#wordpress 2018-08-19

2018-08-19 UTC
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[pfefferle] aaronpk, so you send the new posts to all of your followers?
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aaronpk Yeah, that's the "deliver to your followers' inboxes" model
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aaronpk im not a huge fan of it, but it does have the advantage of making private posts and DMs work the same way
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[tantek] And the disadvantage of losing http redirects and thus losing account portability
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[tantek] Hey GWG, pfefferle, you may want to reply to this: https://twitter.com/chrismessina/status/1030956634028167168
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@chrismessina Is it time to resurrect the DiSo Project? https://www.slideshare.net/factoryjoe/the-diso-project Funny, we were here in 2006, @simonw: https://simonwillison.net/2007/Dec/6/diso/ /cc @willnorris @steveivy @singpolyma https://twitter.com/simonw/status/1030865818739863554 (twitter.com/_/status/1030956634028167168)
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[tantek] Like:
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[tantek] @chrismessina oops we shipped Diso and forgot to tell you about it. See https://IndieWeb.org/WordPress/Plugins and enjoy. Everything you need to post peer to peer social notes, comments, likes etc, all based on W3C standards like Webmention and microformats2
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[tantek] You (Wordpress plugin devs here) have basically fulfilled the goals of Diso and we just forgot to notify the original concept proposers
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GWG I'm forgetting, was [pfefferle] involved back then? I know he predates my involvement in writing this stuff.
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[tantek] Pfefferle has always been involved :D
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[tantek] Be sure to reply from your own website obv and posse thread the @-reply to prove your point :)
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[tantek] Chris deserves to hear it directly from the devs that have fulfilled the mission of Diso. You can tell him I sent you if you like (not needed)
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[pfefferle] Oh yea, I am still updating the DiSO plugins from time to time :)
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GWG I haven't used my site to reply to Twitter in ages.
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GWG We probably both should comment.
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[pfefferle] Sure, will comment tomorrow
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[tantek] You’ve built amazing things. Be proud of what you’ve built.
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[tantek] Yes pfefferle it’s a bit late for you over there 😂
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[tantek] gwg++
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Loqi gwg has 73 karma in this channel over the last year (148 in all channels)
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[tantek] Pfefferle++
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Loqi Pfefferle has 30 karma in this channel over the last year (37 in all channels)
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[pfefferle] Yes, time to go to bed now :)
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GWG It's only 8:41AM here.
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[pfefferle] 2:40 am
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GWG I need to make the process of doing that easier. Except for the fact that I don't participate in Twitter much
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aaronpk "wordpress recommends" what?
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aaronpk on https://indieweb.org/WordPress/Plugins
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GWG Someone didn't finish a thought.
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GWG I'm cutting it
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[tantek] GWG yes make replying to tweets as easy as possible and definitely make it clear that you’re open to UI suggestions / improvements, Chris will actively give you feedback. Point him at the right Github repos/issues and enjoy!
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aaronparecki.com edited /WordPress/Plugins (+153) "/* Other Indieweb Plugins */" (view diff)
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david.shanske.com edited /WordPress/Plugins (-9) (view diff)
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GWG I've never had the pleasure, but I'd love to get feedback from anyone."
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GWG [tantek]: Is he a WordPress user then? I've never looked.
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GWG Wonder if I should test replying to micro.blog. Might attract more interest
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aaronpk for sure! doesn't that work already?
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[tantek] GWG yes Chris is a long time WordPress user and Diso 1.0 was supposed to be a set of plugins for WordPress that enabled Distributed Social Web using WordPress!
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[tantek] Which is exactly what y’all have built!
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[tantek] Now we just gotta refine, iterate, improve UX etc. you’ve built all the necessary functionality
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GWG I keep trying
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[tantek] You keep improving it :)
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[chrisaldrich] What is DiSo?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "DiSo" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "DiSo is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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tantek__ what is DiSo Project
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "DiSo Project" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "DiSo Project is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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tantek__ DiSo is /DiSo_Project
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Loqi ok
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[chrisaldrich] Oops tantek__ looks like there's nothing at that page...
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[chrisaldrich] I could have sworn there was something at some point....
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tantek__ DiSo Project was a 2007-2010 era project to encourage "interoperable building blocks for the decentralized social web".
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Loqi ok
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tantek__ diso << https://diso-project.org/
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Loqi ok, I added "https://diso-project.org/" to a brand new "See Also" section of /DiSo_Project https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=51103&oldid=51102
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tantek__ [chrisaldrich]: there you go :)
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tantek__ probably worth adding to timeline
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tantek__ timeline << Diso
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Loqi ok, I added "Diso" to the "See Also" section of /timeline https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=51104&oldid=51040
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tantek__ wait I thought that worked
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[chrisaldrich] I remember digging into some of their history when steveivy popped into IW chat several months back...
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tantek__ oh I missed steveivy!
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[chrisaldrich] hrm... it looks like it was bridged to chat via Loqi. He implemented Webmentions on his site back in December: https://chat.indieweb.org/2017-12-22#t1513963686561700
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Loqi [steveivy] #webmentions are live on monkinetic: https://www.monkinetic.blog/diso-after-10-years.html #indieweb
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[chrisaldrich] DiSo_Project << https://www.monkinetic.blog/diso-after-10-years.html
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Loqi ok, I added "https://www.monkinetic.blog/diso-after-10-years.html" to the "See Also" section of /DiSo_Project https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=51107&oldid=51103
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tantek__ [chrisaldrich]++ oh yeah that's a great example!
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Loqi [chrisaldrich] has 13 karma in this channel over the last year (57 in all channels)
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tantek__ send that link back to @chrismessina 😂
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GWG [chrisaldrich]: Can you add your Micropub experience to the tracking issue for the release?
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[chrisaldrich] I was working on it when I got distracted for a minute.
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[chrisaldrich] need to try updating my production server with the new code to see how it runs there...
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[chrisaldrich] GWG, I hadn't tried teacup in while, but has it been working for a while with WP micropub or has it been fixed with this new (unreleased) update?
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[chrisaldrich] GWG: posted some Micropub thoughts to the tracking issue. More tomorrow as I have time on mini-family vacation....
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acegiak GWG you're not around are you?
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Zegnat acegiak, he was a bit ago in the -dev channel. But said he was going to get to something after work, so might have stepped out for now.
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acegiak kk
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acegiak just trying to work out what I should do to have another plugin posting data for post-kinds. I'm thinking I should probably just invoke the post-kinds plugin's function for setting the metadata
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Zegnat Afraid I am of little help there :(
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acegiak heck
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acegiak https://github.com/acegiak/WhisperFollow/commits/master
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acegiak yeah
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acegiak https://github.com/acegiak/quickposse/commits/master
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acegiak still got some rough edges to buff out, and the code is attrocious
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acegiak but I can now basically use twitter through WF
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GWG On a 10 minute break
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GWG Lunch in 2 hours. Day over in 7 hours
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GWG I would invoke the function
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GWG As I change regularly
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GWG However, I switched to storing as mf2 properties to match Micropub, and I don't want to ever change again
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GWG acegiak, I might look at your code for my POSSE project
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miklb what are the options for auth besides the wp indieauth plugin?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "options for auth besides the wp indieauth plugin" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "options for auth besides the wp indieauth plugin is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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miklb I still can't connect to Quill, with latest master of micropub and indieauth plugin so looking to try and debug this today
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aaronpk how far do you get before you hit an error?
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miklb https://github.com/snarfed/wordpress-micropub/issues/150#issuecomment-413642166
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Loqi [miklb] Indigenous `REST result: : {"code":"unauthorized","message":"missing access token","data":{"status":401}}` and Quill just did a weird redirect loop to this `https://miklb.com/?me=https%3A%2F%2Fmiklb.com%2F&redirect_uri=https%3A%2F%2Fquill.p3k.i...
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miklb and all I'm hearing from GWG is that it's probably a "server issue" so I want to fix my server issue.
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miklb or at least be able to use micropub again.
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sknebel with only the micropub plugin it should use indieauth.com if I remember right?
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miklb I honestly don't know. I have been attempting to test/use the WP indieauth I don't know the state of fallbacks and other options currently available
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miklb I don't believe I've changed any nginx settings since the last time micropub worked.
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aaronpk if you have the latest indieauth and micropub plugins then there is no option for indieauth.com which is good
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aaronpk "missing access token" likely means that the web server isn't allowing the Authorization header to reach wordpress
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Zegnat nginx shouldn’t be having any issues with auth headers
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Zegnat miklb, if you want to do a little server debugging, maybe upload https://gist.github.com/Zegnat/f4192c3cce05d847af3547eea80e383c and see if your server understands auth headers?
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miklb if I checkout micropub 1.4.3 it works. If I checkout master it doesn't
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miklb using the indieauth plugin at master
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miklb I just tested
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miklb so
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miklb tested quill I should clarify
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miklb and Indigenous authorizes, it's just not seeing my microsub endpoint
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miklb so definitely something in micropub master and my server ???
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miklb I just don't know where to begin to debug
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aaronpk just got my test install running again
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aaronpk don't know why my laptop's mysql decided to die
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aaronpk wow got some bad errors on the current micropub master
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aaronpk https://github.com/snarfed/wordpress-micropub/issues/150#issuecomment-414135231
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Loqi [aaronpk] I just tried installing indieauth and micropub on a new wordpress from master. I was able to get an access token, and I tried posting from the command line: ``` curl -H "Authorization: Bearer EmqwS2gHFxB9H28G7mEAnMcu1UXhCbUVEzDfw8KAiPhjKzBd9O6...
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miklb those errors aren't new.
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miklb https://github.com/snarfed/wordpress-micropub/issues/133
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Loqi [miklb] #133 Bug: Posting from Omnibear with IndieAuth fails.
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aaronpk we tracked that down to the browser cookie taking precedence
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aaronpk so there was no scope
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aaronpk it looks like the fix wasn't actually a fix though because now normal tokens don't work at all
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miklb ok
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miklb at least I don't feel like I'm losing my mind now
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miklb because I was on a cliff there for a bit
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aaronpk This means the tests aren't testing the right things, if it couldn't catch this problem
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miklb usertesting++
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Loqi usertesting has 1 karma over the last year
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GWG On lunch for a bit
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GWG What happened?
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aaronpk apparently micropub master branch is broken right now
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GWG I really need to figure out how I can reproduce these errors.
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aaronpk this one should be easy
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aaronpk new wordpress install, master branch of indieauth and micropub, no other plugins
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GWG Okay. Will look after work.
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aaronpk then send a post request to the micropub endpoint with no token or just "foo" as the token, and you'll see all the errors
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GWG But I do individual testing after each push.
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GWG Foo or no token is supposed to fail
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aaronpk it doesn't fail right now, it continues to try to check the scopes
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GWG aaronpk, IndieAuth plugin active? Then the broken code is in IndieAuth
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aaronpk yes
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GWG https://github.com/indieweb/wordpress-indieauth/blob/master/includes/class-indieauth-authorize.php
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GWG It isn't broken, it isn't merged yet. https://github.com/indieweb/wordpress-indieauth/pull/98
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Loqi [dshanske] #98 Improve Token Handling
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GWG I need a reviewer
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[pfefferle] Will have a Look asap
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aaronpk GWG: I just installed that branch, but same error
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GWG pfefferle, not trying to rush you. It just might explain the issue
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aaronpk sending a post with no token causes the micropub plugin to error while it's checking for scopes
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GWG I
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GWG I will have to see what error was introduced
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GWG I hate that I can't fix till 5am
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aaronpk sending a junk token now correctly fails
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aaronpk "Invalid access token"
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GWG But I am going to add the same debug log settings I added to Micropub to IndieAuth so I can get people better error messages
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aaronpk and using a real token succeeds
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GWG aaronpk, so just no token
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aaronpk yep so that's an improvement
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GWG That
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GWG makes sense
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aaronpk these are the kinds of things that are useful to write down in a test checklist
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GWG It hands back to the system
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GWG I was
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GWG going
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aaronpk i thought the goal of this change was to prevent wordpress from doing its own auth on the micropub endpoint
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GWG to write a script
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aaronpk since micropub should *only* be able to work with an indieauth access token
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GWG I can't stop it completely
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aaronpk there must be a way
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GWG I am trying to figure it out
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GWG Likely I will have to check for a request to a specific endpoint
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GWG Because if I disable it for all REST API endpoints...some allow unauthenticated queries
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GWG But IndieAuth doesn't know...
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GWG Wait...
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GWG I have an idea
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aaronpk i mean in the micropub plugin
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GWG Exactly
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GWG https://github.com/snarfed/wordpress-micropub/blob/master/includes/class-micropub-endpoint.php#L107
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GWG Right there
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GWG I can check for missing auth response
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aaronpk great
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GWG And fail there
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GWG Along with the enhanced debug for Indieauth
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GWG Basically, check for an empty auth response to determine cookie auth
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aaronparecki.com edited /Wordpress_IndieAuth_Plugin (+780) "start listing environments to test in" (view diff)
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GWG Just reminded myself to write a curl script for auth
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[pfefferle] There is a conflict, I can‘t merge
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GWG Oh?
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GWG Which?
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GWG Can you merge the others and I will fix the conflict and merge then with approval and address the other issue?
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GWG The developer one
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[pfefferle] sorry, was a problem of my github app
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[pfefferle] should I build a new version?
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[pfefferle] GWG?
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[pfefferle] the mf2 meta seems to be broken… no idea how to add them to the mf2-feed plugin… https://github.com/indieweb/wordpress-mf2-feed/pull/5
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Loqi [pfefferle] #5 Add mf2 meta
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aaronpk hrm
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aaronpk what happened to that "author" property?
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[pfefferle] I have no idea… it was added by the post-kinds plugin
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[pfefferle] ```
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[pfefferle] “author”: {
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[pfefferle] “url”: “https:\/\/notiz.blog\/author\/matthias-pfefferle\/“,
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[pfefferle] “name”: “Matthias Pfefferle”,
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[pfefferle] “photo”: “https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/75512bb584bbceae57dfc503692b16b2?s=40&d=https:\/\/notiz.blog\/wp-content\/plugins\/semantic-linkbacks\/img\/mm.jpg&r=g”
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[pfefferle] }
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aaronpk that looks like jf2
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[pfefferle] and this is neither jf2 nor mf2
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aaronpk kind of
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[pfefferle] but for jf2 the type is missing
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aaronpk right
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aaronpk i wonder if the mf2-feed plugin should syntax-check any data before it outputs it
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[pfefferle] puuuh
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aaronpk if arbitrary plugins can add stuff then i think it should
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[pfefferle] sure, but that makes it difficult… for example: do I have to remove the complete h-cite if the author is wrong or only the author???
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aaronpk how much did the plugin insert?
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[pfefferle] this complete example https://github.com/indieweb/wordpress-mf2-feed/pull/5#issuecomment-414144049
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aaronpk i would say treat the plugin's input as dirty data that needs to be validated just like any user input, and drop it if it's not valid
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[pfefferle] seems to be valid mf2 except the author
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aaronpk it's pretty easy to write a function that can take a JSON structure and say "this is valid MF2 json or not"
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[pfefferle] but other plugins might only add simple param pairs
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[pfefferle] ok, will start to file the bug for post-kinds
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[pfefferle] and then I have to write a mf2_to_jf2 function… currently I worked the other way around 😞
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sknebel is there a specific reason to have both right now?
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miklb seems to me like replacing one problem with another by switching to feed parsing/validation vs doing it in the markup, but I hope I'm wrong.
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aaronpk i still think avoiding the theme problem is going to be worth it
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miklb I think the other thing for me is the purist in me laments it not being part of the markup
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aaronpk for sure
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miklb old dog/new tricks
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aaronpk i'm just getting tired of how long this has just not worked trying to do it in the html
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miklb likewise. but I'm still not sure we have clearly identified where the blocker is. Except arbitrary markup injected by plugins
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miklb that's why I was trying to assess what the true current state of afairs where vs going off of 2-4 year old information.
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miklb s/where/were/
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[pfefferle] But you can never control the validity of mf* implementation of themes and its hard to describe this issue to users
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miklb but I'm 100% behind any solution that allows more people to use WP and IW tools
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miklb I'm more than a user and I haven't even seen explained. Like, if I activate all of the IW plugins and use the default 2016 theme, what is "broken"?
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miklb what common pitfall are themes falling into that "breaks" mf2? Could we set new best practices starting with WP core to solve the problem more organically?
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miklb that is what I was trying to answer. And it seems it still might need to be answered whether it is solved on theme side or not. Just might make it more accessible faster.
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[eddie] I think the issue is Wordpress theme producers don’t care about mf2 and ordinary Wordpress users that might want the functionality of mf2 don’t necessarily know how to make or edit themes
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[eddie] So then someone that knows both have to make MF2 specific themes and it’s not very user friendly to say “We have a select of X themes that support the IndieWebn”
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miklb if they don't care, then they haven't added anything, or they simply copied what was used by underscores/core themes.
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[eddie] They might make a cool looking theme
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[jgmac1106] And then you get the 18 million plugins styling whatever they want and often using mf2 properties when available
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miklb I don't believe theme designers are adding mf2 properties. There are core mf1 properties that themes have used for stlying hooks.
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[jgmac1106] [eddie] I had to solve this installing a page builder people want visual navigation
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[jgmac1106] Agree [miklb] every theme I try with mf2 plugin would break due to that
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sknebel [jgmac1106]: you tried that recently, can some of your documentation answer that? > Like, if I activate all of the IW plugins and use the default 2016 theme, what is "broken"?
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tantek__ ^^^ this
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[jgmac1106] @sknebel from the guy with everything installed correctly who still can't send webmentions natively?
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sknebel yes, since that's not related to the theme question
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[jgmac1106] That was more from when I was trying to find a theme I liked that also did IndieWeb well...had to resolve to one of the themes
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[jgmac1106] But I will start documenting, class is over, and grant due this week so I get to breathe soon
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[jgmac1106] Plus now I know what to look for in parsers and source code... I wouldn't have back in May
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[jgmac1106] "broken" is also relative as it it is driven to how users Want to use stuff... A note post may get a featured Image for example bc folks know it's only way the image gets picked up by Twitter
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[jgmac1106] .... And serious testing would require a respite from plugin updates except critical bugs... I would get far into testing... And then need to start over
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[jgmac1106] If the community got together and figured a roadmap... While the side file feels dirty I can spin up IndieWeb WP in minutes now
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miklb the featured image/note/photo post issue isn't a theme issue per se. Whether the html is parsed or the feed is parsed, that is an issue on the IW plugin side of the equation IMO
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miklb or just need for documentation
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aaronpk [pfefferle]: https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/995dde23cbd3de27e5d5ec0d68c18e29
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aaronpk that works with a dozen or so test cases i tried
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aaronpk mainly it's checking type and properties for syntax
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[pfefferle] aaronpk awesome, will check it with the data I have!
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[pfefferle] aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 11 karma in this channel over the last year (313 in all channels)
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[jgmac1106] Yeah was just trying to illustrate "broken" isn't a great metric.... But +1 to documentation
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[pfefferle] miklb if there is a way to “fix” the mf1/mf2 issue, then I would also prefer that, but I think the mf2-feed thing is a nice way to have a solution that works today
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[jgmac1106] Works today++
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[pfefferle] I think, except of the hfeed issue, the twenty* themes are working fine and even the hfeed issue is handleable
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[pfefferle] But there are a lot of other themes that does not care about microformats
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[pfefferle] if you select the microformats filter in the theme area, you get only 375 of 3.443 themes
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[pfefferle] so even if we get the “broken” themes fixed, the themes that support microformats are 10% of all themes
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[pfefferle] and, as we already discussed, the core integration only adds some tags to the `post_class` everything else has to be done by the theme developer, in plain HTML
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miklb what I'm hearing is that there isn't a line of code anywhere we can point to and say "this keeps the IW plugins from adding the needed markup" and so it's too tough of a problem to solve in the markup.
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miklb I'm not even sure what work/broke means. I realize valid mf2 != user experience/expecation but at least a rock solid foundation can be built on.
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[pfefferle] yes, but what about the other 90%?
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miklb what other 90%? If a theme isn't inserting anything, what is preventing the IW plugins from adding what is needed?
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aaronpk I commonly see people complaining that bridgy publish doesn't do the right thing, which is caused by bad mf2
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[pfefferle] we tried it with the mf2 plugin, and it haven’t work
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[pfefferle] ed
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aaronpk I most often encounter bad/broken mf2 because I follow people in my reader and get terrible results
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[pfefferle] it is nearly impossible to correct the markup with or through a plugin
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miklb what are you trying to correct? That's the question.
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miklb what is broken in a theme that doesn't add any of it's own mf2?
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aaronpk I even saw some html tags inside an author name at one point
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aaronpk Because the theme escaped (correctly) the name, but a plugin was trying to add the author microformat
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miklb again, broken being invalid mf2 in this scenario
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[pfefferle] 90% of all themes in the directory doesn’t care about microformats at all, if it is mf1 or mf2
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[pfefferle] what about these themes?
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[pfefferle] they won’t work at all
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aaronpk I think miklb is asking why can't the mf2 plugin add microformats to those themes
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miklb yes. What is preventing that plugin from working. I mean, my theme is basically that plugin inside my theme.
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[pfefferle] because the themes are escaping the output and thats why people having stuff like this https://github.com/indieweb/wordpress-uf2/issues/31
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Loqi [devilgate] #31 Plugin causes spurious HTML to be visible
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GWG Please do if you can, pfefferle
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[pfefferle] that is why the whole uf2 plugin stuff is making more problems, than it tries to solve
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[pfefferle] GWG done
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GWG pfefferle, I will fix any Post Kinds or Micropub mf2 storage issues as we have an agreed upon storage method.
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miklb could that not be inserted with javascript in that scenario?
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GWG I have an idea about the mf2 vs jf2 issue. Post Meta filter
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GWG On a 10, by the way
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aaronpk insert what in javascript?
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[pfefferle] java script will not interpreted by the parser
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miklb oh. insert a class after the escaping of the html.
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miklb I saw the option to disable was added, but was just thinking of a work around.
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[pfefferle] there is no way to add mf2 based on the html
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miklb but that's a tangible issue I can wrap my head around
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[pfefferle] because in the worst way, there are no semantics, so how to know what div is the entry and what h* is the title
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sknebel another example that came up last time is that e.g. comment authors are marked up with "u-url"
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sknebel and h-cards are added in the comment sections around that
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sknebel so you have nice feeds for comments
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sknebel but the same formatting hook is used in the "recent comments" widget
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sknebel so that suddenly spews properties in the main page
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miklb that's another tangible issue. Where does that `u-url` come from, core mf1?
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[pfefferle] no
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sknebel no, that's something the mf2-plugin did
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[pfefferle] core does not add u-*
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[pfefferle] that is mf2
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sknebel but again shows that the hooks it uses are limited
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miklb wait, I'm confused, the plugin inserted something but it's the theme's problem?
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aaronpk haha that sounds like a great summary of this situation
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[pfefferle] no, it adds something, but everywhere the hook is used
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sknebel no, that was also an answer to why the "add mf2 via plugin" doesn't work
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miklb ok, so we need more hooks?
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[pfefferle] no, because we can’t force developers to use them
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miklb or way to filter where the hook is used? I'm not trying to be pendantic, I'm truly confused.
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[pfefferle] there is no way to such a thing using hooks
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miklb you keep jumping from other developers or themes and the mf2 plugin and I don't know which you are refering to
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miklb how are you doing mf2 in your themes? What is different from the mf2 plugin?
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[pfefferle] I add them as HTML
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[pfefferle] plain HTML
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GWG We can try to use built in hooks to manipulate what the theme does, but the theme developer can mess that up unintentionally
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[pfefferle] there are a few hooks I add classes to, but the main implementation is handwork
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GWG I do a mix of filters and plain HTML in my themes
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GWG Same here
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miklb [pfefferle]: you have a lot of functions filtering classes, it's not all handwritten html in the theme file
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miklb but OK. I give up. Again. You two control the keys to the WP IW world, I'm just an observer at this point.
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GWG miklb, I am confused
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GWG I may not be explaining it well
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[pfefferle] one hook for the post
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GWG Both pfefferle and I use a combination of hooks and hand coding
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GWG I outline mine in a blog post
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[pfefferle] that adds h-entry… p-title, e-content, … all in the html
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[pfefferle] all author and date markup is by hand
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GWG https://david.shanske.com/2016/06/22/converting-wordpress-themes-microformats-2-part-1/
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Loqi [David Shanske] Converting WordPress Themes for Microformats 2 – Part 1
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miklb GWG that post is 2 years old. Is it all still relevant today?
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[pfefferle] yes
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[pfefferle] sadly
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[pfefferle] and even the post_class hook I use in my theme, is not mandatory
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[pfefferle] a theme developer does not have to use it
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miklb that's a silly argument. There are million things a theme author isn't required to use, but that doesn't mean that a majority of the modern themes aren't using post_class in 2018
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miklb or if we couldn't identify any popular ones and nudge them to add it.
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[pfefferle] that was not my point
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[pfefferle] my point is… it is not working in the current state and even if we define a solution and convince the wordpress folk to add some more hooks, if lasts years, to get a broad audience to implement them…
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miklb I guess I'm just reaching a point that I really don't want to expend any energy, whether writing code or digging a ditch, if I'm not 100% sure about it.
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miklb OK. I hear you [pfefferle]
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[pfefferle] I am 100% sure that it does not work with what we have… I started the plugin in 2013 https://github.com/indieweb/wordpress-uf2/commit/cda00b4b63f8dd46d28f1e07e10dadc91ecd5ddb and I had no chance to get it to work in 5 years
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miklb the entire indieweb ecosystem has changed in 5 years. I do not doubt your committment, nor do I not respect your work to this point. I apologize if that doesn't come across.
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[pfefferle] no, I understand your point!
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[pfefferle] I am only searching for a solution, that works now… nothing more… I also prefer the clean microformats2 way, but I do not want to wait until this is a thing…
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[pfefferle] otherwise I wouldn’t have built ZenPress and SemPress 😉
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miklb just like there are a million weather apps for phones, there will always be room for customized themes with more context. But it would be super sweet to be able to give a basic experience to everyone.
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[pfefferle] yes, and the until that time, we have the mf2-feed plugin 😉
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miklb without defining the problem and a solution, there will never "that time"
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miklb but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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[pfefferle] yes, currently I am really pesimistic in that way 😞
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miklb well, if you ever feel like documenting what a dream pull request to core would be regarding mf2, I'd love to read it
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miklb not the actual PR, just outlining what you'd like to see
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[pfefferle] I thought you will be the one preparing the PR!?!
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miklb I would if I knew what we needed. That's what this has all been about.
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miklb all started with me asking if the original PR that GWG sent was still valid in the context of current state of affairs in parsers, vs the 2-4 years ago when it was originally opened/closed
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miklb and from there, I seemed to have derailed things.
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miklb because if in this climate of delete twitter quit FB we can't get WordPress to help us, then I'm not sure I want to be a part of the community anymore.
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miklb but that is just me
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miklb I need to put these thoughts into a blog post. sorry
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miklb I mean, it's not like we're aking them to rewrite teh entire admin in React…
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[pfefferle] [miklb] I just search for the video where Matt Mullenweg was asked by [cleverdevil] about the IndieWeb and how WordPress can support it…
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miklb we aren't talking about merging all of the IW plugins into core, we are basically asking to "break" some mf1 styling hooks in old themes and a few more filters/hooks. I don't know that conversation is exactly equivilent.
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miklb but I can't publicly advocate for something I don't know the answer to. It's a conudrum.
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[pfefferle] but the case is, that the woer
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[pfefferle] oops
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[pfefferle] wordpress communit
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[jgmac1106] yes this! "because if in this climate of delete twitter quit FB we can't get WordPress to help us, then I'm not sure I want to be a part of the community anymore."
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[pfefferle] but I think Matts answer reflects the position of the community really good: https://youtu.be/P2qbSMdCvis?t=2754
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[pfefferle] they have a lot of things to cleanup and gutenberg is still not released, so I think it’s hard to get focus on this atm.
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[jgmac1106] the under current of that to me is we don't care if webmentions is a web standard..there are like seven of you doing this...a standard used by no one isn't a standard at all
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[jgmac1106] if mf2 stream builds the groundswell to where "wow look at so much of our install base trying to get webmentions to work we should make mf2 core" then I am okay with "works today"
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aaronpk [pfefferle]: i just made https://pin13.net/mf2/#json which is an online version of that validation function
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aaronpk also improved the function a little bit
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aaronpk https://github.com/microformats/microformats-parser-website-php/blob/master/json-validator.php
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miklb [jgmac1106]: the thing is, we aren't trying to introduce a new standard, just updated a standard that is already in core. mf1 -> mf2, or just remove outdated mf1, which I've seen discussed as one option.
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miklb again, I'm in no way thinking about merging or adding webmentions or micropub or indieauth into core. Just square away microformats.
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miklb honestly not sure how it would be that big a deal if the argument is, "This is how we can grow the user base using plugins and it's a blocker"
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miklb if I knew what that blocker was that is.
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miklb WordPress was orginally about making it easier to put words and pictures on the Internet. Gutenberg and 5.0 is about ushering in a new interface to do that. We should at least fight to make the full IndieWeb experience a little easier to be a part of that change.
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miklb I would like to make that fight, if anyone can help.
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GWG I am now off work
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GWG Let the coding begin
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[pfefferle] miklb I think we are all willing to help
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GWG I lack charisma for encouraging things
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miklb I don't know about being charismatic, but I believe we have sound, reasoned arguments. I believe reasonable people will weigh them in the current environment. Then we will either get a yes or no. But only if we ask and provide the PR.
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miklb I'm going to switch my live theme to a core theme and start looking for what doesn't work as it does with my current custom theme.
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miklb well, add the uf2 plugin.
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[stefp] GWG I got my Indieauth problem fixed
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GWG [stefp]: How?
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[stefp] I turned off modsecurity temporarily to see if it made any difference and the plugin worked
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[stefp] so got in touch with the tech people at my host
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[stefp] the guy found a rule that was causing the block and he whitelisted it
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aaronpk pleeease document that o
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[stefp] how would you like me to do that?
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[stefp] I’ll do something.
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GWG Blog post?
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[stefp] I don’t know exactly what the rule was so it wont be very detailed
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GWG It still is a place to start
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[stefp] I’ll do that
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aaronpk how about either https://indieweb.org/Wordpress_IndieAuth_Plugin or https://indieweb.org/Micropub_for_WordPress in a troubleshooting section
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aaronpk blog post is fine too
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aaronpk a pointer to mod_security is a good start. it would be great if you can ask them what rule that is too
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[stefp] I’ll ask about the rule and get this done tomorrow. Getting late here.
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bradenslen Are there any known issues for switching WP themes from Sempress to Independent Publisher?
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miklb bradenslen: I suspect so. I looked at Independent Publisher last night and there are numerous open issues and no commits that I saw in last 10 months. But the degree of issues I couldn't speak to.
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miklb but that can be said switching between any two themes on WordPress, Indieweb or not.
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miklb anyone know if there was ever any discussion with core about extending post formats? I know it has always been considered a half baked feature, but wonder if adopting it and improving in core would be well received.
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miklb or if Gutenberg will make them obsolete
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