#indiewebcamp 2014-05-12

2014-05-12 UTC
caseorganic, jedahan, iangreenleaf, lukebrooker, KartikPrabhu, mlinksva, gRegor`, danfowle1, jancborchardt__, kylewm and rhiaro joined the channel
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aaronpk current /b 21
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aaronpk what
fmarier, ottery, snarfed, Garbee, caseorganic, jedahan, b0bg0d____, warden_, jacus_, hugoroyd_, michel_v_, WHARGARBL, wagle, etymancer and danfowler joined the channel
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@djp1974 @MLAconvention Thnx! I guess it also depends on whether the URL is a #permalink - good case 4 #indieweb implementations in academia? (twitter.com/_/status/465671429568999425)
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@djp1974 RT @CCsolidarity: Can we slow down enough to reclaim the present? https://www.youtube.com/ #coherence #time #mindfulness #indieweb #trews #fb (twitter.com/_/status/465673105373798401)
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snarfed kylewm: mf2util looks awesome! excited to try it out
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@generic_brian (that's me being superman or whatevz ^) and #indieweb n stuff! ok... regular \o/ (https://www.atoddswithclarity.com/first-public-comment-o,2/) (twitter.com/_/status/465675937112023041)
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snarfed extra props for unit tests
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snarfed unittests++
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Loqi unittests has 5 karma
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aaronpk hmm may have found an issue with fragmention
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aaronpk if the page has a TOC with links to #ids, then the fragmention code takes over and jumps to the TOC entry rather than the actual #id
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aaronpk probably just a bug in the browser plugin
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aaronpk ids should take priority
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www.atoddswithclarity.com created /User:Www.atoddswithclarity.com (+25) "Created page with "playground for brainTrain"" (view diff)
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www.atoddswithclarity.com edited /User:Www.atoddswithclarity.com (+35) "adding url" (view diff)
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www.atoddswithclarity.com edited /IRC_People (+74) "adding myself to the list -brainTrain" (view diff)
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brainTrain if manual posts count, I think I'm official finally :p
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snarfed congrats brainTrain!
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snarfed manual definitely counts, i posse manually too
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brainTrain heh sweet, thanks
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aaronpk !tell tantek in the three pages I've been using to test creating an automatic summary from the dfn, I have encountered different edge cases which cause it to fail. I believe we will need to explicitly mark up the summary sentence.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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aaronpk i'm not really in the mood for writing an english grammar parser
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aaronpk it's close though
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aaronpk so close
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aaronpk maybe good enough
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aaronparecki.com edited /p3k (+11) "add dfn tag" (view diff)
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aaronpk wow another edge case
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GWG aaronpk: A lot of those.
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aaronparecki.com edited /p3k (+32) "add explicit p-summary markup" (view diff)
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aaronpk ok this is magic
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aaronpk what is a webmention?
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Loqi Webmention is a simple way to notify any URL when you link to it on your site http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention
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aaronpk we'll see what happens :)
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aaronparecki.com created /posse (+18) "redirect" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /checkin (+9) "dfn, verb" (view diff)
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aaronpk !tell tantek nevermind
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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aaronpk relevant: http://xkcd.com/1367/
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aaronparecki.com edited /app (+36) "add xkcd http://xkcd.com/1367/" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /User:Aaronparecki.com (+88) "update bio" (view diff)
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@indieboxproject First Indie Box campaign update: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/indie-box-let-s-bring-our-data-home/#activity #indiebox #indieweb #excitementbuilds:-) (twitter.com/_/status/465718064500453377)
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aaronparecki.com edited /User:Tantek.com (+110) "add bio" (view diff)
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aaronpk what is an h-entry?
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Loqi h-entry is the microformats2 vocabulary for marking up blog posts on web sites http://indiewebcamp.com/h-entry
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KartikPrabhu what is this witchcraft!?
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aaronpk i know, right?
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aaronpk it's microformats!
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aaronpk this should prove amusing during normal converations
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aaronpk can't wait
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KartikPrabhu so what did you mark it up with?
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KartikPrabhu p-defn?
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KartikPrabhu aaha! just p-summary! pretty awesome!!
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aaronpk the p-summary is added there by a plugin that looks for a sentence containing <dfn>
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KartikPrabhu neat!
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aaronpk turns out sentence boundaries are hard to find :)
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KartikPrabhu no kidding...
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aaronpk tantek waved his hands and said "easier to pull out dfn until period" :-)
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-05-08#t1399585116
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aaronpk it wasn't easy, but it's done
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aaronpk and is only broken in a few cases
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aaronparecki.com edited /Twitter (+19) "add dfn tag" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /this-week-in-the-indieweb (+442) "replace with notes for how to subscribe" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/05/11/2/indieweb linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/this-week-in-the-indieweb (webmention)
cweiske, Jihaisse, LauraJ, tobiastom, gregone, jsilvestre, eschnou, npdoty, krendil, erikmaarten, jonnybarnes, tpinto, squeakytoy, chrisroos and trodrigues joined the channel
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chrisroos Morning all.
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chrisroos I'm wondering whether there'd be any interest in a followup to the previous London HWC. I had been meaning to suggest it again before now but work took over unfortunately.
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chrisroos I'd be happy to offer our office again for the 21st May meetup.
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@ShaneHudson @jongold Nice! It would be even cooler if you could RSVP from your own blog :P http://indiewebcamp.com/event (twitter.com/_/status/465791504884457472)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/ShaneHudson/465791504884457472/14199907 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/event (webmention)
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barnabywalters what is a Taproot?
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/Taproot
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cweiske what is a loqi?
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cweiske what is a Loqi?
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barnabywalters ha ha I don’t think he has a wiki page
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cweiske he? not she?
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barnabywalters pretty sure Loqi is a he
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barnabywalters ask it :)
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cweiske it ignores direct messages
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cweiske Loqi, are you male?
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Taproot (-22) "Removed explicit h-entry markup so that Loqi can summarize better" (view diff)
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barnabywalters what is Taproot?
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Loqi Taproot is Barnaby Walters’ publishing software, written in PHP 5.4 and driving most of waterpigs.co.uk. It is not currently released to the public http://indiewebcamp.com/Taproot
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barnabywalters yay!
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Loqi :D
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waterpigs.co.uk created /User:WaterPigs.co.uk/sandbox (+10638) "zalgo" (view diff)
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barnabywalters what is User:WaterPigs.co.uk/sandbox?
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barnabywalters heh. Loqi’s either too smart or too dumb for that
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Loqi grins profusely
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cweiske barnabywalters, I like the way you display the reply source text in your post stream
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barnabywalters cweiske: thanks! thank my mother
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barnabywalters she was complaining that she had no idea who/what I was replying to, and she hadn’t figured out that clicking on the datetime showed more detail
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barnabywalters so I added in-feed reply contexts
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@domenicoperri RT @indieboxproject: New: Indie Box Video: How it looks, and how to connect it to your home. https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/indie-box-let-s-bring-our-data-home #indieweb #indiebox (twitter.com/_/status/465810412043526144)
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rascul i keep thinking about flat files instead of a db, but there's two problems i am seeing
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rascul first is, if i want to support editing directly on the site instead of dropping file into git repo and pushing it, there's no easy way for that to work well if deployed with dokku or heroku or openshift, since they don't store site changes in the git repo
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rascul second is generating the index(es?) of posts seems like it would add complexity to something that should be simple
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rascul #1 is a problem because i'm using dokku, #2 is a problem because i haven't thought up a good way that it might be done yet
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cweiske my blog uses flat html files, and I index them in a in-memory sqlite db everytime I render them into the final files (including indexes)
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cweiske which of course takes more and more time the more articles I have
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rascul hrm
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rascul my thoughts were to keep an index in chronological order in hatom format whenever a new post is added
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rascul i got that idea from... somewhere? heh
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rascul if i don't use dokku then #1 is irrelevant, but dokku makes deploying so easy
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rascul the db vs file debate has been going through my head for weeks now btw
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cweiske btw, I'll skip the flat file indexing as soon as I add notes to my blog
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cweiske I need a db in this case, and always indexing will be too slow.
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rascul the construction of my site is stalled while i decide db vs file heh
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cweiske my blog originally use html files because I wanted to write them in emacs
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rascul i'll probably end up writing my posts in html, at least at first
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barnabywalters rascul: fwiw, all the content on my site is YAML files (probably will be switched to HTML at some point) indexed with CSV indexes, the code for which is about 210 lines, and (so far) fairly speedy
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rascul yaml and csv? interesting
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barnabywalters rascul: I chose CSV because PHP has some very fast functions for streaming CSV files
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rascul python also has some nifty csv stuff, i've used it in the past
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barnabywalters meaning I can only load the parts of the index I actually need
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barnabywalters exactly, python can do the same thing
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barnabywalters rather than using, for example, JSON, which can be streamed but is typically loaded completely into memory before usage
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rascul i briefly considered json, then decided it was too machine friendly and less human friendly
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rascul well at least for one of my ideas heh
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rascul i have lots of ideas of how to do my site, some of them are incomplete, and i'm trying to sort through them so i can get to doing the fun stuff!
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barnabywalters rascul: based on my experiences, I would suggest: store posts (all “types”) as HTML+microformats files in a folder or folder structure, indexed by a CSV file
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rascul that's very similar to what i was thinking just now
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barnabywalters I like having everything in one folder, but you may prefer to subdivide by date or something
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barnabywalters I actually subdivide by content “type” e.g. note/post/tune but wouldn’t go down that route again if starting from scratch
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barnabywalters rascul: cool. I’d say that’s the minimum, simplest base from which you can really quickly start working on the fun stuff!
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barnabywalters especially if you make a micropub endpoint and can use other people’s posting UIs
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rascul why not divide by content type?
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barnabywalters rascul: because when I wanted to put together a composite homepage stream, I had to do some weird stuff, creating a “posts” index which is a composite of the notes+articles+tunes index
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barnabywalters it’s not too hacky, and I’m comfortable with it, but it’s an extra moving part I would go without if designing from scratch
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rascul hrm
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rascul originally i was thinking of subdividing like that, but yesterday i started thinking of other ways
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barnabywalters rascul: basically, everything is just a post with a URL, a datetime and maybe some tags. those are the only things you’re likely to want to query off in my experience
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barnabywalters even things like responses, events or pieces of music are just things with URLs, datetimes and tags
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barnabywalters you can also index “type” if you want to query off that
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barnabywalters i.e. show all photos, show all responses, show all articles
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barnabywalters but IME the advantages of being able to access all content consistently is really huge
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barnabywalters e.g. here’s what a row in my “posts” composite index looks like: 4VtBxD,1399118233," granola ",,notes
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barnabywalters where the columns are id, timestamp, categories, deleted, collection
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rascul i also had thought of updating an hatom feed whenever something new is added using that for the index
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rascul also advantage of flat files is if i do it in such a way that the site is static
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rascul could do static site with db too i guess but it would be less fun
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rascul i even wrote a stupidly simple static site generator in bash https://gist.github.com/rascul/0d36a5ca866e9c925c84
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aaronpk cweiske: interesting to hear your approach! I basically had the same setup where I'd re-index all posts after creating a new one until recently
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aaronpk I rewrote my indexer so that when I edit or add a file, it only needs to rebuild the index for the rows of the index that the current post affects
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cweiske my indexer does this, too
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cweiske but I only use it for local testing
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cweiske so I have two ways of indexing
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cweiske updating and re-creation
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cweiske for updating, I have to know which file is new
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cweiske which I didn't bother to find out after a git pull on my server yet
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cweiske so I simply re-index everything
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aaronpk ah
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aaronpk gotcha
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cweiske it's probably only some 10 lines of bash in the post-receive hook
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cweiske but still
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cweiske wasn't worth it
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cweiske re-rendering all blog posts takes some 2 seconds or so
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cweiske 260
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cweiske if I add notes, things will grow more quickly
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aaronpk yeah mine started to slow down once I got all the notes and replies
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cweiske my blog's yearly bandwidth is only 17gib
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cweiske hm
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cweiske 170k visitors
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cweiske re updating: if I change the template, all posts need to be re-rendered
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cweiske so I have to check for that special case, too
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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tbrun I was on this channel yesterday and got some great help and support. I am a noobe to this so... I was told to get webmention and semantic linkback installed on my wordpress installation. I found them but they are in 'auto-installable' but I need to use ftp to get them. Could someone direct me to a place where I can get instructions on how to do this on my wp site?
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pfefferle tbrun you can download the packages from github, extract them on your computer and upload it via ftp
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pfefferle webmention plugin https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-webmention and semantic linkback https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-semantic-linkbacks
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tbrun pfefferle: do I put the wordpress-semantic-linkbacks-master directory in the plugin directory?
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pfefferle yes
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tpinto http://indietech.org/summit cool stuff
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tbrun pfefferle: Thanks - I'm off to continue working on this
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pfefferle tbrun no problem and good luck :)
warden, gRegor`, KartikPrabhu, ben_thatmustbeme and luxagraf joined the channel
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luxagraf hey all, I'm well on my way to converting my schema markup to microformats, but I have couple questions I was hoping I could get sorted
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luxagraf First is, with geodata like lat/lon that I don't want to display visually, is the Value Class Pattern still the best way to handle hidden stuff?
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luxagraf second, related not a fan of putting visual hcard on the homepage, is there a way to say, hcard is here and provide a url, like say, /about/ or whatever
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barnabywalters greetings luxagraf! welcome to #indiewebcamp
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barnabywalters RE geodata: using HTML5 <data> elements is the preferred approach
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barnabywalters e.g. <data class=“p-latitude” value=“-1.36774223”></data>
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barnabywalters RE h-card, sure you can, using rel=author and/or rel=me
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barnabywalters but I would encourage questioning closely why you don’t want a visual profile on your homepage
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KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: some people including me use an about page for self-info while having recent articles or something on the homepage.
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KartikPrabhu luxagraf: rel=me to an about page is what I am using currently
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luxagraf barnabywalters: huh, used data- attributes a lot, but never new there was a data element, I'll have to read up on that
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barnabywalters luxagraf: yep! <data> and <time> are two of the most useful new elements in HTML5 for this sort of markup
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barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: I’ve never really come across a compelling argument against having at least a photo+name of the author on your homepage
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barnabywalters from both human-usability and computer-usability POVs
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KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: it is just a design-choice. I am not claiming it is "better" in any sense
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luxagraf KartikPrabhu: That's exactly what I'd like to do I guess, are you doing rel=me on a nav menu item then?
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barnabywalters it’s your online identity, why should consumers either human or machine have to do another lookup to get the most basic possible information
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barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: so what’s the thinking behind the design choice? not being snarky, genuinely interested to know
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KartikPrabhu luxgraf: no I am using a <link> element in the head, but having it on the re=me is a good idea.
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barnabywalters who/what goals is it helping to achieve?
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luxagraf barnabywalters: Personally, I just don't like pasting my hcard info on my homepage. feel too egocentric to me. doesn't bother me when other people do it, just not something I want to do
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KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: I think it is more of how you want your homepage to be viewed. Like you said, the prevalent opinion here seems to be homepage=web identity. But in my head homepage = collection of posts, so I want the homepage to be about the posts and not me
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Loqi gives KartikPrabhu the homepage to be about the posts and not me
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KartikPrabhu lol thanks Loqi!
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Loqi you're welcome
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barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: interesting, I’ve actually changed my mind a few times about what the homepage is for
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barnabywalters for a while I considered it the place for *just* my profile, not having any posts on it
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barnabywalters but more recently changed it to having a composite stream front-and-centre, with a far more minimal profile than previously, and a few extra details like latest checkin and recent articles
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barnabywalters figuring that I’m better defined by what I post than whatever awkward prose I write about myself ;)
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KartikPrabhu agreed about awkward prose :P
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barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: luxagraf: I would encourage you both to add your thoughts on what homepages are for to http://indiewebcamp.com/homepage
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barnabywalters specifically, with your examples of homepages without profiles or bio information
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luxagraf barnabywalters: I'll have a look, see if I can distill my reasoning a bit
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KartikPrabhu opens in tab to remind himself for later
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barnabywalters thanks!
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barnabywalters luxagraf: what’s your domain?
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luxagraf http://luxagraf.net/
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luxagraf much neglected lately, but I'm working on sort of reboot
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KartikPrabhu luxagraf: add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people
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barnabywalters luxagraf: wow, that’s a great looking homepage
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KartikPrabhu yup!
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barnabywalters you could even just add <span class=“h-card”> around “Scott Gilbertson” in the footer as a minimal viable h-card :)
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barnabywalters that way at least machines can figure out your name from your homepage
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luxagraf barnabywalters: thanks. that's a good idea actually, I think I will do that.
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KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: would it not be better if the representative h-card algorithm can find the about page and get the full h-card there?
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barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: sure, and there’s no reason not to have the rel=author or rel=me links as well
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luxagraf KartikPrabhu: what I was worried about is parsers that don't follow rel to an about page though, that way they would at least get something
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barnabywalters but from a usability point of view, having the minimum h-card on the homepage helps too
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barnabywalters case in point: an application where you sign in using your domain name, and it greets you (or something) using your name
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barnabywalters it’s going to have to fetch your homepage
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luxagraf also, just logged into indiewebcamp.com and noticed that indieauth did not see a return rel link from flickr, did flickr ditch their rel links?
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barnabywalters and if it finds a name on there, it doesn’t have to fetch any more pages before it can do it’s stuff
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barnabywalters faster = better UX
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KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: yeah I have an hcard on my homepage too ;)
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barnabywalters luxagraf: personally I’ve never managed to get Flickr indieauth signin to work :(
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luxagraf barnabywalters: also fewer http requests = faster
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barnabywalters luxagraf: exactly! and less load on your server, etc.
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KartikPrabhu luxagraf: flickr seems to be down for indieauth
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KartikPrabhu ref: http://indiewebcamp.com/indieauth
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KartikPrabhu i have found Github and G+ to me most consistent
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KartikPrabhu s/me/be
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Loqi KartikPrabhu meant to say: i have found Github and G+ to be most consistent
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aaronpk there was some weird thing that happened a while ago with flickr, I think there's enough there now that I could re-implement it https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth/issues/1
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barnabywalters flickr doesn’t seem to work, but github, twitter, persona and (when I had a phone) SMS are all solid
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luxagraf.net edited /IRC_People (+55) (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /mf2util (+56) "add dfn tag" (view diff)
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luxagraf.net created /User:Luxagraf.net (+54) "Created page with "is <a href="http://luxagraf.net/">Scott Gilbertson</a>"" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /PHP (+169) "add libraries section" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /WordPress (+56) "update dfn" (view diff)
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luxagraf this is maybe not strictly an indieweb thing, but is there some wiki page somewhere covering why microformatsv2 didn't use HTML5 data-* attributes?
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KartikPrabhu luxagraf: data-* attributes for what?
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luxagraf instead of classnames
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KartikPrabhu hmm
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luxagraf like data-h-card
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barnabywalters luxagraf: classnames are for adding extra semantics to elements (which is what microformats are doing), whereas data-* attributes are specified for use within a particular application
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barnabywalters i.e. not to be parsed by external applications
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barnabywalters also, class attributes are much more well known by developers
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barnabywalters and support multiple values much better
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KartikPrabhu that is what I was thinking too. I think of data-* more as something that a javascript uses rather than adding semantics
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gRegor` Also http://microformats.org/wiki/faq#Q._Why_don.27t_microformats_use_the_HTML5_data-_attributes_to_embed_data.3F
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barnabywalters thanks gRegor`! didn’t know that existed
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gRegor` Me either. Just went hunting. :)
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gRegor` Also, dat anchor name.
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barnabywalters hah
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KartikPrabhu i knew that existed and was looking for it. good hunting gregor`
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luxagraf gRegor`: thank you, exactly what I wanted, didn't turn up in my searching
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JonathanNeal Anyone here at Event Apart San Diego?
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gRegor` Welcome
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dariusdunlap Indie Box explained by Wired magazine: http://www.wired.com/2014/05/out-in-the-open-indie-box/
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kylewm.com edited /mf2util (+88) "added link to read the docs" (view diff)
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aaronpk oh good klint wrote about it!
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@indieboxproject Indie Box article on Wired is up to 1500 Shares on Facebook. #amazed #indiebox #indieweb https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/indie-box-let-s-bring-our-data-home/ (twitter.com/_/status/465900480950853632)
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@hagelsteen contemplating going #indieweb ? http://www.linkedin.com/slink?code=dp8XiKv (twitter.com/_/status/465904170319347712)
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@own_out RT @NZN: #freedombox session and #indiebox demo at #iiw to reclaim control of #indieweb by #SovereignIndividuals ... the underlying shift i… (twitter.com/_/status/465907798048387072)
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@CinePochoclero Con #webmention todos felices y trackeando las peliculas de #Zombies que más les gustan #tcdolivos #boxoffice (twitter.com/_/status/465909496788029440)
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@ZombotZRA RT @CinePochoclero: Con #webmention todos felices y trackeando las peliculas de #Zombies que más les gustan #tcdolivos #boxoffice (twitter.com/_/status/465910865490096128)
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Loqi tantek: gRegor` left you a message on 5/10 at 1:05pm: http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Gregorlove.com#mf2_date_and_time_parsing
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Loqi tantek: gRegor` left you a message on 5/10 at 1:18pm: You can probably disregard that link. Apparently I need more coffee because I'm making silly mistakes. :)
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Loqi tantek: gRegor` left you a message on 5/10 at 1:55pm: Instead, have a look at http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Gregorlove.com/sandbox
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Loqi tantek: aaronpk left you a message on 5/11 at 9:00pm: in the three pages I've been using to test creating an automatic summary from the dfn, I have encountered different edge cases which cause it to fail. I believe we will need to explicitly mark up the summary sentence.
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Loqi tantek: aaronpk left you a message on 5/11 at 9:54pm: nevermind
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tantek good morning #Indiewebcamp
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tantek heh
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tantek double heh!
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gRegor` Haha
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gRegor` Look at this, no ignore that, look at this, no ignore that. :)
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brainTrain if you hold your breath, rub your belly and pat your head while looking at/ignoring the correct things there's an easter egg waitin for you! \o/
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aaronpk tantek: you may be interested in: http://indiewebcamp.com/this-week/2014-05-12.html
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tantek gRegor`: lots of display:none going on in there - I wonder if there is any way to reduce those (and come up with a way of making the info visible and meaningful)
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gRegor` tantek: Not with MediaWiki as it's set up currently.
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gRegor` Did lots of testing. Cannot have a template put template variables inside <time> or <abbr> elements
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tantek aaronpk - that's amazing!
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aaronpk looks great on a kindle too :)
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gRegor` They're just taken as literal strings, like <time>{{{variable_name}}}</time>
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gRegor` Very cool, aaronpk!
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tantek aaronpk - I might be interested in seeing the *new* pages summary list in its own list *first* before all the edited pages
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aaronpk ah yeah I could break the TOC out into new/edited
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tantek figuring that new pages may deserve closer review and attention
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tantek wow last week was a busy week!
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aaronpk yeah! I was surprised!
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tantek I was making up for not being at IIW ;)
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bnvk heh heh a "Facepile"
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tantek aaronpk - "this-week" summary page will greatly help with blogging a summary too (should any of us want to do so)!
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aaronpk yes! good point!
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tommorris has finally gotten around to going through KartikPrabhu’s changes to mf2py
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tommorris they all look mostly sensible
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snarfed tommorris++
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Loqi tommorris has 22 karma
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tommorris I’m very tempted to put out a new release.
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indie-visitor Hello everyone
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j12t Indie Box wired article is at 2000 Facebook shares since this morning. Having a hard time wrapping my mind around that one :-)
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ben_thatmustbeme hey indie-visitor you should change your name to something more descriptive
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ben_thatmustbeme hello everyone else
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snarfed congrats j12t~!
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j12t Thanks!!
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KartikPrabhu tommorris :D right in time when kylewm found a quirky bs4 probelm :P
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tommorris KartikPrabhu: can you point me to the quirky BS4 problem and I’ll have a look at it
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KartikPrabhu indie-visitor: use "/nick yourname" to change your nick :)
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KartikPrabhu tommorris: yes looking forit
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indie-visitor <adrbin> not the brightest crayon
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KartikPrabhu tommorris: here is the detailed issue: https://github.com/kartikprabhu/mf2py/pull/37 it is not used in the version you just pulled so that should be fine
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ben_thatmustbeme all crayons are good
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: did you revert back to old mf2py on your api endpoint? this http://kylewm.com/api/mf2?url=http://silencematters.com seems to work now
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KartikPrabhu !tell kylewm: did you revert back to old mf2py on your api endpoint? this http://kylewm.com/api/mf2?url=http://silencematters.com seems to work now
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tommorris KartikPrabhu: okay, we’ll wait and see on that BS4 bug. if nothing gets done on it imminently, I’ll have a look at it and see if we can push a patch upstream
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tommorris in the meantime, seems sensible to cut a new release
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tommorris mf2py 0.2.0 coming right up. :)
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KartikPrabhu that'll be cool! :D
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GWG I need to name something.
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GWG I am having trouble.
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GWG I created a WordPress plugin that displays the Metadata from the semantic link back plugin as a facepile and marks up all comments using mf2
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GWG I called it Semantic Comments, but I'm experiencing name doubt
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tantek GWG - your doubt is likely based in reason. Calling things "Semantic" is usually quite meaningless, ironically.
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GWG Semantic was referring to the plugin it requires.
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tantek plugins all the way down!
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GWG But I am trying to think of something better
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kylewm.com edited /Python (-32) "/* Libraries */ link mf2util to local page" (view diff)
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tantek GWG - the more the name focuses on the most visible features / impacts of the plugin, the better
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tommorris New version of mf2py 0.2.0 — https://pypi.python.org/pypi/mf2py
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aaronpk tommorris: congrats you beat the twitter bots
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tantek nice!
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tantek GWG - it sounds like facepiling likes and reposts is the biggest visible feature of the plugin - is that correct?
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GWG And the mf2, but the Facepile is visible yes
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tantek right, the uf2 support is a, "but of course!" kind of thing
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tantek if you want to connect it by name to the dependency of the Semantic link back plugin
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tantek you could call it something like
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GWG I was trying to figure out how to convey you need webmention and semantic link back plugin support
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tantek Semantic Facepiler
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tantek does Semantic link back depend on webmention support?
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GWG Yes
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tommorris and just put up http://tommorris.org/posts/8928 :)
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tantek then you don't need to convey that explicitly since it is implied by the dependency chain
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GWG The reason I initially had questions about the Facepile is that it takes over all Comments display.
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KartikPrabhu tommorris++ new mf2py!
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Loqi tommorris has 23 karma
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GWG All webmentions are stored in the comments system.
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aaronpk now I want a way to add external links to the "week in indieweb" posts
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Loqi gives aaronpk a way to add external links to the
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Loqi kylewm: KartikPrabhu left you a message 15 minutes ago: did you revert back to old mf2py on your api endpoint? this http://kylewm.com/api/mf2?url=http://silencematters.com seems to work now
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GWG If the individual had the webmentions support but not the semantic link back plugin, it would still display the comments in mf2 markup and thus still have utility.
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indie-visitor It's me again <adrbin>I just wanted to chime in about coupling services utilizing webhooks...I believe it was rascul needing an interface for his static-site generator ...I've found a few http://prose.io/#about
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GWG I'm overthinking this again, aren't I?
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tantek GWG - not at all. It's an interesting challenge.
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tantek and cool that your plugin works with or without Semantic linkbacks
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GWG Well, I may have to change it. Without the link back plugin, it may display all webmentions as a facepile. The link back plugin converts some to comments.
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GWG I was testing that at indiewebcamp nyc.
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@nobantu RT@indieboxproject Indie Box campaign update: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/indie-box-let-s-bring-our-data-home/#activity … #indiebox #indieweb #excitementbuilds:-) Bring YOUR Data Home! (twitter.com/_/status/465925249830096896)
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GWG If it isn't a semantic action the plugin recognizes, it classifies it as a comment.
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KartikPrabhu speaking of NYC, anyone have recommendations for places to stay. I'm investigating for the IWC in June
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tantek KartikPrabhu: would be great to see you in NYC!
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tantek if you've got the time, go ahead and RSVP, and maybe just add a note about looking into places to stay
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GWG KartikPrabhu, you want to be in Manhattan?
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indie-visitor aTthe second is https://draftin.com/ the great thing about the draft.in is you can work in teams......https://draftin.com/documents/69898?token=5fjKKlZ0-AeBzqj_RAftAGdzRzl9VBfBHj5wpSWm_gU
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: tommorris: I installed lxml on my server, and it's using that instead of html5lib
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kylewm that's why it's not crashing...
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: hmm weird!
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@genshilab genshi.box gives back control of your Digital Life with innovative Personal Social Networking Appliance - https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/genshi-box-personal-social-networking-appliance #IndieWeb (twitter.com/_/status/465926168135233536)
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tommorris kylewm, KartikPrabhu: might be an idea if we had switchable back-ends so you can go from html5lib to lxml if you prefer
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tantek.com edited /2014/Guest_List (+99) "/* Official Guest List */ East/West capacities, am looking into where to stay in NYC" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu GWG: Since I've never been to NYC, I really don't know :P
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tantek KartikPrabhu: there you go - added same thing for myself
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KartikPrabhu tommorris: yes I was thinking of having an optional parser argument, or setting up some sort of parser priority list
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KartikPrabhu tantek: ha! under Indieweb Projects :P
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dariusdunlap Indie Box meetup this evening in Mountain View: http://www.meetup.com/indiebox/?gj=ej1b&a=wg2_cio
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: tommorris: BS4 by default uses lxml if it's installed, then html5lib if it's installed, then falls back on Python's builtin html parser
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tommorris seems sensible to stick with that then. ;)
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kylewm agreed
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kylewm tommorris++ for a new mf2py release!
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Loqi tommorris has 24 karma
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KartikPrabhu hmm cool! lets stick with what we have then :)
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GWG I have to head out. I have a 3pm. KartikPrabhu, I would like to give you my thoughts later.
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KartikPrabhu GWG: thanks!
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aaronpk Whoa where did this genshi box come from?
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tantek dariusdunlap: put the indiebox meetup on /events !
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GWG Tantek, maybe I should think what else might belong in my plugin.
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tantek GWG - sure, but for now, don't let naming stop you from shipping it
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tantek consider this, what do you think is the #1 reason WP users would want to download and install it?
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kbs aaronpk: having a hard time finding technical details about how it actually works/is set up - if you find something, do let me know :)
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kylewm tommorris: you can add "Programming Language :: Python :: 3" to the classifiers too: https://travis-ci.org/kylewm/mf2py/jobs/24505797
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tommorris kylewm: yep, will do.
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aaronpk kbs: yeah, not much detail on the indiegogo page
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aaronpk like..what blog software will it run?
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kylewm it does apparently mount on a mini-tripod though... (2:11 in the video)
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dunlaps.net edited /Events (+639) "/* Upcoming */" (view diff)
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dariusdunlap tantek: done.
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dariusdunlap aaronpk, kbs: Yeah, I only just saw Genshi Box, too. Maybe Johannes knows more. I’ll ask him tonight, for sure.
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aaronpk cool
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aaronpk the guy is from portland too!
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dariusdunlap aaronpk: You could invite him into your evil lair…
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dariusdunlap ;-)
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aaronpk yeah might have to do that!
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tommorris Interestingly: found a reason why microformats and data-in-HTML more generally > other formats. Encoding is a solved problem.
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tommorris I just downloaded an iCal event from Meetup.com and loaded it into OS X’s Calendar app. It turned the apostrophe in “King’s Cross” into a trademark, a Euro symbol and some other character.
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tantek interesting
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tantek perhaps a good start to a /ics page
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tantek with an Issues section
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tommorris both HTML and XML-based formats have actually resolved those kinds of things by having the encoding specific in the markup (in HTML’s case using meta charset, in XML’s case in the processing instruction)
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tommorris will do that in a sec.
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ben_thatmustbeme still checking my google Now cards all the time to see who will pop up next
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ben_thatmustbeme haha
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tommorris ah, to be fair, the iCal problem reflected a problem with Meetup’s markup. "King’s Cross” is on the web page too.
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tommorris bad encoding at the CMS level rather than the iCalendar level.
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aaronpk toss that one in /databases-antipaterns ;)
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tommorris I have a funny feeling meetup.com aren’t gonna switch to static HTML.
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aaronpk :)
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tommorris and whatever storage system you use, text formatting mismatches are going to byte you.
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jonnybarnes iseewhatyoudidthere.jpg
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tommorris they’ll byte you and leave an order mark in the process.
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tommorris that wasn’t actually intentional until after I pressed enter
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KartikPrabhu oh noes! I changed the name of the Django app that runs my site (progressing towards opensourcing it) and broke my database!
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luxagraf KartikPrabhu: that sucks. table prefixes?
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@sbenthall RT @npdoty: @konklone that feature is a lovely side effect of the indieweb method: a fav has its own URL and you can fav any URL. Favs all … (twitter.com/_/status/465940731731800064)
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KartikPrabhu yeah
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luxagraf isn't the new south/migrations stuff supposed to prevent that?
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KartikPrabhu i thought so, but south failed miserably to just change the app_name in the tables.
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KartikPrabhu I'll have to do some weird SQL things! boo!
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snarfed luxagraf, re not putting all of your h-card on your front page, i handle that by hiding some parts of mine with css display: none
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luxagraf it's a very temporary fix, but you could use the db_table option in the meta class to rename then to the old names...
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snarfed (e.g. https://snarfed.org/ )
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snarfed it's a contentious technique, many people around here aren't fans, but it works for me
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luxagraf snarfed: that's what I was going to do, but display:none or whatever feels wrong to me.
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luxagraf I'm still thinking it over. for years and year luxagraf had no name attached at all. I've been slowly uping the authorship over the years
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KartikPrabhu luxagraf: thanks.. luckily this is on my local version and not live, so I can muck around without breaking everything
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luxagraf I may eventually work an h-card into the homepage design somehow
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snarfed luxagraf: eh. yeah, it's debatable, but meh. we put plenty of other info in our html that's only meant for machines. if we choose to include some h-card parts in that, on some pages, seems fine to me.
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snarfed the beauty of personal home pages is, we can each decide for ourselves :P
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luxagraf snarfed: exactly, but the indiewebify.me requirements seem to imply otherwise
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KartikPrabhu luxagraf: those need not be taken as requirements as much as guidelines
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snarfed yeah, it's strongly opinionated. we could maybe tone down its language a bit for things that are encouraged but not strictly required by any spec
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snarfed fwiw, indiewebify.me is fine with display:none data
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KartikPrabhu visibility:hidden is another option in case you are worried about screen readers or somethign
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dariusdunlap luxagraf: Indie Web presumes that you have a “me” home site that is you, not a psuedonym or company. Or at least where the connection is transparent. Personally, I still think there is a more subtle identity-to-pseudonym connection that we have to figure out. Some kind of one-way assertion that verifies/vlidates a pseudonym, but is not actually traceable back to the identity of the owner.
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luxagraf KartikPrabhu: yeah I try to avoid display:hide for accessibility reasons. Do any screenreaders support microformats?
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aaronpk dariusdunlap: when would that be needed? there's nothing wrong with having a completely separate pseudonym right now.
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KartikPrabhu luxagraf: not that i know of, but I don't keep track of these things
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dariusdunlap Across multiple sites/services where you want to be able to assert “yes, this is the same ‘snarfed’”
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luxagraf dariusdunlap: ++ I think that's close to my number one issue with the indieweb ideal, that there's a one-to-one relationship
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dariusdunlap But you don’t really want to tie that pseudonym back to a personal IRL identity.
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aaronpk I guess i'm having trouble imagining a situation where you'd want the one-way link
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KartikPrabhu luxagraf: dariusdunlap: you can have a pseudonym and not connect it back to a personal URL, by making a completely separate site
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aaronpk yeah that makes sense to me
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luxagraf what if you wanted something to to be on equal footing with snarfed.org? Like this site is also me, not just a place that I POSSE to?
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KartikPrabhu rel=me is for that. rel=me is not just for POSSE
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dariusdunlap KartikPrabhu: I think that’s a possible solution for many cases within the current stuff.
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tiagopinto.pt edited /IRC_People (+50) "adding myself to the IRC peeps" (view diff)
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aaronpk dariusdunlap: can you give me an example of when you might want the one-way link? right now i just hear that it might be useful
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luxagraf KartikPrabhu: but my understanding of rel=me is that it asserts "this is also <coreidentity>"
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luxagraf KartikPrabhu: rather than, <identity1> and <identity2> are on equal footing
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KartikPrabhu yes. but it doesnot designate it as an "inferior copy"
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aaronpk luxagraf: those two statements sound identical to me
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KartikPrabhu luxagraf: I have a rel=me to my github from my homepage, but also a rel=me to my homepage from my github... they are equivalent
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luxagraf aaronpk: fair enough, maybe i just haven't completely wrapped my head around everything
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dariusdunlap aaronpk: The idea is to have the identity connection assertable, but not reversable.
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aaronpk dariusdunlap: i understand the idea, but I'm not hearing any real-world examples of when you'd use it
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KartikPrabhu luxagraf: if it helps, POSSE copies should be indicated by a rel=canonical link rather than any rel=me type link
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KartikPrabhu and that is on a post-by-post basis rather than profile to profile
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luxagraf KartikPrabhu: okay. here's the particular situation I'm thinking of, so I have luxagraf.net, it points to a github account named luxagraf. Then I also have another site, longhandpixels.net, it also points to a github account, longhandpixels. How do I mark up html such that someone can figure out all those endpoints come from the same person/identity?
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dariusdunlap aaronpk: real life person wants to privately assert that they really are “snarfed”, but in a private context.
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KartikPrabhu luxagraf: what is the canonical URL you have chosen as that identity?
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aaronpk assert to what?
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luxagraf KartikPrabhu: which identity?
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tiagopinto.pt created /User:Tiagopinto.pt (+168) "not a lot but better than no content, I guess" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu luxagraf: yes that is my question. do you wish to maintain a single identity or multiple ones?
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kylewm luxagraf: your use case sounds like http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Kodfabrik.se
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luxagraf I wish to maintain a single identity with many aliases
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luxagraf many online aliases
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KartikPrabhu if you want multiple one then you are already set. There is a "luxagraf" and there is a "longhandpixels" each with a github account but separate people. If you want to connect them both into one "luxagraf" identity then you just add a rel-me from "longhandpixels.net" to "luxagraf.net"
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dariusdunlap aaronpk: To a journalist, or someone you are going to start working with. What if some of your most important work is under that pseudonym? if you live somewhere where what you are saying could be a problem.
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KartikPrabhu luxagraf: so you have URLs for all the aliases but not for the actual identity?
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dariusdunlap aaronpk: Anywhere where you want to be able to selectively identify yourself.
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aaronpk ok there's an actual use case! thanks
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luxagraf kylewm: yup, that about covers it
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luxagraf KartikPrabhu: yes, in a manner of speaking
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dariusdunlap aaronpk: I’m sure there are some peoplewho know who the Macalope is… ;-)
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KartikPrabhu luxagraf: then what I'd do is have a rel-me from luxagraf to longhandpixels and another one the other way. that way they are both identified but equal
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luxagraf dariusdunlap: yes, there are.
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tantek you can make as many indie identities as you want
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tantek rel=me is just a way of deliberately consolidating the ones that *you* want to consolidate
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luxagraf KartikPrabhu: But in that case they're also equal with a rel=me to my github accounts right?
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tantek luxagraf - technically everything that rel=me links together is "equal". However you can do graph analysis and find hub & spoke patterns and assert importance to the hub
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tantek in our case, the "hub" tends to be your indie web site itself so that works out well
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dariusdunlap tantek: for most use cases, the independent and disconnected Indie identity covers it. Might even work for the specialized case, if there was something like the common “add this to that identity’s canonical domain to prove you control that domain”.
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luxagraf tantek: right. i guess what I'm getting at is that seems like there's an argument that could be made for a hierachary with rel=me. as in this is me, i own this. and this is me, but it's some company's silo.
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tantek luxagraf - so far there hasn't been a concrete need for that
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tantek thus not really seeing a practical argument
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tantek dariusdunlap so far we haven't had a need for the notion of "identity’s canonical domain"
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tiagopinto.pt edited /User:Tiagopinto.pt (+294) (view diff)
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tiagopinto.pt edited /User:Tiagopinto.pt (+10) "/* Some kind of to-do list */" (view diff)
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dariusdunlap tantek: I overstated it, could be any site in your rel=me network for that identity.
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tantek aaronpk, does the script does the the "this week" dumps also have access to indiewebcamp.com webmention receive logs? could also list the pages (in descending order of # of mentions) that have received mentions over the past week
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aaronpk tantek: that's a great idea
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aaronpk the script can just query the webmention.io api
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tiagopinto.pt edited /User:Tiagopinto.pt (+101) "/* Tiago Pinto */" (view diff)
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luxagraf KartikPrabhu: one a different note, have you integrated webmentions into django? (I also use Django to run my site and am about to tackle this)
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dariusdunlap tantek: but practically, doesn’t indie Web kind of assuem that there’s a tanktek.com that’s your hub you use to “identify” yourself?
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dariusdunlap tantek, aaronpk: that’s a cool idea.
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aaronparecki.com edited /this-week-in-the-indieweb (+161) "add section for ideas" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /Django (+304) "stub with indieweb examples" (view diff)
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tantek luxagraf - feel free to expand from an indieweb perspective: http://indiewebcamp.com/Django :)
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tantek.com edited /Django (+35) "used in projects" (view diff)
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tantek dariusdunlap: indieweb certainly strongly encourages people to use domains they own
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luxagraf tantek: thanks, i'll try to add something useful for others
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kylewm luxagraf: we added some info about libraries to the /Python page last week that might be useful
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@overleo App Links - IndieWebCamp: App Links - IndieWebCamp App Links are a technology launched 2014-04-30(?) by... http://indiewebcamp.com/App_Links [fav] (twitter.com/_/status/465951073534889985)
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luxagraf tantek: afraid my use of django (and postgis) seriously contradicts the whole no-databases argument
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aaronpk here's a thought re: databases-antipattern
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aaronpk for anyone who *is* using a database as their primary data store, I would love to hear how you have countered all the downsides documented there
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aaronpk I mean there's no problem with differing opinions on this, but just saying "text files are dumb I like databases" is not particularly useful
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luxagraf aaronpk: I have encountered none of the downsides documented there. but then I don't use mysql so maybe that's part of it.
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tantek aaronpk where's that quote from?
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tantek luxagraf what do you use?
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aaronpk it's a not-very-well-distilled version of the sentiment I am hearing from people
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luxagraf postgresql. only thing that supports GIS data in any real way.
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tantek aaronpk - sentiment? meh.
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tantek once it gets documented somewhere, then we can follow-up
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aaronpk it may also be worth mentioning any of those points that are specific to mysql
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tantek til then, it's just idle chatter/noise
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KartikPrabhu luxagraf: I do have webmentions integrated mostly using ronkyuu and mf2py with some custom code to talk to my site setup
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tantek aaronpk - I think the citations speak for themselves (re: specific to mysql)
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luxagraf KartikPrabhu: okay, yeah, that's the direction I was headed as well.
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KartikPrabhu luxagraf: you might want to check out kylewm's mf2util which looks neat
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luxagraf tantek: I mean technically all those things apply to postgres as well, so I might just be lucky.
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tantek.com edited /MySQL (+86) "see also PostgreSQL" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu also I am seriously considering moving to file-based storage. The whole MySQL thing seems clunky to me
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kylewm aw, thanks KartikPrabhu
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luxagraf tantek: FWIW I wrote a flat-file publishing system, but missed the ability to easily manipulate geodata so I never launched it.
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: I was writing similar code to parse comments. also adding suitable fall backs in case mf2 is not found. I might opensource that or just fork your mf2util or something
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kylewm would love to collaborate on it
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luxagraf KartikPrabhu: Ran across this a while back, very interesting use of django and git for file-based system: http://luispedro.org/software/git-cms
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tantek.com created /PostgreSQL (+696) "stub with indieweb examples" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /postgresql (+24) "r" (view diff)
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kylewm Also I viewed /databases-antipattern in the context that most of the world designs their software around a databases, so it's saying "ask yourself if you really need it or if it's a premature optimization"
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kylewm Maybe good to have the opposing view if file-backed data is the norm within indiewebcamp now :)
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luxagraf kylewm: that would be the open-minded way, I read it as, hmm, this people are off their rockers :-)
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kylewm lol
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KartikPrabhu luxagraf: that does look interesting. I am more inclined to use mf2-based files since I can just use mf2py to parse and get the data ;)
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kylewm throwing out the baby with the bathwater, as it were?
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KartikPrabhu afaik: gregor` has been adding things in support of databases lately
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KartikPrabhu mf2py = golden hammer in my mind now :P
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gRegor` Hm?
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tantek.com edited /database (+321) "explicit stub, dfn, software list, see also" (view diff)
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KevinMarks_ luxagraf: databases have their place for uniform data
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@superfeedr @voxpelli Hey, did you see this https://snarfed.org/2014-05-10_indieweb-people-update-your-webmention-discovery by @schnarfed ? (twitter.com/_/status/465954326033485825)
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KevinMarks_ the antipattern is Procrustes, assuming that data must be made uniform
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: talking about the /databases-antipattern
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luxagraf I have nothing against file-based storage. think stuff like jekyll is awesome for even some pretty complicated scenarios, but there comes a point when you're righting code that relates stuff together that you might want to consider a RELATIONAL database. It's a problem that's been solved a couple times already.
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gRegor` Ahh, gotcha.
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tantek KevinMarks: I'd disagree, databases never have a place in any longterm persistent storage. Databases can be useful for cachine information in a structured way for performance reasons.
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aaronpk luxagraf: keep in mind that the whole page is talking about databases as your *primary* storage
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KartikPrabhu yeah what aaronpk said :)
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tantek aaronpk - databases by their very context assume they are primary storage.
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aaronpk my site's primary storage is files on disk, but I actually query everything from the database version http://indiewebcamp.com/database-cache
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tantek hence why that page is so strongly worded against them
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KevinMarks_ the other paradigm is the mapreduce one, where databases are volatile things you construct from documents int he world to answer a specific question
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tantek KevinMarks: sounds like you should start the /mapreduce article with that as a stub dfn :)
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KevinMarks_ or rather a specific pattern of questions
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tantek but yes, database are volatile things :)
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luxagraf aaronpk: true. and I do write out my site as flat html files, ala movable type sort of a thing. so in that sense I get the best of both worlds.
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gRegor` I just realized the irony of /database-antipattern being on a MediaWiki page.
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aaronpk gRegor`: that's why I just did this: http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/backup
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aaronpk which turns all mediawiki pages into text files for long-term archiving
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gRegor` I saw that. That's awesome
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tantek gRegor`: there's an effort to design/build a personal wiki based on flat file storage: http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki-projects#Static_Pages_Plus_HTTP_Headers
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aaronpk because I don't trust MW's database long term
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kylewm snarfed: did you know your twitter card has odd brackets/parens in it? http://imgur.com/85gIKHQ
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snarfed kylewm: sadly yes
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luxagraf tantek, gRegor`: there's also https://github.com/gollum/gollum
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tantek wonders if irony is worth an FAQ
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aaronpk probably, with a link to /wiki/backup
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luxagraf tantek: I don't disagree that databases are volatile things, but filesystems can be as well, hard disks fail, VPS crash. Seems more like an argument for good backup strategies than anything
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aaronpk so, funny story, counter to databases-antipattern. I recently discovered I had lost a photo project (photo-a-day for a year), couldn't find it on my servers and wasn't in my backups.
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aaronpk the only remnant I found, was in my currently-live server database, a list of all the photos and their captions
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aaronpk somehow that database managed to migrate from server to server over the past 7 years, but I literally lost the jpg files
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KevinMarks_ the other pattern I see is people using image files as attempts at permanance
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: but if you lost the files then what good is the databaselist+captions?
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: not very good, but better than nothing
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aaronpk also if I had put the images themselves in the database I would still have them
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tantek luxagraf - exactly, backup strategies. people are already backing up their static files. adding database backups adds a tax. hence databases bad for persistence.
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: yeah probably
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KevinMarks_ https://twitter.com/Steve_Lockstep/status/465957033120776192/photo/1
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@Steve_Lockstep .@paulmadsen Too obvious https://twitter.com/Steve_Lockstep/status/465957033120776192/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/465957033120776192)
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KartikPrabhu oh internet of things
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luxagraf tantek: true, and to be fair I guess, though my admin interacts directly with the database, I don't really consider it my primary data store.
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tantek luxagraf you "admin" - right - that's a dependency, and not as "indie"
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tantek hence why databases are particularly bad for *indie* solutions where you have to be responsible for it all yourself
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tantek or it raises the cost - to pay an admin to do it for you
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tantek *your admin
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KartikPrabhu luxagraf: my aim for my Django site is to have micropub working so I can bypass Django's admin UI (which is horrible), store data as files first and then construct DB as cache... but those are lofty goals if I can't get MySQL to do things correctly!
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KartikPrabhu tantek: I think luxagraf meant "admin interface" not a human admin :)
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KevinMarks_ that is part of my existential struggle with django and rails, that they start with db models of the world
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_: yes. I have had so many fights with Django and MySQL! :(
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aaronpk it's not much of a struggle with me. I just avoid rails and use the good parts of Ruby
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: yeah I might eventually go that route, using file-storage and some Flask instead of the full Django stack
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kylewm I have to admit, Flask + SQLAlchemy was rather nice
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kylewm no experience with Django for comparison though
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KartikPrabhu Django's main feature (also its main drawback IMO) is the ORM, mapping objects (like posts) to a Database. which can be annoying and restrictive at times
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk, I really hated rails but i liked django. I love ruby and i hate python..... and i work in php
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ben_thatmustbeme i'm all kinds of screwed up
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: can you say more about why you'd use mf2 as storage? I know that's what tantek does but it seems a little circuitous to me... converting HTML to JSON (using a big html parser + a small mf2 parser) back to HTM
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: as opposed to say python dictionaries?
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tantek kylewm - the theory is, the best storage is the one that is easiest to a) inspect, b) edit, c) repair - and yes, by hand, because you end up doing that eventually for anything. or someone does.
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tantek HTML is better than JSON at all of those
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tantek though there is some argument to be made that Markdown (or some strict flavor thereof) may be even better than HTML in that way as well
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tantek keeps being tempted to explore static markdown files.
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kylewm ok, hmm that makes sense.
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tantek for persistence and reliablity, it makes sense to be human-optimized first, and machine-optimal second
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KartikPrabhu on the other hand I'm just using my new golden hammer mf2py ;)
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kylewm markdown is missing the metadata without some kind of frontmatter
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kylewm and for a lot of my notes, the frontmatter is >> the content
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tantek kylewm - right, markdown would need some clever (read: user-friendly) extensions for "metadata" (I think it's actual data but hey I get you)
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tantek or deeper structures
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tantek which HTML+ufs gives you
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kylewm cool, thanks :)
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kylewm I will ponder
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brainTrain wait, how is json harder than html to inspect/edit/repair? this is probably more of a personal question, but I find json to be much easier to debug than html, for example
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brainTrain mostly because there's less cruft
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aaronpk yaml > json for that IMO
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aaronpk brainTrain: but good luck editing paragraphs of text in JSON
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brainTrain yeah I only used yaml for some basic app engine stuff
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KevinMarks_ well, HTML has rules defined for parsing when it's invalid too, so more resilient
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kylewm brainTrain: compare http://tantek.com/2014/129/t2/great-launches-leveled-up-indieweb-ownyourdata and http://kylewm.com/api/mf2?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftantek.com%2F2014%2F129%2Ft2%2Fgreat-launches-leveled-up-indieweb-ownyourdata
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: that is unfair. You'd want to compare the HTML-source
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KevinMarks_ JSON is a natural fit for a certain set of data models
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brainTrain yeah I'm gonna go with the json blob every time, even with huge paragraphs. It's easier to skim past for me
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brainTrain but again I feel like this is more of a taste question than anything
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tantek KartikPrabhu: not true. the ability to use CSS to make the HTML even more presentable/inspectable is one of its strengths
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tantek until someone figures out JSON+CSS
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tantek another *huge* HTML+ufs advantage is better DRY
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aaronpk skimming sure, but try editing the text in the JSON! one stray " and you're done
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tantek almost ALL JSON and XML "equivalents" have major DRY violtions
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tantek s/violtions/violations
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Loqi tantek meant to say: almost ALL JSON and XML "equivalents" have major DRY violations
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yes but that is just for display/reading. If we want to comapre how readable and editable it is then comparing to source is more fair
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brainTrain yeah but one stray < and you could be even worse off in html land
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brainTrain since some browsers will fix shit for you, and then your eyeballs are really bleedin trying to find the issue
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kylewm I find it hard to parse the JSON by eye, you skim down see "item" { ... { "author" : "Some Random Commenter"
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aaronpk html parsers deal better with syntax errors. not sure if that's a benefit of HTML or a drawback of JSON
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tantek this -> hard to parse the JSON by eye
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kylewm I'm not convinced dealing with syntax errors is a strength at all
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KevinMarks_ really needs to revive JSON <-> XOXO as a service
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tantek the very nature of JSON makes it more "wordy'
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tantek especially in terms of "punctuation"
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brainTrain yeah I dunno, I've really dug using json, still have yet to learn anything sophisticated in xml, but I do write html almost every day
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KartikPrabhu I like the "soft" syntax of HTML...
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tantek and prett-printing it looks less friendly than pretty printing HTML
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aaronpk what is xoxo?
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brainTrain same with json
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brainTrain I'd say json is more portable from language to language, which is a huge plus
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brainTrain like, it's cool I can just dump a js object or json blob into python and use it as a dict
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tantek that portability is part of the 2) machine-optimal part
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brainTrain yeah
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tantek so not "huge" compared to human verifiability, inspectability, editability
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brainTrain so wait I'm at work meaning I'm jumping in half way (sorry :p) is this discussion in relation to what to store for some indie web project?
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tantek #1 importance of storage is long term data quality
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tantek everything else is secondary
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KevinMarks_ http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2004/07/21/dive.html
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aaronpk heh, the summary here doesn't really clear it up http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo
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brainTrain in that case I don't really see html being a replacement for json
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brainTrain since more languages follow the object model json uses
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tantek brainTrain: HTML already wins over JSON in terms of longevity
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tantek it's got a huge headstart
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tantek ;)
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tantek I don't see JSON as a replacement for HTML ;)
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tantek JSON is an ephemeral convenience for programming languages, nothing more
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KevinMarks_ XOXO statted out as an HTML outline format, and became a way to turn JSON into HTML and back usefully
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brainTrain well for actually storing data it already is, html's for rendering
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brainTrain object oriented programming and all
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tantek the irony is that it turns out rendering data is what makes it more accurate (higher quality) over time
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tantek since humans actually look at it, catch errors more quickly etc.
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luxagraf tantek: oh no, I meant my django-based web admin interface interacts directly with the database. I still do everything myself.
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KevinMarks_ brainTrain: that was what got us in the wrong palce to begin with, HTML as write-only medium
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brainTrain but yeah as far as what's rendered in the browser that's a different story
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tantek hence why rendering matters, why HTML is better for longevity etc.
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brainTrain well so another n00b question
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brainTrain I've always seen this argument as json vs xml
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brainTrain and to me I don't see a huge difference (format wise) between xml and html
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tantek brainTrain: right, XML was an even more abysmal failure in terms of longevity
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KevinMarks_ also how Google got rich, by realisng thta parsing HTML to create volatile DB's was a good idea
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brainTrain cool, so similar but different
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tantek brainTrain: not our experience at Technorati. XML quality was super low compared to HTML
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luxagraf KartikPrabhu: see I actually went that route for a while and found that, at least for doing geodata work as I like to do, the builtin mapping interface of geodjango is pretty much the best thing on the web for workingn with geodata
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brainTrain yeah my knowledge is new enough that there are some things I can't weigh in on in that respect
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brainTrain funny enough I have two ex technorati peeps workin with me :)
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brainTrain (although I guess they were a big company)
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kylewm geodjango is a great name
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tantek brainTrain: that's good introspection. often times folks "new" in an area don't realize it's a fundamental challeng on anything "long term" related ;)
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tantek Technorati was not a big company ever. max # emps was ~50 I think
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KartikPrabhu luxagraf: possibly, but when you want to store diff kinds of posts and responses and reply-contexts, having diff. database structure for each and then map between them is tedious
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brainTrain well I'd say what's nice about it is I don't have the biases I see with some people, meaning they're going to lean more on sunk costs etc, so I can be a bit more fresh. But yeah since I haven't struggled with a lot of this stuff I try to ingest as many opinions as I can from others. Then see what I think as a result.
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tantek.com edited /Events (+1) "move early may events to past" (view diff)
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tantek brainTrain: you should come on by to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-05-21-homebrew-website-club and we can chat some more about this in person too!
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brainTrain heh I wasn't there last time but I was the time before
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brainTrain "brian" but everyone in SF calls me brain
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tantek ah that's confusing
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brainTrain heh only for my mother :p
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brainTrain "It's so weird hearing everyone call you brain"
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KevinMarks_ he's not the messiah he's a naughty boy
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tantek better than pinky?
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brainTrain I brought my friend andy, he knows me as Brian, so I kinda flip
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aaronpk you assume people aren't resilient to the sunk cost fallacy
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brainTrain lol I'm thinking I need to solicit a tall friend for a pinky to my brain this halloween :p
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brainTrain aaron, I assume most people are susceptible to all biases
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brainTrain but that doesn't mean they don't have good reasons for their opinions.
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tantek heh
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brainTrain just means you've gotta work harder
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brainTrain my original educational goal was physics, and I read some pretty scathing papers against string theory, mostly citing sunk costs as the reason it's still around
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brainTrain but there are counters to that argument and the dance goes on!
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brainTrain :D
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luxagraf KartikPrabhu: not sure that I see what's left (that's good) about django without the ORM (which I agree is sometimes overkill)... why no something smaller like flask or just python and jinja2?
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KartikPrabhu luxagraf: yes I am shooting for that. I just picked up Django in the beginning when I didn't have such lofty indieweb goals ;)
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KevinMarks_ probably the best account of HTML vs XML is http://diveintohtml5.info/past.html
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brainTrain nice1
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brainTrain *!
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kbs my personal benchmark to come to grips with the longevity/usefulness of a particular data formats (plain text) has been to see what it takes to automatically generate epubs from some of the oldest gutenberg.org texts. Start from http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/1 and go upwards, looking at the plain text versions :)
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_: marked as TLRL! thanks
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tantek.com edited /events/2014-05-21-homebrew-website-club (+36) "/* RSVP */ in" (view diff)
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luxagraf KartikPrabhu: gotcha.
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KartikPrabhu particularly trying to do threaded conversations is hard when posts and replies are stored as different objects in the database
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tantek KartikPrabhu: you had me at "threaded conversations is hard "
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KartikPrabhu yeah it is and having database store with diff looking objects is not helping it
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KevinMarks_ threaded conversations is extra hard when people only see subsets of them
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KartikPrabhu of instance: I really want to thread the first two notes here http://kartikprabhu.com/notes
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KartikPrabhu but it is not possible if notes and replies are diff things...
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aaronpk crap. Instagram just switched to using Facebook's venue database instead of Foursquare
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KevinMarks_ ew
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KevinMarks_ they had their own
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aaronpk https://medium.com/five-hundred-words/dad4c3736409
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KevinMarks_ db of loc's assigned numerically in order of usage, eg http://pestagram.com/loc/10
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aaronpk it makes sense to switch to Foursquare's DB
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aaronpk it's very high quality, and facebook's is way worse
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aaronpk for example, now a photo taken at my house returns these as the top 4 venues: (notice the poor formatting of the addresses)
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aaronpk "Blitz Ladd, 2239 Se 11th Ave..." "Apex Brewpub PDX 11th and division..." "Ladd's Addition" and "Seaside Beach, Seaside Oregon"
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aaronpk for those of you not from around here, Seaside is an hour and a half drive from my house at the oregon coast
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KevinMarks_ foursquare has the best db of small businesses available
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kylewm snarfed: hey bridgy question, any guess why https://twitter.com/kyle_wm/status/465895424189292544 did not backfeed the favorite? (it found the favorite https://www.brid.gy/twitter/kyle_wm, and I looked at the datastore and saw that ppd had found the original)
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@kyle_wm First experience generating documentation with @ReadtheDocs. Totally effortless and damn it’s pretty http://mf2util.readthedocs.org/en/latest/ (twitter.com/_/status/465895424189292544)
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aaronpk https://twitter.com/parislemon/statuses/465555168851816448
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@parislemon The moment a decision is made for business/political reasons, the product starts to decay. Even if only a little bit. (twitter.com/_/status/465555168851816448)
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KevinMarks_ I spent a while tryign to explain this to people at salesforce
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snarfed kylewm: looking. ppd?
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kylewm posse-post-discovery
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snarfed aha thx
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aaronparecki.com created /ppd (+33) "redirect" (view diff)
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barnabywalters what is ppd?
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/ppd
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barnabywalters so Loqi doesn’t follow redirects yet :)
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aaronpk there's no dfn yet
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aaronparecki.com edited /posse-post-discovery (+41) "add dfn" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu there is that witchcraft again! :P
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kbs what is dfn
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aaronpk heh
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kbs loves chasing turtles :)
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kbs aaronpk++ for very cool loqi <-> wiki query
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Loqi aaronpk has 453 karma
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snarfed hmm, kylewm i'm not sure ppd actually did find it. i see this log line: "posse post discovery found no relationship for http://twitter.com/kyle_wm/status/465895424189292544"
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@kyle_wm First experience generating documentation with @ReadtheDocs. Totally effortless and damn it’s pretty http://mf2util.readthedocs.org/en/latest/ (twitter.com/_/status/465895424189292544)
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snarfed ahhhhhh http vs https
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snarfed bridgy used http://twitter.com for the tweet, and your rel-syndication link had https
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snarfed whee
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kylewm argh
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snarfed we've debated whether/when to treat http and https as equivalent here before
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snarfed but i'm fine with bridgy considering them equal, esp in this case
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kylewm doesn't http redirect to https?
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kylewm i thought we follow_redirects'ed them before storing
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snarfed this is the url of the tweet itself, not of links inside it
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com (+69) "/* gRegor Morrill */" (view diff)
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snarfed so no, we don't follow redirects for silo post urls
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kylewm isn't that what https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/blob/master/original_post_discovery.py#L91 does?
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snarfed ah, you added it to ppd! sorry, yes, it looks like you're right
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tantek what is a stub?
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/stub
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tantek aaronpk, yeah IG stopped using 4sq's venue db like a week or two ago
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tantek noticeable degradation in named location quality
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tantek so bad
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aaronparecki.com created /dfn (+281) "add page about dfn tag" (view diff)
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aaronpk yeah I think they slowly rolled it out
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aaronpk it's really bad
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kbs what is dfn
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/dfn
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kbs cool :)
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aaronparecki.com edited /dfn (-8) (view diff)
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kbs plays the straight man
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tantek aaronpk I've been thinking of working around it (from a long term dataquality perspective) using venue hashtags
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tantek in the "note" or "caption" or "first comment" of the "item" (checkin, photo, etc.)
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aaronpk yeah I was thinking about that too
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com (+27) (view diff)
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tantek or Twitter @-name or even domain name
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tantek e.g. @21stAmendment
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aaronpk seems somewhat difficult tho, especially with venues with multiple locations
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tantek or at 21st-amendment.com/
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gregorlove.com created /gRegor` (+33) "redirect" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk, disambig with intersection (x at y)
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tantek using just street names
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tantek or even just "on x" (street name)
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tantek it does make me want to explicitly venue-tag my IG photos less since they're likely to screw up the data as compared to the "raw" latlong
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com (-153) "/* Braindump */" (view diff)
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@helloanselm Google (and others) have most of my emails because they have yours. http://mako.cc/copyrighteous/google-has-most-of-my-email-because-it-has-all-of-yours #privacy #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/465976526279028736)
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KevinMarks_ http://instagram.com/developer/endpoints/locations/
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KevinMarks_ tantek: looks like you're recreating the dodgeball location syntax
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@ericdisegno The Peril of Knowledge Everywhere – @nytimes #ownyourdata http://www.nytimes.com (twitter.com/_/status/465979471711830016)
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Jeena Wanna see a tough photo? ;) https://jeena.net/photos/9
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kbs heh. (and looks like a nice peaceful place. bit like part of santa cruz almont.)
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kbs *almost
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Jeena hehe, yeah it was really nice there http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e4575.html
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tantek.com edited /Instagram (+651) "dfn, quick blurb about endpoints/locations, criticism section with downtime and Switch from Foursquare to Facebook venues" (view diff)
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kbs aah. looks like a beautiful place indeed.
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tantek invites Jeena and kbs to #indiechat ;)
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kbs :)
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tantek (it's a real thing ;) )
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tommorris starts hacking on some new stuff for Ferocity
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tommorris more specifically: code to combine friends profiles from existing social networks like Twitter and Facebook, building up a social graph to allow login to see private posts
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aaronpk oooo
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kylewm awesome, are you planning to allow direct login via twitter/facebook
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tommorris yep. and maybe a few other social networks too
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tommorris also, you know, twitter has people’s website URLs. silo login is not obligatory.
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tommorris actually, Facebook is going to be difficult thanks to the API changes
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aaronpk hm this gives me an idea
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aaronpk for upgrading people from silo login to indie login
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aaronpk let people sign in with a silo account, and if it already points to their site, show them how to add the rel=me tag and show them the benefit
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tantek checks to see if /Ferocity has an "Itches" section.
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tommorris amusingly, the little script I’m using had a bug where it would crash if you didn’t have a website set in Twitter. it got a LONG way down the list before it hit a friend who didn’t have one set
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tantek aaronpk - the other thing I've seen people doing in the wild WRT location hasthtagging is #streetaddress
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tantek e.g. #123Mainst.
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kylewm tommorris: out of curiosity, how did you come to write mf2py with ferocity being in ruby
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snarfed hey KartikPrabhu, just fyi, looks like your webmention handler doesn't support either fragments or fragmentions in target urls. https://www.brid.gy/twitter/kartik_prabhu#responses
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: which one are you referring to?
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tommorris kylewm: someone asked for mf2py in here, so I just started writing it. ;)
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: the two failed ones at the top
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tommorris kylewm: I do Python for work these days but Ruby is my first love.
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: they are for the indiewebcamp wiki not my site
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: oh, duh, right. sorry!
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KartikPrabhu ;)
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snarfed aaronpk ^^ then, but obviously low priority
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aaronpk what
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: I think my handler does account for fragmentions/fragments... I'll have a test post out soon...
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aaronpk if the wiki isn't accepting them, that means webmention.io isn't accepting them, and that's bad obviously
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: https://www.brid.gy/twitter/kartik_prabhu#responses failed webmentions due to fragmentions
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@t speaking on #indieweb at Personal Democracy Forum #pdf14 NYC 2014-06-05! http://personaldemocracy.com/product/personal-democracy-forum-2014-registration Code: SPEAKER3DE7CE1F (ttk.me t4W21) (twitter.com/_/status/465990243314053120)
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tantek welcome back andicascadesf!
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andicascadesf thanks Tantek!
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andicascadesf I’d like to share an idea with you.
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tantek share ahead
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andicascadesf What do you think of making the 5:30-6:30 on 5/21 “Library Hours”
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andicascadesf which means, focus on writing, quiet, non-interactive.
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tantek don't really have much of a library ;)
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tantek how about calling it what it is? "Blogging hour" ?
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tantek or did you mean writing beyond just blogging?
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@kevinmarks RT @t: speaking on #indieweb at Personal Democracy Forum #pdf14 NYC 2014-06-05! http://personaldemocracy.com/product/personal-democracy-forum-2014-registration Code: SPEAKER3DE7CE1F (ttk.me t4W21) (twitter.com/_/status/465991454456684544)
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andicascadesf I mean making sure that people are in work mode, vs. people asking for feedback and advice.
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andicascadesf silent work area to focus on writing in your blog.
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tantek I like the idea of a "writing hour"
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andicascadesf Me too!
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KevinMarks_ me three
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andicascadesf I’ve thrown a “Work on your portfolio” day in the past
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tantek what do other folks thing for Homebrew Website Club in 9 days?
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andicascadesf and while it’s good to get feedback, sometimes people are so chatty, we can’t get anything done.
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KevinMarks_ I have too many half-written things
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tantek if we just use 17:30-18:30 as "Writing Hour" before the HWC meetup?
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aaronpk i like the idea
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aaronpk there's an esri event I'll be at on 5/21 so I won't be able to host
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tantek andicascadesf: yeah I like "writing hour" better than "… portfoilio..."
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aaronpk hopefully dietrich_ is around
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tantek aaronpk - maybe make a note in the event page?
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andicascadesf so I was thinking of making it “library hours” so people would know not to make a lot of noise.
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aaronpk I think "writing hour" also conveys that
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tantek well it is only *one* hour so… hour vs. hours ;)
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andicascadesf or focus hour
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GWG Back
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andicascadesf something along the lines of everyone should be quiet haha
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KevinMarks_ Talking to my son, he uses libraries as a social signal that he's writing
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KevinMarks_ as all the reading material is online anyway
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tantek I think "writing" implies some degree of focus and "don't bug me" :)
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GWG tantek: Responding to what you said earlier...I may have to remember how to maintain a github respository now too.
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tantek I think "writing hour" will work well @MozSF since we have some small side-rooms that people can use to escape to if they *really* want to run away
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tantek KevinMarks_: can you make it ~17:30 then?
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KevinMarks_ close enough, there's a fast train that gets in at 17:24
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tantek great
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KevinMarks_ or a slow one at 17:03
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GWG KevinMarks: Do they actually call it the 'slow train'?
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KevinMarks_ offical terms are "100 Local 200 Limited-stop 300 Baby Bullet"
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KevinMarks_ the 100's take ~90 mins, 200's 68-84 mins, 300s 60 mins
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dietrich_ aaronpk: yo
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aaronpk hey
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GWG KevinMarks, this is what, CalTrain?
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KevinMarks_ yes. san jose to SF
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andicascadesf I’m back
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KevinMarks_ andi, you can be the librarian and shush us all
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andicascadesf haha no thanks
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andicascadesf I want to focus!
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GWG KevinMarks: I'd volunteer. But I'm not there. Although I do have to comment on the stereotype.
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andicascadesf whenever I organize “work on your own site” events, everyone always asks me for feedback and it’s really tough to focus.
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tantek.com edited /events/2014-05-21-homebrew-website-club (+169) "add writing hour" (view diff)
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aaronpk dietrich_: will you be around on 5/21?
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andicascadesf Absolutely love helping and mentoring, but wanted to make sure everyone knows that it’s focus time.
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tantek andicascadesf: yeah "the work on …" tends to be interactive
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tantek thus "writing" makes more sense to help focus on quiet work
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andicascadesf Also, I will be happy to manage the blog writing hours.
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tantek andicascadesf: thought you said you didn't want to shush us all?
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tantek that's all the "managing" that should be needed
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tantek ;)
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andicascadesf hahaha, okay!
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andicascadesf I meant promoting
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andicascadesf but not sure how much you guys want me to promote it
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andicascadesf :P
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andicascadesf could get too big
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tantek andicascadesf: haha go ahead and try
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tantek everyone here just promotes stuff as they see fit
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tantek no one asks nor demands nor makes any kind of big (or little) deal about it
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andicascadesf sure
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tantek so if it inspires you, go for it!
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andicascadesf I was considering adding it to cascade sf
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tantek (general rule around these parts, scratch your own itches and all that ;) )
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tantek you can link to it from whatever sites you want
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andicascadesf but saying that it is an IndieWebCamp event
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tantek but first RSVP yourself
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dietrich_ aaronpk: hm, i will be, but there's an event at mozpdx that night already
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tantek andicascadesf, KevinMarks_ add yourself: http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-05-21-homebrew-website-club#RSVP
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tantek s/yourself/yourselves
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Loqi tantek meant to say: andicascadesf, KevinMarks_ add yourselves: http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-05-21-homebrew-website-club#RSVP
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andicascadesf I think I have to re-register my openID
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tantek andicascadesf: you mean the URL being at indiewebcamp.com doesn't make it obvious that it's an indiewebcamp event? ;)
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tantek andicascadesf: haha no OpenID - that's so 3 years ago ;)
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andicascadesf LOL
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andicascadesf Thank God
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aaronpk good thing your openid is just your domain name
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tantek it does require you to do something MUCH HARDER
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KevinMarks_ indieauth is my openID now
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tantek you have to decide which domain name you want to use ;)
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tantek samesies
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tantek though it didn't work to login to the IIW wiki :(
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andicascadesf andigalpern.com
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tantek yay!
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Loqi does a happy dance!
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aaronpk yeah that was confusing. I think there's some subset of OpenID that I didn't implement. it also fails on a couple other sites
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tantek aaronpk, good things there's a test suite and validator for OpenID so you can quickly figure out what subset you didn't implement. ;)
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tantek s/things/thing
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Loqi tantek meant to say: aaronpk, good thing there's a test suite and validator for OpenID so you can quickly figure out what subset you didn't implement. ;)
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aaronpk what where?
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kylewm sounded like sarcasm?
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kevinmarks.com edited /events/2014-05-21-homebrew-website-club (+62) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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tantek kylewm++
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Loqi kylewm has 11 karma
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aaronpk ...oh
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KevinMarks_ XRI--
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Loqi XRI has -1 karma
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tantek XDI--
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Loqi dude
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tantek what?
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aaronpk lol
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kylewm XD the emoticon
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kylewm that's my guess?
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tantek andicascadesf: what's your favorite silo to auth with?
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andicascadesf no idea
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andicascadesf haha
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aaronpk twitter? github? google+?
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www.andigalpern.com edited /events/2014-05-21-homebrew-website-club (+62) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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aaronpk yay!
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Loqi :D
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tantek.com edited /Instagram (+553) "/* Switch from Foursquare to Facebook venues */ citations" (view diff)
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andicascadesf ooh btw
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andicascadesf Tantek, It would be cool if you could find the person who manages the Mozilla SF social media and ask them to add the event “Indie Web Camp” onto Foursquare so people could check into the events.
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tantek what does "manages the Mozilla SF social media" mean?
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aaronpk whoever manages the foursquare venue
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tantek did create @MozSF
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tantek I don't think anyone manages the 4sq venue
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aaronpk ooh you should claim it!
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andicascadesf ah, so maybe you can claim it.
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andicascadesf yes
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andicascadesf It just makes the event appear more official.
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tantek interesting
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KevinMarks_ you can then check into the event directly in foursquare
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aaronpk ah I didn't get a screenshot
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andicascadesf KevinMarks, exactly.
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tantek andicascadesf: could you add a note about how to claim a 4sq venue here? http://indiewebcamp.com/Foursquare
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KevinMarks_ like the movie showing in the cinema
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aaronpk but yeah it makes the event appear with a little icon like when you go to a movie theater and it shows what movies are playing
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andicascadesf Well you check into the location and then the event.
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andicascadesf Aaronpk yes!
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aaronpk screenshot incoming
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tantek aaronpk to http://indiewebcamp.com/Foursquare ?
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andicascadesf Looking up instructions right now
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KevinMarks_ my twitter mentions are swamped by that bladerunner theory tweet
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andicascadesf http://www.slideshare.net/OkimoClinic/how-to-create-an-event-on-foursquare
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tantek.com edited /Foursquare (+673) "stub event support, venue claiming" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:foursquare-event-screenshot.png]]""
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aaronparecki.com edited /Foursquare (+48) "add screenshot of a checkin with an event" (view diff)
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aaronpk there you go
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tantek.com edited /Foursquare (+116) "/* Event support */ result of doing so" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk - nice!
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andicascadesf Okay so I figured out how to add an event
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andicascadesf Tantek, someone from Mozilla (could be you) has to go to business.foursquare.com
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andicascadesf and claim Mozilla SF as a venue you or they manage
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aaronpk they'll either mail you a postcard, or you can pay $1 with a credit card to "verify" it
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KevinMarks_ I claimed my house
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andicascadesf It says $20 for me.
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aaronpk but I'm pretty sure that means I could claim MozSF if I wanted to pay $1
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KevinMarks_ but I haven't tried making events here
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aaronpk whoa interesting, I wonder if it's different for different cities
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andicascadesf Add a debit or credit card to your account below. We’ll charge your card a one-time-only $20 fee to verify that you’re the owner.
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tantek nice business model
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aaronpk I paid $1 to claim EsriPDX so I could move the venue without waiting for moderator approval
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andicascadesf They have increased the price. lol
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aaronpk that was like two weeks ago
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tantek maybe SF venues are more valuable?
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tantek like different neighborhoods in Monopoly
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andicascadesf possibly, but I am attempting to verify “Panda Pad” which is my home.
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andicascadesf haha
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andicascadesf SF = Boardwalk
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aaronpk I want to try to claim MozPDX but that might not be a good idea
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andicascadesf I was thinking of attempting to claim Twitter, but not sure if that is a good idea either hahaha
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aaronpk oh yeah and they first call you and you have to record yourself saying who you are, but that is apparently not verified, just archived
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KevinMarks_ the point of charging you $1 is that then you're verified to buy ads
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andicascadesf (our next event is there)
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andicascadesf KevinMarks - it’s $20.00 for SF
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tantek wonders if he can setup a one-time-use google voice number that plays back a pre-recorded message
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tantek.com edited /Foursquare (+233) "/* Venue claiming */ in short process documentation hearsay from IRC ;)" (view diff)
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andicascadesf Scamming the system
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andicascadesf Okay guys! I’m heading out.
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tantek I kind of want to setup a phone-tree for all the people and companies who ask me for a phone number for any reason
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andicascadesf TTYL!
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tantek TTFN!
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tantek.com edited /Foursquare (+2) "/* Venue claiming */ claim URL" (view diff)
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andicascadesf Wait I actually have one more question.
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andicascadesf KevinMarks, do you attend a lot of events / meetups in the Silicon Valley area?
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KevinMarks_ so if you get Mozilla, Google SF and Salesforce, can you build a house on them?
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KevinMarks_ a fair few, though often more in SF
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KevinMarks_ if foursquare is Monopoly, I own the railways
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andicascadesf Are you attending any events down there in the near future?
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KevinMarks_ Percussion concert at my son's school tomorrow
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andicascadesf haha
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pdurbin KevinMarks_: which are the "utilities"? :)
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KevinMarks_ I would have gone to the bitcoin meetup at 500 startups tomorrow otherwise
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tantek I'm sure there are some sketchy domain name registrars that offer "Free Parking"
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andicascadesf hahaha
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andicascadesf Go to Jail
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KevinMarks_ there's https://foursquare.com/v/monopoly-in-the-park/4b896293f964a520123132e3 in SJ
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tantek KevinMarks_: but has anyone claimed it?