#social 2018-06-06
2018-06-06 UTC
# 
kaniini nice
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# dansup I wish I could make it, should have federation done by the next meeting!
# dansup cwebber2: I've been making a lot of UI tweaks and bug fixing before I finish AP, its getting really close! https://pixelfed.social/dansup
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# dansup Gargron: does mastodon use http signatures or LD signatures for ActivityPub?
# dansup nvm, I'll ask on discord :)
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# 
@dirk_s The aim of @SocialWebWG today seems more valid and required than ever. Does the closing of the working group and start of an incubator community group (https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG) early 2018 indicate a milestone is achieved and the next dev phase is reached? (twitter.com/_/status/1004306513333309440)
# fr33domlover Hey people
# fr33domlover cwebber2, rhiaro, anyone else: Do you have a recommendation for how to write an ontology in OWL/RDF? (I'm not an Emacs user) I mean, just write a plain Turtle file? Is there some vim plugin? Some graphical RDF/OWL editor you can recommend?
# fr33domlover In the past I'd make a diagram
# fr33domlover And write plain text based on the diagram
# fr33domlover Thanks rhiaro :)
# 
@lukask #elag2018 @literarymachine now mentioning WebSub https://www.w3.org/TR/websub/. Also of interest: ActivityPub https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ (twitter.com/_/status/1004343543408848896)
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# yookoala First time using Mumble. Not sure it works properly for my phone. I'm using Plumble and I'm not hearing anything yet.
# yookoala Thanks. It works.
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# nightpool beep boop. my headset's charging, ill be there in a minute
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# nightpool oh geeze
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# nightpool +1
# eprodrom present+
# nightpool present+
# yookoala +1
# eprodrom q+
# yookoala present+
# nightpool eprodrom: I wanted to ask, could you coordinate with aaron and get us back on the schedule here, so we don't have to do this again?
# eprodrom thanks!
# nightpool cwebber2: yep, i'll set up a todo item for myself right now
# nightpool cwebber2: three items today, two of them about AS2 extensions and 1 about version control hosting (somewhat in re: the github acquisition)
# nightpool cwebber2: as requested, we'll timebox the first 2 issues for 30 minutes so we have 30 minutes for the last item
# nightpool eprodrom: in our last meeting we talked about making an errata as our main form of updates, but we mentioned updating an "editor's draft" as well so I wanted to talk about that a little.
# nightpool eprodrom: my main goal for this is that someone looking at all the published updates + the errata, they would have all the information. So I think the editor's draft would be useful as a document applying the erata to the published document.
# nightpool .. (And then maybe link to it from the erata).
# mayel present (lurking)
# nightpool cwebber2: +1, although I want to make the comment that we're not making a editor's draft (since we're not a WG), we're making a "community group report".
# nightpool ajordan: so just to clarify, we're just discussing only adding stuff in errata, right? New features, other stuff we're adding, wouldn't end up in this document, right?
# nightpool eprodrom: Yeah, the worry is that it'll get confusing very fast. If we're saying 'you should read this because it's an updated version', that's not the place for us to be adding experimental features etc.
# eprodrom PROPOSED: the CG will maintain an "editor's draft" of AS2, applying only the existing errata changes to the final REC version of AS2
# nightpool +1
# emacsen present (lurking)
# yookoala Should I vote too?
# eprodrom +1
# yookoala +1
# yookoala Thanks.
# nightpool cwebber2: Yep, all members of the community group are welcome to vote.
# eprodrom That is great!
# nightpool cwebber2: there are a couple new people here, so let's do a quick round of introductions. ajordan can you go first?
# nightpool (ajordan: can you scribe your intro for the IRC people? i missed it :( )
# eprodrom whoa, good domain
# 
cwebber2 yookoala: I'm koala, I'm a php developer and I'm a user of mastodon, also do some translation work for Mastodon, which is how I learned about ActivityPub. Trying to do some work on it with activypub and federi(ze?) with mastodon. I think I have an issue with geojs and proposed to use activitypub with geojs instances. I recently checked the issue and found so many people interested in federation and in activitypub somehow
# eprodrom yookoala++
# eprodrom Awesome!
# nightpool yookoala is also the author of https://github.com/git-federation/gitpub which is a proposal for git federation
# nightpool thanks chris!
# 
ajordan ajordan: I'm ajordan, I maintain pump.io which eprodrom wrote originally, and I'm involved in the IndieWeb community as well. also I comaintain a privacy site called PRISM Break which basically lists services vulnerable to NSA surveillance programs and then free alternatives, which are usually decentralized
# nightpool eprodrom: I think a couple weeks ago we had an open issue on documenting our extension process for AS2. In particular, we have this big context document with multiple namespaces in it. So there's a question of how to include new namespaces or extension to this document
# nightpool ... and it probably would not be out of line in terms of git federation.
# nightpool s/out of line/out of line to start discussing this/
# nightpool eprodrom: in this document I covered four types of extensions we might see in as2. quickly: 1. established vocabularies. These are vocabs that have gone through some sort of standards process that are frequently used as a extension of as2
# nightpool ... so the idea is that we'll have a wiki page saying "when people are adding licensing information, they'll often use the cc schema'
# 
aaronpk Not on the call and can't really participate today but wanted to introduce myself anyway. I'm one of the co-chairs of this group, and also the editor of a few specs, including IndieAuth, a federated identity and authorization protocol. https://www.w3.org/TR/indieauth/
# nightpool ... depending on their needs, we may add these vocbularies to the as2 context document. I think that would be up to the CG to decide and we'll start github issues to decide that.
# nightpool ... Second would be single-implementation extensions, stuff that's pretty specific to a single implementation. We might want to include that on the extension page. If you're looking at the pump.io page, you might see this internal vocab. (this is the database id for this object etc). I think it's unlikely we'd want to expand lots of effort to put these through a formal process but it would be nice to
# nightpool document
# nightpool ... the third kind would be multi-implementation extensions still in development. For example, i talked a couple months ago about using ap for dating applications. This would be a kind of way for us to declare a 'dating' namespace and start experimenting with that in a way we can all understand might be standardized at some point
# nightpool eprodrom: the idea would be to do those as a sub-namespace of the as2 namespace. I'm not enough of a namespacing ninja to say exactly how to do that, but there's an example on the document of what might work.
# nightpool eprodrom: and then the fourth would be stable multi-implementation extensions. If the CG decides, we would then include them into the main as2 document. So then you could use them with a prefix, without a prefix, whatever. Most of what we would be doing would be maintaining the extension wiki document, and then carving up namespaces/sub-namespaces.
# eprodrom nightpool++
# eprodrom Thank you for scrolling
# nightpool cwebber2: that all sounds pretty great although you sounded somewhat hesitent about putting established vocabularies into the main as2 document. I'm also somewhat hesitant to that as well, but do you think there's a possible compelling usecase for that?
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# nightpool eprodrom: handingling complex @context's is kind of a pain. If we're all using the same one, say security or whatever, it would be great to drop that.
# nightpool cwebber2: makes sense.
# nightpool nightpool: Question, there was concerns earlier around mutable contexts breaking signatures, what was the thinking around that?
# nightpool :D
# nightpool eprodrom: agree, and I think it's a high bar to pass to include something in the main as2 document, so we'll have to be mindful of that.
# nightpool eprodrom: can we get this on the agenda for next week and get a vote on it? I don't want to drop it going forward.
# nightpool cwebber2: sounds great, i'll do that.
# eprodrom \o/
# nightpool TOPIC: Federating git + other vcs hosting
# nightpool cwebber2: Next topic on the agenda is federating git and other version control hosting.
# nightpool cwebber2: there's lot of discussion on this issue, and lots of other issues, I'll link in some other places people are discussing it.
# 
Loqi [cjslep] Please do not hesitate to reach out to me on Mastodon for any questions/concerns/comments surrounding the https://github.com/go-fed/activity library that @Skehmatics mentioned. I obviously have a vested interest in the outcome of the decision, but wo...
# eprodrom q+
# Loqi [cjslep] Please do not hesitate to reach out to me on Mastodon for any questions/concerns/comments surrounding the https://github.com/go-fed/activity library that @jas99 mentioned. I obviously have a vested interest in the outcome of the decision, but would h...
# nightpool eprodrom: So I have one comment and one suggestion. My comment is that I'm excited to see lots of discussion about this--it's been a problem with git hosting for quite a while and i'm excited to see an effort to get it going.
# nightpool ... I wonder if there's an organizational umbrella we can extend to the various git hosting projects, and say 'Hey, why don't you negotiate this out within the w3c?' Why shouldn't we make this a w3c issue?
# mayel agree with @nightpool’s comment, I’ve been thinking this needs to happen for a while!
# nightpool cwebber2: Do you think this group is the right place or should we set up another thing?
# eprodrom push harder, cwebber2
# nightpool eprodrom: I think that having a new git federation cg would be kind of cool
# nightpool cwebber2: that sounds fine to me but we'd have to find someone that's interested in running that
# nightpool ajordan: i'm not opposed generally to having a new community group, but why wouldn't we do this within the existing community group. Is there a compelling reason?
# eprodrom q+
# nightpool cwebber2: The main question I guess is that we might not be able to prioritize it enough. Personally, I think it would be good not to lose the activitypub/as2 expertise and momentum that we already have in this group by moving to another group.
# yookoala q+
# yookoala Thanks
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# nightpool eprodrom: I think it makes a lot of sense for the current group to accellerate that current process, but if there are a lot of people working on it they may outgrow the size of this group.
# ajordan yookoala https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG#Meeting_Process should help you out
# nightpool .... I wonder if there's a possibility of inviting/supporting a summit meeting between gogs/gitlab/gitea? That might be a great way to get started with this effort
# nightpool yookoala: I think there are many people who are interested in starting this workgroup, as linked above
# nightpool cwebber2: maybe we should respond there asking people to come into this community group?
# nightpool cwebber2: Let's follow up on that thread, and see if people want to set up a special meeting, or join the biweekly metting, or something similar.
# nightpool s/cloud/butt strikes again?
# eprodrom ha ha ha
# nightpool cwebber2: So I think to lay this out a little, ??? laid out a way similar to the way I was thinking about this, where Users would be actors and Repositories would be actors, and they would be sharing activities that are happening in the repositories to actors
# nightpool q+
# nightpool cwebber2: does that sound right?
# nightpool yookoala: that was how I was imagining it also
# eprodrom Yes
# nightpool (i'm not scribing the cloud2butt discussion....)
# eprodrom THAT IS AWESOME
# nightpool see also http://skyenet.tumblr.com/post/142394174810/how-ponify-ruined-my-life
# eprodrom We need to add a cloud-to-butt buster script to the wiki software
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# cwebber2 nightpool: I just wanted to say that the first thing I'd like to see is a use of use cases we'd see from federated git hosting. One of the most important ones as far as I can see is a shared login system for filing issues and etc, and I don't think that existing activitypub systems think about that
# nightpool cwebber2: yeah, authentication and authorization is a pretty important issue here--especially because activitypub doens't specify much about that
# eprodrom glad to be here
# nightpool cwebber2: Also the ACL issue makes this a little more complicated since most people have been using an implicit ACL based on hosting
# yookoala q+
# nightpool cwebber2: so, we could have a federated ACL type system, but I think that's very dangerous--synchronizing ACLs makes it easy to miss messages, etc.
# nightpool cwebber2: I see two main approaches other then that, both of them are effectively capabilities
# nightpool you have oauth2.0 bearer tokens, which you can consider bearer capabilities.
# nightpool You would have as some sort of HTTP header some token that permits you to do something
# nightpool And then you also have OCAP-LD, but that specification is fairly new/in-progress and i have to disclaim that i'm also the editor on it
# nightpool yookoala: i'm not sure I see the usecase for a ACL type system--i'm mostly thinking of a notification type system for issues/PRs, and that's what I see the main usecase to be. (Although i'm also interested in learning more and open to other ideas)
# mayel @ajordan that’s what git-ssb has been doing: https://git.scuttlebot.io/%25n92DiQh7ietE%2BR%2BX%2FI403LQoyf2DtR3WQfCkDKlheQU%3D.sha256
# yookoala Thanks. Thats my question.
# nightpool cwebber2: my bringing up ACLs was as a lets-not-do-that sort of thing
# eprodrom q+
# eprodrom cwebber2: you're glitching
# nightpool cwebber2: I think the main usecase would be for someone who's authorized to write to the repository can merge/etc a PR. And people also have features where they close an issue to make it only writable by contributors
# yookoala q+
# nightpool cwebber2: And other questions like, "can you discover someone's SSH key from their username" and stuff like that
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# nightpool eprodrom: I wonder if we can set up bounds like 'every repository has local access on a single server' and remote access would just be submitting issues, opening PRs, etc. I think those things would be the 80% solution and it would be great to get those in.
# nightpool -ish
# nightpool +1 to eprodrom
# nightpool yookoala: I was thinking of a much simpler thing, and in my draft i was thinking of only doing the federation protocol--everything that happens within a git service happens inside the server, and that doesn't federate
# cwebber2 ah, I didn't see https://github.com/git-federation/gitpub/blob/draft-0.1/SPECIFICATION.md until now... it was in a branch
# nightpool ... if someone is doing a pull request, that code is happening on my server only and i'm only sending a notification that i'm doing something with your code.
# nightpool ... With a pull request, i'm just sending a notification that something is happening to your repository and that I have a branch you can do something with
# nightpool ... I initially hadn't thought about permission control and like the last person said, I think that if we can get it working without that would be a big win
# nightpool tantek: I'm definitely interested in getting parts of this working in a federated way, with issues and comments and all that. I don't remember why I started working on this but since feburary, every post I've made on github has been on my own website and federated to Github using webmention
# nightpool ... I've posted issue on my site which have then federated to github, I've posted comments issues on my site that have federated to github, I've posted ??? (slightly different case) and reactions from my own site to github
# yookoala tantek: Thanks.
# nightpool ... part of the idea would be to see how much of github's silo'd content can be done from my own site. It definitely brought up an issue like 'Who is allowed to close an issue?'
# nightpool ... I'm definitely biased to say something like "The author of an issue is the only person allowed to close an issue" and i think there's a lot of UX-space to explore here
# eprodrom tantek++
# eprodrom Great work!
# nightpool ... and the possibility for a federated model of issue tracking to be very different from the existing silos.
# eprodrom I need to leave; thanks all!
# nightpool sorry cwebber2 between the drop-outs and ramble i couldn't understand much.
# nightpool ajordan: I have two questions. tantek--just so i'm clear, what you've been experimenting with is POSSE into github, right? Not only federated git stuff, right?
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# nightpool tantek: I have one example so far of a p2p tacking interaction, because there are so few of us doing it now
# nightpool aaron p. POSSE'd a comment on a github issue and then I replied to that from my own site, and that was sent p2p instead of through github.
# nightpool ... this is a protozoa of federated activity protocol.
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# nightpool ajordan: great, I think it's important that we remember indiepub people want to do this stuff as well, and make sure it's bridgable and stuff like that
# nightpool tantek: I agree, I think that this is a space where we want to start experimenting
# nightpool ajordan: I'm thinking about the question of how we model issue closing/ACLs stuff like that. I'm thinking that a lot of this would be made way easier if we didn't try to model all of that stuff
# nightpool ... If the canonical server for a repository is server A, and server B has a way to say "would you reject this activity", that would give a lot more flexibility
# nightpool ... but still allow the protocol to work
# yookoala Thanks all!
# nightpool cwebber2: I think that's it on time so let's close it out for this week. I'm going to reply to the thread (git-federation#5) that yookoala linked, and we'll see all of you in two weeks
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# nightpool tantek: And if any of you are in portland in 3 weeks, it would be great to see you at the indieweb summit, we'll probably have a hackday about this
# nightpool woof. been a little bit, my scribing is rusty :D
# nightpool yeah no problem
# 
tantek IndieWeb Summit btw: https://2008.indieweb.org/
# ajordan or if you want *this* year's IndieWeb Summit: https://2018.indieweb.org/ ;)
# nightpool anyway, I didn't get much chance to say this during the meeting
# nightpool but huge +1 to the last ajordan comment around modeling ACLs/etc.
# nightpool while obviously it's great to start approaching a full decentralized trust solution, it's not the model we have in activitypub today
# technomancy cwebber2 was cloudy before it was cool??
# technomancy cwebber2: funny, how that happens =)
# nightpool ajordan: that's fair, although i'm somewhat a proponent of 'send the activity and wait for the Reject'
# nightpool but that has some UX issues
# nightpool yookoala++
# technomancy this git federation talk has really caught my attention; I think it's been an obvious need for a long time, but we might as well ride the publicity wave of the github acquisition and make the most of it
# cwebber2 yookoala: now that I've found https://github.com/git-federation/gitpub/blob/draft-0.1/SPECIFICATION.md I am reading and will comment on it
# mayel cwebber2: glad to be hear :) wish I was not so busy at the moment so I could participate more, but really hope this moves forward! BTW I’m working with Moodle on MoodleNet (a new social media for educators) and also with Lynn and Bob on the idea of using AP/AS for economic activities, so you’ll probably see more of me…
# nightpool or an Offer
{ activity } maybe?# nightpool would that be abusing as2 too much?
# nightpool cwebber2: https://gist.github.com/nightpool/6379f75eb2fec22502db4d559b3b649e
# nightpool did some rudamentary formatting
# nightpool honestly cwebber2 it was probably fine, i could have figured it out if you hadn't *also* been cutting out at the time
# nightpool i think there are a lot of reasons we want repositories to be in control of their own issue trackers
# nightpool beyond just mimicing existing UX
# nightpool mmm
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# nightpool i know this is maybe a controversial area, but as I see it federated (as in federated vs distributed) means that there's a single authority for every object.
# nightpool hmm?
# nightpool well by single authority i mean, like, "the id of this object is https://mastodon.social/status/123019203"
# nightpool hmm.
# nightpool well, i mean, if someone is the canonical URL for an object, don't they implicitly have the authority to edit and delete the object, just by changing what document they serve?
# nightpool and vice-versa, noone except them can change the document without them changing the document they serve.
# nightpool hmm. maybe?
# nightpool well tbf i made that url up
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# nightpool and the actual ones also have a user path component
# nightpool but i'm quibbling with the "hella violate user expectations" bit--there are plenty of backfill-esque edits that users expect to have happen as part of maintenance
# technomancy cwebber2: as a company that does CI, my employer has reason to be tracking these discussions closely, so I'm trying to see if I can work it into becoming part of my day job
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# nightpool anyway, to get closer to the topic at hand, I think people should be able to block others from commenting on their issues in a way that doesn't necessarily require them to publish publically the list of everyone they block.
# nightpool i dont think we need anything more then that to get to "repositories should ultimately be in control of their own issue threads"
# nightpool I guess i dont see why issue creators should own their own issues.
# nightpool the UX of github might encourage that, but that's very obviously not how it works in systems like jira, bugzilla, etc.
# nightpool sure, but is the issue really a "post" by the user?
# nightpool or is it a structure given to a sequence of posts?
# nightpool hmm, not sure I follow
# nightpool in this case the issue would be a post made by the repository-actor.
# nightpool but most people would agree that the repo owner is still responsible for/in charge of triage
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# cwebber2 joeyh's commentary on distributed git alternatives https://joeyh.name/blog/entry/the_single_most_important_criteria_when_replacing_Github/
# technomancy I wasn't able to join the audio of the meeting that just happened; were there any action items decided re: git federation?
# technomancy tantek: tempting; I do love to visit portland.
# technomancy I'll see
# tantek details of other events happening that week: https://indieweb.org/2018#Nearby_Events
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# tantek cwebber2: are you one of the owners of https://github.com/orgs/git-federation org? Can you add me to it so I can request Bridgy Oauth permissions? Thanks!
# tantek !tell cwebber2 Are you one of the owners of https://github.com/orgs/git-federation org? Can you add me to it so I can request Bridgy Oauth permissions? (so I can federate to that org's repo :) )
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# Loqi [@dirk_s] The aim of @SocialWebWG today seems more valid and required than ever. Does the closing of the working group and start of an incubator community group (https://www.w3.org/wiki/SocialCG) early 2018 indicate a milestone is achieved and the next dev phase is reached?