#wordpress 2018-06-19

2018-06-19 UTC
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GWG I did not know about LH Posse and LH Paragraph IDs, so no opinion there. The ones from Meitar Moscovitz are ones I've heard of, but they aren't up to date. I would reject anything that hasn't been updated to show it was tested with a version of WordPress made in the last 2 years.
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tantek GWG, would you consider a summary page on indieweb.org that lists each of them from those results and provides that kind of feedback?
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tantek I would love to give that out to people so they have some idea which are worth checking out at all and which to avoid
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GWG Under what URL?
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tantek what are wordpress plugins?
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Loqi WordPress Plugins are plugins that can help make your site more IndieWeb friendly https://indieweb.org/WordPress/Plugins
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tantek that one. needs a summary table at the top
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tantek listing the plugins with their logos just as https://wordpress.org/plugins/search/indieweb/ does
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GWG I have to remember how to do mediawiki tables
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tantek I can help with that
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tantek or you can copy/paste from guestbook
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tantek what is iws guestbook
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "iws guestbook" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "iws guestbook is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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tantek IWS Guestbook is /2018/Guest_Book
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Loqi ok
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GWG I have to update the guestbook as well
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GWG I think I forgot to check it
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tantek GWG, ping me when you get started and I'll help with table formatting
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GWG Okay.
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GWG Making dinner now, and will likely do a bit after or while I'm waiting for the food to cook
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[jgmac1106] [tantek] at @gwg I haven't gotten to the plug ins yet in my WP Beginners guide. Have one theme to finish and then want to move on to each plug in.
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tantek huh, kinda surprised the IndieWeb plugin is not even listed near the top of /WordPress/Plugins
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GWG tantek: I think I should look at all the pages.
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tantek [jgmac1106]: a bit surprised there's no summary/overview
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[jgmac1106] Working on my sub user page. All the WP pages need overhaul
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tantek [jgmac1106]: not sure I agree. bursts of overhauls are not really sustainable, everything goes gradually out of date
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[jgmac1106] Changes were so big I didn't want to do on my own. There is a useful table of all themes and plug in on some pages
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[jgmac1106] Okay, just did not want to make major changes deleting all the indiemark stuff
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tantek why do you need to delete?
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tantek that has nothing to do with summary/overview
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tantek here, for example (edit coming)
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[jgmac1106] https://indieweb.org/User:Jgregorymcverry.com/getting-started-with-WordPress-for-beginners
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tantek.com edited /WordPress/Plugins (+504) "WordPress Directory IndieWeb Plugins, Plugins by feature, fix heading levels" (view diff)
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[jgmac1106] https://indieweb.org/Getting_Started_on_WordPress is current page
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tantek [jgmac1106]: that's a good start for beginners. what's missing is a start for someone who is an expert in WordPress, but not indieweb
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tantek jgmac1106: we're talking about two different things
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tantek I was specifically asking about Plugins
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tantek not "getting started with wordpress" in general
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[jgmac1106] Sorry didn't mean to derail. I like the edits you did [cjwillcock] working on page for advanced users, but yes plugin page never needed too much love. It is in decent shape.
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tantek GWG, when you get a moment, can you review/verify this subsection? https://indieweb.org/WordPress/Plugins#WordPress_Directory_IndieWeb_Plugins
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[miklb] I think the webmention for comments has been deprecated and rolled into the webmention plugin
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tantek jgmac1106: from a newcomer's viewpoint, the Plugins page still needs work to be usable (and less wall of text with links buried in prose)
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[miklb] the IndieAuth plugin description needs updating to the latest 3.x version
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GWG Yes.
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tantek miklb what URL needs updating?
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[miklb] the one you just linked to?
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[jgmac1106] Yep, hoping we spend time hacking on many WP pages at summit...or dedicate an hour of an HWC sometime
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tantek I'm guessing the IndieAuth plugin is described on numerous pages
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[miklb] https://indieweb.org/WordPress/Plugins#Webmention_Support that has the section about wm comments
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tantek plus it has its own pages right?
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tantek wait the IndieAuth section does not link to an IndieAuth plugin
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tantek it links to just the IndieWeb plugin
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tantek https://indieweb.org/WordPress/Plugins#IndieAuth
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miklb.com edited /WordPress/Plugins (+49) "/* Webmention Support */" (view diff)
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[miklb] https://indieweb.org/WordPress/Plugins#IndieAuth
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tantek yeah that links to IndieWeb plugin, not IndieAuth plugin
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[miklb] ah, so it’s totally out of date
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[miklb] right, because we didn’t have an Indieauth plugin that allowed you to use your own site
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[miklb] don’t need to use indieauth.com anymore for authentication
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[miklb] bugs not withstanding
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[jgmac1106] I would add the IndieWeb plugin first followed by all the plugins it includes, there are many out of date things on page.
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tantek miklb, should we recommend that people *uninstall* "Webmentions for Comments" ?
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[miklb] yes, it is deprecated and those features are now in the core webmention plugin
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[miklb] I’m not sure it was ever available from wp.org though. Someone would have had to FTP/ssh install it from GitHub
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GWG It never was. It was always meant to be a test until merged
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[miklb] it was always marked as experimental iirc in the readme
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[jgmac1106] @gwg [miklb] happy to schedule a writing hour or two. Will have time on Wednesday. Can work on that page rather than Getting Started. Even if I just brainstorm with you on the changes
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[jgmac1106] [tantek] and one day have to let me know why wiki talk page isn't used. Perfect for tracking stuff like this and letting people jump in to edit
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tantek jgmac1106: when you say "perfect for" - which other mediawiki installs have you had that experience?
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[miklb] on a positive note, I scheduled a note that POSSEd to Twitter this morning and got a lot more engagement than had I posted it when I thought about it at 1am. Worked flawlessly
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[miklb] https://miklb.com/blog/2018/06/18/3972/
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tantek jgmac1106: this is a good example of why talk pages are not necessarily the right scope. the problem here is larger than a specific page, thus using a specific talk page would likely just result in a lost discussion
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Loqi [Michael Bishop] Hey home automation friends! If you were starting from scratch, what system would you invest in? Ideally Homekit compatible.
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tantek miklb++ awesome!
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Loqi miklb has 21 karma in this channel (76 overall)
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GWG [miklb]: Home Assistant
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GWG I'm biased.
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[miklb] that came up as part of the suggestions. I was more curious about hardware and if there was a go-to brand.
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tantek.com edited /WordPress/Plugins (-393) "/* Webmention Support */ make the install links more obvious, simplify further enhance, cut a plugin that never made the directory (moving to other section)" (view diff)
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[miklb] that’s probably the first time in 13 years of WP use I’ve scheduled a post personally. Just seemed neater also being a scheduled tweet.
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tantek.com edited /WordPress/Plugins (+320) "/* Other Indieweb Plugins */ move Webmentions for Comments here to a new Obsolete section" (view diff)
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tantek miklb that's the first time I know of anyone doing a /scheduled post and automatic POSSE!
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[miklb] tantek++ for wiki gardening the WP section
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Loqi tantek has 2 karma in this channel (445 overall)
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tantek miklb, could you re-review this subsection: https://indieweb.org/WordPress/Plugins#Webmention_Support ?
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tantek (I feel I am editing a bit blindly as I have not installed these plugins myself)
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GWG I will be working on it in a bit.
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[miklb] I’d only say that the video link is from 2014…a lot has changed
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tantek feel free to remove it, it did sound a bit dated when I watched a bit, but I didn't know enough to make a decision about removing
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GWG Yes. We need a new one
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[jgmac1106] @gwg and we need to add indieweb plug in and describe the hcard widget. I would also list the plugins it includes
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GWG I figured I would do it once I finish eating.
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tantek GWG, miklb right. You two have better perspective on whether it is better to keep the current old video, or to remove it until a new video is ready.
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[miklb] I didn’t actually watch it, I just know a lot has changed. I don’t know what the policy on that would be as far as removing deprecated documentation.
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[jgmac1106] [chrisaldrich] has an updated pencast
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[jgmac1106] And a new IndieWeb video that could replace, though not sure if that is WP specific
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tantek [miklb] whichever is less harmful. keeping the old video, or removing it. I trust your judgment.
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miklb.com edited /WordPress/Plugins (-68) "/* Other Indieweb Plugins */ removed deprecated plugin" (view diff)
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[jgmac1106] wow I never even knew there was an IndieNews plugin
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GWG [jgmac1106]: It isn't in the repo
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[jgmac1106] doesn't need to be, but will be adding. That is cool. See criticism section. GitHub v WordPress
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david.shanske.com edited /WordPress/Plugins (-88) "/* Webmention Support */" (view diff)
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chrisaldrich I started doing a series of new videos last week. Got two short sections done and will be trying to do one for each of the major plugins. Probably won't finish until after IWS sometime though.
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chrisaldrich In some part it's a breakdown in to smaller pieces of the longer two hour one I did last month some time
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[eddie] Hmmm interesting [miklb] where in the UI does your site break when logging into Indigenous?
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[eddie] I just tried and it breaks with this error: IndieAuth Server did not return the same state parameter
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[jgmac1106] awesome [chrisaldrich] I am doing a write up of each plugin but as [tantek] noted it will be more tutorial for beginner crowd
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[miklb] [eddie] I get redirected back to the login screen, no errors
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[eddie] Hmm interesting
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[eddie] I get sent to the login page but with the error
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[miklb] only thing is that 302 in access.log
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[eddie] How strange
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[miklb] I have full debugging on and no errors or warnings thrown on the WP side
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david.shanske.com edited /WordPress/Plugins (-111) "/* Publishing to Your Site */" (view diff)
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david.shanske.com edited /WordPress/Plugins (-445) "/* Multi silo plugins */" (view diff)
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[eddie] I notice http/2.0 in the log. Is that normal? Is http/2.0 common place now?
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[miklb] I believe so
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[eddie] Hmm. Yeah I feel like whatever is going on in yours must be some session weird was with the plugin. Because the 302 is sending you to a url with reauth=1
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[miklb] micropub.rocks handles it at least
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david.shanske.com edited /WordPress/Plugins (-305) "/* rel-syndication */" (view diff)
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[eddie] So do you think Wordpress is sending indigenous a 302 error? Is that’s what is happening? And indigenous isn’t following it?
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[miklb] that might be better answered by aaronpk or GWG
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[eddie] What tricky thing is the OAuth 2.0 logic is actually built into iOS. It’s called SFAuthenticationSession, and I give it the OAuth 2 url and it does the rest
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GWG It shouldn't do a 302.
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[eddie] 🤔
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GWG Wait.
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GWG It would.
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GWG https://developer.wordpress.org/reference/functions/wp_redirect/
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GWG That is the default status
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GWG Am I better off with a different one?
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[eddie] I notice the 302 is appending reauth=1 does that mean there’s a session issue?
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GWG [eddie]: No. It does that.
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[eddie] I think 302 itself should be fine,
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[eddie] What happens if you log in again a second time [miklb] ?
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[eddie] Does it just keep looping to login?
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[miklb] I wind up logged into my WP site admin, but no way to get back to the iOS app without canceling basically
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[eddie] Ohhh hmm 🤔
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david.shanske.com edited /WordPress/Plugins (+22) (view diff)
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david.shanske.com edited /WordPress/Plugins (-252) "/* IndieAuth */" (view diff)
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david.shanske.com edited /WordPress/Plugins (-16) "/* Other Indieweb Plugins */" (view diff)
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david.shanske.com edited /WordPress/Plugins (-413) "/* Criticisms */" (view diff)
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jgregorymcverry.com edited /WordPress/Plugins (+9) (view diff)
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jgmac1106 at [gwg] I would put the indieweb plug in above == Plugin by Feature == Describe the plugin, how the hcard widget works, and then list all the plugin it recommends as “extenstions” with anchor links to descriptions below
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GWG I just fixed the IndieAuth section.
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[jgmac1106] https://files.slack.com/files-pri/T03QR2B2T-FBASU353R/screenshot_2018-06-18_22.17.36.png?pub_secret=8b82f136cc&name=Screenshot 2018-06-18 22.17.36.png This is what's happenign in Bridgy. It is like a parsed url is stuck. I have tried multiple broswers and such. Going to delete Mastodon Auttoo, its too slow anyways see if that helps
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jgregorymcverry.com edited /WordPress/Plugins (+640) (view diff)
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jgregorymcverry.com edited /WordPress/Plugins (-4) "/* WordPress Directory IndieWeb Plugins */" (view diff)
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jgregorymcverry.com edited /WordPress/Plugins (-4) "/* WordPress Directory IndieWeb Plugins */" (view diff)
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jgregorymcverry.com edited /WordPress/Plugins (-4) "/* WordPress Directory IndieWeb Plugins */" (view diff)
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jgregorymcverry.com edited /WordPress/Plugins (-4) "/* WordPress Directory IndieWeb Plugins */" (view diff)
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jgregorymcverry.com edited /WordPress/Plugins (+17) "/* WordPress Directory IndieWeb Plugins */" (view diff)
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jgmac1106 [gwg] Honestly what need to happen is start at each plug in page, most have one, agree to a common text structure, then go back and finish this meta page, then edit and/or populate each plugin page. I would also change the plug-in by feature to === Additional PlugIns ===
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jgmac1106 and [tantek] when it comes to writing, if I want things to be useful, I always favor deleting as much as I can. Fining your meaning without one extra word. That’s the challenge
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jgmac1106 Plus we know the longer a scroll the less the audience comprehends, but too many clicks and navigational fatigue messes with comprhension. The balance of writing and web design
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Ruxton GWG: are you handling releases of wordpress-micropub? 1.4.3 isn't working with indieauth plugin/owg but the master branch is, can you do a release so it's all working together?
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GWG Ruxton, snarfed gave me that ability, yes
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loqi.me created /WordPress_Post-Kinds_Plugin (+30) "prompted by tantek__ and redirect added by tantek__" (view diff)
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tantek__ what is WordPress Bridgy Plugin
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "WordPress Bridgy Plugin" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "WordPress Bridgy Plugin is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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tantek__ what is WordPress Microformats2 Plugin
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "WordPress Microformats2 Plugin" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "WordPress Microformats2 Plugin is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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tantek__ what is WordPress WebSub Plugin
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "WordPress WebSub Plugin" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "WordPress WebSub Plugin is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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tantek.com edited /WordPress/Plugins (+103) "link to the IndieWeb Plugin instead of just a frustrating bold text with no obvious way to act on it 😂; link all the plugins mentioned" (view diff)
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GWG I am discontinuing the Bridgy plugin soon
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tantek_ GWG oh no! What is replacing it?
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[jgmac1106] @gwg makes sense. You don't have time to maintain them all and so far I am the only one who relies on it for syndication and it does wonky things at different time
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[jgmac1106] [tantek] when I was going through last night I thought I linked to any plugin with an existing page
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[jgmac1106] but @gwg I have heard folks say, but not definitively that jetpack can mess up mf2. Is that true?
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tantek__ jgmac1106: they all need their own pages, better to link to them as if they exist to prompt the redlinks and make it more obvious to more people that the pages need to be created
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chrisaldrich jgmac1106, I've not seen any evidence that jetpack does much if anything with mf2.
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chrisaldrich Typically jetpack is injecting bits of data into various areas of one's post/pages, but if they're properly marked up by the theme, it's not a problem.
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tantek_ what should it do?
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[jgmac1106] thx [chrisaldrich] not sure where I picked up the mistruth then. Do use JetPack or SNAP,
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chrisaldrich Now on the other hand if your theme is wonky, Jetpack can inject things like "Related" or their "Like block" that will syndicate out, but that's a problem with the theme, not with jetpack
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chrisaldrich I use both for various things. Slowly moving away from using SNAP though.
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[jgmac1106] [tantek] will go through and build out the article stubs tomorrow if not filled in. Yeah SNAPed asked for everything but my first born, scared me away, and JetPack....well why does Automatic need a ghost copy of my site? I am sure it is not nefarious...
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chrisaldrich jgmac1106, a ghost copy? how so? I think it hooks directly into your code/database so you can use wordpress.com infrastructure to manage multiple sites. I don't think it makes a ghost copy?
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tantek__ jgmac1106: good questions - you should add them to those pages as issues or criticism
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tantek__ what is SNAP
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Loqi SNAP (Social Network Auto Poster) is a POSSE plugin for WordPress https://indieweb.org/SNAP
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tantek__ what is JetPack
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Loqi Jetpack is an opensource WordPress plugin that adds many site management tools including visitor stats, security services, performance improvements, and syndication options https://indieweb.org/Jetpack
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tantek__ jgmac1106: ^^^
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[jgmac1106] "By activating these features, you grant us permission to display your Jetpack Content on WordPress.com for the purpose of distributing and promoting your website."
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[jgmac1106] "As part of the required connection to WordPress.com, Jetpack syncs your site’s data to a shadow site on the WordPress.com servers." I mean I trust automatic and all but a "shadow site" I just want the syndication features, but I think I trust Automatic more than SNAP, and Bridgy isn't wonky
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tantek__ wow that's not a creepy way to phrase it at all (!!!) "shadow site" ??? who write this copy?😂
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chrisaldrich Wow, I'd never seen that, and it's dreadful wording.
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chrisaldrich I was aware that JetPack had a feature that allowed you to mirror your photos to WordPress servers as a CDN so your site and photos would load faster using their "Photon" technology.
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jgmac1106_ [chrisaldrich] that is why I liked an IndieWeb solution to POSSE but [gwg] can’t mantain all the plugins and Bridgy has serious issues
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chrisaldrich Bridgy is perfect if you've got 100% perfect mark up for all the cases you use it for. The root issue you're probably experiencing with it is one of its core principles: https://snarfed.org/2015-11-29_keep-bridgy-publish-dumb
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chrisaldrich Bridgy is a great solution for syndication for people building their own systems from the ground up, but it is a jury rigged system at best for WordPress because it relies solely on core, your theme markup, and your plugin markup after the fact to do the correct thing. There are too many variables in the middle with WordPress and that's what makes it hard for most to use.
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chrisaldrich A better approach for using Bridgy Publish to syndicate is to try writing your own markup by hand for it (and not rely on the plugin portion). This will give you a better idea about what to expect to syndicate across and what the particular issues are for use with WordPress.
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chrisaldrich It'll also be a nice exercise in better understanding microformats and what they're capable of on your site and within your theme.
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[miklb] to clarify GWG’s message about the Bridgy plugin, he’s discontinuing the plugin by the name Bridgy Publish. The features to allow syndicate-to will be rolled into the syndication links plugin which will be renamed. There will still be an easy way to use Bridgy, you will just be required to register outside of the WP plugin. Too many people were confusing the plugin with the service and blaming him for stuff not working.
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chrisaldrich One of the biggest issues with WordPress for IndieWeb (and related tool use) is that a lot of it relies on proper microformats which aren't done in either core or in most themes. If core would update to a more correct setup and leave the rest to theme developers who knew what was required, everything would be much smoother sailing.
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[miklb] This will also allow other syndicate-to to be easily added to a similar UI that the Bridgy Publish plugin now uses and is all pretty much hardcoded.
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jgmac1106_ thx [miklb] and nobody ever blames you [gwg]. We may ping you when weird stuff happens but we are always grateful never upset
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chrisaldrich It's similar to what Churchill said about democracy: WordPress for IndieWeb is the worst system (for Gen2+) out there, except for all the rest. ;)
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jgmac1106_ [chrisaldrich] and [miklb] I have a few contributors who have been trying to capture how each syndication tool behaves in each of the four themes, will hold off on until Bridgy is folded into syndication and have folks work on JetPack and SNAP
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jgmac1106_ Goes and creates Churchill a Known instance…..I would just need to learn to make a new post kind plugins for all the toys [gwg] built in post-kinds. Seriously need to decide if I will have my students run just WordPress, WordPress+Known, or just Known. Still leaning to just WordPress as I don’t want to make “setting up a MySQL database tutorial”
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chrisaldrich jgmac1106_ if you haven't run across it yet, this is my favorite line of code in WithKnown: https://github.com/idno/Known/blob/5e191e85bdd9aaac3337ddf68cb862ff00774caf/templates/default/shell/syndication.tpl.php#L1
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jgmac1106_ oh yeah love it
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chrisaldrich BenWerd++
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Loqi benwerd has 1 karma in this channel (142 overall)
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jgmac1106_ thought it had his fingerprints all over it. Great writer
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jgmac1106_ [chrisaldrich] Do you have issues with JetPack syndicating replies to Twitter. My last few haven’t gone at all.
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jgmac1106_ though I am not having any luck syndicating with JetPack right now either. May try SNAP. Weird thoguh JetPack should just work
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tantek__ miklb, thanks for the explanation re: Bridgy Publish plugin. Since some features are being rolled into Syndication Links (to be renamed), perhaps we could explain that as a merger of sorts? Just so folks have a path forward. I can sympathize with the confusion problem you refer to.
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[miklb] I’ll leave that to GWG tantek, as the timeline is in flux. He’s trying to get a lot done so not sure it will happen before IWS, just wanted to clarify as I know he’s @ work.
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tantek__ empathizes with trying to get a lot done 😓
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chrisaldrich jgmac1106 with JetPack I notice that it often loses it's connection with silos and needs to be reconnected frequently. Perhaps that's your issue with Twitter at the moment? I don't often use that route to syndicate replies however as it doesn't understand threading replies natively the way other methods often do.
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[jgmac1106] Do you use Bridgy to thread? Then Jetpack for everything else? I can only use reply post kinds with a Twitter url. Can't syndicate and reply to a blog. Have to use Quote postkind
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gRegorLove I don't know if Jack has commented here about this, but is there a way to aid his debugging with post kinds plugin and micropub requests? Context in https://github.com/gRegorLove/indiebookclub/issues/8
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Loqi [jackjamieson2] #8 Feature: Support URL paths when logging in
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gRegorLove "(1) Wordpress's post editor seems to only partially load for posts created in indiebookclub"
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gRegorLove "(2) Post titles are prefaced with the text 'array'. This problem goes away when I disable the post kinds plugin"
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[wiobyrne] Hive mind, among my many hats, I'm also the "webmaster" for the newly formed North American branch of GAPMIL (Global Alliance for Partnerships on Media and Information Literacy) for UNESCO. As such, I'm tasked with building up a WordPress site that will begin as primarily informational...and then I'm hoping to have a cadre of bloggers and a wiki (of sorts) to help people crap-detect online. To that end...anyone have advice on a good Wor
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[wiobyrne] use as we/I get rolling?
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[wiobyrne] I love the DML Hub look...but we don't have the content at this point to show that robust of a blog feed.
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[wiobyrne] https://dmlhub.net/
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[jgmac1106] [wiobyrne] if you want the clean material look go with Independent. SemPress or 2016 fine for text based posts. Of course if you don't care about IndieWeb stuff pick any theme you like. I like Hueman and Fluida. [cjwillcock] and I are trying to think about a "more multimodal" theme we can connect to IndieWeb
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[wiobyrne] I started using Hueman but I hated the plugins and such that I had to add to make it work.
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[wiobyrne] I'd like to build in indieweb behind the scenes on this site. The plan is to build it in and then when others start to use/interact with the site, I'll have a chance to have a chat to show them what we can do with it.
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[wiobyrne] I'd also like to have bloggers syndicate content for the site when they post. Share it first on your site...and we syndicate on our site. Connect everything with the social media accounts we need to build.
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gRegorLove Think I tracked down the post kinds issue I mentioned above. Filed https://github.com/dshanske/indieweb-post-kinds/issues/180
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Loqi [gRegorLove] #180 read-status displaying "Array"
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GWG I knew about it this morning. Sorry
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gRegorLove No problem!
[kim_landwehr] joined the channel