#wordpress 2018-11-06

2018-11-06 UTC
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[jgmac1106] [Khurt] if you were still relying on the mf2 stream, I did recommend it to you before it was useable. It just worked on your site.
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[Khurt] If the problem is mf2 then an easy fix would be to … stop doing webmentions?
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[Khurt] Deleting my test post (and the evidence of the problem). Gotta clean up the blog.
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[Khurt] If there is no reliable way to get microformats 2 markup in themes, am I stuck making a choice between doing IndieWeb in WordPress with IndieWeb theme or no IndieWeb?
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[Khurt] I think I’m too frustrated. Disabling Webmention plugins and mf2 and all the other IndieWeb stuff. I’m spending too much time troubleshooting with low ROI.
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[Khurt] I’ll keep an eye on developments and perhaps try this again in the future.
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[jgmac1106] [Khurt] understood, I myself am going with just a few static pages and going back to Known for my social stream...I have never been able to send a webmention
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[jgmac1106] For the longest time (I guess still) had just a WordPress site and used Known so the IndieWeb stuff would just work
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[asuh] Understanding WordPress Indieweb UX has been an interesting experiment where I felt similarly. I've been lucky that in customizing my own theme from scratch I've incrementally gotten the various plugins to work as I expect. I don't think I've tried sending a Webmention but I've definitely received them
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[asuh] [Khurt] and [jgmac1106] which themes are each of you using where these problems keep happening?
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[Khurt] [asuh] from my perspective, any theme that isnt’ IndieWeb Twenty Sixteen.
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[asuh] That makes sense. UX for non-indieweb themes is tough to get right b/c there are a lot of required nuances to modify the themes.
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[asuh] Is there a particular theme you tried more than the rest to get working?
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[Khurt] All of the theme I tried do not support microformats. I tried using mf2 plugins to fix that but … doesn’t work.
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[asuh] Sure, I hear you. Can you name one theme which you'd prefer to use next with Indieweb? I'm curious myself to see what happens
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[Khurt] I use Organic Themes.
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[Khurt] Currently using the Organic Photographers Theme: https://organicthemes.com/demo/?demo=photographer-theme
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[Khurt] [jgmac1106] I had Webmentions working very well initially when I was using the IndieWeb Twenty Sixteen theme. Tried Jekyll but it’s not suitable for me. Too much friction to posting.
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[asuh] [Khurt] does your theme have the mf2 plugin activated?
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[pfefferle] [Khurt] but I can see a valid entry on Webmention.rocks from one of your sites!?!
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[pfefferle] [Khurt] most of the webmention tests has nothing to do with mf2, so the theme shouldn‘t make a difference
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GWG Good morning, pfefferle
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[pfefferle] good morning
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Loqi greetings human
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[pfefferle] [Khurt] the plugin is Build without any mf2 requirements and should work fine with every page... the only difference is, that the comments will look like the old trackbacks/pingbacks...
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[pfefferle] [Khurt] let me know if I can help you with debugging the webmention plugin
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[pfefferle] The webmention plugin is fully functional without mf2 and without the semantic linkbacks plugin
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GWG Yes it is
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[pfefferle] Perhaps I should add this to the faq of the plugin
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GWG Not a bad idea
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GWG Do people read it?
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[pfefferle] No idea
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[pfefferle] Perhaps in the help of the plugin?
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GWG Also people don't always read. Maybe settings page
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[pfefferle] Do you guys read the plugin help on the top Right of the Settings Page?
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[asuh] I can answer only for myself. I have never used or paid attention to the help button on the top right
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[asuh] I didn’t realize until this very moment that it’s customizable to view
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[pfefferle] Hmmm
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[asuh] That’s neat. I’ve been around WordPress >decade and this is the first time I’ve really used it
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[asuh] That screencast video is a great idea
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[pfefferle] ☺
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[pfefferle] Any idea how to promote this?
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[asuh] I imagine it’s easy to bind to the same event opening the help area, right? My first impression of this Help button is that it’s kind of masked by its small size and being in the top-right profile settings menu.
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[asuh] I guess if there was an appropriate place on the Webmentions settings page to bind to that event, I’d probably have that anchored within the content as well somewhere
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GWG That was what I was suggesting... link to it
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[pfefferle] Ok, will have a look how to trigger the „open help“ with a button
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GWG When I get a chance, I have to look at some of the bugs on the list, like the Indieauth PR you reviewed
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[pfefferle] It is only a „question“ you got my +1
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GWG Always more to do
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GWG pfefferle, the icons in Indieweb are due for a refresh and I may implement the new load system I showed you
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[pfefferle] Ok, I am curious
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[pfefferle] Only for the icons or will you try to bundle the plugins?
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GWG Well, one thing at a time. It will make it easier for you to disable the part you don't want
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AkyRhO Good morning Indieweb
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GWG I had a lot of trouble trying to bundle Parse This, which is a library and a plugin.
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GWG Morning
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[pfefferle] We also discussed that 😉
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GWG Yes, but small steps
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GWG At TXL
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[pfefferle] txl?
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GWG Tegel Airport. Leaving the country
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GWG Explaining my slow responses
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GWG But as for bundling, not sure what to do
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[pfefferle] are there no UI/UX people interested in IndieWebPress?
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GWG I wish
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[jgmac1106] Finding a UX person that also knows WP been tough.
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[jgmac1106] Happy to help. [chrisaldrich] and I gonna tackle the Getting Started page, but the FAQ and read more on official WP.org pages more important
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[jgmac1106] I made how to tutorial screencasts for both theme varities can update those as well. Modular one for every plugin
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[Khurt] [pfefferle] the content of the webmention does not have it across.
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[Khurt] [pfefferle] I would appreciate help in testing.
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[Khurt] [pfefferle] I usually read the plugin FAQ.
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[pfefferle] [Khurt] so the webmention works in general, but the content looks like „your post was mentioned on example.com“?
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[Khurt] [pfefferle] yes. Example here: Webmention sent from https://islandinthenet.com/reply/ to https://monkeyhill.us/securing-wordpress-web-site/. And some website on WordPress.com don’t even get the trackback or pingback.
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[pfefferle] Ok, then it IS a microformats problem...
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[pfefferle] But pin13 says your post is ok http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fislandinthenet.com%2Freply%2F
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[pfefferle] Hmmm
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sknebel doesn't have any content
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sknebel also, looking at the HTML pin13 is actually wrong
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[Khurt] [pfefferle], [sknebel] yes. No content.
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[Khurt] Heading off for the long commute. Be back around 8:30
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GWG I started reading what it would take to get a plugin Gutenberg compatible with the list amount of effort
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[pfefferle] [sknebel] that doesn‘t matter, as far as I know it should take the p-name as fallback
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sknebel [pfefferle]: there is no p-name
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GWG pfefferle, I was thinking about your statement re Semantic Linkbacks
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GWG Wondering if I should try a proof of concept replacement
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[pfefferle] [sknebel] ah, I see... it was the p-name of the h-cite that confused me
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[pfefferle] What about a brainstorming wiki page
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[pfefferle] cc GWG
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GWG pfefferle, what do we call it?
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GWG I was going to start with a page
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[jgmac1106] Add a brainstorm section at bottom of respective plugin page rather than new page please
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GWG Re
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GWG Replacement brainstorming
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GWG jgmac1
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[jgmac1106] That would work. I would add WordPress in title for discovery
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GWG jgmac1106, I did get new archives working before bed
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GWG /kind/photo
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GWG Can now be /kind/photo/2017 or /kind/photo/tag
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GWG You a
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GWG You asked for photo improvements
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[jgmac1106] Wow!!! awesome. Check that out [Khurt] getting closer on galleries... Have yearly archive views of photos
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GWG That works for any kind
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GWG Yearly, tag, etc
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GWG Next I need to see supporting a custom archive for photos, but this is just a permalink rewrite
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GWG So I could do collections
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GWG I have a few other ideas to explore
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GWG Like an Endpoint for gallery view
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GWG Basically, url/gallery would show a gallery view of all attached photos
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GWG I wish I were better at the aesthetics, but I do want to put in the infrastructure
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[Khurt] @GWG [jgmac1106] galleries yay!
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Loqi 😃
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GWG I hope I can pull off a basic implementation and get help enhancing it
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[jgmac1106] Yeah I will pull out a call for Design/Theme help if you can give a squishy time frame
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GWG Squishy
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[jgmac1106] As in date range with no hard deadlines
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GWG I don't do hard deadlines
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GWG https://indieweb.org/Semantic_Linkbacks#Replacement_Brainstorming
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[pfefferle] nice
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GWG Added more
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GWG What thoughts did you have?
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GWG jackjamieson: Did you check out the new code?
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jackjamieson GWG: Didn't have a chance yet, but from here it's an all indieweb afternoon so I'm going to look at it now
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GWG I built basic RSS and JSONFeed feed reading into Parse This, along with feed discovery.
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GWG Needs more work
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GWG It was my Hack Day project.
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jackjamieson Awesome - I'm reading through it now. Looks like I'll be able to dramatically reduce my code, but needs a bit of restructure to do so
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GWG jackjamieson: That was the goal. Less duplication
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GWG The h-feed code still needs work though.
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GWG It doesn't detect multiple h-entries on page without an actual h-feed as a feed.
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GWG It doesn't flag the wordpress scenario of hfeed/hentry on singular pages
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GWG It doesn't do h-card with nested h-feed or nested h-entries
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GWG Which is what tantek does, for example
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GWG It doesn't yet do RSS enclosures or JSONFeed attachments so no podcast support.
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jackjamieson I solved part of that problem in Yarns_Microsub_Parser::locate_hfeed
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GWG jackjamieson: I was looking at it
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jackjamieson But it always felt a bit haphazard and I'm sure it missed some feeds
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GWG I was focused on RSS/JSONFeed and discovery first
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jackjamieson i found tantek's site to be good for testing because of its structure - once I could parse that I could cover a lot of other sites
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jackjamieson Absolutely, I'm impressed you got so much done so quickly
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GWG jackjamieson: The hardest part was figuring out SImplePie and RSS. JSONFeed was easy
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jackjamieson Ah, I've done some RSS projects in the past, so could remember a bit from those. But I haven't really looked at JSONFeed much at all
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GWG JSONFeed is so new, there are no approved extensions to factor in
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GWG I maintain the WordPress JSONFeed plugin for Manton Reece, who didn't have time for it
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GWG But, RSS has all these extensions I'd like to account for.
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GWG I got category tags and geo coordinates, for example.
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jackjamieson I'm going to switch yarns to use your RSS parser and see how it works
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GWG I think I can get it much more improved
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GWG But it does, so far, look for more data than the one you were using.
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jackjamieson Yep, mine was pretty basic so this is a good step forward
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GWG I am eager to have the product and want to do my part
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jackjamieson Well, it's a big help for me! My development has been slow the past month but can pick up again so it should be relatively swift from here
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GWG I hope to help more
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[kevinmarks] what is the format you're parsing feeds into? mf2 json?
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GWG Yes
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GWG Actually jf2
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GWG Why not?
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[kevinmarks] interesting - unmung turns feeds into mf2 html; I hadn't thought of going to jf2
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[kevinmarks] you could do that with 3 passes through unmung which is a bit weird
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GWG I should look at the unmung code
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Loqi totally
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[kevinmarks] well, unmung uses the feedparser library which parses all kinds of weird feeds
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[kevinmarks] then it maps that into an html template
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GWG I am using SimplePie, which is built into WP
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[kevinmarks] there we go, 3 passes through unmung: http://www.unmung.com/mf2tojs2?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unmung.com%2Fmf2%3Furl%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.unmung.com%252Ffeed%253Ffeed%253Dhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Ftechcrunch.com%25252Ffeed%26html%3D%26pretty%3Don&pretty=on
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[kevinmarks] feed to mf2 html to mf2 json to jf2
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[kevinmarks] escape all the things
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Loqi http://meme.loqi.me/m/4xMybBd.jpg
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[Khurt] Ok. [pfefferle] the problem was I was using MF2 Feed. Microformats 2 plugin sends the right Webmention details.
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GWG [Khurt]: MF2-Feed needs to support additional properties.
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GWG jackjamieson: I think I can add photos, audio, and video in the next version
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jackjamieson Cool — I figure RSS is always going to lack some of the features of h-feed, but it'd be nice to capture as much as possible
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jackjamieson Just testing the new parser now — some hiccups but I think just on my end. I'll let you know if I have any thoughts, but it seems good
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GWG My goal is to extract as much as I can from RSS, OGP, etc
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GWG You can always, if need be, parse the permalink for URLs to get more data
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GWG What is your next piece?
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jackjamieson Right now just thinking through how to handle post type filtering for rss feeds. It's possible to include or exclude specific post types from a channel, but since there is no post type detection in rss I think I'll just include all rss posts regardless of type
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GWG You want to try for it?
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jackjamieson PTD in rss?
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GWG I think aaronpk does it
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jackjamieson Hmmm, I'll check out what xray does then
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jackjamieson That'd be a nice feature to have
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GWG I just checked
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GWG I can add it
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GWG It runs the output through ptd
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GWG I have that functions
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GWG And I generate a richer jf2 object than xray
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jackjamieson Hmm, that could be pretty great
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GWG Next version
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jackjamieson Am I correct to presume that some post types (likes, replies) might be harder to detect in rss than in h-feed?
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GWG Impossible
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GWG Without retrieving the url
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jackjamieson Right, that's what I was thinking, but even a simplified post-type could be useful.
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jackjamieson For my use case, my goal would be to filter out checkins and likes from most channels, but I can see that some might want to create photo only channels
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jackjamieson In the meantime, I'm just making it so that any posts without a detected type will be categorized as 'articles', which is not great but is a reasonable compromise for now
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jackjamieson Otherwise, the RSS parsing seems to work great
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jackjamieson Got to run for a quick meeting, but I should be back online later. Otherwise, my next steps mainly be delegating parsing over to parse-this, but I'll leave the feed detection on Yarns' side for the moment
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GWG jackjamieson, if a photo post is defined as something with a photo and no title, it would detect it
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jackjamieson GWG: Makes sense to me. I presume PTD in RSS feeds would err toward categorizing posts as articles and notes, but maybe be able to catch some others
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GWG Exactly
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jackjamieson I haven't really thought through it through in much detail, but just looking at the PTD algorithm now. Seems like it'd be a nice feature even if it's limited
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GWG Still better for display purposes
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jackjamieson Yeah, I think so too
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GWG If I could figure out how to get full text for all RSS feeds I would. That's a lot more complicated and would involve multiple fetches
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GWG And some creative xpath work
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jackjamieson I've been trying to minimize fetches for the sake of speed, but there's a case to be made for either approach
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GWG Well, that is what cron is for
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GWG I have a crazy rest API idea for that
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jackjamieson The main issue for me was when previewing feeds (i.e. in the flow of search for feeds -> preview feed -> follow feed)
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GWG How is my code for that?
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GWG I think I optimized it well, but could do better
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jackjamieson Hmmm, my real world use-case for that is in Together, which I'm having trouble logging into right now. (Works on my real website, but not on my staging site so might be an issue of plugin versions). I'll test that and figure out what's up
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jackjamieson Accessing the Yarns endpoint directly, it seems reasonably snappy
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jackjamieson I'll add some more formal speed tests to my task list if I find any problems
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jackjamieson When actually polling for posts in the background, speed isn't such a big issue as long as the server isn't being bogged down
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GWG I intend to have an alternative polling method if I can help. For advanced users
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GWG Also, I need to study your polling code
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jackjamieson I think I have some half-finished ideas in there (some if branches that don't currently do anything), so it's a bit confusing :/
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GWG You shouldn't poll all channels at once
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jackjamieson Yeah, I think so too. Could do a channel at a time, or find another way to break things up into smaller jobs.
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GWG Polling frequencies based on each channels update frequency
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GWG And smaller jobs too
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jackjamieson How about per site instead of per channel?
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GWG Isn't a channel a site?
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jackjamieson A channel is a collection of feeds. Each feed from a different site
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GWG How about per feed then?
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jackjamieson e.g. I have channels for indieweb feeds, sports, news
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jackjamieson Exactly
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jackjamieson Thinking this through: Each feed could have two fields 1) '_last_updated' and 2) '_update_interval'
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GWG Same thought
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GWG Use one to calculate the other
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jackjamieson I was thinking this in two parts. 1) a cron runs every five minutes or so which will poll the feed if the time since its last update is greater than the update interval
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jackjamieson Upon each update, calculate a time between posts for some arbitrary period of time (maybe the past day, maybe the past week?) and use that to set the update interval
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GWG And figure out when to downgrade the interval
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jackjamieson Every time a site is polled and there is no update the interval gets downgraded?
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GWG Something like that, yeah
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jackjamieson I'll add this discussion to an issue
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[kevinmarks] PTD in rss/atom could look for as1 markup