#wordpress 2018-06-20

2018-06-20 UTC
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tantek__ jgmac1106: with the points you've made about getting mf2 right in the theme etc., and what miklb said about the Bridgy Publish plugin also being sensitive to (requiring) proper mf2 markup before it works well, I'm wondering if it's better to encourage existing WordPress installs to first get their mf2 working, then second install plugins
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tantek__ or are there some (many? most?) plugins that work regardless of what markup is setup on the theme?
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tantek__ what I'm trying to avoid is this: an existing WordPress user installs all the current IndieWeb Plugins, and configures them. Then *new* things start breaking, e.g. weird POSSE to their Twitter account, their comments from their posts when sent via webmention to other blogs show up with incorrect info (author, icon, summary, permalink etc.)
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tantek__ or maybe three steps? 1. install "basic" indieweb plugins that work regardless of theme markup, 2. fix theme markup to be proper mf2, perhaps with the "microformats plugin" (verify with Indiewebify.me), then 3. install more plugins (Webmentions, Semantic Linkbacks, etc.)
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aaronpk The question is how to tell if your markup is working aside from using it with Bridgy publish or having their comments appear somewhere else
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tantek__ indiewebify.me validation
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aaronpk The markup isn't useful by itself until it's actually used for stuff
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tantek__ indiewebify.me's h-entry validator should test everything that's "actually used for stuff"
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aaronpk indiewebify.me doesn't test the full range of things that can go wrong with those use cases
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tantek__ then it should, and we should file issues for each such thing that can go wrong
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tantek__ if you know what those things are, it would be great to file the issues as a set
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tantek__ that would make for a good coding sprint
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tantek__ group effort to upgrade indiewebify.me's h-entry validator so it checks everything you need for your posts to work well for syndication, and being received as comments, likes, etc.
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[jgmac1106] [tantek] direction I am taking is first saying recommend one of four themes, this is how each theme operates and required plugins for said theme
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tantek__ [jgmac1106]: that works for new users, yet existing wordpress users are likely to already have setup a theme they like (and shouldn't have to switch away from)
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[jgmac1106] If you want to test one of your for themes use these plugins and try indiewebify.me if comfortable or just ask in chat to have us look at your source code
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tantek__ jgmac1106: are you following the chat in #indieweb-meta? I think indiewebify.me needs a champion or at least a wrangler
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[jgmac1106] But you have to. I would like to be on Hueman but we can't control the mf2, a theme update, or WordPress update. Each of those breaks things all the time. That isn't IndieWeb that is life of WordPress users
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[jgmac1106] Every theme is a Sophie's choice of compatible plugins
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[jgmac1106] Let me get kids to bed just back from running cub Scout field day will read up
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tantek__ GWG, any luck with adding a plugins table to the top of https://indieweb.org/WordPress/Plugins ?
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[jgmac1106] [wiobyrne] why not one domain and give everyone their own subdomain with the instance you want installed. I think there are issues with multiauthor instances but not sure.
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[miklb] I will be in full WordPress mode this week. I am challenging myself to finish a version of the mf2 starter theme I’ve been talking about for over a year for IWS. Feel free to bug me this week asking about it. The goal would be a totally stripped down mf2 compliant theme that can be easily used as a parent theme or a starting point to build a more robust theme.
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jgmac1106 miklb++
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Loqi miklb has 22 karma in this channel (77 overall)
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[miklb] it probably won’t be on wp.org any time soon, but I will work to make it easy to install & update
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jgmac1106 [wiobyrne] building this for a Board I sit on: https://lcgnh.jgregorymcverry.com/ trying to get them to ditch the slider for for icons and four facts, will get there
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tantek__ jgmac1106: I think I agree that using IndieMark as the top level headings for the WordPress Getting Start Page was both unnecessary, and perhaps added confusion (introducing a new term that may not matter to the reader)
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tantek__ jgmac1106: check out this revision of the WP Getting Start page before it got re-organized by IndieMark: https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?title=Getting_Started_on_WordPress&oldid=29827
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tantek__ note how flat the ToC is. I like that organization, it is very flat step-by-step directly by most commonly expected desired functionality
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tantek__ !tell chrisaldrich do you remember what motivated rewriting/re-organizing the /Getting_Started_on_WordPress page by IndieMark headings at the top level? Upon reflection, it looks like that may have hurt the usability of the page. Trying to remember why we went down the path.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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jgmac1106 [tantek] hope to finish rewrite tomorrow. It is here for now: https://indieweb.org/User:Jgregorymcverry.com/getting-started-with-WordPress-for-beginners [chrisaldrich] and I decided that the page was so rough it was better to start on subpage and then we would find time to work together at summit
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tantek__ Thanks jgmac1106, miklb, GWG. Based on what I understand and heard here, I am currently only recommending five plugins to an existing WordPress blog: * IndieWeb Plugin for WordPress * Webmention Plugin * Semantic Linkbacks * Post Kinds Plugin * Micropub for WordPress, and then also updating their theme with microformats2 support, testable with indiewebify.me
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tantek__ that seems like a good amount of functionality to get working before trying to get POSSE/PESOS/backfeed working
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jgmac1106 yes
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jgmac1106 though there are differing opinions on post kinds, some people love the taxonomy approach others like sticking with the standard post types provided by WP or think other post types shoudl be handled differently, but that is getting into the weeds, the approach you suggest is best
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tantek__ I'd like to see above reflecting that kind of thinking on the main Getting Started With WordPress page
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tantek__ I think we have a better chance with existing WordPress users, that are used to a bit of configuration and tweaking being necessary to get things working
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tantek__ in contrast to total beginners who likely have a high expectation of things "just working" (e.g. like their social media apps "just work"), and then would likely get frustrated quickly with theme vs. plugin conflicts etc.
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tantek__ Feel free to tell me if I am totally off-base here, but that is my current impression
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tantek__ trying to be both realistic and optimistic
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jgmac1106 [tantek] I started this: https://indieweb.org/User:Jgregorymcverry.com/theme-developer-guide
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tantek__ jgmac1106: interesting. WDYT of separating the last section only for theme developers that expect to share or publish their theme for others to use?
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jgmac1106 if they handle the h-card in their theme some other way they may not need the IndieWeb plugin
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tantek__ (e.g. I'm talking with a couple of wordpress folks that maintain a theme that they don't publish for others)
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jgmac1106 …yeah that was the target audience of the page. Not sure there is a difference to the approach it would just be “Install” rather than “Recommend” could easily split the page and move it off my subpage and onto an article stub
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tantek__ isn't it just fewer steps?
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tantek__ as in, if you're only developing this theme for yourself, you can stop here.
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tantek__ if you're developing a theme to publish or share to others, read-on
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jgmac1106 yeah so make the split or seperate page
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tantek__ that kind of thing
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tantek__ no need to make it a separate page
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tantek__ section splits are likely enough, with a clear explanation at the division
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jgmac1106 https://indieweb.org/User:Cjwillcock.ca/starting-with-wordpress also been doing some exploring of what this actually takes. More Kerouac Spontaneous Prose than documentation yet but he is going to help mantain theme developer page.
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jgmac1106 I should probably remove the run the theme through indiewebify.me as the first step for now, and just link to mf2 wiki, the post-types page, etc. The beginners guide more important to me as I have to have a ton of people use it in July to launch
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Loqi yea!
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jgmac1106 [tantek] is this the table you wanted [gwg] to build: https://indieweb.org/User:Cjwillcock.ca/starting-with-wordpress#plugins maybe done
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tantek__ jgmac1106: no, was thinking one row per plugin, with the plugin logo, author, description etc. just like (preferably better than) https://wordpress.org/plugins/search/indieweb/
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tantek__ but with only the actually new / modern plugins that this community is actively recommending (and willing to help answer questions about, troubleshoot etc.)
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jgmac1106 okay that was on my agenda anyway. Will get it to it tomorrow instead of finishing the four indieweb theme writeups
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GWG Okay, up to date now
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www.boffosocko.com edited /WordPress/Plugins (+4251) "A start for a UX friendly table for common WordPress plugins for IndieWeb" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /WordPress/Plugins () "(-581) /* Common Plugins */ make "short" descriptions short!" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /WordPress/Plugins (-86) "/* Common Plugins */ put install & feedback in the same column, no need for three columns for that, reduce another short description to be shorter" (view diff)
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Ruxton GWG: fyi you didn't fill the date out in the changelog when you updated post kinds ;) says "3.0.8 ( 2018-06-xx )"
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tantek__ hopes chrisaldrich is ok with the aggressive editing :)
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jgmac1106 table looks good [tantek] and [chrisaldrich]
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GWG !tell Ruxton I'm glad someone reads them
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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jgmac1106 morning [gwg]
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GWG jgmac1106: Morning. What is going on?
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jgmac1106 Trying to recruit schools for the IndieWeb grant I am applying for. Got the scientific advisory board filled out. Excited about that. Top scholars in the world, can only help with application
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GWG Good luck
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jgmac1106 Then off to campus for a geography information systems grant I am doing, then I am going to try and write the “How to Launch Known” and WordPress IndiewWeb tutorials for Reclaim Hosting, cap it off with a Board of Directors meeting where I show off our site (need to see if IndieWeb will work on theme) and cap it off with my vHWC: Blogging 101. Fun day
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jgmac1106 [gwg] theme I am using has a native events post type, wonder how hard it would be to make sure the tempalte produces an h-event. Doubt the mf2 plugin handles that use case
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jgmac1106 https://lcgnh.jgregorymcverry.com/
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GWG jgmac1106: This is why custom post types are best in plugins, to avoid theme dependencies. But, it probably isn't that hard if you need help
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jgmac1106 yeah I will take a look has to have a template.php file, is their an event post-kind already?
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jgmac1106 Was thinking you [miklb] and [pferelle] shouldn’t be afraid to charge for themes, or do the free them and paid theme with technical support
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jgmac1106 Many people I know use paid themese not because they are better but because they come with support and being WordPress something will always break
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jgmac1106 this is the events plugin we use: https://wordpress.org/plugins/event-calendar-wd/ Gonna see if I can work with it to add h-event
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Loqi [WebDorado] Description Event Calendar WD is a responsive calendar plugin for organizing events. This WordPress calendar lets you manage and publish unlimited event calendars on your site. Event Calendar WD Special Offer for all Premium Plugins WordPress Even...
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GWG Okay, I see what they did.
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GWG It should be doable.
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jgmac1106 says plugin is open source, I was able to find the files, an IndieWeb WordPress Event and Calendar PlugIn would be a cool project for somebody. Not sure if this is best ofe to fork but it is popular
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GWG I may do events, but I am a more barebones sorr
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GWG sort
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[jgmac1106] Barebone always better. Though I like the date, location, and time form fields
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GWG I have those
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GWG I did a lot with time and location in Simple Location
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jgmac1106 oooh I could probably even fork simple location and turn it into an h-event widget, the calendar display would be too much but making the event..Might be my next channel
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[jgmac1106] challenge*
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GWG Why fork, not PR?
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GWG Or extend
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[jgmac1106] I can try the PR, they reached out to me on Twitter
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[miklb] [jgmac1106] I intend to offer custom paid work for the theme framework I’m building as well as general web/WP/IW consulting/development
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[miklb] maybe someday a premium version, but that’s not on immediate radar
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[jgmac1106] Zip me an email to mcverryj1@southernct.edu If I get this federal grant (usually dinged first submission) there will be money for WP development if I go that way instead of Known. Need to be a legal entity (if you do not have one yet) by August 16th. For now would just require letter of support.
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jackjamieson gRegorLove and GWG: Thanks for looking into the post kind template for read posts so quickly yesterday!
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tantek_ thanks jgmac1106! (re: table) could someone help with embedding the logos from https://wordpress.org/plugins/search/indieweb/ into the table at the top of https://indieweb.org/WordPress/Plugins ? Thanks!
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GWG tantek: Makes me think I need a better logo
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[chrisaldrich] tantek, thanks for cleaning that table up a bit; mostly I wanted to get it started by cutting and pasting what we had.
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Loqi [chrisaldrich]: tantek__ left you a message 22 hours, 51 minutes ago: do you remember what motivated rewriting/re-organizing the /Getting_Started_on_WordPress page by IndieMark headings at the top level? Upon reflection, it looks like that may have hurt the usability of the page. Trying to remember why we went down the path.
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[chrisaldrich] The original WP getting started page probably should never have had Indiemark at all since Indiemark is a better structural framework for those building sites from the metal up... I left it in because it was already there for structure, but future revisions could leave it out for jargon reasons.
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[chrisaldrich] Though it does highlight just how much you get from a default WP install.