#social 2015-05-06
2015-05-06 UTC
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# 
elf-pavlik melvster1, sandro: have you considered using Common Name (CN) (URI-fied) from TLS cert used in response you get data from?
# elf-pavlik in practice i don't see way to make more granular claims about authority of the information in HTTPS response!
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# elf-pavlik aaronpk ^
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# elf-pavlik "graph name" considered as authority / assumed source of this particular information
# elf-pavlik IMO both WebID and IndieWeb community seem not to incorporate any way of verifying if response has any authority
# elf-pavlik will need to write article about it, too much to try explain via IRC --- or let's meet today in Paris? :)
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# elf-pavlik_ tantek, tantek_ good noon :)
# elf-pavlik_ i very much enjoyed having chance to meet so many people from the WG in last days, sad that two of us couldn't even exchange handshakes :(
# elf-pavlik_ msg
# 
deiu tantek, you may want to take a look at http://shout-irc.com/
# elf-pavlik deiu, i used it in last days but at least my deployments sometims looses connection :(
# elf-pavlik back from xChat today
# elf-pavlik tantek, if you feel like shaking hands even shortly 2-3min, let me know when/where i could catch you and i would possibly show up :)
# elf-pavlik tantek, timespace details?
# elf-pavlik rhiaro, maybe we could meet there first as well?
# elf-pavlik i could use some sunshine anyhow, location?
# elf-pavlik WebID / IndieAuth URL :)
# 
tantek deiu - could you add IRC tool suggestions / improvements to https://www.w3.org/wiki/Irc ?
# elf-pavlik tantek, deiu https://github.com/w3c/modern-tooling/issues/16
# 
Loqi @poulpita :: [W3C fanclub] Robin, Robin, Robin ! Poke @robinberjon https://twitter.com/poulpita/status/595875359154909185/photo/1
# elf-pavlik tantek, aaronpk i even mentioned you ~2 weeks ago in that IRC facelift issue https://github.com/w3c/modern-tooling/issues/16#issuecomment-95575259
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# elf-pavlik assumes this Novotel http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/115878663
# elf-pavlik yes, thank you - Way: Hôtel Novotel Paris Tour Eiffel (115878663)
# elf-pavlik i'll come over there in ~1h, hopefully will find wlan to gret on IRC...
# elf-pavlik s/gret/get/
# elf-pavlik rhiaro, would you like to meet at Novotel first and then got together to the flat bblfish lives with Gordana and little Trinity? (i formulate it this unusual way, to not only use e-prime but also prefer non possesive form of relating agents and things :)
# elf-pavlik maybe shouldn't discuss it via this IRC channel since not relevant to most ppl - still finding my way in IRC culture ...
# Loqi Abasset made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-05-04]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=84037&oldid=83989
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# elf-pavlik leaving to Novotel Tour Eiffel ...
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# elf-pavlik msg?
# 
ben_thatmustbeme no messages for you elf-pavlik :P
# elf-pavlik no one likes me :'(
# ben_thatmustbeme haha
# ben_thatmustbeme not true
# elf-pavlik happy that could also meet tantek IRL, hoping to have chance to meet all you crazy folks sooner or later ;)
# ben_thatmustbeme so the babies stayed in
# elf-pavlik babies++
# ben_thatmustbeme i doubt I will be headed to europe any time soon
# ben_thatmustbeme really wishing i could go to japan for f2f... but i think my wife would kill me
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# elf-pavlik i also can't leave part of european continent, till we transition to modern identity systems :(
# elf-pavlik so we may enjoy online collaboration before we can shake hands IRL :S
# ben_thatmustbeme speaking of which, you were asking about micropub querying for supported endpoints
# ben_thatmustbeme s/endpoints/syndication points/
# elf-pavlik so client e.g. my web browser will get x-www-form-encoded response
# elf-pavlik do you parse it with some standard javascript functions?
# Loqi Benthatmustbeme made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-05-04]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=84039&oldid=84037
# elf-pavlik ben_thatmustbeme can i sindicate to other micropub endpoints?
# ben_thatmustbeme i parse it from PHP and send that down to the user. when they log in to the system i have to check that they have a micropub endpoint so I fetch that info then
# elf-pavlik i don't understand 'parse it from PHP'
# elf-pavlik didn't touch PHP for ages :P
# ben_thatmustbeme I don't see why not. really the "syndicate-to" is just a control function to the server software. those values could be anything at all that the software can support
# elf-pavlik ben_thatmustbeme how you authenticate in such case micropub to micropub (server 2 server) ?
# elf-pavlik action-54
# elf-pavlik i also think about capturing this thought about daemon process acting as client and browser app action as client
# ben_thatmustbeme when the browser loads the UI for posting it already has the syndicate-to values. my server grabs that info when they log in, and pushes the html
# elf-pavlik so you never query micropub endpoint from browser app?
# elf-pavlik apologizes for ignorance on how you do things and tries to understand it better
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# ben_thatmustbeme no, everything goes to the micropub app's server first, then to users site from there
# ben_thatmustbeme no, quite alright. I found its easier / better to use the server code to do it, rather than trust JS
# elf-pavlik trust with what?
# ben_thatmustbeme pushing actual data to MP endpoint
# ben_thatmustbeme also, to be able to submit to MP endpoint directly from client app, the auth info would have to be sent down to the browser. that system does not do that
# ben_thatmustbeme but it can be done in just JS, as I did with mobilepub
# elf-pavlik i need to see some flow diagrams for indieauth and micropub ...
# elf-pavlik sequence diagrams
# ben_thatmustbeme good thinking
# 
aaronpk bret made this one, but it doesn't have any numbers so you can't see the order of things http://indiewebcamp.com/auth-brainstorming
# elf-pavlik ok
# elf-pavlik oh, i keep mixing it with http://unhosted.org
# elf-pavlik so all your apps have server side component?
# elf-pavlik unhosted can ran from localhost since you just need to load HTML5 app
# elf-pavlik s/ran/run/
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# ben_thatmustbeme elf-pavlik: Mobilepub is entirely JS, and HTML5.
# ben_thatmustbeme it almost works in the browser, but i believe you can't log in because of CORS
# elf-pavlik ben_thatmustbeme can you point me directly to line where you parse form-encoded responses from querying micropub?
# elf-pavlik i can understand js way better than php :)
# elf-pavlik nothing to feel proud of ...
# elf-pavlik #++
# elf-pavlik rhiaro do you get your markdown this way /
# elf-pavlik node parse-mp-query.js [ 'https://www.brid.gy/publish/twitter', 'https://www.brid.gy/publish/facebook' ]
# ben_thatmustbeme elf-pavlik: normally this requires auth, but i'll open it up for a few
# elf-pavlik where do you have code parsing it?
# ben_thatmustbeme some extra data from my syndication sites leak there
# elf-pavlik js code
# ben_thatmustbeme i haven't used that in JS
# ben_thatmustbeme but it would work just the ame as the link i linked you do in mobilepub
# elf-pavlik someone needs to write library for that or just use shims from browserify
# elf-pavlik hmmmm.... may take browserifying something like https://www.npmjs.com/package/body-parser
# elf-pavlik wishes for JSON :)
# elf-pavlik ben_thatmustbeme does form-encoded == URL-encoded form body ?
# elf-pavlik would "OAuth 2.0 implicit-grant flow" work with micropub ?
# ben_thatmustbeme curl -H "Accept: application/json" 'https://ben.thatmustbe.me/micropub?url=https://ben.thatmustbe.me/photo/2015/5/2/1/'
# ben_thatmustbeme messing with accept headers now :)
# elf-pavlik conneg++ :D
# ben_thatmustbeme i'll be honest, i think the code to write it out to JSON is easier than to form encoded
# elf-pavlik aaronpk, i see myself uncapable to discuss OAuth stuff, but let's talk about it in Dusseldorf with fkooman and michielbdejong (remotestorage spec editor)
# elf-pavlik aaronpk++
# elf-pavlik dances relieved
# elf-pavlik can we do research in existing tooling?
# elf-pavlik IMO nowadays anyone doing api parses json
# elf-pavlik do you think you already reached critical mass in deployment? ;)
# elf-pavlik will not get to far into discussing form-encoded vs. JSON today ...
# aaronpk here is an example of the kind of problem encountered when people are trying to process json requests http://stackoverflow.com/questions/19626275/rails-action-to-accept-json-as-input-convert-json-to-object-and-then-save
# 
bblfish before this WG meeting, we were boxing in the dark https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TqVJPkIXdY
# elf-pavlik would this help? https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bray-i-json-00
# elf-pavlik sitting just outside next to broken coffee machine
# elf-pavlik "I need to make an API with my application and then use it with my iOS app! Thanks for your help. First day with Rails :( "
# elf-pavlik cassis.js++
# elf-pavlik #++
# elf-pavlik #me++
# elf-pavlik bblfish LOL ;-D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TqVJPkIXdY
# ben_thatmustbeme Loqi does some magic on looking for punctuation i know
# ben_thatmustbeme cassisjs++
# Loqi @elfpavlik :: Blindfold Boxing - @bblfish comments on early days of @SocialWebWG https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TqVJPkIXdY&feature=youtu.be - http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-05-06/line/1430917164811 #IndieWeb
# elf-pavlik hmmm it could recourse if twitter links could link both way?
# elf-pavlik oh that comes from me using http://shout-irc.com/
# elf-pavlik IndieWeb++ we start having more and more fun on #social :D
# elf-pavlik IndieWebCamp++
# ben_thatmustbeme cordova++
# ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: the question I always ask, is that just because the community isn't really populated with JS people?
# ben_thatmustbeme tantek: do you use micropub?
# ben_thatmustbeme the next question is, is there a limitation to JS client. I know CORS can be problematic at times
# ben_thatmustbeme and I always find its too much work to get people to figure out the magic file to allow that... i always forget how
# elf-pavlik tantek: please note possible way to enable easy browser | server rendering to HTML https://github.com/w3c-social/social-arch/issues/1
# elf-pavlik aaronpk, please wait for Dusseldorf and http://unhosted.org / http://remotestorage.io examples
# elf-pavlik let's wait for upcoming weekend to build more multi-directional understanding
# ben_thatmustbeme ^^^
# elf-pavlik with standard templating you can render stuff on the backend, also people try stuff like https://prerender.io/
# elf-pavlik bblfish, true! couple of times i got stuck on Mozilla Persona not playing well with CORS https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Persona/Security_Considerations#Explicitly_specify_the_audience_parameter
# elf-pavlik one can gracefully degrade and render content on backend as i said
# elf-pavlik http://unhosted.org crowd delegate storing content to http://remotestorage.io
# elf-pavlik tantek++
# elf-pavlik deiu, bblfish we really need to sort out https://github.com/w3c-social/social-arch/issues/1
# elf-pavlik http://viejs.org/ does it but uses pre 1.0 JSON-LD and pre 1.1 RDFa
# elf-pavlik server can render content stored and serve it when text/html requeted
# elf-pavlik deiu: see http://viejs.org/examples/todo/ bergie wrote it sitting next to me in c-base berlin
# elf-pavlik so ho have HTML
# elf-pavlik i like *raw* but tantek also have point that text/html matters
# elf-pavlik for js;dr
# elf-pavlik also accesibility may not work with raw data as for today - which i believe will change
# elf-pavlik no client can request text/html and SoLiD server will render it
# elf-pavlik rhiaro ^
# elf-pavlik deiu how do you serialize RDF to HTML using template
# elf-pavlik notice current duplication on template rendering my homepage https://github.com/elf-pavlik/webprofiled/blob/master/views/profile.hbs
# elf-pavlik curl https://deiu.rww.io/profile/card -H "Accept: text/html"
# elf-pavlik deiu ^
# elf-pavlik js;dr
# tantek elf-pavlik: added to https://github.com/w3c-social/social-arch/issues/1 - hopefully my comment is helpful
# elf-pavlik curl https://wwelves.org/perpetual-tripper/ -H "Accept: application/ld+json"
# elf-pavlik conneg++
# elf-pavlik today i'll add text/turtl
# elf-pavlik deiu, see https://mustache.github.io/
# bblfish The server I wrote is here https://github.com/read-write-web/rww-play
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# elf-pavlik after talking to deiu adds to READ LATER list http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf11-datasets/
# elf-pavlik bblfish please always see you web pages in a browser with disabled javascript ... http://www.wikihow.com/Disable-JavaScript
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# elf-pavlik bblfish, i don't call what you do 'wrong' just for some people it doesn't meet requirements they take as MUST (without judging this decision as 'right' or 'wrong')
# elf-pavlik decision of taking such requirement - we all need to address different needs and have different priorities
# elf-pavlik bblfish I do it with templates as this one https://github.com/elf-pavlik/webprofiled/blob/master/views/profile.hbs
# elf-pavlik in version i started working at you place i subscribe to server with SSE and re render *the same* template in browser when data changes
# elf-pavlik follow your foaf:knows :)
# elf-pavlik my WebID
# elf-pavlik when i deploy updated version, when i POST new place e.g. Dusseldorf it will re-render in your browser without reload
# elf-pavlik using *same* template as it rendered it originally on the server to show static js;dr site
# elf-pavlik i'll deploy it this weekend and maybe can do micropub check-in to update list of places on my home page (using side effects on the server just to explore how it would work)
# bblfish ah so it's https://wwelves.org/perpetual-tripper/ ?
# elf-pavlik bblfish, i didn't deploy the dynamic version yet, i can push work-in-progress branch to github just so you can see it... wait
# elf-pavlik i work on merging webprofiled with plp-provider
# elf-pavlik this version does what i said, renders static event page and if someone will checkin it will update attendees list in real time :)
# elf-pavlik unless js disabled, than you need to reload to see updated list of attendees
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# elf-pavlik bblfish but i use js both in browser and with node.js / io.js on server - we can NOT assume that
# elf-pavlik but we could use something like https://mustache.github.io/
# elf-pavlik i happen to use on my website extended mustache - http://handlebarsjs.com/
# elf-pavlik bblfish, once people running python, php, ruby etc. backends can do that, i will consider your statement valid
# elf-pavlik also scala-js doesn't answer this issue since not all languages can compile to js
# elf-pavlik and we shouldn't expect everyone to use javascript or scala(js) on the server side
# elf-pavlik php, python, ruby, go, java etc.
# elf-pavlik see list of languages on https://mustache.github.io/
# elf-pavlik i would even say MUST NOT
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# elf-pavlik bblfish SoLiD allows it?
# elf-pavlik issue-24
# elf-pavlik allows it - accounts for it and still interoperates
# elf-pavlik what about read text/html ?
# elf-pavlik 1) no Content-Negotiation (or just text/html)
# elf-pavlik 2) no control over headers
# elf-pavlik 3) GET only
# elf-pavlik 2) no control over HTTP headers / you can use <link rel="" ...> in HTML head though :)
# elf-pavlik I don't +1 this but if it could work you wouldn't need to discuss 4) with tantek and possibly other people
# elf-pavlik deiu in such case we need to resolve issue-24 and not support static websites
# aaronpk looks like CloudFront will pass HEAD requests back to the origin http://docs.aws.amazon.com/AmazonCloudFront/latest/DeveloperGuide/RequestAndResponseBehaviorCustomOrigin.html#RequestCustomHTTPMethods
# elf-pavlik i raised this issue during last f2f and with tantek support we opened it just so we can find common assumption here
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# elf-pavlik I would propose adding notes to issue or wiki and not try to convince each other during single irc session
# elf-pavlik let's please try to UNDERSTAND each other first before developing opinions about other's preferences / ideas
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# elf-pavlik bblfish we can conclude that two groups need to work with different set of requirements
# elf-pavlik but let's take more time to UNDERSTAND different factors rather than try to conclude in such ways prematurely
# elf-pavlik deiu i started thinkering and sketching cases for SoLiD test suite which tests ACL including different variants of list membership relations, inverse relations etc.
# elf-pavlik it might get complex if we support multiple subjects described in single resource, especially when we use inverse properties (let's say situation where one ended up with memberOf and no member for groups, in practice 'tag' property works in this way) @ rhiaro
# elf-pavlik disclaimer - i just try to understand how SoLiD handles things and possibly have very wrong understanding, especially how it manages named graphs in quad stores
# elf-pavlik which one does NOT have to use!
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# elf-pavlik bblfish how do you query data?
# elf-pavlik not QUERY
# elf-pavlik i understand that you can only query ldp:Resource not the 'whole dataset on this server'
# elf-pavlik bblfish i know you experiment with it ...
# elf-pavlik i didn't say 'file' i said dataset e.g. i cache foaf profile of my friends and their friends in this case i can ask "my friends and their friends who live in Paris"
# elf-pavlik to answer it fast i need local cache and index, otherwise it will take long time to answer it making 1000s of requests
# elf-pavlik 10000s
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# elf-pavlik bblfish SEARCH what, content of a file?
# elf-pavlik but i must say it makes ACL much more straight forward
# elf-pavlik if you can query dataset which has ACL on resources it can drive you mad
# Loqi Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Social API/Sorting user stories]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=84043&oldid=83637
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# elf-pavlik issue-24
# elf-pavlik aaronpk, deiu: we may end up with - no ACL if you run static page = public content only
# elf-pavlik !tell tantek can you demo static site with ACL? i just suggested that we may draw line on static site -> no ACL (public content only)
# ben_thatmustbeme elf-pavlik: i think thats a pretty reasonable thing. unless someone can do that internally. The basic idea for static sites thus far has been do security through obscurity
# ben_thatmustbeme site.com/<somelongstringofchars>/post
# elf-pavlik ben_thatmustbeme http://w3ctag.github.io/capability-urls/ ?
# ben_thatmustbeme but static sites should still be able to access private data from others
# elf-pavlik how static sites access data?
# elf-pavlik we really need to work on syncing our terminologies
# ben_thatmustbeme indeed
# ben_thatmustbeme okay, site A has an ACL on a post for site B to access
# elf-pavlik how static site *accesses* something ?
# ben_thatmustbeme even though site B is static, that should not effect Site B's owner from being able to access Site A's post
# elf-pavlik or the person using static site as identity?
# ben_thatmustbeme person*
# elf-pavlik using e.g. app (native, HTML5 .js <3 )
# ben_thatmustbeme having a static site for identity should not hinder a person's ability to access ACL'd data
# elf-pavlik what is IdP?
# elf-pavlik so just IndieAuth part ?
# ben_thatmustbeme exactly, what i mean, but i was trying to put it more generically
# 
rhiaro eg. http://tigo.rhiaro.co.uk/ my bird's webpage is static but, should he learn how to use a computer, he can sign into the indiewebcamp wiki, which is not static
# elf-pavlik ben_thatmustbeme what do you think about capturing it on http://indiewebcamp.com/static-site ?
# elf-pavlik IMO mostly IndieWeb community cares about 'static websites'
# elf-pavlik aaronpk can one delegate micorpub ?
# ben_thatmustbeme elf-pavlik: thats fine. not sure its really needed
# ben_thatmustbeme elf-pavlik: yes, thats totally find to delegate micropub
# ben_thatmustbeme and have some other way to post back
# ben_thatmustbeme allows to have bridge to site by some micropub -> something else
# elf-pavlik ben_thatmustbeme that gets less and less static ;)
# ben_thatmustbeme elf-pavlik: yes, and no
# elf-pavlik webhooks, authorization etc.
# ben_thatmustbeme some people use GIT to manager their website
# ben_thatmustbeme the hosted code is HTML, but their MP endpoint is just writes files and git push, or rysnc, etc
# elf-pavlik ben_thatmustbeme i would really ask IndieWebCamp community to document it more precisely so we can all evaluate it seriously
# ben_thatmustbeme github pages are used as well by some
# elf-pavlik please understand that WG members from other backgrounds may find it quite a limitation to what we can do
# elf-pavlik having it well documented will allow everyone to understand various nuances of what we call *static* and what *static on steroids* etc.
# ben_thatmustbeme there are definite limitations, thats for sure
# elf-pavlik deiu, i hope this static sites conversation didn't throw you off... we still have issue-24 open and i see current conversations more of finding understanding
# elf-pavlik also documenting well all the *responsibilities* in the system and where one could place them (also delegate) will make such conversations much more concrete
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# elf-pavlik aaronpk could you try to watch video embedded at the bottom of http://sockethub.org/ before weekend?
# elf-pavlik 4 friends from unhosted ( melvster knows them all ) will come for the IWC and we can discuss no-backend apps with them
# elf-pavlik just of remote storage i think... let me find a link https://unhosted.org/
# elf-pavlik aaronpk, just to get concept, SoLiD has a lot in common and I see no problem dashing webfinger from unhosted
# elf-pavlik and use link relation from profile instead of JRD
# elf-pavlik looking for slides from Nick's talk
# elf-pavlik sure, unhosted has similar approach to SoLiD clients run on device (mostly web browser) while MicroPub clients run on the remote server ...
# elf-pavlik and Sockethub uses AS (now migrating to AS2.0) in simlar way to ActivityPump
# elf-pavlik but it can POSSE to IRC, SMTP and XMPP
# elf-pavlik while storing your original posts in remoteStorage (but for now only JSON and no server side rendering :S)
# elf-pavlik unhosted++
# elf-pavlik aaronpk here you go http://elf-pavlik.github.io/sockethub-presentation/#/ (i forked it since he didn't have gh-pages branch
# elf-pavlik ben_thatmustbeme ^
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# elf-pavlik oh Sockethub also had some POSSE to twitter and facebook
# elf-pavlik yes and nick does AS2.0 version now
# elf-pavlik not mapping but ~ proxy Sockethub
# elf-pavlik and it keeps your personal original in remoteStorage
# elf-pavlik yes
# elf-pavlik he can explain it in detail next weekend
# elf-pavlik on client/server note micropub clients run on servers and micropub server syndicates to silos as client as well as uploads files as client
# elf-pavlik we need to stay careful when talking about client/server as bblfish tries to point out often
# elf-pavlik ben_thatmustbeme how do you do IndieAuth from it?
# aaronpk like myapp:// or http://localhost/
# elf-pavlik webfinger--
# elf-pavlik have you noticed no webfinger in ActivityPump? https://github.com/w3c-social/activitypump/pull/1
# elf-pavlik looks like internet doesn't want you to make that call ;)
# elf-pavlik aaronpk i use perpetual-tripper@wwelves.org with mailto: and xmpp: years ago i also supported sip: and acct:
# elf-pavlik needs to go to sleep
# elf-pavlik aaronpk i used to run server myself but don't do it any more
# elf-pavlik for Zakim i just use now ekiga.net or linphone.org
# elf-pavlik good night #social
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# Loqi tantek: elf-pavlik left you a message 4 hours, 26 minutes ago: can you demo static site with ACL? i just suggested that we may draw line on static site -> no ACL (public content only) http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-05-06/line/1430936871215
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