2015-05-05 UTC
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# 07:27 Zakim I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot # 07:28 Zakim sorry, sandro; could not schedule an adhoc conference; passcode overlap; if you do not have a fixed code you may try again tantek joined the channel
# 07:30 Zakim I don't understand 'move 26631 here', sandro # 07:31 Zakim I don't understand 'move conference 26631 here', sandro # 07:31 Zakim xxx is yyy - establish yyy as the name of unknown party xxx # 07:31 Zakim if yyy is 'me' or 'I', your nick is substituted # 07:31 Zakim xxx may be yyy - establish yyy as possibly the name of unknown party xxx # 07:31 Zakim I am xxx - establish your nick as the name of unknown party xxx # 07:31 Zakim xxx holds yyy [, zzz ...] - establish xxx as a group name and yyy, etc. as participants within that group # 07:31 Zakim xxx also holds yyy - add yyy to the list of participants in group xxx # 07:31 Zakim who's here? - lists the participants on the phone # 07:31 Zakim who's muted? - lists the participants who are muted # 07:31 Zakim mute xxx - mutes party xxx (like pressing 61#) # 07:31 Zakim unmute xxx - reverses the effect of "mute" and of 61# # 07:31 Zakim is xxx here? - reports whether a party named like xxx is present # 07:31 Zakim list conferences - reports the active conferences # 07:31 Zakim this is xxx - associates this channel with conference xxx # 07:31 Zakim excuse us - disconnects from the irc channel # 07:31 Zakim I last learned something new on $Date: 2013-03-03 19:18:47 $ parklize joined the channel
# 07:31 Zakim sandro, I see Team_(socwg)07:29Z in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be conf1". # 07:31 Zakim ok, sandro; I see Team_(socwg)07:29Z scheduled to start 2 minutes ago # 07:32 Zakim ok, sandro; I see Team_(socwg)07:29Z scheduled to start 3 minutes ago # 07:32 Zakim I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot # 07:32 Zakim ok, sandro; I see Team_(socwg)07:29Z scheduled to start 3 minutes ago claudio joined the channel
# 07:34 Zakim Team_(socwg)07:29Z has not yet started, Arnaud # 07:34 Zakim On IRC I see claudio, parklize, tantek, Zakim, RRSAgent, Arnaud, akuckartz, KevinMarks, shepazu, cwebber2, kaepora, deiu, elf-pavlik, Loqi, wilkie, melvster1, oshepherd, rhiaro, # 07:34 Zakim ... aaronpk, kylewm, Tsyesika, mattl, ElijahLynn, JakeHart, bret, bigbluehat, ben_thatmustbeme, dwhly, trackbot, sandro, wseltzer # 07:34 sandro cwebber2, are you calling into Zakim? The conference code is 26631 today bblfish joined the channel
# 07:36 tantek good morning #social web WG! again, lurking today, in another meeting all day. # 07:36 sandro When the INRIA conference system answers the phone (in French) can you enter the conference code 23695487# ? # 07:38 aaronpk Arnaud: plan for today is to go through two more APIs, activitypump and SoLiD rhiaro_ joined the channel
# 07:41 aaronpk posting a note to the outbox, you submit a Post activity with an object of a Note, sent to "followers" melvser1 joined the channel
# 07:41 aaronpk the server returns the entire activity with the note back, and it's added the author and publish date, and the ID of the activity and the object # 07:42 aaronpk Sandro: do you need the @type collection on the "to" object? Yes # 07:42 cwebber2 ok, I can't dial in since the conference is restricted, so I'll just follow via text # 07:43 aaronpk Tsyesika: the API requires you to specify the type, we could see about removing the requirement # 07:43 aaronpk ...to "to" is specifying the audience, not adding something to the collection, different from it being the target # 07:44 aaronpk ...the server would lok at everyone you sent it to (the followers), and send it out to the inbox of everyone in the followers collection AnnB joined the channel
# 07:44 sandro yeah, she's mostly facing the screen, which is facing away from you # 07:45 aaronpk ... there are two URLs involved here, the user's outbox "feed" and the "followers" akuckartz_ joined the channel
# 07:45 aaronpk Tsyesika: kind of, it's audience targeting but if the account is private then it acts as access control # 07:46 aaronpk Arnaud: can you tell us about the backend of distributing to the followers? # 07:46 aaronpk Tsyesika: it iterates through all the followers asynchronously and sends the full activity object to the inbox of everyone # 07:47 aaronpk Arnaud: so there are two resources that got created, one for the note itself, and one for the acitvity # 07:48 aaronpk Tsyesika: for updating a note, you specify the same note object but there's a new activity ID # 07:50 aaronpk sandro: if the following collection changes tomorrow, who has access to the previous notes? # 07:50 aaronpk Tsyesika: if I were to write the spec now, it would be available to the people who were in the collection at the time it was posted # 07:51 aaronpk sandro: so I could update the note and send the update to a different set of people? # 07:51 aaronpk elf-pavlik: i'll make an issue for clarifying the ACL # 07:51 aaronpk Tsyesika: deletion, creating a deletion activity specifying the ID of the note the_frey joined the channel
# 07:52 aaronpk ... a shell of the note remains at the original URL, which includes the deleted date. i'm going to open an issue to remove the publish/update dates from the deleted note shepazu_ joined the channel
# 07:55 sandro (To be more specific, the ACL issue is: how do the acls of a Note related to the recipient lists of the various activities which create/update that note) # 07:55 cwebber2 fyi it's totally cutting in and out so if someone addresss me I won't hear it # 07:57 wseltzer cwebber2 should we try moving the phone? # 07:58 cwebber2 we're entering into a user story I wrote up last night without being able to coordinate with Tsyesika # 07:58 cwebber2 and some of this behavior is different than the pump api # 07:59 wseltzer cwebber2, any better? # 08:00 aaronpk Arnaud: the first step was the act of following, the second was the distribution of adding an activity? # 08:01 aaronpk Tsyesika: Delano posts a "follow" activity to his server with an object of Beth # 08:01 aaronpk elf-pavlik: what side effects does this have? it's a delivery mechanism and also changing the collection claudio joined the channel
# 08:02 aaronpk ... the server needs to know the "inbox" endpoint for beth, so it can go discover the endpoints # 08:03 aaronpk cwebber2: btw some of this has changed from the pump API to activitypump at the request of the group, including the jsonld embedded in the HTML # 08:03 aaronpk ... one of the options we discussde was whether we should embed jsonld into the html, but there are other options, we could embed microformats or rdfa into the document # 08:04 aaronpk ... so we have not actually made decisions on this # 08:04 aaronpk ... were previously using webfinger but the group decided not tu ose webfinger # 08:04 aaronpk Tsyesika: so this is still an open issue for doing the URL discovery AnnB joined the channel
# 08:06 aaronpk aaronpk: can you clarify the "public" id in the "to" # 08:06 aaronpk Tsyesika: this is a special URL that means the public collection # 08:07 cwebber2 the target stuff is still in the editor's draft has to: cc: bcc: # 08:08 cwebber2 it doesn't seem like it's gelled yet, even in the document # 08:08 aaronpk Tsyesika: pump.io uses primary and secondary audiences extensively, so i'm skeptical of getting rid of them # 08:08 aaronpk elf-pavlik: what's the difference with using "to" and specifying a secondary audience, vs just using target # 08:09 aaronpk Tsyesika: having a "to" of the public URL is essentially saying it's not to anyone, it's to everyone # 08:10 aaronpk elf-pavlik: so why use the "to: inbox" why not just "target: my outbox" # 08:11 aaronpk Tsyesika: mainly because this is how all audience targeting works to avoid a special case for this # 08:12 cwebber2 elf-pavlik, public collections are a "special collection", there could be a different convention to have the stream # 08:12 cwebber2 but the convention is currently deliver to collections or users # 08:12 aaronpk bblfish: so the problem is in this case, the "id" is not derefencable so the code needs to special-case this all the time # 08:13 aaronpk ...okay now this is delano looking at his inbox, he sees the post made by beth of the image, and presumably more activities below # 08:13 aaronpk ... unfollowing someone, they make another acitivty to their outbox, delano unfollowing beth # 08:13 aaronpk .. the object is the person, send to beth and cc the public URL # 08:14 aaronpk Tsyesika: there is a suggestion for using the "undo" activity with the object of the activity you want to undo # 08:15 aaronpk ... so in this case the user is removed from the followers collection # 08:15 aaronpk bblfish: in some ways there's a similarity between micropub, which is that this is also not restful # 08:16 aaronpk Tsyesika: we do specify an alternative way of doing this, you do a PUT to any object # 08:16 aaronpk ... and has a side effect of generating the update activity timbl joined the channel
# 08:16 aaronpk ... in some reasearch evan did, most people were posting activities # 08:17 aaronpk ... but we do make allowances for that in the specification # 08:17 cwebber2 evan looking into it was also partly prompted by tantek requesting possibly dropping it down to GET/POST only # 08:17 wseltzer cwebber2, good to hear! eprodrom joined the channel
# 08:19 cwebber2 activitypump is the socialwg iteration of the pump api ;) # 08:20 aaronpk ... looking at the inbox. this is where activitypump diverges from pump.io # 08:20 aaronpk ... pumpio has a specific comment type, so when you're posting a reply you're posting a comment, which is like a note hhalpin joined the channel
# 08:20 aaronpk ... but in activitypump we don't have a comment type, you just post any object, and add an inReplyTo # 08:21 eprodrom That's not true # 08:21 eprodrom Arnaud: I thought we were starting at 9:30 this morning again # 08:22 hhalpin evanpro - the Zakim code is: 26631 # 08:22 eprodrom pump.io API doesn't require a specific type # 08:22 eprodrom hhalpin: thanks bblfish joined the channel
# 08:22 aaronpk Tsyesika: I apologize to evan if I made a mistake # 08:23 hhalpin ok, regardless ActivityPump does have quite a few differences - evanpro, you may want to list them. # 08:23 hhalpin In particular, re dependencies on the rest of the "Ostatus" stack # 08:23 AnnB Tseysika invites eprodrom to clarify # 08:24 eprodrom Which, about the comment type? # 08:24 hhalpin and clarify at some point what you think is crucial to keep and what dependencies you could live without. For example, didn't Google stop producing webfinger? # 08:24 aaronpk Tsyesika: you can if you wish to a GET on the user's outbox to see the activities they've done which is what's in this example # 08:25 aaronpk ... those are the user stories we got done last night, hopefully that gives you an idea # 08:25 aaronpk ... it seems that access control is a big difference # 08:26 elf-pavlik Arnaud: looks like IndieWeb doesn't have ACL - looking at ActivityPump approach # 08:26 elf-pavlik aaronpk: we experiment with with it and it may work similar to ActivityPump # 08:26 elf-pavlik aaronpk: sending private not has some experiments but we still work on it hhalpin_ joined the channel
# 08:28 aaronpk cwebber2: pubsubhubbub is push-style, not sure what you mean # 08:28 cwebber2 aaronpk, right, I meant that it's push-style *like* pubsubhubbub, but it isn't *using* pubsubhubbib, sorry # 08:29 aaronpk Tsyesika: you submit the file with the image content type, you get back the image ID # 08:29 aaronpk ...then you can submit an activity with the photo object # 08:29 Zakim sees hhalpin_, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 08:30 aaronpk ...i'm not thrilled about having several requests, I like how indieweb did it where you submit just one request with all the metadata you want # 08:30 aaronpk ... we don't have any provisions right now for specifying a title when uploading the photo right now, so you have to do it in multiple requests # 08:30 Zakim sees hhalpin_, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 08:30 Zakim sees eprodrom, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue # 08:30 Zakim sees eprodrom, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue # 08:30 aaronpk hhalpin_: quick note on the ACL point, I thought we had some stories about access control, but maybe not ones that we all agreed on had it # 08:31 aaronpk ... so it would be great to get it working, but if we can't even get public working then we shouldn't do access control # 08:31 aaronpk ... So in terms of activiitypump, it's nice that it's the one that's closest that maps to AS2.0 # 08:31 aaronpk ... if you're looking to converge with the indieweb aapproach, what is your take on the form encoding # 08:31 aaronpk Tsyesika: there's lots of nested stuff, but they get around it by posting stuff individualyand referencing it by ID # 08:32 aaronpk ... that'd work, but i'm not huge on making lots of requests # 08:32 aaronpk ... i'm not necessarily against form encoding, but JSON has its merits, and especially JSONLD given its extensibility # 08:32 eprodrom I have the answer, call on me # 08:32 aaronpk eprodrom: it's entirely possible, we had a mechanism in pump.io to include the image in the json encoded upload # 08:33 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, bblfish on the speaker queue # 08:33 aaronpk ... it's less popular because you have to do some encoding in the JSON upload, so people like the double post more often # 08:33 hhalpin_ I'm trying to map the "big" differences and see where we can get consensus on the larger whole. # 08:33 aaronpk ... i'd also point out that the double-post mechanism comes from the atompub protocol # 08:33 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, bblfish, aaronpk on the speaker queue # 08:34 aaronpk eprodrom: there is a mechanism in pump.io that didn't make it into activitypump, to encode a binary object in JSON, so if it's needed we can pull it over # 08:34 aaronpk ... the other option is the double post mechanism # 08:34 Zakim elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss sidefects # 08:34 Zakim sees bblfish, aaronpk on the speaker queue # 08:36 cwebber2 elf-pavlik: it could be viewed in an RDF type graph as well that's probably true # 08:36 aaronpk elf-pavlik: posting the as:follow activity has the side effect of adding the :follows edge # 08:36 hhalpin_ Arnaud, you may want to mention the IBM testing effort for ActivityStreams about now # 08:37 eprodrom elf-pavlik: is the point that we'd have to test the behaviour? # 08:38 Zakim sees bblfish, aaronpk on the speaker queue # 08:38 aaronpk Tsyesika: when you submit a folow activity, twot hings happne. the activity is federated to the audience, and the user is added to the followers collection # 08:38 aaronpk ... so in the future, when you post to the followers collection as the audience, it will also federate to the new person # 08:39 hhalpin_ What is difficult about testing the side-effects (i.e. input->outputs)? # 08:39 aaronpk eprodrom: i think elf's point is that we don't have all those side effects listed out under the follow activity # 08:39 aaronpk ... we should probably do that for each of these activities # 08:39 hhalpin_ +1 be clearer about the input/outputs but bugs will be worked out in test-suite # 08:39 eprodrom "The Follow activity is used to subscribe to the activities of another user. Once the user has followed a user, activities shared with the Follows of that user SHOULD be added to the actors's inbox." # 08:40 aaronpk bblfish: LDP also doesn't know how to do multiple files in one go # 08:41 cwebber2 multiple files is an interesting motivation for the file endpoint # 08:41 aaronpk ... couldn't activithypump also use multipart uploads? # 08:41 aaronpk Arnaud: currently LDP1.0 spec doesn't talk abotu how to optimize this kind of operation, you have to deal with every resource independelty # 08:41 aaronpk .. there have been discussions about how to optimize the traffic # 08:42 aaronpk ... there was some ealier draft that allowed it, there were questions about the details, so we took it out, now it's on the wishlist # 08:42 aaronpk ... we just discussed the priority items for LDP, it was selected to allow that for the read, but not for the write # 08:42 aaronpk ... it's not clear that the next version will allow to post multiple things inthe same operation # 08:43 aaronpk Arnaud: people are welcome to express their opinion here whether that's a priority # 08:43 elf-pavlik aaronpk: i want to talk about Harrys question about convergence of APIs # 08:43 rhiaro_ aaronpk: I wanted to talk about quesiton of converging apis # 08:43 bblfish yes @sandro but there is also the list of 6 items that are being proposed for LDP next charter. that is more important # 08:44 rhiaro_ ... In activitypump you're always creating an activity that references an object, but in micropub you only create an object and no explicity activity # 08:44 rhiaro_ ... trying to make those match up is more than dealing with nested objects # 08:44 rhiaro_ ... it would take something like making micropub create activities vs objects, or having the activitypump api create the activities as a side effect of the object, rather than explicitly creating activities # 08:44 sandro bblfish, sure, it's all up to there ACTUALLY being a sufficient community to do this. # 08:44 rhiaro_ harry: do developers find it easier to work with activities or objects directly? # 08:45 rhiaro_ aaronpk: from what I've seen creating objects directly has been extremely straightfoward # 08:45 rhiaro_ ... but i haven't talked to a lot of people who are creating activitystreams posts # 08:45 rhiaro_ ... activities are subject verb object type things # 08:45 bblfish yes, indeed but there should be a list of approved stories, so that those who are do not see their story in the wishlist, can at least drum up support :-) Ie. we need a diff # 08:45 elf-pavlik q+ re: shortly lon side effects in MicroPub, ActivityPump and LDP # 08:45 Zakim sees eprodrom, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue # 08:45 rhiaro_ ... activities very much how yo'd construct a sentence timbl joined the channel
# 08:46 rhiaro_ ... It's not too difficult for developers to work with activities. Just personal preference, one isn't easier or harder # 08:46 eprodrom Hey, the conference bridge is a mess # 08:46 eprodrom Am I the only one who can't hear anything, cwebber2 ? # 08:46 bblfish yes, indeed but there should be a list of approved LDP next desires, so that those who are do not see their desire in the LDP next, can at least drum up support :-) Ie. we need a diff # 08:46 cwebber2 eprodrom: it's been the hard the whole time, believe it or not it's better than it was ;\ # 08:46 rhiaro_ Arnaud: aaron's point is that the significat difference between the two approaches is activities are implied and maybe reconstructed if you need to, whereas here they're explicitly stated and created as independant resources # 08:46 Zakim sees eprodrom, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue # 08:46 eprodrom Developers overwhelmingly prefer the activity style # 08:47 Zakim sees on the phone: INRIA, cwebber2, eprodrom # 08:47 eprodrom I know, because your phone is all messed up # 08:47 eprodrom We had about an OOM difference between object-style and activity-stle # 08:47 kaepora (Sorry I'm late: I'd like to repeat my offer to have a "crypto Q&A session" today so I can help as the invited observer who works in crypto) # 08:47 aaronpk eprodrom: with pump.io we have an order of magnitude difference between people doing operations on activityies vs creating objects directly # 08:48 eprodrom I can't hear, have to wait for the scribe # 08:48 eprodrom Is there a way to fix the phone there? # 08:48 sandro we can try hanging up and dialing again, I guess # 08:48 bblfish we need a cofee break to fix it. What is the problem you are experienceing @eprodrom ? # 08:48 cwebber2 eprodrom, could you clarify, was it that you had an experience with an overwhelming number of developers having preference # 08:48 aaronpk sandro: i think you were saying you tried both approaches and people preferred one? # 08:49 eprodrom Yes, from pump.io logs # 08:49 AnnB you guys can't hear anything? # 08:49 eprodrom I can barely hear # 08:49 sandro cwebber2, it was working earlier, right? did it stop at some point? # 08:49 aaronpk we didn't change anything, we're just going to have to speak loudly # 08:49 hhalpin_ we could always switch to talky.io # 08:50 sandro it's just a long room, so some people aren't near the speakerphone. # 08:50 cwebber2 anyway, maybe eprodrom should be able to reply to that point before we do any connect/disconnect dance? # 08:50 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, cwebber on the speaker queue # 08:50 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, cwebber, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 08:51 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 08:51 rhiaro_ eprodrom: did you mean people use posting of activities more than PUT and DELETE on objects? # 08:52 Arnaud eprodrom, can you please expaned a bit on what you meant # 08:52 eprodrom Let's just go to break, I'm sorry pfefferle joined the channel
# 08:52 sandro is there something you want us to do during the break? # 08:53 aaronpk eprodrom: yeah we did a big log scan based on a question from tantek. we had about 10x more people using activities endpoints posting update and delete activities ranther than PUT and DELETE on objects # 08:53 aaronpk eprodrom: i'd like to talk about differences between activitypump and pump.io api # 08:54 aaronpk ... there's a notify method, pump.io uses a regular webhooks mechanism, the other is activitypump requires https IDs for objects and pump.io allows any ID for objects # 08:54 aaronpk ... the requiement for https IDs came in from activitypump # 08:54 aaronpk Tsyesika: there's an issue open about both things, most of those are things left from how oshepherd wanted it, and I just didn't change it # 08:54 hhalpin_ so maybe dropping those HTTP IDs might be possible. # 08:55 aaronpk ... i'm more than open to having less stringent requirement for IDs, I don't think requiring TLS on URIs is necessary # 08:55 hhalpin_ that would probably make people happier re convergence # 08:55 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, hhalpin_ on the speaker queue # 08:55 rhiaro_ people using activities endpoint over PUT on objects could be a preference for endpoints over restful, not necessarily activities over objects (cc Tsyesika, eprodrom, cwebber2) # 08:55 Zakim elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss shortly lon side effects in MicroPub, ActivityPump and LDP # 08:56 aaronpk elf-pavlik: activitypump seems heavy on side effects, LDP seems light on side effects # 08:56 aaronpk ...the user posts a file is a great story to demonstrate side effects # 08:56 aaronpk ... if we all compare this story we can talk more about the side effects # 08:56 aaronpk Arnaud: i thinkwe can defer that discussion to later # 08:56 aaronpk ... the plan is next to talk about the similar stories with SoLID, the rest of the day is about talking about how they compare # 08:57 aaronpk hhalpin_: we are at inria, the world top center for TLS and web security stuff... # 08:57 aaronpk ... i'm going to talk with the researchers here, if people wanted to do a brief security session, maybe people would be interested # 08:57 KevinMarks hm, the dev pref for activities seen on pump could be because those are theire esamples # 08:58 hhalpin_ should we do a crypto or TLS session? # 08:58 hhalpin_ I'll ask Karthik what his schedule is, but Nadim could also do it. # 08:58 aaronpk Arnaud: let's take a break for now, 10-15 minutes then look at SoLiD # 08:59 AnnB bye, cwebber2 ... if you're going # 08:59 eprodrom Tsyesika: I just found out that SUBSCRIBE/NOTIFY is an existing model in WebDAV # 08:59 cwebber2 I meant, the call was dropping in and out of my ability to hear :) # 09:00 AnnB ah yes .. they're rebooting phone I think # 09:00 eprodrom Tsyesika: also, great job! # 09:00 Tsyesika eprodrom: thanks! sorry about the few mistakes i made >.< # 09:00 eprodrom Tsyesika: yes, sorry about my outburst # 09:00 eprodrom With pump.io, the "comment" type isn't required for a response # 09:00 eprodrom Any in-reply-to response will work # 09:00 AnnB pretty mild, if that was an outburst! # 09:01 cwebber2 anyway, I knew Tsyesika was the right person to present on the subject # 09:01 eprodrom However, I think the Web UI will barf if it sees something besides a comment there # 09:01 eprodrom Yes, fantastic # 09:01 cwebber2 Tsyesika: I think you did a clearer job of presenting on the spec than I would have! # 09:01 eprodrom Did you ever hear back from Owen Shephard? # 09:01 eprodrom Also, misspelled # 09:02 eprodrom Your last name # 09:02 eprodrom Hooray that you are here oshepherd # 09:03 oshepherd I commented a couple of weeks back on verb vs object orientation... My conclusion was that the only difference here between indieweb and ActivityStreams *in practice* was the "post"/"share" verbs which IMO are very contentless (and I'd actually prefer ActivityStreams without them, because in practice they're - specifically the post verb - a huge source of problems in pump.io # 09:05 oshepherd Specifically the problem is that you really want the audience attached to the object, but it ends up attached to the post tantek joined the channel
# 09:05 oshepherd Anyway, on the subject of mandatory TLS: I'll note that the both Google, Mozilla and I believe the W3C itself have announced an intent to deprecate HTTP (non-S) # 09:06 eprodrom I like a SHOULD but I'm less crazy about a MUST # 09:06 eprodrom I also like Webfinger # 09:06 eprodrom But I understand that the requirement for dereferenceable URIs makes that more complex # 09:07 oshepherd I haven't had a chance to catch up with Tsyesika's changes, but I did keep Webfinger *just* for the use case of translating user@domain identities # 09:07 eprodrom (We have to drag in the Webfinger spec) # 09:07 eprodrom Oh, I think it's out now # 09:08 eprodrom elf-pavlik: I find it funny that you talk about the update to the social graph as a "side effect" # 09:08 eprodrom It seems like the primary intent of posting a "follow" activity # 09:08 oshepherd Theres a whole lot of social platforms out there today using such identities - StatusNet, PumpIO, Diaspora, more traditional things like XMPP, even email. I don't think we can say "Sorry, you have to throw away all your user IDs" to them # 09:08 eprodrom I see your point # 09:09 eprodrom But I think there's something to be said for consistency too # 09:09 eprodrom (I prefer keeping the Webfinger ID, btw) # 09:09 oshepherd But I very much kept WebFinger use minimal - its' just "take an acct URI and translate it into the URI of an ActivityStreams profile document" - and if your IDs aren't in acct: form, you don't need to implement a server # 09:11 eprodrom All of which is to say # 09:11 eprodrom Tsyesika += 1,000,000 # 09:12 eprodrom Actually I guess in Python that'd be # 09:12 eprodrom Tsyesika = Tsyesika + 1000000 # 09:12 eprodrom I usually assume that if a particular syntax element is convenient Python prudishly disallows it # 09:14 oshepherd I spend most of my time coding in SystemVerilog these days which is the mother of not-at-all convinient Gabriel_Lachmann joined the channel
# 09:15 oshepherd (No, SystemVerilog, nobody wanted their function's member variables to default static. But that's enough ranting about SystemVerilog :-)) # 09:15 eprodrom OK, I will pipe down then # 09:16 eprodrom Tsyesika, it looks like AS2.0 doesn't even have a "comment" type # 09:16 eprodrom Which is probably good # 09:16 eprodrom I've never been a big fan # 09:16 Tsyesika eprodrom: yeah we use "Note" type as an example of what i'd use a "comment" in pump.io for # 09:17 rhiaro_ Arnaud: we have all afternoon, if we don't get through before lunch we can go on after bblfish and akuckartz joined the channel
# 09:19 rhiaro_ deiu: will start with most basic example, create edit and delete a note # 09:19 rhiaro_ ... then henry's going to go over two more complex examples, profile editing and access control stuff # 09:20 rhiaro_ ... So SoLiD uses LDP to create new resources and manage resources # 09:20 rhiaro_ ... This makes it really easy for people who are used to a restful way of doing things # 09:20 rhiaro_ ... compared to previous examples, we're not using an endpoint to post new data, but creating data inside a container that is used to store similar types of resources # 09:20 oshepherd Tsyesika: Using the NOTIFY element is supremely elegant. It's also quite likely to be a supreme pain in the ass, so I'd say go ahead and replace it with POST. # 09:21 rhiaro_ ... just to give you an impression of how simple they are # 09:21 Zakim sees eprodrom, aaronpk on the speaker queue # 09:21 rhiaro_ ... What we're doing is sending a post request with slug header, and data containing actual note. Uses activitystreams terms to describe note # 09:22 oshepherd Tsyesika, as for HTTPS, maybe table this one for later. By the time any spec becomes a REC, I expect Lets Encrypt should make TLS certs trivially available # 09:22 eprodrom Could you speak up, please, deiu ? # 09:22 rhiaro_ sandro: we haven't implmeented anything that uses that # 09:22 rhiaro_ deiu: we don't have an app that consumes AS2.0 data # 09:22 rhiaro_ ... the point is to demonstrate how you create and modify data # 09:22 rhiaro_ timbl: you can do it with a client without the server knowing anything # 09:23 rhiaro_ deiu: What the server returns is a Location header which has the full URI of the new resource # 09:23 rhiaro_ ... Second step is to correct/complete the note that was sent before # 09:23 rhiaro_ ... Client needs to update existing resource with the new data # 09:23 rhiaro_ ... uses URI of new resource, that you get back in the Location header # 09:23 Tsyesika oshepherd: might be good to write that on the issue just so evan can respond, i am not against lowering the requirements but i'm also not really bothered by it either but it seems evan is # 09:24 rhiaro_ ... Second way of doing is to send an HTTP PATCH with a SPARQL UPDATE # 09:24 rhiaro_ ... in which you modify only the bit of information you want to change # 09:24 AnnB phone people ... are you still having trouble hearing? # 09:24 eprodrom Yes, it's just fading in and out # 09:24 rhiaro_ ... We should probably add PATCH but it's not relevant to this group # 09:24 eprodrom I think the speaker needs to be louder or closer to the phone # 09:24 rhiaro_ sandro: PATCH is subject to conneg. The one here is implemented, but there's a w3c rec for a different patch format # 09:25 rhiaro_ ... HTTP operation on the resource itself (DELETE) # 09:25 Zakim sees eprodrom, aaronpk on the speaker queue # 09:26 Zakim sees aaronpk, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue # 09:26 rhiaro_ eprodrom: social software often when you're posting a note, you would send it somewhere, like the inbox of followers or mentions inbox of person mentioned # 09:27 rhiaro_ ... So side effect wouldn't happen server side, has to happen client side # 09:27 rhiaro_ deiu: yes, everything happens in the client. Client is charged to send notification to someone's inbox # 09:27 rhiaro_ ... or you could have additional app-specific service which listens to changes on containers # 09:27 rhiaro_ ... then based on changes on containers like new resource created, could trigger app-specific processes # 09:28 elf-pavlik ACTION: pelf create comparison of side effects approach in MicroPub, ActivityPump and SoLiD # 09:28 trackbot Created ACTION-61 - Create comparison of side effects approach in micropub, activitypump and solid [on Pavlik elf - due 2015-05-12]. # 09:28 rhiaro_ ... twitter members have millions or tens of millions of follows, would not be scaleable to have client distribute note to millinos of inboxes # 09:28 Zakim sees aaronpk, elf-pavlik, bblfish on the speaker queue # 09:28 rhiaro_ ... and if two different clients do it differently you don't have a very consisten social experience # 09:28 rhiaro_ ... so if there is a way to have a consistant side effect that provides these sorts of features in ldp that would be interesting # 09:29 Zakim sees aaronpk, elf-pavlik, bblfish, melvser on the speaker queue # 09:29 rhiaro_ ... has a websocket interface for all it's resources # 09:29 rhiaro_ ... you could have a service which listens on a websocket which has subscribed to that container, which can process all the data that gets into the container # 09:29 rhiaro_ timbl: which works for hundreds of thousands of people # 09:30 rhiaro_ eprodrom: if you come check yoru inbox in the morning and want to see all the stuff that happened since yesterday, has to be some kind of application process, or you can leave a websocket open all night # 09:30 rhiaro_ ... so websocket interesting for online updates, but not distirbution # 09:30 rhiaro_ deiu: distribution happens by a service, like a pubsub service # 09:30 rhiaro_ ... that listens to data and upates all its subscribers # 09:30 elf-pavlik ACTION: pelf document possible danger of malicious apps when moving more responsibilities to clients # 09:30 trackbot Created ACTION-62 - Document possible danger of malicious apps when moving more responsibilities to clients [on Pavlik elf - due 2015-05-12]. # 09:31 rhiaro_ ... there are different use cases. LDP spec defines generic protocol to create and update and find resources # 09:31 rhiaro_ ... but there are different types of servers that can implement LDP # 09:31 rhiaro_ ... there is what we refer to as (??) applications # 09:31 Zakim sees aaronpk, elf-pavlik, bblfish on the speaker queue # 09:31 rhiaro_ ... you send bits, they store, you ask and they return # 09:31 rhiaro_ ... Other peopel use LDP with very application specific servers # 09:31 rhiaro_ ... for example, IBM uses LDP in the context of application lifecycle management # 09:32 rhiaro_ ... LDP is a thin layer put on the top of legacy software # 09:32 rhiaro_ ... in this case when you create a resource using LDP you create something with very specific semantics, and has application specific side effects # 09:32 rhiaro_ ... possible to imagine in this case youc ould hasl have an application specifi cserver, with side effects like distribution and notifications and things like that # 09:32 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, bblfish on the speaker queue # 09:33 rhiaro_ aaronpk: about slug - is that meant to be a unique slug per note, or a namespace where multiple things go? # 09:33 eprodrom rhiaro_: thanks for scribing so well # 09:33 rhiaro_ deiu: a hint on how you want URI to end up looking # 09:33 rhiaro_ Arnaud: that's not specific to LDP, there's an RFC on slug # 09:33 rhiaro_ aaronpk: Ok. Other thing - you do or do not have implementations consuming the data? # 09:34 rhiaro_ ... we don't have an implementation that consumes AS # 09:34 Zakim elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss request for Social WG oriented view on SoLid # 09:34 trackbot action-61 -- Pavlik elf to Create comparison of side effects approach in micropub, activitypump and solid -- due 2015-05-12 -- OPEN # 09:34 rhiaro_ elf-pavlik: for the side-effects I created action-61 # 09:34 rhiaro_ ... I don't think it's enough to just have this in minutes # 09:35 rhiaro_ ... Also I'm going to request on SoLiD repo that we can have a social web perspect # 09:35 rhiaro_ ... eg. using json-ld first instead of turtle, etc # 09:35 rhiaro_ ... whoever wants to work on it with me, can help # 09:35 sandro q+ to say I'd like webmention to be part of vanilla LDP # 09:35 Zakim sees bblfish, sandro on the speaker queue # 09:35 rhiaro_ timbl: do you think making it a live switchabe document, switching example format between json-ld and turtle is good? Or document rewritten? # 09:36 rhiaro_ elf-pavlik: I think some things like with sparql updates, some peopel won't even want to go there # 09:36 eprodrom elf-pavlik: That's true # 09:36 rhiaro_ deiu: sparql and ldp patch or whatever else have been added as alternatives # 09:36 eprodrom My eyes just skip over those options # 09:36 rhiaro_ elf-pavlik: make it clear we don't HAVE to use these # 09:37 AnnB what do you mean, eprodrom, that your "eyes skip over those options"? # 09:37 rhiaro_ bblfish: it woudl be extremely useful for LDP or this group, to have some way for any resource to be able to say I want to subscribe to this resource so you can say you want to see any changes on a document. Could be really generic # 09:37 Zakim sees sandro, claudio on the speaker queue # 09:37 rhiaro_ ... would work like activitystreams, could poitn to another collection somewhere else # 09:37 eprodrom When there's a section of SoLiD like, "Or, you could do a SPARQL query like this..." # 09:37 rhiaro_ ... the resource itself on the server could post notification changes # 09:37 rhiaro_ ... we could solve the problem mentione don the phone # 09:38 rhiaro_ Arnaud: there are discussions about this in LDPNext about being able to keep track of changes to resources and be notfied # 09:38 rhiaro_ ... you can have an optimal way of knowing what has changed # 09:38 AnnB does that mean it's not useful to you, or it's not actually functioninng, or ...?? # 09:38 rhiaro_ ... instead of having to fetch the whole resource and figure it out # 09:38 rhiaro_ ... you can use patch format to tell you what has changed. Possible in future of LDP # 09:38 Zakim sandro, you wanted to say I'd like webmention to be part of vanilla LDP # 09:39 rhiaro_ AnnB some people are allergic to rdf and sparql :) # 09:39 eprodrom AnnB: It's not useful to me, and mentioning it in the spec is less helpful # 09:39 rhiaro_ sandro: what would solve that is if webmention were standardise and LDP incorporate that # 09:39 Zakim sees claudio, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 09:39 rhiaro_ ... assumign you can have massive webmention servers. Offloads from client and puts in normal server infrastructure # 09:40 rhiaro_ claudio: from my commercial point of view, most of the use cases are around personas rather than topics # 09:40 rhiaro_ ... but we have uses cases where it's important to people to stream content, to interact over topics instead of among each other # 09:40 AnnB so eprodrom, is that specific to rdf and sparql, or all of the linked data stuff? # 09:40 rhiaro_ ... If we have a streaming event like a movie, we are really interested in seeing what people are thinking about a topic # 09:40 eprodrom AnnB: it's actually more editorial about the document # 09:40 rhiaro_ ... we are forseeing technologies for adapting streaming content to people's mood etc. So critical to happen realtime. I wonder if these technical solutions would cover it # 09:41 eprodrom There's one clear and simple way to get a task done, then a few other options that are less clear and less simple # 09:41 rhiaro_ ... As far as I understand most silos are consumer oriented. In twitter you can provide a topic and see how people react to that # 09:41 rhiaro_ ... We are using webRTC, there's a lot to do, to provide personalised video streams # 09:41 AnnB altho I still don't truly understand the nuance of your comment # 09:41 rhiaro_ claudio: yes but we dont' want to rely on twitter # 09:41 rhiaro_ ... intresting example with virtual product placement, or virtual notification of live streaming events # 09:41 rhiaro_ ... We are not sure we can model it with most of these decentralised solutions # 09:42 eprodrom claudio: there are two options # 09:42 Zakim sees eprodrom, cwebber on the speaker queue # 09:42 AnnB fyi, Claudio is from Telecom Italia # 09:42 eprodrom ben_thatmustbeme: for me too # 09:42 rhiaro_ Arnaud: do we have user stories that get close to this? # 09:42 rhiaro_ bblfish: we have a bug database that is content oriented # 09:43 rhiaro_ ... interaction on an object not on a [person] community comes around the object # 09:43 rhiaro_ sandro: hashtags are harder, they don't have identifiers timbl joined the channel
# 09:43 rhiaro_ claudio: we are looking at things in Telecom Italia, in talks with netflix, they're using product placement for funding content # 09:44 rhiaro_ ... customise content basedon what people are saying in realtime # 09:44 aaronpk yeah we really need external mics for the phone because the people on the ends of the table are super hard to hear # 09:44 ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2, eprodrom, again, don't use ':' or you are speaking for me. I thought you had to be scribe for that to happen, but sandro indicated otherwise # 09:44 eprodrom ben_thatmustbeme, sorry # 09:44 rhiaro_ ... we rely on twitter for now because we don't have an open decentralised solution for this # 09:44 aaronpk wait really? I thought that only applied to the scribe. uhoh. # 09:45 Zakim sees eprodrom, cwebber on the speaker queue # 09:45 cwebber2 ben_thatmustbeme, sorry, it's my client default to use : # 09:45 rhiaro_ my client uses : too, I thought it was IRC standard # 09:45 rhiaro_ sandro: we had a hashtags user stories, was -1 because it's too hard # 09:46 AnnB (I called his attention to your comment, KevinMarks, about streaming vs download) # 09:46 rhiaro_ elf-pavlik: could observe if something is otu of scope and check if something might block it in the future and flag it # 09:46 rhiaro_ ... and we can do our best to take that into account # 09:46 rhiaro_ claudio: I wonder if takign it into accoutn could make it easier if we decide we want to handle it # 09:46 cwebber2 I guess it doesn't, at least, when someone takes over for scribing # 09:46 rhiaro_ ... I understand standardising hashtags is not easy eprodrom_ joined the channel
# 09:47 Zakim sees eprodrom, cwebber on the speaker queue # 09:47 rhiaro_ bblfish: a company taht did a bookmarking service, you could bookmark things and when you typed a word they would do a text analysis, then find dpbedia concepts and URIs that were related to concepts in the page # 09:47 rhiaro_ ... it looks to the user like a hashtag, but behind is the semantics of dpbedia and URIs # 09:47 rhiaro_ ^^ bbc does that to help journalists tag news articles # 09:48 eprodrom_ Are we still talking about the media monitoring? # 09:48 rhiaro_ timbl: there are some structured hashtags, some are totally random # 09:48 eprodrom_ Could we maybe get back to the social API agenda? # 09:48 KevinMarks autocomplete is fine, estatign the tag the user assigned isn't # 09:48 eprodrom_ Arnaud, are we on-topic? # 09:48 eprodrom_ I'd like to talk about SoLiD # 09:49 rhiaro_ ... concerned that notifications like webmention might be useful, but in other ones there's a more complex effect in executing a social action # 09:49 rhiaro_ ... eg a follow action would update the actor's following list # 09:50 rhiaro_ ... and distribute follow action to serveral inboxes # 09:50 rhiaro_ ... so I'm not sure this is just about notification # 09:50 rhiaro_ ... again, it's all entirely possible to do these using polling # 09:50 rhiaro_ ... you could poll every list of every social graph then add reverse pointers akuckartz joined the channel
# 09:51 rhiaro_ ... if we use SoLiD we're goign to have to put a lot of burden on the client which is unfair to the client and likely to generate a lot of errors # 09:51 rhiaro_ ... or we're going to have to limit ourselves to very simple social interactions # 09:51 timbl One could use (coincidentally) a distributed hash table for coordonating people interested in hashtags. The problem is a bit like the NNTP newsgroup distribution problem, as newsgroup names and hashtags are bothe basicallt arbitrary short strings. # 09:51 trackbot action-61 -- Pavlik elf to Create comparison of side effects approach in micropub, activitypump and solid -- due 2015-05-12 -- OPEN # 09:52 rhiaro_ cwebber2: I'm curious what happens in terms of how much link rot impacts this system, especially if you end up having commuincation with someone else and their whole site goes down? How does that affect yoru local record of your interaction with them? And also resolving information about that? # 09:52 rhiaro_ ... curious about what ends up happening when somebody else's server goes down # 09:52 eprodrom_ timbl, you could also have one or more aggregation servers # 09:52 rhiaro_ deiu: how is this specific to solid? will affect any decentralised service? AnnB_ joined the channel
# 09:53 rhiaro_ cwebber2: if my mail server goes down you can't send me email. You still have access to all the email you have from me # 09:53 rhiaro_ ... I'm not making a comment, this is a real question # 09:53 sandro As Evan said: -1. I think search is probably difficult to do for this API. Maybe a separate API? --Evan Prodromou (talk) 16:02, 18 February 2015 (UTC) # 09:53 rhiaro_ sandro: we don't address that yet, the answer is to use caching proxies or archiving services where I access your site through something that keeps a copie # 09:53 KevinMarks to put it another way, hashtags works precisely because they don't have namespaces; thus forcing convergence # 09:53 rhiaro_ deiu: in a decentralised system, there are two ways to shuffle information around # 09:54 rhiaro_ ... either you push notifications to people directly to their own servers # 09:54 rhiaro_ ... or you wait for them to poll your feed/outbox of notifications and everyone gets theirs when they want # 09:54 rhiaro_ ... you could have feed of activities which you fill in whenever an action happens on the LDP server # 09:54 rhiaro_ ... if a client misses a poll request they can go back to the feed and find all the changes # 09:55 rhiaro_ ... when you know the state of some resource you can accumulate the differences # 09:55 rhiaro_ ... if you have a series of update messages you can generate the results # 09:55 rhiaro_ Arnaud: eprodrom, isn't that true for all other solutions too? # 09:56 rhiaro_ ... if aaron's website is down I can't access any content? # 09:56 rhiaro_ ... Valid question, but why make it sound like it's specific to SoLiD? # 09:56 rhiaro_ cwebber2: curious because I imagine (??) sparql something .. hhalpin joined the channel
# 09:57 rhiaro_ ... not sure if you do sparql queries across multiple sites # 09:57 rhiaro_ ... I just don't have experience with this type of infrastructure # 09:57 ben_thatmustbeme Arnaud, in microformats its assumed that data is copied and stored, not constantly pulled # 09:57 rhiaro_ ... I think there are issues when a node goes down and someone can't access # 09:57 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, deiu on the speaker queue # 09:57 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, deiu, eprodrom_ on the speaker queue # 09:57 hhalpin An invited observer, Francesca Musiani, who is studying decentralized networking and internet governance as a sociologist at CNRS, has just joined us. # 09:57 rhiaro_ ... anyway, not tryign to challenge this, just to see if this is something that SoLiD has # 09:57 Zakim elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss capturing ACTIONs # 09:57 Zakim sees deiu, eprodrom_ on the speaker queue # 09:57 Zakim sees deiu, eprodrom_ on the speaker queue # 09:57 rhiaro_ elf-pavlik: quick comment. I see need that we capture more actions and put thing son wiki page as we explore things # 09:58 rhiaro_ ... every meeting every week we stumble on the same things from different directions # 09:58 rhiaro_ ... every time there is a problem make an action or put it on the wiki # 09:58 rhiaro_ ... indiewebcamp has a good approach, we can take inspiration from that # 09:58 rhiaro_ ... to build up common understanding of each implementation # 09:58 rhiaro_ deiu: can we make it an open issue? [caching] and think about it later? It affects every proposal # 09:58 rhiaro_ elf-pavlik: someone take action to document issue # 09:59 rhiaro_ eprodrom: I think the reason chris brought it up is that SoLiD is putting a lot of the burden onto the client to make sure that the state of the world is maintained # 09:59 rhiaro_ ... I know you're trying to concentrate on simple examples # 09:59 sandro issue: do we need the overall system to be robust even when nodes fail? melvster joined the channel
# 10:00 rhiaro_ ... but I'm more interested in ones that have more complex interactions like follow # 10:00 elf-pavlik q+ re: running same logic on client and server (more general clear documentation of concerns / responsibilities ) # 10:00 Zakim sees deiu, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue # 10:00 rhiaro_ ... would generate a follow activity in my outbox, generate multiple follow activities in multiple inboxes, update my follows list and woudl update someone else's folllowers list # 10:00 rhiaro_ ... if any one of those fails, then the state of the world is out of sync # 10:00 rhiaro_ ... in pump.io each server is responsible for processing those actions Only one message is transmitted between servers # 10:01 rhiaro_ ... if evan on one server follows arnaud on another server the only notification that goes from one to the other is the activity noteification # 10:01 rhiaro_ ... the server doesn't try to write to arnaud's collection from even's server # 10:01 Zakim sees deiu, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue # 10:01 rhiaro_ ... that means just re-sending an activity is much easier # 10:01 rhiaro_ ... server's responsibility, so much easier and more reliable # 10:02 rhiaro_ deiu: SoLiD started as a general platform not social, but we are intereseted in managing notifications # 10:02 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, sandro on the speaker queue # 10:02 rhiaro_ ... We want any app to have a way to notify apps and other servers about changes # 10:02 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, sandro on the speaker queue # 10:02 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, sandro, bblfish on the speaker queue # 10:03 rhiaro_ ... which means we would have to implement some of this logic in the server # 10:03 eprodrom_ That's great # 10:03 Zakim sandro, you wanted to answer eprodrom_ re consistency # 10:03 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, bblfish on the speaker queue # 10:03 rhiaro_ ... about 20 minutes ago henry mentioned idea of generic website # 10:03 cwebber2 so move the side effect / notification stuff off to activitystreams, and the actual store of things on RDF / linked data? # 10:03 rhiaro_ ... we haven't implmemented this yet, this is speculative # 10:04 rhiaro_ ... If I follow someone we change the link to say I follow them, then there's data propagation that doesn't care about the semantics of what happened. All changes are all just data changes # 10:04 rhiaro_ ... haven't standardised that yet, but lots of ways to do it # 10:04 rhiaro_ timbl: could be something like thermometer has just taken new temperature reading # 10:04 rhiaro_ sandro: we want this to work for long tail of multi user appications, social is just 1% # 10:04 rhiaro_ ... doesn't necessarily mean anything to anyone in this group, but this is the background about why we're designing like this # 10:04 Zakim elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss running same logic on client and server (more general clear documentation of concerns / responsibilities ) # 10:05 Zakim AnnB, if you meant to query the queue, please say 'q?'; if you meant to replace the queue, please say 'queue= ...' # 10:05 rhiaro_ elf-pavlik: to give our collaboration more structure. We can't say easier/harder/worse/better - it's subjective. We should document possibilities and constraints so everyone knows the options # 10:05 rhiaro_ ... We need clear way to talk about rendering, content editing, notifications, we need clear vocabulary for this # 10:05 rhiaro_ ... Because responsibilities can be handled elsewhere # 10:06 rhiaro_ ... Don't make constraints based only on personal use cases, but document these constraints # 10:06 rhiaro_ AnnB: enterprise interest is more about workflow management # 10:06 rhiaro_ ... seems that the linked data stuff which reflects more data changes, like some travel approval comes through or some supply chain change # 10:07 rhiaro_ ... in Boeing we transfer every ten minutes as much data as in the library of congress # 10:07 Zakim sees bblfish, hhalpin on the speaker queue # 10:07 rhiaro_ ... so the general data stuff is important to me/Boeing # 10:07 rhiaro_ sandro: the other proposals can handle data flowing as well # 10:07 hhalpin Are we done with SoLID stories? # 10:07 eprodrom_ hhalpin: I think I keep interrupting # 10:07 hhalpin Or can we move comparing SoLID to ActivityPump? # 10:07 eprodrom_ Maybe we should let deiu finish # 10:08 rhiaro_ bblfish: there's no distinction between client and server. servers can speak to servers to make these updates too, could be in the background # 10:08 rhiaro_ ... then we rely on REST for getting and caching resources # 10:08 rhiaro_ ... all the infrastructure of the web is there for us # 10:08 rhiaro_ ... no duplication of data because all data is at the URI that names it # 10:08 rhiaro_ ... so what's missing is for updates to be sent when the content changes before the cache expirey date # 10:09 rhiaro_ ... to say please refresh cache. At architectural level that's what missing # 10:09 AnnB to expand my point, we are interested in the "social" components, as well as the workflow management -- and we see relationship between the two # 10:09 rhiaro_ Arnaud: break for lunch, continue with user stories after lunch # 10:10 eprodrom_ rhiaro_: actually the schedule stuff is very helpful # 10:10 eprodrom_ For those of us on the phone # 10:10 eprodrom_ Since it's mostly inaudible # 10:10 rhiaro_ eprodrom_: nothing new, just that people don't need to leave early after all # 10:10 eprodrom_ rhiaro_: thanks # 10:10 eprodrom_ So breaking for lunch now? # 10:10 eprodrom_ Sorry to be so needy :) # 10:11 rhiaro_ hhalpin: if people want to fit that in, we're in INRIA so we could have a TLS session # 10:12 rhiaro_ ... once we've seen three different proposals, see what the differences are # 10:12 rhiaro_ melvster has short demos, for more generic use cases. deiu has a specific demo # 10:13 rhiaro_ Arnaud: proposal is that once we're done with agenda, those interested can have security discussion with INRIA # 10:14 eprodrom_ Thanks for scribing rhiaro_ # 11:18 rhiaro For anyone not physically present, we haven't made it back from lunch yet tantek joined the channel
# 11:25 eprodrom_ rhiaro: thanks # 11:25 eprodrom_ I like that phrasing # 11:25 eprodrom_ It makes it sound like we're visitors from the spirit realm # 11:33 eprodrom Are we live again? # 11:35 tantek greetings - administrivia request: I'd like to cancel next week's telcon (and suggest adopting a culture of skipping the week after a f2f) # 11:38 tantek Arnaud: it's a request, and typical in many WGs. Allows for more time for post-f2f async follow-ups (which there tend to be more of) before the next telcon. # 11:39 tantek Also good to acknowledge that sometimes a f2f can be tiring and giving people a week to "recover" is good too. # 11:39 Arnaud I'm open to it but not in favor of making it a rule # 11:39 tantek I don't think it's a rule in any WG - more of a custom. # 11:39 tantek So I'm proposing it as a one-off for next week # 11:40 tantek then we can get feedback from WG members about were they ok with it, appreciated it, or would have preferred having a telcon. # 11:40 Arnaud "adopting a culture of skipping the week after a f2f" sounded like making it a rule/policy # 11:41 tantek Arnaud: the *and* was intended as a two part proposal # 11:44 eprodrom It's almost worse to hear the telecon at this point # 11:44 eprodrom IMTS the audio # 11:44 eprodrom Mostly getting rough impressions # 11:44 sandro hm? How's the audio? There are multiple conversations in the room as we haven't started yet. # 11:45 eprodrom sandro, it's pretty bad right now # 11:46 eprodrom I'm sorry to be so demanding about the phone # 11:46 tantek I am still in a separate meeting and cannot call in. # 11:46 eprodrom It's a lot easier when someone is scribing # 11:46 Arnaud fyi: we had lunch at a restaurant nearby that was pretty crowded and it took longer to get served than we would have liked # 11:47 cwebber2 eprodrom, someone needs to scribe the ambient smalltalk! ;) # 11:47 eprodrom No problem whatsoever # 11:47 tantek Arnaud: PROPOSAL: Skip next week's telcon as being the week after a f2f. # 11:48 Arnaud personally I think we still have issues on AS we could talk about on the telecon # 11:48 tantek we will continue to do so, and I think they could wait til the next telcon # 11:48 cwebber2 I'm not against the telecon :) I just wouldn't mind the break! # 11:48 ben_thatmustbeme thinks france has 18 hour days... an hour for lunch is an hour and a half, 8 hours of sleep is 9 and a half ;P # 11:49 tantek cwebber2: agreed. We could use the break after a f2f. # 11:51 tantek sandro, PROPOSAL: Skip next week's telcon as being the week after a f2f. # 11:51 sandro tantek, I suggest we use it as an informal recap of the F2F, esp for people who didnt attend # 11:52 eprodrom Sorry to say, we're behind on our deliverables and I don't think it makes sense to take a week off # 11:52 tantek I don't think that's a good use of sync time - recaps belong in summaries on a URL. # 11:53 sandro tantek, in my experience, these recaps are mostly discussion # 11:53 tantek eprodrom, we're only "behind" because the dates set were unreasonable and without explicit methodology as to *how* they were going to be met. # 11:53 tantek so such "we're behind" justification is a bit hollow # 11:54 sandro deiu: I'm showing my profile, using an app, which gathers the data from multiple sources, some of which are public and some are restricted-access. # 11:54 eprodrom tantek, but that's what people who run late always say # 11:55 tantek I stated from the beginning that the proposed schedules were unrealistic and should be dropped. # 11:55 sandro deiu: I'm adding a phone number, and the apps asks which place I want to put it -- with different associated access control # 11:55 tantek I don't think such top-down schedules are a good way to run or motivate a working group AnnB joined the channel
# 11:56 sandro deiu: See how in the PUBLIC version of my profile, my phone numbers don't appear # 11:56 kaepora No, you can't use a#b to scroll to a location in a JSON! I just checked! :P # 11:57 sandro deiu: the app pulls in the profile elements from different places # 11:57 cwebber2 I do wish I could watch this presentation... I suppose such things are the risks you take when you attend remotely tho :) # 11:58 eprodrom cwebber2, you get what you pay for # 11:58 sandro deiu: (shows network trace, where some profiles give a 403 because he's not allowed access to those, with this identity) # 11:59 sandro eprodrom: The user-profile --- you use schema.org, foaf, vcard, ... why didn't you use AS2.0? # 12:00 sandro eprodrom: API surface? The client needs to pull a bunch of different data from different URLs # 12:00 sandro eprodrom: To document this API for a client developer, I'd need to document all these URLs? # 12:01 AnnB aaronpk, I thought they said yesterday that the port (?) we need for talky is blocked at the INRIA firewall # 12:01 sandro deiu: The API is just doing GETs on URLs of the resources of interest, following links. HATEOAS hhalpin joined the channel
# 12:02 hhalpin the rdf vcard vocabulary, which I think is compatbile with hcard # 12:02 AnnB I get to a splash screen, and no further # 12:02 sandro timbl: Code can following multiple links, like the older version of the vocab and the newer version. So one could convert to AS2.0 gradually, with supporting the old vocabs, too. pfefferle joined the channel
# 12:03 sandro deiu: To build on that example, using tabulator # 12:03 Zakim sees on the phone: INRIA, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), cwebber2 # 12:03 eprodrom Sorry, I'm off the phone, trying to work out talky.io stuff # 12:04 eprodrom It's actually much better than the phone bridge # 12:04 elf-pavlik kaepora: can you please share link to resource saying that you can't do fragment URIs in JSON? a#b ? # 12:05 sandro deiu: I'm using tabulator as a generic skin to render the RDF data in my profile as HTML so it can display in the browser # 12:06 aaronpk whoever is the other black screen on talky, can you mute your video? it will free up bandwidth # 12:06 sandro deiu: I can add additional data to my profile, using a vocabulary I make up, for "hometown" # 12:06 eprodrom aaronpk: I just disabled video for that reason # 12:07 sandro deiu: I just defined a new property, "hometown" # 12:07 sandro deiu: Now tabulator lets me set values for it # 12:07 sandro deiu: So *without programming* I was able to define a new profile property, and then apps allowed users to add it. # 12:08 eprodrom ben_thatmustbeme surprisingly so # 12:08 AnnB that's great to learn # 12:08 AnnB those who were remote at the last TPAC said same thing # 12:09 AnnB really surprising, since the audio is just coming through the webcam # 12:09 sandro deiu: Lea Verou of CSS WG is doing a PhD (at MIT) on html page templates from data # 12:09 eprodrom ben_thatmustbeme it felt like there was some kind of bursting going on # 12:10 ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom, yeah, the audio does sound more... muddled, its definitely not as clear but it doesn't cut in and out # 12:11 aaronpk yeah sorry the mic is pointed the opposite direction of the people so you can see the screen # 12:11 sandro tim: there are levels of customizablity, default form, styled form, js-controlled form, etc # 12:12 cwebber2 sorry I seem to be having connection issues on my LAN bblfish joined the channel
# 12:14 kaepora elf-pavlik: I just created a big JSON fle and tried it locally # 12:15 kaepora elf-pavlik: I am sure you can replicate the results on your browser :-) # 12:15 eprodrom Who is scribing? # 12:15 sandro topic: Henry does Solid walkthrough on Private SHaring # 12:16 sandro bblfish: Using webid-tls for access control, in this example cwebber2` joined the channel
# 12:16 sandro bblfish: So assume Ian has a WebID (a URI that identifies as him) cwebber2 joined the channel
# 12:18 sandro .. in this example I used turtle instead of JSON-LD, just because it was a little easier for me # 12:19 sandro .. using cert.pem for curl demo (browser does this automatically) # 12:21 elf-pavlik tantek: i see not problem with you having your interpretation on that, but please note that other people interpret it differently # 12:21 tantek elf-pavlik: not an interpretation - just a suggestion to you to help you take a productive step forward # 12:22 elf-pavlik tantek we had discussion with timbl over lunch also about that and hopefully W3C can engage in resolving that issue, also in a way which provides full URI for registered link relations # 12:22 sandro bblfish: do a PATCH to add the new bit of access control # 12:23 sandro .. so the client software just allowed jane access # 12:23 ben_thatmustbeme cwebber, is your video/audio muted. it seems like its trying to load a black screen from here # 12:23 elf-pavlik which for me can result in blessing microformats.org , as long as we can all agree no resolution for that # 12:24 cwebber2 I got 3 hours of sleep between prepping user story details and waking up for this # 12:24 tantek elf-pavlik W3C and WHATWG have already done so - in that limited capacity, so there is no further blessing that is being done. # 12:25 aaronpk sorry my computer seems to be having network issues, everything is really slow # 12:26 sandro .. In the example, I show a proposed extension to GET, to include a query, being discussed in HTTP WG # 12:26 eprodrom Thanks aaronpk # 12:27 AnnB aaronpk, should I try hosting talky? # 12:27 sandro sandro: This is off topic --- we don't need queries to make this user story work # 12:29 AnnB which bit are you missing, aaronpk? # 12:29 sandro bblfish: and you POST to that endpoint. *or* or use webmention # 12:29 eprodrom I think it's jumping the gun to say this is definitely WebMention # 12:29 AnnB more than what sandro is scribing? # 12:30 sandro bblfish: I haven't yet looked at how webmention works # 12:30 elf-pavlik tantek so *maybe* we just need URIs for link relations in microformats.org namespace # 12:31 sandro bblfish: the resource you POST to with ping should have ACLs such that you can post (append) but not read, except maybe you can edit the things you created. tommorris_ joined the channel
# 12:32 tantek and that's where they're maintained with a community maintaining them # 12:33 tantek I'm against putting things in a space that's not actively community maintained (in my experience, W3C namespace URIs are not community maintained at all, and often end up out of date) # 12:33 tantek elf-pavlik interesting. I had never considered that. # 12:34 elf-pavlik can *community* setup content negotiation or at least embed <scrip> tags for text/turtle and application/ld+json if we find need for it? hhalpin_ joined the channel
# 12:34 ben_thatmustbeme tantek, elf-pavlik that is a pretty interesting idea. I could certainly see that making sense # 12:35 sandro eprodrom: I like this flow, it's a lot like activity pump, except the client is responsible for making that ping (where in AP it'd be the server). With fanout issues, it's probably better handled by server. # 12:35 hhalpin_ +1 just fixing a URI namespace for microformats # 12:35 sandro bblfish: Yeah, it could be the server, or some non-client-agent. Although if we want a dumb server, we need and intelligent client. # 12:36 sandro eprodrom: LDP as stupid as possible? (stupid is good here. not business intelligence.) # 12:37 hhalpin_ At this point I would keep the URIs at microformats.org rather than w3.org # 12:37 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, hhalpin_ on the speaker queue # 12:37 eprodrom LDP + social stuff # 12:37 sandro sandro: as simple as possible, but no simpler # 12:37 sandro timbl: as long as the added features are application-independent # 12:37 Zakim elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss running bots on server which do client logic ... # 12:38 sandro elf-pavlik: different elements have different responsibilityies... Could have a daemon which does stuff. # 12:38 deiu elf-pavlik++ (similar to Apache modules) # 12:39 sandro sandro: it's still black and white to me --- certain things are the responsibility of the client or not. # 12:40 sandro Arnaud: solid (right now) puts a lot of responsibility on the client # 12:42 sandro hhalpin: the LDP model is interesting, similar to unhosted in some ways, dependent on access control and auth, maybe # 12:43 sandro hhalpin: If you had a server, please store any file, it's a problem # 12:43 sandro sandro: that's exactly the same with ActivityPump and MicroPub. You still need some identity and auth mechanism. # 12:44 sandro hhalpin: I think we should talk about TLS later today # 12:44 sandro sandro: I think they could each use each other's auth system # 12:45 sandro aaronpk: I think the access control is really similar, and orthogonal to this spec # 12:45 sandro Arnaud: any more about solid per se, before we get to overall similarities and differences # 12:46 AnnB are melvster's demos related? (that we have not yet seen) # 12:46 deiu AnnB, maybe we can do those demos in the demo session # 12:46 sandro sandro: The LDP parts of SoLiD are stable and have lots of implementations, the other bits are very much subject to change and improvement # 12:48 sandro akuckartz: Maybe instead -- say what's good about the others # 12:48 deiu for the minutes..."What a great idea" # 12:48 ben_thatmustbeme if we can get everyone authenticating to each other, that would be a really big step forward # 12:49 deiu ben_thatmustbeme, we can do that in a different WG though # 12:51 ben_thatmustbeme deiu, true, I don't mean for the WG to deal with that, the socialwg is specifically avoiding choosing auth mechanism. but if we can get working those developing in the group i think will find it quite useful # 12:51 rhiaro_ aaronpk: micropub is only for writing. Complete picture includes webmention, PuSH and microformats # 12:51 rhiaro_ ... We have lots working reasonably well, where there are holes are getting into propagating information about state changes of objects deep in the tree of comment threads or eg. likes on comments # 12:51 eprodrom aaronpk I think also access to the social graph (who follows Aaron? Who does Aaron follow?) # 12:51 rhiaro_ ... we want to figure out a better solution for that # 12:52 eprodrom And CRUD on profiles # 12:52 rhiaro_ ... the way AS handles that is entirely reasonable, with activities essentially being a changelog of everything that happens # 12:52 eprodrom elf-pavlik thanks very much # 12:52 rhiaro_ ... the way I figured this out was going through the story and seeing the edge cases. Seeing at a point in the story there isn't a solid answer # 12:52 rhiaro_ ... whereas just glancing at the story when we were voting it looked like we could do all of it # 12:53 ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom, thats a matter of publishing that information as a xfn page really. I plan to start doing that soon... following is easy, followers not so easy unless following notifies # 12:53 eprodrom ben_thatmustbeme yes # 12:53 rhiaro_ ... The whole formencoding and namespacing of command params with mp- in micropub works for all use cases I've encountered, but I can see where ther eare limitations, we just haven't hit them in practice yet # 12:53 rhiaro_ ... maybe it's better to find a solution where we don't have those limitations in the first place # 12:54 deiu thinks rhiaro_ needs more karma for her minutes # 12:54 eprodrom elf-pavlik am I allowed to respond now? # 12:54 ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk, i would say i started to hit at least annoyances with it for tagging people in locations in a photo # 12:54 elf-pavlik eprodrom, ActivityPump time now so your turn -- Tsyesika speaks ATM # 12:54 rhiaro_ Tsyesika: one thing micropub talked about is ability to get source, eg. markdown rather than html # 12:55 eprodrom elf-pavlik ah, maybe my sarcasm wasn't clear enough # 12:55 rhiaro_ ... I'd love to introduce ability to get that source # 12:55 aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: locations of person tags wasn't part of the story so I didn't include an example, but yes that's true # 12:55 eprodrom elf-pavlik I don't like being told to shut up # 12:55 elf-pavlik eprodrom on IRC things don't go through that well + me not very english ;) # 12:55 eprodrom s/Undersood/Understood/ # 12:55 rhiaro_ ... Other thing is no ability to have multiple file uploads # 12:56 Zakim sees on the phone: INRIA, ??P2, cwebber2, ben_thatmustbeme (muted) # 12:56 rhiaro_ ... One of the biggest problems I have as a developer for activitypump is that audience targeting is always on the activity rather than the object # 12:56 rhiaro_ ... but in reality when you're checking someone's ability to access an object when they dereference it, you really need the audience targeting on the object # 12:56 rhiaro_ ... it's more useful on the object than the activity. Youc an get around it with some caching, but it's not great # 12:57 rhiaro_ ... has been pointed out that there is duplication regarding post and share activities with objects, but not sure how to get around that without fundamentally changing activitystreams - which I'm not against, but might bring other problems # 12:57 rhiaro_ ... Plus discoverability hasn't been cemented yet # 12:58 cwebber2 I think having a "source" field on notes and etc would be really nice # 12:58 cwebber2 would make editing my posts a lot easier when using pump clients that use markdown # 12:59 rhiaro_ eprodrom: as part of ActivityPump spec (Jessica did a great job), I would point out that in the federation aspect it calls for using the NOTIFY verb # 12:59 rhiaro_ ... I'd really rather see that as a webhook style description mechanism # 12:59 rhiaro_ ... Second, it has a number of activity types that are called out for how they change the state of the world # 13:00 rhiaro_ ... There should be some finer detail on what exactly happens when you unfollow, when there's a like, etc # 13:00 rhiaro_ ... Finally, to go back through and review the user stories and make sure the examples that we have (supported by pumpio) # 13:00 rhiaro_ Arnaud: more interested in big gaps that need filling # 13:00 rhiaro_ ... every technology can have open issues, but right nown we're more interested in bigger story # 13:01 rhiaro_ ... One thing I admire about micropub is having a wide variety of implementations # 13:01 eprodrom That's the only reference I can find # 13:01 eprodrom oshepherd probably has more info # 13:01 rhiaro_ ... we have a good variety of implementations of clients, but for servers there are only pump.io and mediagoblin, mediagoblin only implements half the pump spec # 13:01 rhiaro_ ... with activitypump I'd like to see a spec that people *can* implement on the server side # 13:02 rhiaro_ Tsyesika: to follow on, at lunch we [rhiaro, aaronpk, arnaud] talked about how the indieweb community have split their specs up, and it feels easier to implement # 13:02 rhiaro_ Tsyesika: with activitypump it's like you're either compliant with the spec or not, adn it's a lot of work to get that done # 13:03 rhiaro_ ... someone coming along wanting to make their site activitypump compliant would have a much harder time than getting started with indieweb # 13:03 eprodrom I don't think it's a "personal site" kind of API # 13:03 eprodrom It's a "social network engine" API # 13:03 rhiaro_ Tsyesika: it's one big spec and it can takek time to implement it all, and it's changing a lot. It's a big investment to do it all at once, then change it # 13:04 aaronpk eprodrom, you're saying my personal website can't participate in a social network? # 13:04 rhiaro_ arnaud: something fundamental that makes it impossible to do it this way in activitypump? # 13:04 eprodrom aaronpk, nope # 13:05 rhiaro_ bblfish: don't want to hear sandro speak, don't need to push him to be negative about SoLiD. It means more if I'm negative, as a big defender # 13:05 cwebber2 eprodrom, well, I think maybe with sufficient library'ification of activitypump # 13:05 rhiaro_ ... Implementing is very important, that's where indieweb community is great # 13:05 cwebber2 we can hit a lot more of the "easy to implement" side of things # 13:05 eprodrom cwebber2, right # 13:05 rhiaro_ ... SoLiD have to learn to create communities too # 13:05 Tsyesika eprodrom: i agree it's more oreiented to social network software and being a platform and such but also i think it's useful to be able to implement parts of the spec # 13:05 eprodrom Tsyesika, sure, but I'd have a hard time dividing it into pieces # 13:05 rhiaro_ ... Also AS and pump work is interesting, seems like there can be a mapping to solid # 13:06 cwebber2 activitypump is not quite SSL in difficulty to implement, but similarly, having some good libraries like that can make things much nicer # 13:06 eprodrom Also, I think the kind of person who'd be implementing would be doing it for e.g. Diaspora # 13:06 aaronpk cwebber2, but you also have to make it really easy for other people to create libraries because you're not gonna want ot write libraries in every language # 13:06 Tsyesika eprodrom: i agree, it'd be tricky, i'm not sure how i'd do it to be honest but it's something i like from the indieweb and it's maybe a good idea to look into if here is anything we could do # 13:06 Tsyesika but yes we want this to work for the diasporas, facebooks, etc. of the world # 13:06 cwebber2 aaronpk, I think that the activitypump spec is quite implementable as a library, but it also requires that we put more code into it # 13:07 rhiaro_ ... Once the server is done, it's done for everybody # 13:07 cwebber2 aaronpk, another thing is until MediaGoblin implemented the pump api, nobody else had done that work. I think we should see if we can share our experieences to make it clearer to implement # 13:07 rhiaro_ ... on the client side there's lots of JS and rdf libraries needed # 13:07 aaronpk cwebber2, eprodrom, Tsyesika, I would be interested to see what activitypump would look like broken out into small implementable steps, like what if someone could just create their inbox but wait to implement an outbox # 13:08 sandro is dying to hear Tim take a turn at this. :-) # 13:08 Tsyesika i'm not sure how it'd look but i think it'd be good to look into # 13:08 rhiaro_ ... Could do work on notifications that people want in social communities # 13:08 eprodrom Yeah, so, there are ~5 endpoints defined in the activity pump doc # 13:08 eprodrom Maybe more if you count CRUD on user profiles and created objects # 13:08 eprodrom That feels pretty minimal # 13:09 cwebber2 eprodrom, also I'd say that a lot of the work Tsyesika is spending time on is changing the database to support migrations # 13:09 cwebber2 and I'm not sure how you can get around that complication # 13:09 aaronpk eprodrom, i would feel better about that if it has been demonstrated that it's pretty mininal # 13:09 Tsyesika cwebber2: sure which isn't nesseserly anything to do with specs tho # 13:09 eprodrom Migrating from one server to another? # 13:10 eprodrom That's such a hard problem # 13:10 rhiaro_ ... it has a different view of what social means to indieweb and activitypump # 13:10 Tsyesika eprodrom: moving a database from a design not intended for federation # 13:10 rhiaro_ ... it's less focused on this definition of social, it's a bit difficult to implement the same user stories # 13:10 rhiaro_ ... This translates in a lot of clientside javascript # 13:10 rhiaro_ ... as opposed to indieweb where a lot of logic happens in the server # 13:11 rhiaro_ ... for SoLiD there are bandwidth requirements you have to meet in the client # 13:11 rhiaro_ ... there's also this high-percieved learning curve # 13:11 rhiaro_ ... develoeprs are used to implementing apis, whereas we have a different way of managing data # 13:11 Tsyesika eprodrom: i'm going to try and find some to implement a spec complient version of activitypump and i'll see what the pain points are # 13:11 rhiaro_ ... I think it's a perceived learning curve, it's not that big a deal # 13:11 cwebber2 eprodrom, anyway, I think some documents showing how to plan your database from day 1 (the easiest route!) or how to upgrade an existing system will help other developers with adoption # 13:11 eprodrom Tsyesika maybe we could work on it together # 13:12 eprodrom Tsyesika I want to try a new Go project # 13:12 rhiaro_ arnaud: this touches the point about whether you post the activity and the server creates the post or vice versa # 13:12 eprodrom Or if you have another language you'd like to try # 13:12 rhiaro_ ... an activity or object centric view of the world # 13:12 Tsyesika just to clarify i said you can use CRUD on existing objects nt to create new objects # 13:12 eprodrom cwebber2 cool here # 13:12 cwebber2 would actually like that but knows that probably not many others will be as into it? # 13:12 rhiaro_ deiu: on the plus side, if tomorrow there's going to be a completely different working group with different use cases, we might be able to help them as well # 13:13 eprodrom Tsyesika me either # 13:13 rhiaro_ bblfish: I think we've got a set of communities that represent a learning curve that come to a full blow generalisable version of SoLiD (?) # 13:13 eprodrom We could do it in Scheme # 13:13 cwebber2 now we can make a truly ivory tower version of federation ;) # 13:13 deiu eprodrom, one of our Solid servers is written in Go # 13:13 rhiaro_ ... requirements seem to be on one end of the spectrum, minimal technology, to the other side with maximal generality # 13:14 deiu eprodrom, I wonder if you could fork it to add the pump API # 13:14 eprodrom deiu, it would be an interesting exercise # 13:15 rhiaro_ ... spent a year looking at it, adn by the end realised I could have learned it in less time, it's conceptually quite simple # 13:15 aaronpk Tsyesika, cwebber2, how about building an activitypump api and launch on your own websites? :) # 13:15 elf-pavlik q+ re: to propose discussion about evolution of the whole system, extensible design and backward/forward compatibility # 13:15 rhiaro_ melvster: compared to indieweb for example or ostatus, activitypump ecosystems, it's not as far advanced in terms of community # 13:15 rhiaro_ ... it's not as far advanced in terms of developers or users # 13:15 elf-pavlik q+ to propose discussion about evolution of the whole system, extensible design and backward/forward compatibility # 13:15 Zakim sees akuckartz, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue # 13:15 eprodrom aaronpk, that's really a great idea # 13:15 eprodrom But I'd like to have a proof-of-concept first # 13:16 rhiaro_ ... It's hard to document, hard to get across that it's simpler than the percieved learning curve # 13:16 cwebber2 maybe making something like a "Disqus" for activitypump # 13:16 cwebber2 I got interested in this when I realized the endpoints can point off-server # 13:16 cwebber2 so static publishing people can have a federation panel still # 13:16 eprodrom Yeah that's pretty cool # 13:17 rhiaro_ akuckartz: you have to get in and understand what linked data is about. I'm pretty sure ibm, boeing, would be abel to do that. People who don't have those resources - is it possible to modify or restrict the proposal for SoLiD so that the implementation curve is reduced? # 13:17 rhiaro_ ... with the purpose of making it easy for others # 13:17 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, deiu on the speaker queue # 13:17 eprodrom I mean, why would I have to do that? # 13:17 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, deiu, hhalpin_ on the speaker queue # 13:17 rhiaro_ ... who never dealt with semantic web, to adopt spec # 13:17 ben_thatmustbeme cwebber2, eprodrom, thats exactly what tantek was talking about last F2F with the desire to always support static sites # 13:17 eprodrom If I understand JSON-LD, why do I have to do my Semantic Web meditation training # 13:18 cwebber2 ben_thatmustbeme, yes, it took me a while to understand what that meant # 13:18 Zakim elf-pavlik, you wanted to propose discussion about evolution of the whole system, extensible design and backward/forward compatibility # 13:18 Zakim sees deiu, hhalpin_, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 13:18 cwebber2 ben_thatmustbeme, but when I got it I got kind of excited about how to do it with activitypump # 13:18 eprodrom sandro, I don't think so either # 13:18 rhiaro_ elf-pavlik: I'd like to propose discussion about evolution of APIs, especially breaking changes # 13:18 rhiaro_ ... power of web by showing opening an old webpage in a modern browser # 13:18 Zakim sees deiu, hhalpin_, eprodrom, tim on the speaker queue timbl and melvster_ joined the channel
# 13:19 rhiaro_ ... could analyse apis this way, how they could be broken by certain design choices # 13:19 Zakim sees deiu, hhalpin_, tim on the speaker queue # 13:19 Zakim deiu, you wanted to suggest we rename SoLiD # 13:19 rhiaro_ deiu: maybe SoLiD was not the right name for this spec # 13:20 rhiaro_ ... We should remove the parts of the spec that aren't relevant to the workign group from the spec # 13:20 rhiaro_ ... we started writing the spec with a state of mind in which we wanted to document the whole thing that we were doing # 13:20 rhiaro_ ... that's too much at this point, for this group # 13:20 rhiaro_ hhalpin: when we were writing the charter we knew we were going to have something liek this problem # 13:20 rhiaro_ ... this could change next year, I find it unlikely # 13:21 rhiaro_ ... the microformat html based approach has advantages, but we didnt' write this in the charter because most people want to ship around json not html # 13:21 rhiaro_ ... and we want to be open to enterprise use cases # 13:21 rhiaro_ ... we thought we'd have more enterprise membership to the group # 13:21 rhiaro_ ... but that's changed, we have a much more open sourced, hacker based community # 13:21 rhiaro_ ... on that basis, I could see revisiting json as charter requirement # 13:21 tantek and the microformats based approach has a canonical JSON representation - which is why I was ok with charter mentioning "JSON" # 13:22 rhiaro_ ... in terms of rdf communities, the amount of people using json and html vs json-ld is smaller # 13:22 rhiaro_ ... I'd be concerned if we did an rdf *only* spec # 13:22 rhiaro_ ... I wasn't thinking about html microformats case when writing the charter # 13:22 rhiaro_ ... microformats2 does have json version, we could massage something there # 13:23 rhiaro_ ... I'm hoping json-ld plus parsing html could bridge these communities # 13:23 rhiaro_ ... the goal of any decentralised social web should be to bridge, we don't want three decentralised silos # 13:23 rhiaro_ ... ideally we don't want three different standards, we want one standard that allows the different networks and different communities to do what they want with rich communication # 13:23 rhiaro_ ... I'm hoping URI extensibility will help with this # 13:23 sandro q+ to suggest the contexts can bridge to microformats and form-encoding # 13:24 rhiaro_ ... Charter isn't written in stone, but when I was writing it this is what I was seeing # 13:24 rhiaro_ ... there are a number of high level things that are the same # 13:24 Zakim sees sandro, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 13:24 rhiaro_ ... the xml and rdf communities were born at about the same time # 13:24 rhiaro_ ... everyoen was commiteed to xml, and rdf should be as xml like as possible # 13:25 rhiaro_ ... by trying to make an xml syntax it was horrible # 13:25 eprodrom Actually timbl is being pretty slow-paced right now # 13:25 rhiaro_ ... a guy said he wasted three years looking at rdf through xml glasses # 13:26 rhiaro_ ... you can't address things within a json document # 13:26 Zakim sees sandro, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 13:26 rhiaro_ ... json is interesting, and helping people get from one to the other is interesting, but potentially counterproductive, I'm torn # 13:26 rhiaro_ ... take one set of developers and give them a json world, and another set who forget json and think about core rdf model # 13:26 rhiaro_ ... think about that, send turtle across the wire # 13:27 rhiaro_ ... and you'll find yourself empowered because yoru life is simpler # 13:27 rhiaro_ ... can merge data streams by concatenating files # 13:27 rhiaro_ ... you can build any application on LDP without the store having to know anything about it # 13:27 rhiaro_ ... the number of people using json at the moment is in some ways totally irrelevant # 13:28 Zakim sees sandro, eprodrom, hhalpin_ on the speaker queue # 13:28 rhiaro_ ... we should provide something that does not require json # 13:28 rhiaro_ arnaud: I can see there are differences that could be easily accommodated between different approaches, and combined # 13:28 rhiaro_ ... like content negotiation, format of data can be accommodated # 13:29 rhiaro_ ... solutions that support several different formats # 13:29 rhiaro_ ... some that use a single entry points, some more restful # 13:29 tommorris_ notes that he has seen people using XSLT to transform RDF/XML and despaired. # 13:29 rhiaro_ ... aaron and jessica acknowleged some of the other stuff can be used to learn from # 13:29 rhiaro_ ... there are poitns of convergance we can identify # 13:30 sandro was required once to write XSLT to turn OWL/XML into OWL # 13:30 Zakim sandro, you wanted to suggest the contexts can bridge to microformats and form-encoding # 13:30 Zakim sees eprodrom, hhalpin_ on the speaker queue # 13:30 rhiaro_ tommorris_: some of my students do that for coursework :D # 13:30 Zakim sees eprodrom, hhalpin_, melvster_ on the speaker queue # 13:30 rhiaro_ sandro: I think having an implicit (or explicit) json-ld context, basically we can get form encoding and microformats to be json-ld # 13:30 hhalpin_ My hope is that JSON-LD could basically, with some auto-conversion on server or client side, could be the lingua franca. # 13:30 rhiaro_ ... then we're down to vocabulary mapping question # 13:31 hhalpin_ Vocabulary mapping can be worked out, they are not super-different # 13:31 hhalpin_ There seems general consensus around a HTTP REST model. # 13:31 rhiaro_ ... Big thing about static sites being different wrt being restulf # 13:31 rhiaro_ ... but you could say a static site is like restful funnelled through one endpoint # 13:32 rhiaro_ ... if you don't do that, you can go through individual URIs # 13:32 rhiaro_ ... discover of that could be painful, but may be worth while # 13:32 rhiaro_ ... Also, seems like ActivityStreams is sending across changes in an application specific way # 13:32 rhiaro_ ... but we've talked about it having an application non-specific ways to send changes # 13:33 rhiaro_ ... don't care what kind of data, just want changes to any kind of data # 13:33 rhiaro_ ... curious, people who work on ActivityStreams can they consider giving up on terms like Like # 13:33 rhiaro_ ... why do you want to explicitly like something rather than just say you changed some data # 13:33 eprodrom ben_thatmustbeme, yes all of us # 13:33 eprodrom Since we're publishing it as a spec # 13:34 Zakim sees hhalpin_, melvster_ on the speaker queue # 13:34 deiu eprodrom, I'll take a stab at AS for our apps # 13:34 ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom, you mean all pump.io group? indieweb has not yet really found AS2.0 to be useful, as the different philosophy of everything is a post. but I'm thinking it makes a lot more sense in the notifications sense # 13:35 rhiaro_ eprodrom: addressing harry's point. If you look at these three systems, if you take something like solid and remove webid requirement, add specific containers that are related to each user (folllowing, followers, favourites, ..) and you require some server side behaviour, you've got activitypump # 13:35 rhiaro_ ... if you favour activitystreams as main vocab and favour json-ld serialization # 13:36 rhiaro_ ... but we could do something like activitypump informed by SoLiD design # 13:36 rhiaro_ ... and suggest micropub as a social api for (??) # 13:36 Zakim sees hhalpin_, melvster_ on the speaker queue # 13:36 rhiaro_ eprodrom: I'd rather not describe our group as three different camps # 13:36 elf-pavlik q+ to propose convergence driven by queries on the (social) datasets # 13:36 Zakim sees hhalpin_, melvster_, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue # 13:36 Zakim sees hhalpin_, melvster_, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue # 13:37 rhiaro_ ... I'm not sure a competitive framework it he one we should be working # 13:37 Tsyesika I'm not so sure micropub is all that fundermentally different, after talking to aaronpk more these two days and looking at amy's work it looks like there could be some resolve a lot of our "differences" # 13:37 rhiaro_ doesn't think anyone is really thinking competitively lany more # 13:37 sandro Right -- we all have pretty much the SAME GOAL # 13:37 rhiaro_ ... whatever group decides, I'll hold my nose and get it done, but won't necessarily like it # 13:38 Zakim sees melvster_, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue # 13:38 rhiaro_ hhalpin: we weren't hoping on staying competitive # 13:38 rhiaro_ ... that was to force peopel to compare each other to find commanalities and differences # 13:38 rhiaro_ ... we're at the point where we can solve some of them # 13:39 rhiaro_ ... hoping json-ld can be converted into mf or turtle # 13:39 ben_thatmustbeme theoretically if we did switch micropub to json instead of form encoded, likely as some other version of MP, how much would that change usability by the other communities? # 13:39 rhiaro_ ... the devil is in the detail of vocabulary alignments, link headers etc # 13:39 rhiaro_ ... In terms of what evan said about indieweb, worth noting that indiewb has the most grassroots developer adoption # 13:39 eprodrom hhalpin_: can you justify that? # 13:40 rhiaro_ ... One of the critques when we started this group is that w3c has tendancy to be overly complicated and drive away developers AnnB joined the channel
# 13:40 eprodrom We have hundreds of thousands of users on pump.io # 13:40 rhiaro_ ... So how can we simplify what everyone is doing # 13:40 rhiaro_ melvster: we had this group a few years ago run by RMS called GNU consensus # 13:40 eprodrom I count well less that 100 using indieweb # 13:40 rhiaro_ ... idea was to get social web componants to talk to each other # 13:40 eprodrom ben_thatmustbeme in response, no, I mean the social web wg # 13:40 rhiaro_ ... tried to condense to 'hello world' use case, but it failed because no social web groups would talk to any others # 13:41 rhiaro_ ... now we've seen we've all solved similar use cases # 13:41 rhiaro_ ... can we get all groups to focus on a minimal use case to talk to each other # 13:41 sandro eprodrom, be what about number of implementations? I think that's IWC's claim. # 13:41 eprodrom sandro, yes, and if we go by whether a spec has odd or even number of characters in it, I think SoLiD wins there # 13:41 rhiaro_ hhaplin: ideal situation we have api and common data format and we use that for common use cases # 13:42 rhiaro_ arnaud: part of the process is creating a test suite and showing interop # 13:42 eprodrom sandro, although I think we might have more pump.io clients than there are implementations of the indieweb stuff # 13:43 rhiaro_ hhalpin: goal of standardisation workgroup is to produce a standard, not to have a nice time and learn from each other # 13:43 rhiaro_ ... if we produce a standard we fail, or produce a standard with low adoption or contradictory standards, also fail # 13:43 Zakim elf-pavlik, you wanted to propose convergence driven by queries on the (social) datasets # 13:43 rhiaro_ elf-pavlik: we haven't moved much on querying or accessing data # 13:43 rhiaro_ ... evan mentioned with indieweb you can't get social graph and relationships # 13:44 rhiaro_ ... from the resulting data, we can derive requirements of api # 13:44 rhiaro_ ... with linked data, by following your nose you do it in the same way # 13:44 rhiaro_ ... could be some interesting ways of approach resulting dataset # 13:44 hhalpin It can work, we have seen this with WebCrypto where we got every browser implementing the same crypto API despite underlying differences (NextGen Crypto API, NSS, ec.) # 13:45 ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom, huh? perhaps i should rephrase, how many have actually implemented and are publishing an AS2.0 stream # 13:45 eprodrom ben_thatmustbeme, to what point? # 13:45 eprodrom That it doesn't matter because it's not implemented? # 13:45 eprodrom We're publishing it. It's our job to ship it. # 13:45 Zakim On the phone I see ??P2, cwebber2, ben_thatmustbeme (muted) bblfish joined the channel
# 13:46 hhalpin_ I sould assume we will be implement AS2.0 # 13:46 eprodrom It's ridiculous that we'd turn up our nose at the spec that we are producing and saying it's not good enough because it's not implemented. # 13:46 hhalpin_ if we don't, we should not ship it as a spec # 13:46 eprodrom Or we should fix it # 13:46 hhalpin_ However, it's still quite early # 13:46 ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom, indieweb philosophy is to work out an implementation that works, then spec around it. I'm not suggesting that. I'm saying implment it too # 13:46 hhalpin_ I think we will have a problem if in a year from now there aren't AS2.0 implementations # 13:46 eprodrom ben_thatmustbeme, right, I understand that. # 13:46 ben_thatmustbeme before the spec is done, because you will never have a spec finished unless you start implementing # 13:46 eprodrom ben_thatmustbeme, I totally agree # 13:47 hhalpin_ Re the indieweb approach, I tend to agree # 13:47 eprodrom On the other hand, I don't like to implement things multiple times # 13:47 ben_thatmustbeme i was just trying to see who is publishing as2.0 streams NOW, as they can better make statements about where it is and isn't useful # 13:48 eprodrom I especially don't like to put my users through a lot of incompatibility pain # 13:48 eprodrom "Sorry, I implemented an intermediate version of the spec, now all your feeds are broken." # 13:48 ben_thatmustbeme eprodrom, doesn't mean it has to be on a large system, but you still need some sort of system to test it # 13:48 eprodrom ben_thatmustbeme, I agree # 13:49 ben_thatmustbeme direct question, do you have a published intermediate version of an AS2.0 stream? that I can right now try to consume # 13:49 eprodrom But there are test versions in the test repo # 13:49 eprodrom Which might be good for you to start with # 13:50 ben_thatmustbeme okay, so If i start playing with implementations, I'm not looking at anything else. So I may end up with a lot of suggestions for changes on the MF2 version of it # 13:50 eprodrom sandro, blunt question # 13:51 eprodrom Is SoLiD just CrossCloud rebranded? # 13:51 eprodrom The name slipped earlier # 13:51 eprodrom I don't think that's a bad thing but I'm kind of confused by the whole 'keep it general for all kinds of apps' thing # 13:51 eprodrom I reallllly think CrossCloud is a great idea # 13:52 ben_thatmustbeme general question that i asked and i didn't see any response... if I wrote a MP client that posted with json data instead of form encoded, would that be more interesting to compatibility building? what would still be lacking? argue points better or worse, etc # 13:54 eprodrom Just a lot of beeps # 14:09 Tsyesika eprodrom: i'll try and get these issues worked through and then we should work on a basic implementation bblfish joined the channel
# 14:11 cwebber2 I'm interested in collaborating on a basic implementation, and am flexible on what language # 14:11 Tsyesika but it looks like the issues on it atm will cause a big chnge # 14:12 eprodrom Tsyesika: let's see how the conversation goes today # 14:12 bblfish Arnaud: advantages of continuing next week is that we should keep the momentum # 14:13 eprodrom Nice handwriting # 14:13 bblfish Arnaud: we could have a debriefing meeting next week # 14:14 bblfish Arnaud: anyone objects to not canceling next meeting? # 14:15 bblfish Arnaud: severaly way we could imagine resolving the differences. We should discuss the strategy # 14:15 Zakim sees aaronpk, bblfish on the speaker queue # 14:15 elf-pavlik q+ to propose continue with showing implementation of User Stories # 14:15 Zakim sees aaronpk, bblfish, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue # 14:16 bblfish Arnaud: or we could just bite the bullet and go from there. AnnB joined the channel
# 14:16 Zakim aaronpk, you wanted to talk about authentication in the APIs # 14:16 Zakim sees bblfish, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue # 14:16 Zakim sees bblfish, elf-pavlik, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 14:17 bblfish aaronpk: differences between our API and jessica, we could arrive at a compromise and explore that possibility. WE need to look at this more. We now can see how things are similar and different # 14:17 bblfish aaronpk: also we could make a point about authentication: it appears that all three APIs use verifiers with tokens, we could leave the way to get the token out of the API, and leave that for the next API. hhalpin joined the channel
# 14:18 Zakim sees bblfish, elf-pavlik, eprodrom, hhalpin on the speaker queue # 14:19 bblfish aaronpk: I was surprised to see a lot of convergence # 14:20 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, eprodrom, hhalpin on the speaker queue # 14:20 AnnB that's the reason to have F2F meetings! # 14:20 rhiaro_ note, sandro just indicate he sees common ground between SoLiD and micropub # 14:20 elf-pavlik bblfish: to common ground seams to be notion of container and posting to containers # 14:20 AnnB people work stuff out more easily when actually in person ... not to mention with pizza, sushi, wine, beer ... # 14:20 AnnB triangles are the strongest foundation # 14:22 elf-pavlik ... i see common understanding that thanks to JSON-LD we can think in RDF level and still people can use it as plain JSON # 14:22 elf-pavlik ... one can consider AS2.0 as cristalization of RDF (rel to article bblfish wrote year ago) # 14:23 elf-pavlik bblfish: we should automatically find a way to produce it on LDP servers # 14:23 elf-pavlik ... i can with my tools in very generic way and at the same time people who don't want to use those tools (yet) they can still interoperate # 14:24 Zakim elf-pavlik, you wanted to propose continue with showing implementation of User Stories # 14:24 Zakim sees eprodrom, hhalpin on the speaker queue # 14:25 bblfish elf-pavlik: we should write implementations of the top uses cases and get feedback by doing that. # 14:25 aaronpk evanpro: i feel like we're stretching the amount of time we're getting out of this community to begin with, the idea that we'd write multiple implmenenations for hte contiually iterating different standards, and spend time evallutaing them and figuring it out... # 14:26 aaronpk evanpro: i'd rather put that time towards a single standard # 14:26 aaronpk ... rather than splitting that time among multiple standards # 14:26 aaronpk ... i'm not sure this convergence is going to get easier # 14:26 aaronpk ... i feel like we've already put off this decision once, we need to start coming down to what the social apis are going to be if expect to ship it by the end of the year # 14:27 aaronpk ... i'm sure that our friends here on w3c staff are optimistic about having our charter renewed # 14:27 aaronpk ... i'm not sure i have the mental capacity to continue doing this if we never actually come out with results # 14:27 bblfish evanpro: we need to bite the bullet fast, or else the charter can be completed # 14:27 aaronpk ... my feeling is there is some urgancy, we probably need to make some tough decisions # 14:27 aaronpk Arnaud: we are not expiring at the end of this year, at the end of 2016 # 14:28 eprodrom Thanks for the correction # 14:28 aaronpk ... i agree we don't want to waste time, but it's also not as critical as you just described # 14:28 aaronpk ... to have a recommendation by the end of next year, we better have a solid proposal by the end of this year # 14:28 aaronpk .... i agree by the end of this year we'd beter have a good idea of what this looks like # 14:28 elf-pavlik q+ to mention that current drafts already start or even address federation # 14:29 aaronpk hhalpin: next steps: from each of the three communities, we should choose an author from each comunity # 14:29 aaronpk ... or two editors, who is neutral, not in any of the camps # 14:29 Zakim elf-pavlik, you wanted to mention that current drafts already start or even address federation # 14:29 bblfish @hhalpin wants to operationalise what evan said. Next step: from the three communities we should choose an author from each community one or two draft editors, to push a draft document out to see if we can get consensus # 14:30 aaronpk elf-pavlik: it seems that some of the candidates addressed federation # 14:30 bblfish @elf-pavlik the federation may be part of the API so it may not be that much work # 14:30 aaronpk hhalpin: we probably won't be able to include federation # 14:30 aaronpk Arnaud: or maybe we'll have it beacuse it's built in # 14:31 bblfish @hhalpin one author: the author writes a lot of the text, and the editors does ? # 14:31 aaronpk hhalpin: you need at least one neutral person who doesn't really care to help balance out arguments that arise # 14:32 aaronpk AnnB: the reason i'm asking is after dec 11 i'm free, and i'm a good editor # 14:32 aaronpk Arnaud: to get back to the point, the proponents seem to be in agreement to give people a bit more time to choose a starting point, to experiment a bit further # 14:32 aaronpk ... i'm in favor of doing this , because i rather we start with a more constricted approach rather than saying so and so is winning # 14:32 AnnB I will not have time before I leave Boeing ... but can probably help edit after I leave # 14:32 hhalpin Or just all editors, but we need at least one neutral person in case there are severe disagreements # 14:32 hhalpin Also, we need to see what the implementation commits are # 14:33 aaronpk ... there is value in holding off for a little more # 14:33 Zakim sees akuckartz, sandro on the speaker queue # 14:33 Zakim sees akuckartz, sandro, aaronpk on the speaker queue # 14:33 Zakim sees sandro, aaronpk on the speaker queue # 14:33 Zakim sees sandro, aaronpk, eprodrom on the speaker queue # 14:33 bblfish @Arnaud prefer to work towards a more constructive approach, so there is value to holding off a little bit more. Agree that it is unrealistic to have everybody make three implementations. # 14:33 aaronpk akuckartz: would it be possible to start with writing what is accepted as common ground? # 14:33 bblfish @akuckartz would it help to work out what the common ground is ? # 14:33 elf-pavlik q+ to mention we already agreed for 'follow your nose' during last F2F # 14:33 Zakim sees sandro, aaronpk, eprodrom, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue pfefferle joined the channel
# 14:34 eprodrom elf-pavlik: do any of these proposals not do that? # 14:34 eprodrom Or is that just a point of commonality? # 14:34 aaronpk AnnB: what about making an outline? fill in the bits that are known now # 14:34 aaronpk akuckartz: maybe start with a wiki page and collect the common ground # 14:35 Zakim sees aaronpk, eprodrom, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue # 14:35 aaronpk sandro: i dont think the editors need to be neutral, they just need to be enthusiastic about whatever happens # 14:35 bblfish @sandro: don't think that the editors need to be neurtal, but they need to be enthusiastic about what happens. They have to do what the working group decides # 14:35 eprodrom ben_thatmustbeme WOW! Go do that! # 14:36 AnnB ohmigosh, ben_thatmustbeme! wOOOOOt!! good luck # 14:36 eprodrom ben_thatmustbeme It's gonna be great!!!! # 14:36 Zakim sees aaronpk, eprodrom, elf-pavlik, hhalpin on the speaker queue # 14:36 AnnB hope you have stocked up on sleep # 14:36 hhalpin HTTP REST(ish), common vocabulary (re microformats and ActivityVocab), and fix the HTTP headers so they are common # 14:37 AnnB the rest of your life will be both challenging and enriched # 14:37 Zakim sees eprodrom, elf-pavlik, hhalpin on the speaker queue # 14:37 bblfish @Arnaud if there are issues that can be expressed independently of the implementation, that can be addressed # 14:37 AnnB good thing you're not in Paris! # 14:37 eprodrom concrete steps with deadlines++ # 14:38 bblfish @aaronpk to avoid the issue of endless postponing lets have some deadlines # 14:39 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, hhalpin on the speaker queue # 14:39 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, hhalpin on the speaker queue # 14:39 aaronpk evanpro: what i'd like to get an idea of is what we think would be some changes in the state of the WG now that would show us that we're movign forward # 14:39 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, hhalpin, cwebber on the speaker queue # 14:39 bblfish eprodrom: what would be some changes to the state of the working group that would show us moving forward. # 14:40 aaronpk .. concerned about jessica not having time to keep editing the AP doc # 14:40 aaronpk .. or the solid people drop out because there's a new version of java it can't run on # 14:40 bblfish ... what are the changes that happen that we get going further? # 14:40 aaronpk .. i'm more cocerned about what are the change that happen that make us sure we're going further # 14:40 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, hhalpin, cwebber, bblfish on the speaker queue # 14:40 aaronpk .. i'm not sure there's a clear positive way forward, is it that we create a SoLiD/actvitypump/micropub spec? # 14:41 aaronpk .. is it we find something that's the olowest common demoninator (which right now HTTP) # 14:41 aaronpk .. what will the change be next time we sit down in japan # 14:41 bblfish .. I don't know that there is a clear way forward? Is that we create a spec with the lowest common denominator which I think is HTTP at present. How do we see the way forward? # 14:41 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, hhalpin, cwebber, bblfish, deiu on the speaker queue # 14:41 aaronpk .. the only change i see that is likely is that we lose members and lose interest # 14:41 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, hhalpin, cwebber, bblfish on the speaker queue # 14:41 bblfish .. the only change I see is likely is that we loose members and move forward # 14:41 aaronpk .. because you're missing out on being at the meetingand at lunch # 14:41 aaronpk .. my feeling is there's a lot of common ground and recognizing this and seing ways of converging # 14:41 deiu q+ to mention "browsing the social graph" as the common denominator # 14:41 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, hhalpin, cwebber, bblfish, deiu on the speaker queue # 14:41 rhiaro_ It's come through that people care a *lot* this last couple of days # 14:42 rhiaro_ Hopefully we're past worrying about falling apart now! # 14:42 bret Generate 3 specs and let the best spec win? ;) # 14:42 aaronpk .. it's a bit pessmiistec right now to say we're going to waste time and lose members # 14:42 Zakim elf-pavlik, you wanted to mention we already agreed for 'follow your nose' during last F2F # 14:42 Zakim sees hhalpin, cwebber, bblfish, deiu on the speaker queue # 14:42 Zakim sees hhalpin, cwebber, bblfish, deiu on the speaker queue # 14:42 aaronpk elf-pavlik: i'll try to experiment with different workflows to work between telecons # 14:43 aaronpk .. also for writing the document, trying to capture following the nose idea # 14:43 Zakim sees cwebber, bblfish, deiu on the speaker queue # 14:44 aaronpk hhalpin: one way to focus the group would be to not raise as many issues, because issues take a lot of time to reseolve # 14:44 aaronpk ... especailly RDF issues, which take a lot of time and are of limited relevance to everyone # 14:44 aaronpk .. if people are really upset about that, let'sd do it on an issue-by-issue basis # 14:45 aaronpk .. second thing is in terms of authentication, we need to have a generic, i think the bearer token comment was en point # 14:45 aaronpk .. the w3c will liekly be starting a web authentication working group in the fall # 14:45 aaronpk .. in terms of next steps, i'm happy to have aaron and jessica work and maybe someone from SoLiD # 14:45 aaronpk .. but two or three people need to take responsibiltiy for converging # 14:46 aaronpk cwebber2: i think having aaron and jessica and osmone from solid try to find what the common ground is is a great idea # 14:46 aaronpk .. it seems like a lot of progress happened in this f2f whereas the last one the message was implementations win but we were going to end up rubber stamping somehing we already had # 14:47 aaronpk .. maybe after these converstaions happen, we can start to establish what are the prototype implementation goals # 14:47 aaronpk .. i do agree we should be moving into implementation phase pretty soon # 14:47 aaronpk bblfish: i think these 3 groups are woring in different layers, so it's quite easy to get them to agree if we understand the different layers # 14:48 aaronpk .. as i was saying earlier, the container stuff is a container, what i'm seeing from activitystreams is a certain vocab which has certain side effects # 14:48 aaronpk .. it's kind of a specialized convtainer which does special things # 14:49 aaronpk .. i disagree with harry about the rdf vocab, if we can think about the modeling correctly, we'll be able to narrow down much more quickly # 14:49 Zakim deiu, you wanted to mention "browsing the social graph" as the common denominator # 14:49 aaronpk deiu: we're talking about the smallest common denominator, but we haven't really decided how to model basic things # 14:49 aaronpk .. so how to we get to see and browse each other's social graph # 14:50 eprodrom What about AS 2.0 vocabulary? # 14:50 aaronpk Arnaud: it'd be useful as a first step to list capabilities and features that we want to have # 14:50 aaronpk .. it would go along the lines of having an outline of what we want the spec to cover # 14:50 aaronpk .. we've seen through the deep dives we made there's a certain operation we expect to be able to have # 14:50 cwebber2 a question is, how will that be different from user stories? # 14:50 aaronpk .. what are the basic blogs we need ot have for this api # 14:51 aaronpk .. not getting into the details of what the blocks look like # 14:51 cwebber2 will this be a shared technical requirements requirements? # 14:51 eprodrom s/blogs/blocks/ # 14:51 aaronpk .. one of the features of the indieweb is the modular approach # 14:51 aaronpk .. we don't start building a big spec, we define little specs with different modules # 14:51 aaronpk .. wecan experiment and argue over those different blocks # 14:52 aaronpk deiu: classifying all these items would also allow us to see whether some of them are relevant or not # 14:52 aaronpk .. which means we might be able to remove some of the work ahead of us # 14:52 elf-pavlik q+ to very shortly mention extensibility e.g (currently ActivityPump only supports Follow and Like action + relevant collections) # 14:52 Zakim sees eprodrom, elf-pavlik on the speaker queue # 14:52 aaronpk eprodrom: two questions. the idea that we're trying to define the basica building blcoks, isn't that what the user stories were for? # 14:53 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, bblfish on the speaker queue # 14:53 aaronpk .. if there's really a lot of question about syntax/strucre, do we need to stop our effort on AS2.0? # 14:53 hhalpin syntax is JSON-LD with pre or post-processing # 14:53 deiu q+ to mention that implementing the user stories requires establishing boundaries # 14:53 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, bblfish, deiu on the speaker queue # 14:53 aaronpk .. my understanding was we were going to publish AS2.0 as the social data syntax # 14:53 hhalpin unless there are serious objections # 14:53 trackbot issue-15 -- AS2.0 Vocabulary in many ways duplicates microformats.org and schema.org efforts -- closed # 14:53 aaronpk .. if we are not in agreement, do we abandon that effortt? # 14:53 hhalpin In terms of the vocabulary, we just need to map those replications # 14:53 cwebber2 I agree with Evan that both we have AS 2.0 anyway, and also wondering what the difference this would be from user stories # 14:53 cwebber2 I really don't want to go through a user stories thing again # 14:54 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, bblfish, deiu on the speaker queue # 14:54 aaronpk .. seems like we need to move the AS2 effort forward, and if we're questioning that, we need to steb back and re-evaluate # 14:54 rhiaro_ AS2 isn't set in stone right? even if it's not right yet, we can change it to make it better # 14:54 aaronpk Arnaud: the user stories don't define functional blocks # 14:55 aaronpk .. with regard to the social API, i don't think anyone has been arguiing to drop AS2.0 # 14:55 aaronpk .. so if we throw that out, we'd be that much closer to the situation harry was describing # 14:55 cwebber2 PROPOSAL: All specs put forward by the group require AS 2.0 :) # 14:55 aaronpk .. but in fact, we've even heard that aaron, who makes no use of AS2 today said he'd have a use for it # 14:55 hhalpin notes for AC reps that everyone has to leave in 5 minutes # 14:55 hhalpin likely in order to get to the AC meeting # 14:55 Zakim sees elf-pavlik, bblfish on the speaker queue # 14:55 Zakim elf-pavlik, you wanted to very shortly mention extensibility e.g (currently ActivityPump only supports Follow and Like action + relevant collections) # 14:56 aaronpk elf-pavlik: we didn't get to talk abotu extensibility today # 14:56 eprodrom elf-pavlik, INCORRECT # 14:56 aaronpk .. activitypump defines some actions but isn't extensible # 14:56 eprodrom That's not true at all! # 14:56 aaronpk .. indieweb has some vocab dilemmas, what do i do if i get terms i don't know how to render # 14:56 hhalpin +1 extensibility # 14:56 hhalpin -1 discussing it endlessly # 14:57 hhalpin We have URI-based extensibility which should work with ActivityPump as is # 14:57 eprodrom "8.2 Activities The core of any [ActivityStreams] based protocol is activities within. Users post activities to their outbox, from which they are distributed to recipients' inboxes. ActivityPump places no restrictions on the activities which may be distributed; however, it defines certain activities with special behaviors" # 14:57 aaronpk bblfish: if we can reuse as much existing technology, ontologies, then we can get out a whole bunch of problems # 14:57 eprodrom elf-pavlik ^^^ # 14:57 hhalpin Micropub has mp- # 14:57 hhalpin we have URI based extensibility and the ActivityVocabulary # 14:57 aaronpk .. so maybe we can get to the core, specify the key integration points and reduce our workload # 14:57 hhalpin just see what points there are schema.org+microformat overlap with ActivityVocabulary # 14:57 sandro eprodrom, it'd be good if you could give us a walkthrough of that. How does an enterprise do travel-authroization (the example that came up yesterday) over activitypump? # 14:57 hhalpin Not superhard. # 14:58 aaronpk .. if nothing else, sharing a lot more understanding, which is critical to being able to converge # 14:58 eprodrom sandro, sure, I'd love to # 14:58 aaronpk .. i would like people to seriously consider if they are up to being an editor or not # 14:58 aaronpk .. we don't want people to volunteer unless they are 100% committed # 14:58 aaronpk .. it's not just editing the document, it's keeping track of the resolution... # 14:59 aaronpk .. i'm not trying to discourage people , just want to make sure they know what it takes # 14:59 eprodrom jasnell does a lot of work # 14:59 eprodrom elf-pavlik yes? # 15:00 eprodrom What are you trying to say? # 15:00 elf-pavlik eprodrom, we all had amazing meeting here and see a lot of potential to move forward # 15:01 elf-pavlik i have impression that remotely you might miss some context and i get impression of you grumpy side # 15:35 Zakim Attendees were [IPcaller], INRIA, cwebber2, eprodrom, +1.514.525.aaaa, ben_thatmustbeme, bret akuckartz, tantek, bblfish, jaywink and pfefferle joined the channel
# 17:01 Tsyesika starts to look at resovling some issues on activitypump # 17:02 Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed bblfish joined the channel
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RRSAgent logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/05/05-social-irc
Zakim Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot for more detailed help.
wseltzer cwebber2 should we try moving the phone?
elf-pavlik Arnaud: looks like IndieWeb doesn't have ACL - looking at ActivityPump approach
sandro LDP WishList http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/LDPNext
KevinMarks hm, the dev pref for activities seen on pump could be because those are theire esamples
oshepherd I commented a couple of weeks back on verb vs object orientation... My conclusion was that the only difference here between indieweb and ActivityStreams *in practice* was the "post"/"share" verbs which IMO are very contentless (and I'd actually prefer ActivityStreams without them, because in practice they're - specifically the post verb - a huge source of problems in pump.io
Tsyesika oshepherd: i did want you to look at #15 and #19 on https://github.com/w3c-social/activitypump/issues
ben_thatmustbeme Zakim, mute me
bblfish this is the user story I mentioned https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#Product_issue_reports
rhiaro_ cwebber2: I'm curious what happens in terms of how much link rot impacts this system, especially if you end up having commuincation with someone else and their whole site goes down? How does that affect yoru local record of your interaction with them? And also resolving information about that?
trackbot Created ISSUE-39 - Do we need the overall system to be robust even when nodes fail?. Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/39/edit>.
Loqi Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Social API/User stories]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=84005&oldid=83430
aaronpk I don't know if this is going to work, but it might... https://talky.io/socialwg
tantek elf-pavlik: don't make an issue of rel=acl registration - just go add it to the rel registry yourself per http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values
akuckartz hhalpin mentioned https://unhosted.org/ and briefly compared it to LDP
tommorris_ notes that he has seen people using XSLT to transform RDF/XML and despaired.