#wordpress 2018-04-22

2018-04-22 UTC
[kevinmarks], [miklb] and [unoabraham] joined the channel
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[unoabraham] That's really not required, folks can simply go to their profile > Other Sites and paste in a bunch of their sites and social profiles. Works perfectly. Even shows up on the Rel=Me widget with all of the links.
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GWG [unoabraham]: Which is not really required?
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GWG But yes, I add sites that don't support rel-me down there.
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GWG But it seemed to make sense to move micro.blog to the top.
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[unoabraham] I meant moving Micro.Blog to the top. These are folks using WP. MB would only serve as a POSSE site for them.
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[miklb] is there an open issue for moving this field in the IndieWeb plugin?
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GWG https://github.com/indieweb/wordpress-indieweb/issues/98
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Loqi [dshanske] #98 Add Micro.blog to User Profile
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GWG I opened it based on watching the Micro.blog WordPress slack.
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GWG People couldn't figure out how to add rel-me to their profile. Micro.blog uses it to verify site ownership. https://help.micro.blog/2017/web-site-verification/
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[unoabraham] [miklb] No issue, but there are really more important issues to fix/areas to work on. Like Microformats plugin breaks meta data and causes the permalinks to disappear. I'd rather have that working and with that Bridgy backfeed working.
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[miklb] oh, sorry, I meant an open GitHub issue. GWG linked to it. I just think discussions around the community plugin should be documented there. That’s all.
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GWG [unoabraham]: The problem being no one who developed the Microformats plugin actually uses it.
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GWG There was a debate as to whether we should even publish it at all, as it is a hack of sorts.
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GWG But, it definitely needs a settings page to explain that.
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[miklb] [unoabraham] understood. The nature of the varying degree of control over who/how/when each plugin gets updated is a bit difficult to follow at times, but the community plugins like the core IndieWeb should reflect community input.
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GWG [miklb]: They'd have to, as the Indieweb plugin requires two people to merge.
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[unoabraham] I'd think WP users should have Rel=Me figured. They would have to know the basics seeing they use plugins, themes, configure web host (even if it's a 1 click install).
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GWG [miklb]: I also wanted to look at another enhancement to the documentation.
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GWG [unoabraham]: You'd be surprised.
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[miklb] my point being even if it’s just us discussing in Slack some of it should be documented in the plugin issues. So I did. No big deal.
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GWG [miklb]: I agree.
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GWG After I finish this, I'll likely try to see if I can add a settings page to Microformats 2. Then on to what I was next planning.
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GWG Too many people are not understanding what Microformats 2 is supposed to do
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aaronpk this? https://wordpress.org/plugins/wp-uf2/
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Loqi [IndieWeb WordPress Outreach Club] Description It is only a very basic implementation, because not every element is accessible through actions or filters. It is better to use a theme that supports Microformats 2 fully. FAQ What are Microformats 2? Microformats are a simple way...
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GWG aaronpk: Yes.
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GWG It is a hack.
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aaronpk what's it supposed to do?
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GWG And it breaks some themes.
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GWG aaronpk: It tries to use WordPress filters to add microformats
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GWG Not an easy task
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aaronpk that does sound difficult
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GWG aaronpk: That's why we debated over releasing it.
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GWG So, we were afraid it would chase people away
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GWG And equally afraid that we'd lose a section of people who could get some basic microformats but wouldn't switch to a friendly theme.
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chrisaldrich What if the mf2 plugin had a settings page for the various filters? Then at least folks could pick and choose pieces against their theme and/or some of us could better help indicate which ones to enable?
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chrisaldrich We could also keep a spreadsheet of recommended filters to add to some of the bigger/popular themes.
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GWG chrisaldrich: That is what I was thinking of doing.
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GWG Adding a way to control the behavior
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[unoabraham] Is there any other way to get backfeed working?
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[unoabraham] I'm using Bridgy but it
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[unoabraham] It's broken without the Microformats plugin.
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GWG [unoabraham]: Using a theme with Microformats
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[unoabraham] And the MF2 plugin breaks my theme... kind of a circle.
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GWG [unoabraham]: The MF2 plugin isn't Microformats.
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GWG They go in the theme
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[unoabraham] I have thought of that, and will even be giving it a try on a demo site.
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[unoabraham] But using a free theme for microformats support instead of premium themes costing several hundred dollars seems like no solution to me. Especially after the hours I've spent going through the tutorials and learning how to customize child themes.
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[unoabraham] I don't think that the theme developers will be open to adding in microformats support either.
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GWG [unoabraham]: That is why we came up with the compromise of a plugin, but it can't do very much, and is often thwarted by the developer unintentionally.
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GWG I'm going to look at it again, regardless.
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[unoabraham] Thanks.
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[unoabraham] I'm going to have a play with it. Will see how easy it is to add to a child theme. If it's easy then I can roll out a child theme that works with the Genesis Framework.
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GWG Do you know of a list of genesis filters?
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GWG If not, I'll try to find one.
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[unoabraham] No, but should be easy to find.
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[unoabraham] The max I've learned is some HTML, CSS, Conditional Tags, and Hooks. Was enough for my needs.
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[unoabraham] Not a natural coder... my background is accounting and investment banking.
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GWG Mine is Library Science
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GWG And I don't work in that or coding.
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GWG I work in corporate training
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[unoabraham] Ha ha... that's awesome. IndieWeb getting us all together.
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sknebel GWG: since you mentioned GDPR, this article has some things in Wordpress-plugin-context about it: https://premium.wpmudev.org/blog/everything-you-wanted-to-ask-a-gdpr-expert-but-were-afraid-to-ask/
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GWG sknebel: It isn't GPDR, it is what people think they get
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GWG !tell pfefferle I pushed a tag to the Indieweb plugin, and it didn't update. Did I miss something?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi misses something too
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[miklb] theme developers are already adding microformats, just the wrong microformats and that’s part of the problem. 99% of themes use the mf from outdated core WordPress themes, used those classes for styling, and now Core won’t change it because they don’t want to “break themes”. We need to convince them that the current broken mf is breaking themes wanting to use current standards.
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GWG How?
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[miklb] I’m not sure yet, but I’m going to start banging the drum. In semantic versioning, 5.0 should mean breaking API changes. Where else would it make sense to switch to core supporting mf2 than now?
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[miklb] a broken style hook isn’t the end of the world for developers
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GWG They just rejected another Pingback change till 5.0
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[miklb] I’m OK with pushing to 5.0 as long as it isn’t a veiled punt.
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GWG They once pushed a simple change 5 versions and it only got in because kraftbj pushed for it
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GWG The comments room on WordPress slack is abandoned for months, no attention there
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[miklb] then we need a more concerted effort to push the change. Instead of these things looking like one or two people.
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GWG I have not pushed much on the theme side, but my push for filters and hooks to support structured markup got poo pooed
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[miklb] a big squeaky wheel
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GWG Miklb, drive the train, I will be onboard
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GWG I just don't think I know who else to get
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[miklb] the greater IndieWeb community to start. aaronpk deals with broken WP all the time.
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[miklb] WP needs to be better web citizen in how it moves forward and interacts with the net.
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aaronpk the updated mf1 backcompat parsing has helped
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[miklb] is that generally on sites that aren’t trying to use mf2 though?
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aaronpk oh yeah no, broken mf1 on sites that don't know about mf2 is still a problem
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[miklb] I ask because I want to get the facts right when I present some of this in trac tickets.
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GWG aaronpk, I am working inside the WordPress Microformats 2 plugin today
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aaronpk things that are particularly bad are things like hfeed appearing on every page because it's in the <body> tag, or hentry appearing on feed pages because it's on the <body>
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GWG aaronpk, I got them to fix hfeed on the underscores starter theme and on new bundled themes.
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aaronpk oh nice
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[miklb] GWG++
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Loqi gwg has 54 karma in this channel (331 overall)
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[miklb] I hadn’t seen that
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GWG But not on every theme that exists
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GWG We need a tool to advise people
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GWG Maybe expand indiewebify.me?
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[miklb] there or build something for indiewp.com
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GWG I was thinking advising on markup extends beyond wp
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[miklb] ah. good point
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GWG But I would gladly put some training up on indiewp
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[miklb] blog posts > wiki pages IMO
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GWG But we have 33 open issues and two unreviewed PRs for indiewebify.me. Maybe I should give some time there
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chrisaldrich oh, speaking of indiewp, miklb, if you'd add me to it, that'd be great. my email is in my h-card
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[miklb] who is chrisaldrich
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Loqi Chris Aldrich (photo) Chris Aldrich is a talent manager, producer, and publisher who lives in Los Angeles, California. He tinkers on (read: breaks) the IndieWeb in his spare time. http://boffosocko.com Elsewhere: @chrisaldrich, /chrisaldrich, GitHub, ALL the rest https://indieweb.org/User:Boffosocko.com
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[miklb] sent! let me know if comes through though [chrisaldrich] I think I got mailgun setup for sending but you’re the first I’ve tested since doing everything manual
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chrisaldrich thanks!
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[miklb] Also my server isn’t configured to install plugins from the admin, most of what I use I manually install/update from GitHub repos, so if there’s a tool or plugin we need there, just holler.
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GWG We need something like indienews
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[miklb] but that also will allow us to test development versions in the wild so to speak.
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[pfefferle] what does “Table solving” mean?
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Loqi [pfefferle]: GWG left you a message 1 hour, 28 minutes ago: I pushed a tag to the Indieweb plugin, and it didn't update. Did I miss something?
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[miklb] I’m not familiar with that phrase [pfefferle] where did it come up?
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[pfefferle] https://github.com/snarfed/wordpress-micropub/issues/85#issuecomment-383399714
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Loqi [dshanske] Maybe that should be our decision. Table solving this problem till we have a proposal that factors in Gutenberg.
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[miklb] table as to move to backlog. Punt might be another way to phrase that. Punt on solving this until Gutenberg is factored in.
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[pfefferle] hmm.. ok, thanks
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GWG That's what I meant
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[miklb] if I’m not mistaken, table comes from like Robert’s Rules of Order or something like it. But I’ve also seen discussions where in some circles table means to put to a vote. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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GWG The block based thing is going to change everything
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GWG If we go along with it
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GWG It means it would change themes as well
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[miklb] hmm. I thought all the crazy stuff was going into HTML comments. No?
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chrisaldrich Another question is that for themes which might be changing as a result of gutenberg, is there a way that we can help folks to do better mf2 at the time of the change?
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[pfefferle] There is no real need to change something
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[pfefferle] Gutenberg will work with Most themes without big changes
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[pfefferle] And if there are, it is mostly css based
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[pfefferle] I should try it with sempress btw.
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Loqi yea
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GWG I got one developer interested in a reply block
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GWG Not enough to do anything though
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GWG I guess to be a WP developer, you have to do JS now
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GWG I think I need to support json feed in Post Kinds
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tantek re: all the arguments about lots of WordPress plugins vs a few (or one) IndieWeb plugin that just "does everything for you", note that Drupal is taking the "one plugin" approach - check out the list of functionality here: https://www.drupal.org/project/indieweb
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GWG I would consider merging some of them. I'm in the minority
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tantek GWG it almost sounds like there is a need for two kinds of indieweb plugins
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GWG Is there?
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tantek first, the dominant style preferred by people here, are the "small single function" plugins that allow for tinkering, mixing & matching etc. lots of preferences because everyone wants their own way
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GWG So, what is the compromise?
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tantek second, the actual style needed to grow IndieWeb WordPress into gen 2, 3, 4
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tantek which is *one* plugin that literally does the "best of indieweb building blocks" all in one
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tantek install and update just one plugin
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tantek not all this hassle of figuring out and managing different plugins, which for what purpose etc
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tantek There is no compromise, that's the problem
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tantek the folks here are nearly all gen 1 maybe gen 1.5 and nearly all want lots of differen tindieweb plugins for all the different features
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tantek however that is the antithesis of user-friendly
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tantek and the opposite of what works well for gen2-4
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tantek GWG, so which crowd do you want to prioritize on?
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GWG tantek: I am happy to merge my plugins together.
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GWG I cannot speak for others.
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GWG I think Micropub and IndieAuth could merge together into one thing.
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GWG I'm merging new functionality into Syndication Links instead of creating something new, as I originally thought.
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GWG I'd love to have Semantic Linkbacks and Webmentions together, but those aren't mine to merge.
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tantek GWG if you want to merge your plugins together, you'll have to make it clear that your merged super plugin is for ease-of-install and maintenance for gen2-4
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GWG Post Kinds is much more user friendly than hand-coded microformats, but I fear imposing my view of things on others.
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tantek otherwise you'll tons of issues / complaints from all the gen 1 folks asking for everything to be separate
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tantek the "one super plugin" is going to require that you impose a view / vision of ease-of-use
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GWG My next plan is to deprecate Bridgy Publish as a plugin. It is going to merge into Syndication Links
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GWG I'm going to start folding things into each other.
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GWG I think IndieAuth and Micropub can merge together.
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tantek GWG, the more you can merge plugins (and eliminate separate plugins) the better
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GWG tantek: https://github.com/snarfed/wordpress-micropub/issues/85#issuecomment-383397706
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Loqi [snarfed] i still don't use micropub much myself, so I'm gradually realizing that I'm the wrong person to own this plugin or drive its development. so, i don't expect to work on this change myself, but it's still probably still the single most important thing...
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GWG snarfed isn't actively working on Micropub. I think he'd be happy to give it up.
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GWG I'm the only regular contributor.
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GWG I'd like one more.
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GWG But I'm willing to take it on. It is easier for me if we merge it. The auth code in IndieAuth is duplicated in Micropub
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tantek I bet
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GWG But, what do you call that?
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tantek How about merging them both into the IndieWeb plugin?
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tantek if folks still want a separate "do nothing" installer, then create a separate plugin that someone else can maintain (whoever wants a bazillion plugins) called "IndieWeb Installer"
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GWG https://github.com/indieweb/wordpress-indieweb/issues/100
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Loqi [dshanske] #100 Consider Merging IndieAuth and Micropub into the Indieweb Plugin
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GWG I added to the proposal
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tantek awesome
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tantek GWG++
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Loqi gwg has 55 karma in this channel (332 overall)
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GWG Suggesting that the pieces, even within the repo, be required to act independently.
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GWG So, you don't want the whole thing, you just copy that directory.
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[pfefferle] GWG perhaps you should change jobs and find someone paying you for your indieweb work 😉
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GWG [pfefferle]: You know someone?
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[pfefferle] sadly not…
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GWG [pfefferle]: Is this about https://github.com/indieweb/wordpress-indieweb/issues/100
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Loqi [dshanske] #100 Consider Merging IndieAuth and Micropub into the Indieweb Plugin
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[pfefferle] otherwise I would work like that
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[pfefferle] good luck 🙂
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GWG [pfefferle]: I wouldn't mind spending more time on this.
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[pfefferle] who of us wouldn’t
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GWG [pfefferle]: What do you think of going backward?
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[pfefferle] backward?
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GWG [pfefferle]: To merging plugins into the Indieweb plugin
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[pfefferle] That’s how I started with the plugin https://github.com/indieweb/wordpress-indieweb/tree/e206f3eaff1d35e9a189977cb4becc146ec4fd79 🙂
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GWG I know
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GWG That's what I meant about backward
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[pfefferle] ah ok, got it…
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[pfefferle] might be the best for gen >=2
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[pfefferle] but as tantek said… I am one of the gen 1 nerds and I am not sure if I would use it…
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tantek there's definitely a tension there - as ideally plugins are selfdogfooded so problems can be found & solved quickly
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tantek however developers are much more likely to want to use / selfdogfood the small plugins than any one big plugin
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tantek not sure how to address that
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[pfefferle] me neither…
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[pfefferle] that’s why I reverted the idea
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[pfefferle] and tried the installer
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[pfefferle] but that seemed to work neither
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[pfefferle] and there come problem two… I have a day job, that has nothing to do with the whole indieweb stuff… so I have to priorize…
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GWG [pfefferle]: So do I.
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GWG That's why I suggested the pieces, by practice, be isolated within the plugin
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[pfefferle] and currently selfdogfooding always wins
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tantek [pfefferle]: that makes sense
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GWG I have no good answer to this
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[pfefferle] GWG that is not that easy… you have different settings for the bundle… you do have duplicate code for the seperate plugins…
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GWG And if we deprecate the separate plugins?
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[pfefferle] if you want to have a “perfect” indieweb bundle with a fokus on UI and UX you have to build it as a whole plugin!
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[pfefferle] as I said… I am not the one to ask… because I will not use the bundle
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GWG This is my problem.
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GWG No good solution
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[pfefferle] I think a bundled plugin IS a good solution!
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[pfefferle] at least for gen >= 2
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GWG But how do you reconcile that? Should we prioritize >=2 over >2
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tantek GWG you mean < 2?
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GWG Excuse me, inverted my <
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GWG Yes, less than vs greater than.
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[pfefferle] hard question… as a one man show it is a tough plan…
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[pfefferle] that is the main problem… there are a lot of people discussion the issues, but there is not much help when it comes to coding… at least for WP…
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[pfefferle] except the usual suspects 😉
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[pfefferle] If you find a sponsor and someone who can work fulltime on this project I would say “yes”
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tantek or even perhaps bounty / sponsors
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tantek might be worth checking with some of the webhosting companies who do WP installs
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tantek to see if they'd sponsor some IndieWeb WP plugin improvements
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tantek like Dreamhost
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[pfefferle] I work for one of the biggest in europe, but they are not yet interested
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[pfefferle] I had some similar ideas as I started the job 😉
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GWG [pfefferle]: That is why I'm thinking about consolidation. We have duplication in some areas. IndieAuth and Micropub both have IndieAuth code.
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[pfefferle] another problem… I think you are one of few people who has to deal with duplicate code… 😞
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GWG [pfefferle]: I opened the issue for discussion. Without it, my plan is to continue as I have.
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GWG I'm not giving up
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[pfefferle] 🙂
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tantek that's the spirit GWG!
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tantek.com edited /WordPress/Examples (+140) "move notable WordPress selfdogfooding ma.tt here" (view diff)
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GWG I am discouraged by Core and its reaction
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GWG But, I think, if you look at where we were in 2014, and where we are now, we've done a lot of good things.
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[pfefferle] sure…
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[pfefferle] but my journey started around 2007 😉
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GWG There is just a lot more to go.
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GWG [pfefferle]: I know. I'm starting from where I started in the community.
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GWG I joined in 2014, and have been working on this for 4 years, and learning a lot as I go.
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GWG Although not 100% on the indents. Sorry
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[pfefferle] 😄
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tantek hey y'all is this a good summary of WP on the Projects page? https://indieweb.org/projects#WordPress
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tantek (scroll up and down for the context)
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GWG Hi, [snarfed]
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[pfefferle] GWG is the core „API“ for the privacy policy feature documented anywhere or is this still work in progress?
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GWG [pfefferle]: Still a work in progress.
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GWG [pfefferle]: But I opened a bunch of ideas yesterday to work on.
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[pfefferle] So we have to wait until May to start with GDPR?
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GWG [pfefferle]: For a privacy policy, yes
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GWG But for tools to edit/delete data, no
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[pfefferle] Hmm
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GWG I wanted to work on editing incorrect webmention data for a while
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[pfefferle] What do you mean by incorrect
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GWG [pfefferle]: Incorrectly parsed.
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GWG Sometimes, it is because of something later fixed
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[pfefferle] 😉
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[pfefferle] I have to sleep for now
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[pfefferle] Good nicht