not restful
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aaronpk
Tsyesika: we do specify an alternative way of doing this, you do a PUT to any object
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aaronpk
... and has a side effect of generating the update activity
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cwebber2
we had PUT and DELETE and removed it on feedback
timbl joined the channel
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aaronpk
... in some reasearch evan did, most people were posting activities
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aaronpk
... but we do make allowances for that in the specification
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cwebber2
evan looking into it was also partly prompted by tantek requesting possibly dropping it down to GET/POST only
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wseltzer
cwebber2, good to hear!
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aaronpk
... 1. finding more content from an author
eprodrom joined the channel
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cwebber2
activitypump is the socialwg iteration of the pump api ;)
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cwebber2
hey eprodrom !
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eprodrom
indeed
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aaronpk
... looking at the inbox. this is where activitypump diverges from pump.io
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aaronpk
... pumpio has a specific comment type, so when you're posting a reply you're posting a comment, which is like a note
hhalpin joined the channel
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aaronpk
... but in activitypump we don't have a comment type, you just post any object, and add an inReplyTo
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eprodrom
What
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eprodrom
That's not true
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tantek
interesting about no explicit comment type!
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Arnaud
zakim, who's on the phone?
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Zakim
On the phone I see INRIA, cwebber2
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eprodrom
Arnaud: I thought we were starting at 9:30 this morning again
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rhiaro_
eprodrom: can you clarify what's not true?
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hhalpin
evanpro - the Zakim code is: 26631
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Arnaud
we did
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eprodrom
pump.io API doesn't require a specific type
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eprodrom
hhalpin: thanks
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eprodrom
But OK
bblfish joined the channel
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Arnaud
9:30 was 1h ago
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eprodrom
Ah great
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eprodrom
My bad
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aaronpk
Tsyesika: I apologize to evan if I made a mistake
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hhalpin
ok, regardless ActivityPump does have quite a few differences - evanpro, you may want to list them.
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hhalpin
In particular, re dependencies on the rest of the "Ostatus" stack
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eprodrom
Really?
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AnnB
Tseysika invites eprodrom to clarify
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eprodrom
Which, about the comment type?
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hhalpin
and clarify at some point what you think is crucial to keep and what dependencies you could live without. For example, didn't Google stop producing webfinger?
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aaronpk
Tsyesika: you can if you wish to a GET on the user's outbox to see the activities they've done which is what's in this example
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cwebber2
eprodrom: what are you objecting to?
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cwebber2
that's where you should comment :)
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eprodrom
Will do
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AnnB
dang time zones!
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aaronpk
... those are the user stories we got done last night, hopefully that gives you an idea
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cwebber2
Tsyesika++
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Loqi
Tsyesika has 9 karma
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aaronpk
Arnaud: are there any more questions?
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aaronpk
... it seems that access control is a big difference
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Zakim
+eprodrom
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elf-pavlik
Arnaud: looks like IndieWeb doesn't have ACL - looking at ActivityPump approach
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elf-pavlik
aaronpk: we experiment with with it and it may work similar to ActivityPump
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elf-pavlik
aaronpk: sending private not has some experiments but we still work on it
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elf-pavlik
elf-pavlik: public content seems focus so far in IndieWe
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cwebber2
elf-pavlik: it's not using pubsubhubbub
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cwebber2
it's push-style
hhalpin_ joined the channel
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hhalpin_
q+
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Zakim
sees hhalpin_ on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
cwebber2: pubsubhubbub is push-style, not sure what you mean
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aaronpk
(that was me saying that, not cwebber2 oops)
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cwebber2
aaronpk, right, I meant that it's push-style *like* pubsubhubbub, but it isn't *using* pubsubhubbib, sorry
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cwebber2
aaronpk, that was the clarification I meant
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aaronpk
(cool thanks)
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aaronpk
bblfish: can you describe posting a photo
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aaronpk
Tsyesika: you submit the file with the image content type, you get back the image ID
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aaronpk
...then you can submit an activity with the photo object
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eprodrom
q+
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Zakim
sees hhalpin_, eprodrom on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
...i'm not thrilled about having several requests, I like how indieweb did it where you submit just one request with all the metadata you want
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aaronpk
... we don't have any provisions right now for specifying a title when uploading the photo right now, so you have to do it in multiple requests
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Zakim
sees hhalpin_, eprodrom on the speaker queue
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Arnaud
ack hhalpin_
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Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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elf-pavlik
q+ re: sidefects
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Zakim
sees eprodrom, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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Zakim
sees eprodrom, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
hhalpin_: quick note on the ACL point, I thought we had some stories about access control, but maybe not ones that we all agreed on had it
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aaronpk
... so it would be great to get it working, but if we can't even get public working then we shouldn't do access control
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aaronpk
... So in terms of activiitypump, it's nice that it's the one that's closest that maps to AS2.0
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aaronpk
... if you're looking to converge with the indieweb aapproach, what is your take on the form encoding
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aaronpk
Tsyesika: there's lots of nested stuff, but they get around it by posting stuff individualyand referencing it by ID
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aaronpk
... that'd work, but i'm not huge on making lots of requests
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aaronpk
... i'm not necessarily against form encoding, but JSON has its merits, and especially JSONLD given its extensibility
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eprodrom
I have the answer, call on me
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Arnaud
ack eprodrom
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Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
eprodrom: it's entirely possible, we had a mechanism in pump.io to include the image in the json encoded upload
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Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, bblfish on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
... it's less popular because you have to do some encoding in the JSON upload, so people like the double post more often
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hhalpin_
I'm trying to map the "big" differences and see where we can get consensus on the larger whole.
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aaronpk
... i'd also point out that the double-post mechanism comes from the atompub protocol
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Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, bblfish, aaronpk on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
eprodrom: there is a mechanism in pump.io that didn't make it into activitypump, to encode a binary object in JSON, so if it's needed we can pull it over
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aaronpk
... the other option is the double post mechanism
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Arnaud
ack elf-pavlik
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Zakim
elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss sidefects
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Zakim
sees bblfish, aaronpk on the speaker queue
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cwebber2
elf-pavlik: it could be viewed in an RDF type graph as well that's probably true
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cwebber2
what happens if you follow, unfollow, follow?
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aaronpk
elf-pavlik: posting the as:follow activity has the side effect of adding the :follows edge
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hhalpin_
Arnaud, you may want to mention the IBM testing effort for ActivityStreams about now
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eprodrom
elf-pavlik: is the point that we'd have to test the behaviour?
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aaronpk
...you could make an automated test
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eprodrom
q?
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Zakim
sees bblfish, aaronpk on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
Tsyesika: when you submit a folow activity, twot hings happne. the activity is federated to the audience, and the user is added to the followers collection
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aaronpk
... so in the future, when you post to the followers collection as the audience, it will also federate to the new person
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hhalpin_
What is difficult about testing the side-effects (i.e. input->outputs)?
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aaronpk
eprodrom: i think elf's point is that we don't have all those side effects listed out under the follow activity
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aaronpk
... we should probably do that for each of these activities
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hhalpin_
+1 be clearer about the input/outputs but bugs will be worked out in test-suite
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eprodrom
"The Follow activity is used to subscribe to the activities of another user. Once the user has followed a user, activities shared with the Follows of that user SHOULD be added to the actors's inbox."
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Arnaud
ack bblfish
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Zakim
sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
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aaronpk
bblfish: LDP also doesn't know how to do multiple files in one go
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cwebber2
multiple files is an interesting motivation for the file endpoint
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cwebber2
I hadn't realized that bit
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aaronpk
... couldn't activithypump also use multipart uploads?
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aaronpk
Arnaud: currently LDP1.0 spec doesn't talk abotu how to optimize this kind of operation, you have to deal with every resource independelty
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aaronpk
.. there have been discussions about how to optimize the traffic
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aaronpk
... there was some ealier draft that allowed it, there were questions about the details, so we took it out, now it's on the wishlist
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Zakim
-eprodrom
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aaronpk
... we just discussed the priority items for LDP, it was selected to allow that for the read, but not for the write
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aaronpk
... it's not clear that the next version will allow to post multiple things inthe same operation
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aaronpk
timbl: we could take input from here
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Loqi
timbl has 3 karma
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aaronpk
Arnaud: people are welcome to express their opinion here whether that's a priority
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Zakim
+eprodrom
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Arnaud
ack aaronpk
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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rhiaro_
elf-pavlik I'll scribe
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elf-pavlik
aaronpk: i want to talk about Harrys question about convergence of APIs
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rhiaro_
aaronpk: I wanted to talk about quesiton of converging apis
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Zakim
-eprodrom
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rhiaro_
... Bigger difference than form encoding
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bblfish
yes @sandro but there is also the list of 6 items that are being proposed for LDP next charter. that is more important
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rhiaro_
... In activitypump you're always creating an activity that references an object, but in micropub you only create an object and no explicity activity
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Zakim
+ +1.514.525.aaaa
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rhiaro_
... trying to make those match up is more than dealing with nested objects
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cwebber2
aaronpk, I think you are right on that analysis
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Zakim
- +1.514.525.aaaa
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rhiaro_
... it would take something like making micropub create activities vs objects, or having the activitypump api create the activities as a side effect of the object, rather than explicitly creating activities
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sandro
bblfish, sure, it's all up to there ACTUALLY being a sufficient community to do this.
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rhiaro_
harry: do developers find it easier to work with activities or objects directly?
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rhiaro_
aaronpk: from what I've seen creating objects directly has been extremely straightfoward
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rhiaro_
... but i haven't talked to a lot of people who are creating activitystreams posts
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eprodrom
q+
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Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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rhiaro_
Tsyesika: a matter of personal preference
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rhiaro_
... activities are subject verb object type things
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rhiaro_
... like Tsyesika posts Image
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Zakim
+eprodrom
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bblfish
yes, indeed but there should be a list of approved stories, so that those who are do not see their story in the wishlist, can at least drum up support :-) Ie. we need a diff
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elf-pavlik
q+ re: shortly lon side effects in MicroPub, ActivityPump and LDP
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Zakim
sees eprodrom, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
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rhiaro_
... activities very much how yo'd construct a sentence
timbl joined the channel
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rhiaro_
... It's not too difficult for developers to work with activities. Just personal preference, one isn't easier or harder
#
eprodrom
Hey, the conference bridge is a mess
#
eprodrom
Am I the only one who can't hear anything, cwebber2 ?
#
bblfish
yes, indeed but there should be a list of approved LDP next desires, so that those who are do not see their desire in the LDP next, can at least drum up support :-) Ie. we need a diff
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: it's been the hard the whole time, believe it or not it's better than it was ;\
#
rhiaro_
Arnaud: aaron's point is that the significat difference between the two approaches is activities are implied and maybe reconstructed if you need to, whereas here they're explicitly stated and created as independant resources
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom
Oh
#
Arnaud
ack eprodrom
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom
Hi
#
eprodrom
Developers overwhelmingly prefer the activity style
#
elf-pavlik
eprodrom, we can't hear you
#
elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's on the call?
#
Zakim
sees on the phone: INRIA, cwebber2, eprodrom
#
eprodrom
I know, because your phone is all messed up
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: they can hear fine though
#
cwebber2
we just can't hear them
#
eprodrom
We had about an OOM difference between object-style and activity-stle
#
kaepora
(Sorry I'm late: I'd like to repeat my offer to have a "crypto Q&A session" today so I can help as the invited observer who works in crypto)
#
aaronpk
eprodrom: with pump.io we have an order of magnitude difference between people doing operations on activityies vs creating objects directly
#
akuckartz
kaepora++
#
Loqi
kaepora has 1 karma
#
eprodrom
I can't hear, have to wait for the scribe
#
cwebber2
eprodrom, the question was:
#
eprodrom
Is there a way to fix the phone there?
#
sandro
we can try hanging up and dialing again, I guess
#
Arnaud
we didn't know it was broken!
#
sandro
you're not hearing anything?
#
bblfish
we need a cofee break to fix it. What is the problem you are experienceing @eprodrom ?
#
cwebber2
eprodrom, could you clarify, was it that you had an experience with an overwhelming number of developers having preference
#
aaronpk
sandro: i think you were saying you tried both approaches and people preferred one?
#
cwebber2
between activities and objects
#
cwebber2
let eprodrom respond before we do that dacne
#
eprodrom
Yes, from pump.io logs
#
AnnB
you guys can't hear anything?
#
AnnB
we didn't know
#
Arnaud
none of you can hear us?
#
eprodrom
I can barely hear
#
AnnB
hmm
#
eprodrom
BETTER
#
eprodrom
YES
#
sandro
cwebber2, it was working earlier, right? did it stop at some point?
#
cwebber2
yes much better
#
cwebber2
sandro: it has been bad the whole time
#
cwebber2
sandro: but it was even worse earlier
#
aaronpk
we didn't change anything, we're just going to have to speak loudly
#
hhalpin_
we could always switch to talky.io
#
cwebber2
I agree it's not a connection
#
cwebber2
now it's much clearer
#
sandro
it's just a long room, so some people aren't near the speakerphone.
#
cwebber2
anyway, maybe eprodrom should be able to reply to that point before we do any connect/disconnect dance?
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, cwebber on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom
q+
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, cwebber, eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
eprodrom: did you mean people use posting of activities more than PUT and DELETE on objects?
#
cwebber2
eprodrom: your turn to speak
#
cwebber2
are you muted?
#
eprodrom
Yes
#
eprodrom
One sec
#
Arnaud
eprodrom, can you please expaned a bit on what you meant
#
eprodrom
Let's just go to break, I'm sorry
pfefferle joined the channel
#
sandro
is there something you want us to do during the break?
#
aaronpk
eprodrom: yeah we did a big log scan based on a question from tantek. we had about 10x more people using activities endpoints posting update and delete activities ranther than PUT and DELETE on objects
#
rhiaro_
eprodrom: that was via Tsyesika btw
#
Arnaud
ack eprodrom
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
eprodrom: i'd like to talk about differences between activitypump and pump.io api
#
aaronpk
... there's a notify method, pump.io uses a regular webhooks mechanism, the other is activitypump requires https IDs for objects and pump.io allows any ID for objects
#
aaronpk
... the requiement for https IDs came in from activitypump
#
aaronpk
... i'm not crazy about it
#
aaronpk
Tsyesika: there's an issue open about both things, most of those are things left from how oshepherd wanted it, and I just didn't change it
#
hhalpin_
so maybe dropping those HTTP IDs might be possible.
#
aaronpk
... i'm more than open to having less stringent requirement for IDs, I don't think requiring TLS on URIs is necessary
#
hhalpin_
that would probably make people happier re convergence
#
hhalpin_
q+
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, hhalpin_ on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
people using activities endpoint over PUT on objects could be a preference for endpoints over restful, not necessarily activities over objects (cc Tsyesika, eprodrom, cwebber2)
#
aaronpk
... for the most part we're open to change
#
Arnaud
ack elf-pavlik
#
Zakim
elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss shortly lon side effects in MicroPub, ActivityPump and LDP
#
Zakim
sees hhalpin_ on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
elf-pavlik: activitypump seems heavy on side effects, LDP seems light on side effects
#
aaronpk
...the user posts a file is a great story to demonstrate side effects
#
aaronpk
... if we all compare this story we can talk more about the side effects
#
aaronpk
Arnaud: i thinkwe can defer that discussion to later
#
hhalpin_
q?
#
Zakim
sees hhalpin_ on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
... the plan is next to talk about the similar stories with SoLID, the rest of the day is about talking about how they compare
#
hhalpin_
ack hhalpin
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
Arnaud
ack hhalpin_
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
hhalpin_: we are at inria, the world top center for TLS and web security stuff...
#
aaronpk
... i'm going to talk with the researchers here, if people wanted to do a brief security session, maybe people would be interested
#
KevinMarks
hm, the dev pref for activities seen on pump could be because those are theire esamples
#
cwebber2
totally dropping out
#
elf-pavlik
+1 TLS session
#
cwebber2
the call, I mean :)
#
KevinMarks
PUT rather than POST?
#
hhalpin_
should we do a crypto or TLS session?
#
hhalpin_
I'll ask Karthik what his schedule is, but Nadim could also do it.
#
aaronpk
Arnaud: let's take a break for now, 10-15 minutes then look at SoLiD
#
KevinMarks
PUT is a pain to do; POST is a form, hence micropub
#
AnnB
bye, cwebber2 ... if you're going
#
cwebber2
AnnB: oh I'm not leaving
#
eprodrom
Tsyesika: I just found out that SUBSCRIBE/NOTIFY is an existing model in WebDAV
#
cwebber2
I meant, the call was dropping in and out of my ability to hear :)
#
AnnB
ah yes .. they're rebooting phone I think
#
eprodrom
Tsyesika: also, great job!
#
cwebber2
yes indeed
#
Tsyesika
eprodrom: thanks! sorry about the few mistakes i made >.<
#
AnnB
yes, Tsyesika++
#
cwebber2
Tsyesika, kick ass work :)
#
cwebber2
Tsyesika++
#
Loqi
Tsyesika has 10 karma
#
eprodrom
Tsyesika: yes, sorry about my outburst
#
eprodrom
With pump.io, the "comment" type isn't required for a response
#
Tsyesika
thanks for clarifying
#
eprodrom
Any in-reply-to response will work
#
AnnB
pretty mild, if that was an outburst!
#
cwebber2
anyway, I knew Tsyesika was the right person to present on the subject
#
eprodrom
However, I think the Web UI will barf if it sees something besides a comment there
#
eprodrom
Yes, fantastic
#
cwebber2
Tsyesika: I think you did a clearer job of presenting on the spec than I would have!
#
eprodrom
Did you ever hear back from Owen Shephard?
#
cwebber2
ok, now that we're at a bredak
#
cwebber2
I can finally get coffee
#
cwebber2
finallyyyyyyy
#
oshepherd
eprodrom: *sticks nose in*
#
AnnB
go for it!
#
eprodrom
HEY
#
cwebber2
ohai oshepherd :)
#
eprodrom
Also, misspelled
#
eprodrom
Your last name
#
eprodrom
Hooray that you are here oshepherd
#
oshepherd
I have been suuuuper busy
#
sandro
anyone on the phone
#
oshepherd
I commented a couple of weeks back on verb vs object orientation... My conclusion was that the only difference here between indieweb and ActivityStreams *in practice* was the "post"/"share" verbs which IMO are very contentless (and I'd actually prefer ActivityStreams without them, because in practice they're - specifically the post verb - a huge source of problems in pump.io
#
oshepherd
Specifically the problem is that you really want the audience attached to the object, but it ends up attached to the post
tantek joined the channel
#
oshepherd
Anyway, on the subject of mandatory TLS: I'll note that the both Google, Mozilla and I believe the W3C itself have announced an intent to deprecate HTTP (non-S)
#
eprodrom
Understood
#
eprodrom
I like a SHOULD but I'm less crazy about a MUST
#
eprodrom
I also like Webfinger
#
eprodrom
But I understand that the requirement for dereferenceable URIs makes that more complex
#
oshepherd
I haven't had a chance to catch up with Tsyesika's changes, but I did keep Webfinger *just* for the use case of translating user@domain identities
#
eprodrom
(We have to drag in the Webfinger spec)
#
eprodrom
Oh, I think it's out now
#
Zakim
-eprodrom
#
eprodrom
elf-pavlik: I find it funny that you talk about the update to the social graph as a "side effect"
#
eprodrom
It seems like the primary intent of posting a "follow" activity
#
oshepherd
Theres a whole lot of social platforms out there today using such identities - StatusNet, PumpIO, Diaspora, more traditional things like XMPP, even email. I don't think we can say "Sorry, you have to throw away all your user IDs" to them
#
eprodrom
I see your point
#
eprodrom
But I think there's something to be said for consistency too
#
eprodrom
(I prefer keeping the Webfinger ID, btw)
#
oshepherd
But I very much kept WebFinger use minimal - its' just "take an acct URI and translate it into the URI of an ActivityStreams profile document" - and if your IDs aren't in acct: form, you don't need to implement a server
#
eprodrom
All of which is to say
#
eprodrom
oshepherd++
#
Loqi
oshepherd has 3 karma
#
eprodrom
Tsyesika += 1,000,000
#
eprodrom
Actually I guess in Python that'd be
#
eprodrom
Tsyesika = Tsyesika + 1000000
#
oshepherd
Python has +=
#
eprodrom
Oh
#
eprodrom
Great!
#
oshepherd
Doesn't have ++ though, unless my brain has gone fuzzy
#
eprodrom
I usually assume that if a particular syntax element is convenient Python prudishly disallows it
#
eprodrom
B-)
#
oshepherd
I spend most of my time coding in SystemVerilog these days which is the mother of not-at-all convinient
Gabriel_Lachmann joined the channel
#
oshepherd
(No, SystemVerilog, nobody wanted their function's member variables to default static. But that's enough ranting about SystemVerilog :-))
#
eprodrom
Wow
#
eprodrom
OK, I will pipe down then
#
eprodrom
Tsyesika, it looks like AS2.0 doesn't even have a "comment" type
#
eprodrom
Which is probably good
#
eprodrom
I've never been a big fan
#
Tsyesika
eprodrom: yeah we use "Note" type as an example of what i'd use a "comment" in pump.io for
#
oshepherd
It's basically just a "note"
#
rhiaro_
scribenick: rhiaro
#
aaronpk
scribenick: rhiaro_
#
rhiaro_
Arnaud: we have all afternoon, if we don't get through before lunch we can go on after
#
rhiaro_
... can people on the phone hear?
#
cwebber2
I can hear
bblfish and akuckartz joined the channel
#
Tsyesika
oshepherd: i did want you to look at #15 and #19 on https://github.com/w3c-social/activitypump/issues
#
Tsyesika
oshepherd: not now but sometime
#
Zakim
+eprodrom
#
rhiaro_
deiu: will start with most basic example, create edit and delete a note
#
rhiaro_
... then henry's going to go over two more complex examples, profile editing and access control stuff
#
rhiaro_
... So SoLiD uses LDP to create new resources and manage resources
#
rhiaro_
... This makes it really easy for people who are used to a restful way of doing things
#
rhiaro_
... compared to previous examples, we're not using an endpoint to post new data, but creating data inside a container that is used to store similar types of resources
#
rhiaro_
... in this case, a notes container
#
oshepherd
Tsyesika: Using the NOTIFY element is supremely elegant. It's also quite likely to be a supreme pain in the ass, so I'd say go ahead and replace it with POST.
#
rhiaro_
... So we can see here our examples use curl
#
rhiaro_
... just to give you an impression of how simple they are
#
eprodrom
q+
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
aaronpk
q+ to ask about "slug"
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom, aaronpk on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
... What we're doing is sending a post request with slug header, and data containing actual note. Uses activitystreams terms to describe note
#
rhiaro_
... [and is turtle]
#
rhiaro_
... could be json-ld
#
oshepherd
Tsyesika, as for HTTPS, maybe table this one for later. By the time any spec becomes a REC, I expect Lets Encrypt should make TLS certs trivially available
#
eprodrom
Could you speak up, please, deiu ?
#
rhiaro_
... use AS2.0 vocab
#
rhiaro_
sandro: we haven't implmeented anything that uses that
#
rhiaro_
deiu: we don't have an app that consumes AS2.0 data
#
rhiaro_
... the point is to demonstrate how you create and modify data
#
rhiaro_
timbl: you can do it with a client without the server knowing anything
#
rhiaro_
deiu: What the server returns is a Location header which has the full URI of the new resource
#
rhiaro_
... Second step is to correct/complete the note that was sent before
#
rhiaro_
... Client needs to update existing resource with the new data
#
rhiaro_
... SoLiD has two ways of doing this
#
rhiaro_
... can do a PUT to replace whole resource
#
rhiaro_
... uses URI of new resource, that you get back in the Location header
#
Tsyesika
oshepherd: might be good to write that on the issue just so evan can respond, i am not against lowering the requirements but i'm also not really bothered by it either but it seems evan is
#
rhiaro_
... Second way of doing is to send an HTTP PATCH with a SPARQL UPDATE
#
eprodrom
Yes
#
eprodrom
I am
#
rhiaro_
... in which you modify only the bit of information you want to change
#
AnnB
phone people ... are you still having trouble hearing?
#
eprodrom
Yes, it's just fading in and out
#
rhiaro_
... We should probably add PATCH but it's not relevant to this group
#
eprodrom
I think the speaker needs to be louder or closer to the phone
#
aaronpk
he's as close as he can get
#
rhiaro_
sandro: PATCH is subject to conneg. The one here is implemented, but there's a w3c rec for a different patch format
#
eprodrom
OK, thanks
#
rhiaro_
deiu: we do support json patches
#
rhiaro_
... if you have json-ld file you could use that
#
rhiaro_
... final step is user decides to delete note
#
rhiaro_
... HTTP operation on the resource itself (DELETE)
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom, aaronpk on the speaker queue
#
Arnaud
ack eprodrom
#
Zakim
sees aaronpk on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
q+ re: request for Social WG oriented view on SoLid
#
Zakim
sees aaronpk, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
eprodrom: social software often when you're posting a note, you would send it somewhere, like the inbox of followers or mentions inbox of person mentioned
#
rhiaro_
... I understand this wouldn't be possible?
#
rhiaro_
... So side effect wouldn't happen server side, has to happen client side
#
rhiaro_
deiu: yes, everything happens in the client. Client is charged to send notification to someone's inbox
#
rhiaro_
... or you could have additional app-specific service which listens to changes on containers
#
rhiaro_
... then based on changes on containers like new resource created, could trigger app-specific processes
#
rhiaro_
melvster: triggers websocket
#
rhiaro_
eprodrom: that's interesting
#
elf-pavlik
ACTION: pelf create comparison of side effects approach in MicroPub, ActivityPump and SoLiD
#
trackbot
is creating a new ACTION.
#
RRSAgent
records action 1
#
trackbot
Created ACTION-61 - Create comparison of side effects approach in micropub, activitypump and solid [on Pavlik elf - due 2015-05-12].
#
rhiaro_
... twitter members have millions or tens of millions of follows, would not be scaleable to have client distribute note to millinos of inboxes
#
Zakim
sees aaronpk, elf-pavlik, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
... starts becoming difficult for client
#
rhiaro_
... and if two different clients do it differently you don't have a very consisten social experience
#
rhiaro_
... so if there is a way to have a consistant side effect that provides these sorts of features in ldp that would be interesting
#
melvser1
q+
#
Zakim
sees aaronpk, elf-pavlik, bblfish, melvser on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
... access control too
#
rhiaro_
deiu: we have access control
#
rhiaro_
... SoLiD does implement websockets
#
rhiaro_
... has a websocket interface for all it's resources
#
rhiaro_
... you could have a service which listens on a websocket which has subscribed to that container, which can process all the data that gets into the container
#
cwebber2
huh, that's interesting
#
rhiaro_
timbl: which works for hundreds of thousands of people
#
rhiaro_
eprodrom: if you come check yoru inbox in the morning and want to see all the stuff that happened since yesterday, has to be some kind of application process, or you can leave a websocket open all night
#
rhiaro_
... so websocket interesting for online updates, but not distirbution
#
rhiaro_
deiu: distribution happens by a service, like a pubsub service
#
rhiaro_
... that listens to data and upates all its subscribers
#
rhiaro_
Arnaud: more background on ldp
#
elf-pavlik
ACTION: pelf document possible danger of malicious apps when moving more responsibilities to clients
#
trackbot
is creating a new ACTION.
#
RRSAgent
records action 2
#
trackbot
Created ACTION-62 - Document possible danger of malicious apps when moving more responsibilities to clients [on Pavlik elf - due 2015-05-12].
#
rhiaro_
... there are different use cases. LDP spec defines generic protocol to create and update and find resources
#
rhiaro_
... but there are different types of servers that can implement LDP
#
rhiaro_
... there is what we refer to as (??) applications
#
rhiaro_
... no specific application semantic associated
#
melvser1
q-
#
Zakim
sees aaronpk, elf-pavlik, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
... generic datastore
#
rhiaro_
... you send bits, they store, you ask and they return
#
rhiaro_
... never any side effects
#
rhiaro_
... Other peopel use LDP with very application specific servers
#
rhiaro_
... for example, IBM uses LDP in the context of application lifecycle management
#
rhiaro_
... LDP is a thin layer put on the top of legacy software
#
rhiaro_
... in this case when you create a resource using LDP you create something with very specific semantics, and has application specific side effects
#
rhiaro_
... possible to imagine in this case youc ould hasl have an application specifi cserver, with side effects like distribution and notifications and things like that
#
Arnaud
ack aaronpk
#
Zakim
aaronpk, you wanted to ask about "slug"
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
aaronpk: about slug - is that meant to be a unique slug per note, or a namespace where multiple things go?
#
eprodrom
rhiaro_: thanks for scribing so well
#
rhiaro_
deiu: a hint on how you want URI to end up looking
#
rhiaro_
... was name, not namepsace
#
rhiaro_
... suggested name
#
rhiaro_
... server could ignore it
#
rhiaro_
Arnaud: that's not specific to LDP, there's an RFC on slug
#
rhiaro_
aaronpk: Ok. Other thing - you do or do not have implementations consuming the data?
#
rhiaro_
deiu: I meant about activity streams vocab
#
rhiaro_
... we don't have an implementation that consumes AS
#
rhiaro_
... things created so far don't use AS
#
rhiaro_
sandro: CIMBA uses SIOC
#
Arnaud
ack elf-pavlik
#
Zakim
elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss request for Social WG oriented view on SoLid
#
Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
elf-pavlik
action-61
#
trackbot
is looking up action-61.
#
trackbot
action-61 -- Pavlik elf to Create comparison of side effects approach in micropub, activitypump and solid -- due 2015-05-12 -- OPEN
#
rhiaro_
elf-pavlik: for the side-effects I created action-61
#
rhiaro_
... I don't think it's enough to just have this in minutes
#
rhiaro_
... we should document on wiki
#
rhiaro_
... Also I'm going to request on SoLiD repo that we can have a social web perspect
#
rhiaro_
... ive
#
rhiaro_
... eg. using json-ld first instead of turtle, etc
#
rhiaro_
... to make it easier for group
#
rhiaro_
... whoever wants to work on it with me, can help
#
sandro
q+ to say I'd like webmention to be part of vanilla LDP
#
Zakim
sees bblfish, sandro on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
timbl: do you think making it a live switchabe document, switching example format between json-ld and turtle is good? Or document rewritten?
#
rhiaro_
elf-pavlik: I think some things like with sparql updates, some peopel won't even want to go there
#
eprodrom
elf-pavlik: That's true
#
rhiaro_
deiu: sparql and ldp patch or whatever else have been added as alternatives
#
rhiaro_
... in addition to LDP http requests
#
eprodrom
My eyes just skip over those options
#
rhiaro_
... we should work together
#
Arnaud
ack bblfish
#
Zakim
sees sandro on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
elf-pavlik: make it clear we don't HAVE to use these
#
elf-pavlik
11:36 eprodrom My eyes just skip over those options
#
AnnB
what do you mean, eprodrom, that your "eyes skip over those options"?
#
rhiaro_
bblfish: it woudl be extremely useful for LDP or this group, to have some way for any resource to be able to say I want to subscribe to this resource so you can say you want to see any changes on a document. Could be really generic
#
claudio
q+
#
Zakim
sees sandro, claudio on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
... would work like activitystreams, could poitn to another collection somewhere else
#
eprodrom
When there's a section of SoLiD like, "Or, you could do a SPARQL query like this..."
#
rhiaro_
... the resource itself on the server could post notification changes
#
eprodrom
AnnB: ^^^^
#
rhiaro_
... we could solve the problem mentione don the phone
#
aaronpk
eprodrom: AnnB: same with me
#
rhiaro_
Arnaud: there are discussions about this in LDPNext about being able to keep track of changes to resources and be notfied
#
rhiaro_
... you can have an optimal way of knowing what has changed
#
AnnB
does that mean it's not useful to you, or it's not actually functioninng, or ...??
#
rhiaro_
... instead of having to fetch the whole resource and figure it out
#
rhiaro_
... you can use patch format to tell you what has changed. Possible in future of LDP
#
Arnaud
ack sandro
#
Zakim
sandro, you wanted to say I'd like webmention to be part of vanilla LDP
#
Zakim
sees claudio on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
AnnB some people are allergic to rdf and sparql :)
#
eprodrom
AnnB: It's not useful to me, and mentioning it in the spec is less helpful
#
rhiaro_
sandro: what would solve that is if webmention were standardise and LDP incorporate that
#
eprodrom
q+
#
Zakim
sees claudio, eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
... assumign you can have massive webmention servers. Offloads from client and puts in normal server infrastructure
#
Arnaud
ack claudio
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
#
KevinMarks
PUT and PATCH are retro von Neumann worldviews
#
rhiaro_
claudio: from my commercial point of view, most of the use cases are around personas rather than topics
#
KevinMarks
POST is more general
#
Zakim
+ben_thatmustbeme
#
rhiaro_
... but we have uses cases where it's important to people to stream content, to interact over topics instead of among each other
#
ben_thatmustbeme
Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim
ben_thatmustbeme should now be muted
#
AnnB
so eprodrom, is that specific to rdf and sparql, or all of the linked data stuff?
#
rhiaro_
... If we have a streaming event like a movie, we are really interested in seeing what people are thinking about a topic
#
eprodrom
AnnB: it's actually more editorial about the document
#
AnnB
aha, thanks
#
rhiaro_
... we are forseeing technologies for adapting streaming content to people's mood etc. So critical to happen realtime. I wonder if these technical solutions would cover it
#
eprodrom
There's one clear and simple way to get a task done, then a few other options that are less clear and less simple
#
KevinMarks
movie's aren't streaming
#
rhiaro_
... As far as I understand most silos are consumer oriented. In twitter you can provide a topic and see how people react to that
#
rhiaro_
... We are using webRTC, there's a lot to do, to provide personalised video streams
#
rhiaro_
... so we need to knwo what people are thinking
#
rhiaro_
sandro: hashtags?
#
AnnB
altho I still don't truly understand the nuance of your comment
#
KevinMarks
2-way is streaming; movies are downloads
#
rhiaro_
claudio: yes but we dont' want to rely on twitter
#
rhiaro_
... intresting example with virtual product placement, or virtual notification of live streaming events
#
rhiaro_
... We are not sure we can model it with most of these decentralised solutions
#
eprodrom
claudio: there are two options
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom, cwebber on the speaker queue
#
KevinMarks
hashtags are not bound to twitter
#
ben_thatmustbeme
eprodrom, is audio in and out with you as well or is it just me?
#
AnnB
fyi, Claudio is from Telecom Italia
#
KevinMarks
they span multiple models
#
rhiaro_
sandro: out of scope for this group
#
eprodrom
ben_thatmustbeme: for me too
#
rhiaro_
Arnaud: do we have user stories that get close to this?
#
cwebber2
ben_thatmustbeme: yeah the call quality is not good
#
rhiaro_
bblfish: we have a bug database that is content oriented
#
rhiaro_
... or one for a product
#
rhiaro_
... interaction on an object not on a [person] community comes around the object
#
ben_thatmustbeme
eprodrom, cwebber2 seems to be when speaking too softly
#
rhiaro_
sandro: hashtags are harder, they don't have identifiers
timbl joined the channel
#
rhiaro_
claudio: we are looking at things in Telecom Italia, in talks with netflix, they're using product placement for funding content
#
rhiaro_
... this could be done on the fly
#
rhiaro_
... adaptive advertisement
#
rhiaro_
... customise content basedon what people are saying in realtime
#
rhiaro_
... this is feasible
#
aaronpk
yeah we really need external mics for the phone because the people on the ends of the table are super hard to hear
#
ben_thatmustbeme
cwebber2, eprodrom, again, don't use ':' or you are speaking for me. I thought you had to be scribe for that to happen, but sandro indicated otherwise
#
eprodrom
ben_thatmustbeme, sorry
#
rhiaro_
... we rely on twitter for now because we don't have an open decentralised solution for this
#
rhiaro_
... I understand may be out of socpe
#
aaronpk
wait really? I thought that only applied to the scribe. uhoh.
#
rhiaro_
... topics could be in the future
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom, cwebber on the speaker queue
#
cwebber2
ben_thatmustbeme, sorry, it's my client default to use :
#
cwebber2
so I have to correct it constantly
#
Zakim
-eprodrom
#
ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk, we'll find out for sure soon
#
aaronpk
yeah it's every IRC client default to use that
#
rhiaro_
my client uses : too, I thought it was IRC standard
#
rhiaro_
sandro: we had a hashtags user stories, was -1 because it's too hard
#
cwebber2
I figured the scribenick made it clear
#
AnnB
(I called his attention to your comment, KevinMarks, about streaming vs download)
#
rhiaro_
elf-pavlik: could observe if something is otu of scope and check if something might block it in the future and flag it
#
cwebber2
but I guess not
#
rhiaro_
... and we can do our best to take that into account
#
rhiaro_
claudio: I wonder if takign it into accoutn could make it easier if we decide we want to handle it
#
cwebber2
I guess it doesn't, at least, when someone takes over for scribing
#
rhiaro_
... I understand standardising hashtags is not easy
#
Zakim
+eprodrom
#
rhiaro_
... or impossible
#
rhiaro_
... but could be valuable
eprodrom_ joined the channel
#
eprodrom_
q?
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom, cwebber on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom_
Aha
#
AnnB
no worries
#
rhiaro_
bblfish: a company taht did a bookmarking service, you could bookmark things and when you typed a word they would do a text analysis, then find dpbedia concepts and URIs that were related to concepts in the page
#
rhiaro_
... it looks to the user like a hashtag, but behind is the semantics of dpbedia and URIs
#
ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk, rhiaro_, well i suppose it does make things easier for the scribe
#
rhiaro_
^^ bbc does that to help journalists tag news articles
#
rhiaro_
... helps users avoid clashes
#
eprodrom_
Are we still talking about the media monitoring?
#
rhiaro_
timbl: there are some structured hashtags, some are totally random
#
rhiaro_
... it would be fun though
#
eprodrom_
Could we maybe get back to the social API agenda?
#
KevinMarks
autocomplete is fine, estatign the tag the user assigned isn't
#
eprodrom_
Arnaud, are we on-topic?
#
rhiaro_
elf-pavlik: could have hashtag.cc like prefix.cc
#
eprodrom_
I'd like to talk about SoLiD
#
Arnaud
ack eprodrom
#
Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
ALERT everyone's wifi passcodes are expiring
#
rhiaro_
stay tuned
#
rhiaro_
eprodrom: can we go back to talking about SoLiD
#
rhiaro_
... concerned that notifications like webmention might be useful, but in other ones there's a more complex effect in executing a social action
#
rhiaro_
... eg a follow action would update the actor's following list
#
rhiaro_
... and distribute follow action to serveral inboxes
#
rhiaro_
... so I'm not sure this is just about notification
#
rhiaro_
... there's a lot of updates that could happen
#
rhiaro_
... again, it's all entirely possible to do these using polling
#
rhiaro_
... you could poll every list of every social graph then add reverse pointers
#
rhiaro_
... but much easier to get collection of people
akuckartz joined the channel
#
rhiaro_
... if we use SoLiD we're goign to have to put a lot of burden on the client which is unfair to the client and likely to generate a lot of errors
#
rhiaro_
... or we're going to have to limit ourselves to very simple social interactions
#
Zakim
sees cwebber on the speaker queue
#
Arnaud
ack cwebber
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
bblfish: we have more examples
#
timbl
One could use (coincidentally) a distributed hash table for coordonating people interested in hashtags. The problem is a bit like the NNTP newsgroup distribution problem, as newsgroup names and hashtags are bothe basicallt arbitrary short strings.
#
elf-pavlik
action-61
#
trackbot
is looking up action-61.
#
trackbot
action-61 -- Pavlik elf to Create comparison of side effects approach in micropub, activitypump and solid -- due 2015-05-12 -- OPEN
#
elf-pavlik
eprodrom_ let's work on documenting it together?
#
rhiaro_
cwebber2: I'm curious what happens in terms of how much link rot impacts this system, especially if you end up having commuincation with someone else and their whole site goes down? How does that affect yoru local record of your interaction with them? And also resolving information about that?
#
rhiaro_
... curious about what ends up happening when somebody else's server goes down
#
eprodrom_
timbl, you could also have one or more aggregation servers
#
rhiaro_
deiu: how is this specific to solid? will affect any decentralised service?
AnnB_ joined the channel
#
KevinMarks
hashtags converge because language converges
#
rhiaro_
cwebber2: if my mail server goes down you can't send me email. You still have access to all the email you have from me
#
rhiaro_
... and contact metadata
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
... I'm not making a comment, this is a real question
#
sandro
As Evan said: -1. I think search is probably difficult to do for this API. Maybe a separate API? --Evan Prodromou (talk) 16:02, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
#
elf-pavlik
q+ re: capturing ACTIONs
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
sandro: we don't address that yet, the answer is to use caching proxies or archiving services where I access your site through something that keeps a copie
#
rhiaro_
... we need that for performance reasons too
#
KevinMarks
to put it another way, hashtags works precisely because they don't have namespaces; thus forcing convergence
#
rhiaro_
deiu: in a decentralised system, there are two ways to shuffle information around
#
rhiaro_
... you base it on poll or push
#
rhiaro_
... either you push notifications to people directly to their own servers
#
rhiaro_
... or you wait for them to poll your feed/outbox of notifications and everyone gets theirs when they want
#
rhiaro_
bblfish: interesting compatibility with AS2
#
rhiaro_
... you could have feed of activities which you fill in whenever an action happens on the LDP server
#
rhiaro_
... if a client misses a poll request they can go back to the feed and find all the changes
#
rhiaro_
... this might be where this is going
#
rhiaro_
timbl: you can convert between the two
#
cwebber2
thx sandro, deiu
#
rhiaro_
... when you know the state of some resource you can accumulate the differences
#
deiu
no problem :)
#
rhiaro_
... if you have a series of update messages you can generate the results
#
rhiaro_
Arnaud: eprodrom, isn't that true for all other solutions too?
#
rhiaro_
... if aaron's website is down I can't access any content?
#
cwebber2
I think you mean me, not eprodrom_ :)
#
rhiaro_
... same with pumpio and activitypump
#
rhiaro_
... Valid question, but why make it sound like it's specific to SoLiD?
#
rhiaro_
... sorry I meant cwebber2
#
rhiaro_
cwebber2: curious because I imagine (??) sparql something ..
hhalpin joined the channel
#
rhiaro_
... you end up storing copies of communication
#
hhalpin
waves!
#
rhiaro_
... not sure if you do sparql queries across multiple sites
#
rhiaro_
... I just don't have experience with this type of infrastructure
#
ben_thatmustbeme
Arnaud, in microformats its assumed that data is copied and stored, not constantly pulled
#
rhiaro_
... I think there are issues when a node goes down and someone can't access
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, deiu on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom_
q+
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, deiu, eprodrom_ on the speaker queue
#
hhalpin
An invited observer, Francesca Musiani, who is studying decentralized networking and internet governance as a sociologist at CNRS, has just joined us.
#
rhiaro_
... anyway, not tryign to challenge this, just to see if this is something that SoLiD has
#
Arnaud
ack elf-pavlik
#
Zakim
elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss capturing ACTIONs
#
Zakim
sees deiu, eprodrom_ on the speaker queue
#
hhalpin
q?
#
Zakim
sees deiu, eprodrom_ on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
elf-pavlik: quick comment. I see need that we capture more actions and put thing son wiki page as we explore things
#
rhiaro_
... every meeting every week we stumble on the same things from different directions
#
rhiaro_
... every time there is a problem make an action or put it on the wiki
#
rhiaro_
... it gets lost in the minutes
#
rhiaro_
... indiewebcamp has a good approach, we can take inspiration from that
#
Arnaud
ack deiu
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom_ on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
... to build up common understanding of each implementation
#
rhiaro_
deiu: can we make it an open issue? [caching] and think about it later? It affects every proposal
#
rhiaro_
elf-pavlik: someone take action to document issue
#
rhiaro_
sandro: or just raise issue
#
eprodrom_
q?
#
Zakim
sees eprodrom_ on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
deiu: please raise issue
#
Arnaud
ack eprodrom_
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
eprodrom: I think the reason chris brought it up is that SoLiD is putting a lot of the burden onto the client to make sure that the state of the world is maintained
#
Zakim
sees deiu on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
... I know you're trying to concentrate on simple examples
#
sandro
issue: do we need the overall system to be robust even when nodes fail?
#
trackbot
is creating a new ISSUE.
#
trackbot
Created ISSUE-39 - Do we need the overall system to be robust even when nodes fail?. Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/39/edit>.
melvster joined the channel
#
rhiaro_
... but I'm more interested in ones that have more complex interactions like follow
#
elf-pavlik
q+ re: running same logic on client and server (more general clear documentation of concerns / responsibilities )
#
Zakim
sees deiu, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
... would generate a follow activity in my outbox, generate multiple follow activities in multiple inboxes, update my follows list and woudl update someone else's folllowers list
#
rhiaro_
... if any one of those fails, then the state of the world is out of sync
#
rhiaro_
... in pump.io each server is responsible for processing those actions Only one message is transmitted between servers
#
rhiaro_
... if evan on one server follows arnaud on another server the only notification that goes from one to the other is the activity noteification
#
rhiaro_
... the server doesn't try to write to arnaud's collection from even's server
#
Zakim
sees deiu, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
... that means just re-sending an activity is much easier
#
rhiaro_
... server's responsibility, so much easier and more reliable
#
rhiaro_
... can do retries
#
rhiaro_
... not up the client
#
rhiaro_
Arnaud: solid have more walkthroughs
#
Arnaud
ack deiu
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
deiu: SoLiD started as a general platform not social, but we are intereseted in managing notifications
#
sandro
q+ to answer eprodrom_ re consistency
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, sandro on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
... We want any app to have a way to notify apps and other servers about changes
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, sandro on the speaker queue
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, sandro, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
... So AS2 could help us do that
#
rhiaro_
... which means we would have to implement some of this logic in the server
#
eprodrom_
That's great
#
rhiaro_
sandro: different answer
#
Arnaud
ack sandro
#
Zakim
sandro, you wanted to answer eprodrom_ re consistency
#
Zakim
sees elf-pavlik, bblfish on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
... about 20 minutes ago henry mentioned idea of generic website
#
cwebber2
so move the side effect / notification stuff off to activitystreams, and the actual store of things on RDF / linked data?
#
rhiaro_
... we haven't implmemented this yet, this is speculative
#
cwebber2
is that what you mean deiu ?
#
rhiaro_
... If I follow someone we change the link to say I follow them, then there's data propagation that doesn't care about the semantics of what happened. All changes are all just data changes
#
rhiaro_
... haven't standardised that yet, but lots of ways to do it
#
rhiaro_
timbl: could be something like thermometer has just taken new temperature reading
#
rhiaro_
sandro: we want this to work for long tail of multi user appications, social is just 1%
#
rhiaro_
... doesn't necessarily mean anything to anyone in this group, but this is the background about why we're designing like this
#
Arnaud
ack elf-pavlik
#
Zakim
elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss running same logic on client and server (more general clear documentation of concerns / responsibilities )
#
Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
AnnB
q=
#
Zakim
AnnB, if you meant to query the queue, please say 'q?'; if you meant to replace the queue, please say 'queue= ...'
#
AnnB
Q+
#
Zakim
sees bblfish, AnnB on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
elf-pavlik: to give our collaboration more structure. We can't say easier/harder/worse/better - it's subjective. We should document possibilities and constraints so everyone knows the options
#
Zakim
sees bblfish, AnnB on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
... We need clear way to talk about rendering, content editing, notifications, we need clear vocabulary for this
#
rhiaro_
... Because responsibilities can be handled elsewhere
#
Arnaud
ack AnnB
#
Zakim
sees bblfish on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
... Don't make constraints based only on personal use cases, but document these constraints
#
rhiaro_
AnnB: enterprise interest is more about workflow management
#
rhiaro_
... than social
#
rhiaro_
... seems that the linked data stuff which reflects more data changes, like some travel approval comes through or some supply chain change
#
rhiaro_
... in Boeing we transfer every ten minutes as much data as in the library of congress
#
hhalpin
q+
#
Zakim
sees bblfish, hhalpin on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
... so the general data stuff is important to me/Boeing
#
hhalpin
?
#
rhiaro_
sandro: the other proposals can handle data flowing as well
#
hhalpin
Are we done with SoLID stories?
#
eprodrom_
hhalpin: I think I keep interrupting
#
hhalpin
Or can we move comparing SoLID to ActivityPump?
#
Arnaud
ack bblfish
#
Zakim
sees hhalpin on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
hhalpin: no we just started
#
eprodrom_
Maybe we should let deiu finish
#
hhalpin
q- hhalpin
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
rhiaro_
bblfish: there's no distinction between client and server. servers can speak to servers to make these updates too, could be in the background
#
rhiaro_
... then we rely on REST for getting and caching resources
#
rhiaro_
... all the infrastructure of the web is there for us
#
rhiaro_
... no duplication of data because all data is at the URI that names it
#
rhiaro_
... so what's missing is for updates to be sent when the content changes before the cache expirey date
#
rhiaro_
... to say please refresh cache. At architectural level that's what missing
#
elf-pavlik
cache includes browser cache, social backend cache etc.
#
AnnB
to expand my point, we are interested in the "social" components, as well as the workflow management -- and we see relationship between the two
#
rhiaro_
Arnaud: break for lunch, continue with user stories after lunch
#
rhiaro_
hhalpin: some AC people have to leave at like 3?
#
rhiaro_
sandro: at 5, when the meeting is over
#
rhiaro_
AnnB: we're going straight from here
#
rhiaro_
probably doesn't need to scribe this
#
eprodrom_
rhiaro_: actually the schedule stuff is very helpful
#
eprodrom_
For those of us on the phone
#
eprodrom_
Since it's mostly inaudible
#
rhiaro_
eprodrom_: nothing new, just that people don't need to leave early after all
#
eprodrom_
rhiaro_: thanks
#
eprodrom_
So breaking for lunch now?
#
rhiaro_
hhalpin: who wants a TLS session after SoLiD
#
rhiaro_
epodrom_: yes I think so
#
Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
#
eprodrom_
Thank you
#
eprodrom_
Sorry to be so needy :)
#
rhiaro_
hhalpin: if people want to fit that in, we're in INRIA so we could have a TLS session
#
rhiaro_
... but it's out of scope for group
#
rhiaro_
AnnB: let's not get distracted
#
rhiaro_
Arnaud: we should go through our agenda
#
rhiaro_
... two more stories for SoLiD
#
rhiaro_
... general discussion
#
rhiaro_
... comparison
#
rhiaro_
... once we've seen three different proposals, see what the differences are
#
rhiaro_
... then there are demos
#
rhiaro_
melvster has short demos, for more generic use cases. deiu has a specific demo
#
rhiaro_
AnnB: TLS thing feels too much distraction
#
rhiaro_
... Didn't know it came up
#
rhiaro_
Arnaud: proposal is that once we're done with agenda, those interested can have security discussion with INRIA
#
elf-pavlik
+1 TLS after AC participants leave
#
cwebber2
hey also
#
rhiaro_
... *now* breaking for lunch
#
cwebber2
rhiaro++ for great scribing :)
#
Loqi
rhiaro has 74 karma
#
aaronpk
rhiaro++
#
eprodrom_
Thanks for scribing rhiaro_
#
Loqi
rhiaro has 75 karma
#
eprodrom_
rhiaro++
#
Loqi
rhiaro has 76 karma
#
cwebber2
rhiaro is a karma accumulator
#
rhiaro_
Lunch 1 hour
#
rhiaro_
back at quarter past
#
Zakim
-ben_thatmustbeme
#
Zakim
-eprodrom
#
rhiaro
For anyone not physically present, we haven't made it back from lunch yet
#
cwebber2
rhiaro: ok thx
tantek joined the channel
#
eprodrom_
rhiaro: thanks
#
eprodrom_
I like that phrasing
#
eprodrom_
It makes it sound like we're visitors from the spirit realm
#
Zakim
+ben_thatmustbeme
#
ben_thatmustbeme
Zkim, mute me
#
ben_thatmustbeme
Zakim, mute me
#
Zakim
ben_thatmustbeme should now be muted
#
eprodrom
Are we live again?
#
ben_thatmustbeme
i hear nothing
#
ben_thatmustbeme
i just jumped on to see
#
tantek
greetings - administrivia request: I'd like to cancel next week's telcon (and suggest adopting a culture of skipping the week after a f2f)
#
ben_thatmustbeme
eprodrom, there is talking again
#
tantek
Arnaud, eprodrom, hhalpin ^^^
#
Arnaud
tantek: what's the rationale for that?
#
rhiaro_
People are just drifting back in
#
rhiaro_
most people not back yet
#
tantek
Arnaud: it's a request, and typical in many WGs. Allows for more time for post-f2f async follow-ups (which there tend to be more of) before the next telcon.
#
Zakim
-cwebber2
#
cwebber2
I didn't hear anything, but I am redialing
#
cwebber2
could have been my connection
#
tantek
Also good to acknowledge that sometimes a f2f can be tiring and giving people a week to "recover" is good too.
#
Arnaud
I'm open to it but not in favor of making it a rule
#
tantek
I don't think it's a rule in any WG - more of a custom.
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tantek
So I'm proposing it as a one-off for next week
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tantek
then we can get feedback from WG members about were they ok with it, appreciated it, or would have preferred having a telcon.
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Zakim
+??P0
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Arnaud
"adopting a culture of skipping the week after a f2f" sounded like making it a rule/policy
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cwebber2
Zakim, ??P0 is me
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Zakim
+cwebber2; got it
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cwebber2
I can hear again
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tantek
Arnaud: the *and* was intended as a two part proposal
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ben_thatmustbeme
cwebber2, did you lean on the keypad. :P
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tantek
I wanted to provide my longerterm intentions
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cwebber2
ben_thatmustbeme: no?
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ben_thatmustbeme
cwebber2 haha, :P
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ben_thatmustbeme
cwebber2, I also just force myself to use /me so its not minuted at all
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Zakim
+eprodrom
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cwebber2
(setq erc-pcomplete-nick-postfix ",")
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cwebber2
there we go
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eprodrom
Cool
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eprodrom
It's almost worse to hear the telecon at this point
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eprodrom
IMTS the audio
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eprodrom
Mostly getting rough impressions
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sandro
hm? How's the audio? There are multiple conversations in the room as we haven't started yet.
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eprodrom
Ah, right
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eprodrom
sandro, it's pretty bad right now
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eprodrom
That's great
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eprodrom
I'm sorry to be so demanding about the phone
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tantek
I am still in a separate meeting and cannot call in.
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eprodrom
It's a lot easier when someone is scribing
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Arnaud
fyi: we had lunch at a restaurant nearby that was pretty crowded and it took longer to get served than we would have liked
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Arnaud
people are still slowing coming back
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cwebber2
eprodrom, someone needs to scribe the ambient smalltalk! ;)
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eprodrom
No problem whatsoever
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Arnaud
s/slowing/slowly/
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tantek
Arnaud: PROPOSAL: Skip next week's telcon as being the week after a f2f.
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Arnaud
personally I think we still have issues on AS we could talk about on the telecon
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tantek
we will continue to do so, and I think they could wait til the next telcon
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cwebber2
I'm not against the telecon :) I just wouldn't mind the break!
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ben_thatmustbeme
thinks france has 18 hour days... an hour for lunch is an hour and a half, 8 hours of sleep is 9 and a half ;P
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tantek
cwebber2: agreed. We could use the break after a f2f.
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sandro
scribe: sandro
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sandro
scribenick: sandro
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ben_thatmustbeme
Before we start do we want to bring up tantek's proposal?
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sandro
which is, in a few words?
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Arnaud
I'd rather wait to see where we end up
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tantek
sandro, PROPOSAL: Skip next week's telcon as being the week after a f2f.
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tantek
Arnaud, is that a -1 or a 0?
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Arnaud
this is: later :)
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sandro
tantek, I suggest we use it as an informal recap of the F2F, esp for people who didnt attend
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek, i think thats a postpone vote
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cwebber2
informal recap could be ok
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eprodrom
Sorry to say, we're behind on our deliverables and I don't think it makes sense to take a week off
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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tantek
I don't think that's a good use of sync time - recaps belong in summaries on a URL.
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sandro
topic: solid walkthrough: profile management
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Arnaud
I'm with evan
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sandro
tantek, in my experience, these recaps are mostly discussion
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tantek
eprodrom, we're only "behind" because the dates set were unreasonable and without explicit methodology as to *how* they were going to be met.
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tantek
so such "we're behind" justification is a bit hollow
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elf-pavlik
we *all* try following deiu demo now!
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sandro
deiu: I'm showing my profile, using an app, which gathers the data from multiple sources, some of which are public and some are restricted-access.
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eprodrom
tantek, but that's what people who run late always say
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tantek
eprodrom: that's a tautology and false
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tantek
I stated from the beginning that the proposed schedules were unrealistic and should be dropped.
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eprodrom
Fair enough
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sandro
deiu: I'm adding a phone number, and the apps asks which place I want to put it -- with different associated access control
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tantek
I don't think such top-down schedules are a good way to run or motivate a working group
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melvster
slaps KevinMarks around a bit with a large fishbot
AnnB joined the channel
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tantek
melvster huh?
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sandro
deiu: See how in the PUBLIC version of my profile, my phone numbers don't appear
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cwebber2
melvster, are you running mIRC on windows95? ;)
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sandro
deiu: that is, when I'm not logged in
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eprodrom
q+
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Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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melvster
misclick
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kaepora
No, you can't use a#b to scroll to a location in a JSON! I just checked! :P
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sandro
deiu: the app pulls in the profile elements from different places
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cwebber2
I do wish I could watch this presentation... I suppose such things are the risks you take when you attend remotely tho :)
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elf-pavlik
kaepora++
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Loqi
kaepora has 2 karma
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eprodrom
cwebber2, you get what you pay for
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sandro
deiu: (shows network trace, where some profiles give a 403 because he's not allowed access to those, with this identity)
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Zakim
sees eprodrom on the speaker queue
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Arnaud
ack eprodrom
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Zakim
sees no one on the speaker queue
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sandro
deiu: (as intended)
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sandro
eprodrom: The user-profile --- you use schema.org, foaf, vcard, ... why didn't you use AS2.0?
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sandro
deiu: This app is older than AS 2.0
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aaronpk
I don't know if this is going to work, but it might... https://talky.io/socialwg
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tantek
not older than vcard nor hCard :P
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sandro
eprodrom: API surface? The client needs to pull a bunch of different data from different URLs
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sandro
deiu: Yes
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sandro
eprodrom: To document this API for a client developer, I'd need to document all these URLs?
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sandro
deiu: No, it's just following links.
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AnnB
aaronpk, I thought they said yesterday that the port (?) we need for talky is blocked at the INRIA firewall
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aaronpk
I'm on a VPN
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sandro
deiu: The API is just doing GETs on URLs of the resources of interest, following links. HATEOAS
hhalpin joined the channel
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sandro
tantek, it uses vcard
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AnnB
aha
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hhalpin
the rdf vcard vocabulary, which I think is compatbile with hcard
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AnnB
I get to a splash screen, and no further
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eprodrom
vcard++
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Loqi
vcard has 1 karma
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sandro
timbl: Code can following multiple links, like the older version of the vocab and the newer version. So one could convert to AS2.0 gradually, with supporting the old vocabs, too.
pfefferle joined the channel
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sandro
deiu: To build on that example, using tabulator
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Zakim
-eprodrom
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ben_thatmustbeme
but i can hear
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elf-pavlik
Zakim, who's on the call?
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Zakim
sees on the phone: INRIA, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), cwebber2
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sandro
eprodrom, you calling back?
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eprodrom
Sorry, I'm off the phone, trying to work out talky.io stuff
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cwebber2
eprodrom's still on talky at least ;)
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eprodrom
It's actually much better than the phone bridge
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cwebber2
yeah it's not bad
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AnnB
cool beans
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Zakim
+??P2
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elf-pavlik
kaepora: can you please share link to resource saying that you can't do fragment URIs in JSON? a#b ?
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sandro
deiu: I'm using tabulator as a generic skin to render the RDF data in my profile as HTML so it can display in the browser
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aaronpk
whoever is the other black screen on talky, can you mute your video? it will free up bandwidth
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elf-pavlik
q+ re: note on 'server' and 'client' side rendering e.g. JSON-LD -> RDFa https://github.com/w3c-social/social-arch/issues/1
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Zakim
sees elf-pavlik on the speaker queue