#indiewebcamp 2014-10-20

2014-10-20 UTC
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butter
[ KartikPra(:#indiewebcamp)] i like the idea of GET request to micropub endpoint giving an idea of the capabilities of the endpoint <- OPTIONS
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KevinMarks_
should it return a from you can embed into yours?
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KevinMarks_
s/from/form/
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Loqi
KevinMarks_ meant to say: should it return a form you can embed into yours?
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kylewm
I have discovered a new and exciting indieauth error
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kylewm
HTTP/1.1 1406 Unknown Reason-Phrase
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kylewm
Status: 1406 Unknown Reason-Phrase
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butter
1406? :)
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kylewm
I didn't even know they went up that high :P
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kylewm
hi ben_thatmust
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kylewm
ben_thatmust: are you bored? do you want to help me test a micropub thing? O:)
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kylewm
ben_thatmust: so I added micropub-based login to my site; and after you log in, it will query your micropub endpoint with micropub?q=actions
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kylewm
and expects to get back a list of action handlers like reply=http://example.com/reply?url={url}&repost=http://example.com/repost?url={url}
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kylewm
the goal being to fill in the Reply Repost Like links on my site with your endpoints rather than twitter
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kylewm
ben_thatmust: if you don't want to mess with your code, just testing that you can log in would be helpful
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ben_thatmust
oh that should be no problem
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ben_thatmust
as in taht would be the only thing in the body?
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kylewm
yep, just like q=syndicate-to
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@kevinmarks
@ccarfi you use the "reply to a site" field and it sends a webmention see http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention
(twitter.com/_/status/524004617751760896)
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ben_thatmust
i don't think thats a good format though
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kylewm
mm, yeah that is a problem huh
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kylewm
that you need to url-escape each entry
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ben_thatmust
could always json format it
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kylewm
do you implement q=syndicate-to?
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kylewm
I was trying to follow that as my model
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ben_thatmust
actually i have a problem with the format of syndicate to
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ben_thatmust
i implement it, but I also do it another way
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ben_thatmust
i send both syndicate-to[]=link1&syndicate-to=link2&syndicate-to=link1,link2
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ben_thatmust
since ',' is a legal URL character
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ben_thatmust
what about that
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kylewm
yeah, I'm in the [] camp
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ben_thatmust
i send both, for support
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ben_thatmust
i was hacking in all the functionality to just submit without the [], but it got pretty messy
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kylewm
yeah, it seems like the [] is artificial, but useful for being parseable by everyone
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kylewm
the json way is fine, but nothing else in micropub uses json
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kylewm
I don't want to be the first :P
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ben_thatmust
so syndicate-to=link1&syndicate-to=link2. by default php overwrites, but you can process yourself. Problem being as soon as you use encoding types it doesn't let you do that
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ben_thatmust
which is rather important for image submits
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ben_thatmust
it makes sense, highly portable, and its highly likely this will be parsed by javascript
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kylewm
just for testing, can you make q=actions return a stringmore like like=like%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fben.thatmustbe.me%2Fnew%3Ftype%3Dlike%26like%3D%7Burl%7D&reply=https%3A%2F%2Fben.thatmustbe.me%2Fnew%3Freply_to%3D%7Burl%7D
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kylewm
should have been like=https%3A%2F%2Fben.thatmustbe.me%2Fnew%3Ftype%3Dlike%26like%3D%7Burl%7D&reply=https%3A%2F%2Fben.thatmustbe.me%2Fnew%3Freply_to%3D%7Burl%7D
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kylewm
also, I don't think this is likely to be parsed yb JavaScript -- since it requires a micropub token to query it, it almost has to be called from the server side
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ben_thatmust
hows that?
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ben_thatmust
oh, wait, you didn't want the &
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ben_thatmust
there ya go
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ben_thatmust
kylewm, try now
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kylewm
hrm much closer, looks the ='s are being escaped now
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ben_thatmust
oh duh, sorry, fixed
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kylewm
awesome, ok, are you able to log into my site?
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ben_thatmust
Internal Server Error if i don't put http://
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kylewm
oh good to know
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kylewm
it looks like it worked!!
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kylewm
do reply links send you to your site?
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ben_thatmust
kylewm++ YES
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Loqi
kylewm has 72 karma
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kylewm
yayay!
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kylewm
you are awesome for testing!
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kylewm
ben_thatmustbeme++
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Loqi
ben_thatmustbeme has 29 karma
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ben_thatmust
very cool method
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ben_thatmust
i'd still recommend json
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ben_thatmust
not quite inline yet, but opening a new window on it would certainly work
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ben_thatmust
i know, i basically copied my settings for it out of that
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kylewm
ya, me too
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kylewm
actually I'd be up for supporting either one depending on the content type
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ben_thatmust
indie-config feels too hacky, relying on custom protocol handler, I like the idea of it polling your own site to find the URL to load this way
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ben_thatmust
ideally it would be awesome, but this will work much better cross devices, no need to register protocol, also allows you to use multiple clients for different things really, you can have it return a URL for whatever you want to use
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ben_thatmust
just need to work out the JS for popups
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kylewm
i wish there were some way to figure out indie-cofnig without the config step
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kylewm
if indie+reply is registered, do that
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ben_thatmust
most are blocked, but twitter does it smoothly
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ben_thatmust
but JS doesn't do that, its a security issue
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kylewm
ohh yeah, popup is a good idea
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kylewm
how about, if indie+reply isn't registered, just popup a hella confusing error message
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kylewm
i bet js can do that
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kylewm
"Firefox doesn't know how to open this address, because one of the following protocols (indie+reply) isn't associated with any program or is not allowed in this context."
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kylewm
sorry, being silly now
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ben_thatmust
no, it doesn't work that way
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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kylewm
ben_thatmust: what doesn't work that way? I just did it
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kylewm
it's just like having an aim: URL but no AIM client registered
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ben_thatmust
oh, sorry, i misread that
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ben_thatmust
aim: doesn't work on android anymore
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ben_thatmust
nor does fb-messenger:
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ben_thatmust
android is moving all to the Intents bit, but as far as i know, URLs can't launch intents
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kylewm
ah yeah, i need to try obra's shim for launching a URL via an intent (rather than the other way around)
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kylewm
I'm gonna go eat dinner, thanks so much for your help! think I'll have to defer to aaronpk on the JSON/urlencode issue
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ben_thatmust
okay, i'm going to look in to the JS to get a nice popup like this working
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tantek
kylewm - lol for asking the same question as me
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tantek
re: benwerd and POSSE person-tagging
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ben_thatmust
NICE, i got the JS popup from twitter working
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ben_thatmust
!tell kylewm I got the popup bit working from twitter. if implement ?q=json_actions then log in to my site, the reply links on the main page work as popups
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk
looks like I have some catching up to do
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ben_thatmust
may have worked out some in-line reply bits
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ben_thatmust
exactly as twitter
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ben_thatmust
well, the pop-up version anyway
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ben_thatmust
twitter has the JS published on how to make it work, a quick change and it pops out links in indie-action tags https://github.com/dissolve/postly/blob/master/blog/view/javascript/intents.js
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obra
bleh. I'd really love to get my old blog content into my known instance.
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aaronpk
What's all that JavaScript for?
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ben_thatmust
popup window for UI
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ben_thatmust_
in Boston we were looking at how Twitter did their interface. that will do the same
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KartikPrabhu__
ben_thatmust_ remember progressive enhancement if you can :P
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@obensource
@fritzy more reason to start #indieweb-ing my data pushing.
(twitter.com/_/status/524045988915597313)
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KevinMarks
Could the micropub endpoint return an HTML5 form (or several forms) with mf2 markup on the submit urls?
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KartikPrabhu__
I have been thinking about something similar for my posting interface
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KartikPrabhu__
I want to have a posting interface inline with the rest of the page, but does not seem possible with current micropub
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aaronpk
Why not? Micropub only says what the post request should look like
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ben_thatmust_
the problem we found with that was hitting cross site security
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aaronpk
But if you do a straight up post request you don't have that problem
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aaronpk
KevinMarks I bet we could have it return an HTML form that also is marked up with microformats so that there's also a JSON version
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aaronpk
<form action="your reply endpoint" method="get" class="u-reply-endpoint"> or something
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KartikPrabhu__
aaronpk: I was thinking along the lines of how G+ post interface appears right where you click in the stream
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aaronpk
On someone else's site?
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KartikPrabhu__
no on G+ itself. But with micropub's returning form elements that could be made to work inline on your own site and probably on someone elses
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aaronpk
✈️ back later
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KartikPrabhu__
back to watching Cowboy Bebop
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ben_thatmust_
sleep for me. I think the pop-up is the right way about it honestly. presents your own view from your own client.
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ben_thatmust_
can think it through more tomorrow. gnight all
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KevinMarks
Hm. I wonder if you could iframe it and have it mf2 parseable as an option? Is that too much overloading?
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KartikPrabhu__
shouldn't that be left to the client?
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KartikPrabhu__
maybe use *-mp-* as micropub specific mf2 things for forms?
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KartikPrabhu__
like h-mp-form on the main form element and then everything inside it can be treated as a micropub form
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kylewm
KevinMarks: I'm not understanding what the mf2 on the form is for?
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Loqi
kylewm: ben_thatmust left you a message 1 hour, 9 minutes ago: I got the popup bit working from twitter. if implement ?q=json_actions then log in to my site, the reply links on the main page work as popups
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KevinMarks
Instead of returning magic json to a get, return a form to post the micropub marked up with mf2 so you can use it for the extra data you need
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kylewm
so, marked up with micropub as in <input name="h" value="entry"/> ?
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kylewm
s/micropub/microformats2
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Loqi
kylewm meant to say: so, marked up with microformats2 as in <input name="h" value="entry"/> ?
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kylewm
returning a micropub form is a really interesting idea
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KevinMarks
Given that you can post to micropub with a form, you'd just need to add the token?
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thierrymarianne
What is karma?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "karma" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=karma
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@techlifeweb
Thought I'd try installing @withknown on my own domain. #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/524075224338137088)
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thierry.marianne.io
edited /IRC_People (+5) "/* Updated IRC user name of tmar.io */"
(view diff)
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cweiske.de
edited /webactions (+19) "/* See Also */"
(view diff)
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@dundeemakespace
We only have 5 tickets remaining for our web workshop tomorrow. Don't forget to get yours if you want to come along https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/web-workshop-001-the-indieweb-tickets-13600109293
(twitter.com/_/status/524122697786462208)
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jonnybarnes
hey everyone
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@Japh
@pwcc It kind of was, yeah. Good one! Like… Twitter for the #IndieWeb? ;)
(twitter.com/_/status/524137030389755904)
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ben_thatmust
The problem with returning a form for the site to post to is that you have to trust the site you are posting on. You need to give post access to the site, which we are trying to avoid
eschnou, fiatjaf, willowbl00, elima, EOGreer, paulfitz, loic_m, gr0k, pfefferle_, pfefferle, tantek, LauraJ, chalettu, j12t, verdi, mlncn-agaric, glennjones, gRegor` and alexhartley joined the channel
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ben_thatmustbeme
damn, caught up in work, but once i am able to, these reply and other such in-line actions should work excellently
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tantek
very cool ben_thatmustbeme - are you using the indie-config method or micropub or … ?
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ben_thatmustbeme
kylewm's micropub query bit
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ben_thatmustbeme
micropub endpoint query returns a json of all actions and URLs
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ben_thatmustbeme
i'm been calling it mp-config in my git commits thus far
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ben_thatmustbeme
quiet morning
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@techlifeweb
Thought links formatted with "u-like-of" would show up on my @withknown site as stars instead of comments. #indieweb http://known.techlifeweb.com/2014/i-thought-links-formatted-with-u-like-of-would-have-shown-up
(twitter.com/_/status/524239542191013888)
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gRegor`
G'day, indieweb
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ben_thatmustbeme
just pushed my code live for the ability to reply / edit / delete so long as your MP endpoint supports those
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ben_thatmustbeme
and offers them up with ?q=json_actions
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kylewm
ben_thatmustbeme: I just logged in anew and don't see reply, etc. links
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@nobantu
One Week Until #IIW XIX There is still time to Reg: http:/// One Day Tickets now available! #UMA #VRM #CRM #IoT #IndieWeb
(twitter.com/_/status/524242859277701120)
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kylewm
ben_thatmustbeme: ah, your request to q?json_actions did not have an Authorization: Bearer XXXX header
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ben_thatmustbeme
kylewm, I don't get a token, i don't see the need
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ben_thatmustbeme
the config is something I'd want to be easily accessible
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ben_thatmustbeme
what would be next is to be able to set those via MP
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ben_thatmustbeme
and that would require privileged access, thus when I go to Quill, i could set that as my NEW action, and maybe my own site for edit/delete, etc
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kylewm
ben_thatmustbeme: yeah, I don't see the need to hide them either; I was just following the q=syndicate-to pattern again ... the next hting i want to do is add a "Profile" editor so that when you are logged in you can manually edit your own access points
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kylewm
(and that would work fine with plain old indieauth, no micropub required)
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ben_thatmustbeme
yes. i like that too, just want to get rid of "manually edit" if possible
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ben_thatmustbeme
we should start documenting all this on the wiki
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Loqi
I agree
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@the_Zieger
@sir_pepe hm ok. Dann ist ja alles offen. Kann meine Eindrücke zur #bono14 bieten also zb #indieweb und etc. @derSchepp @workingdraft
(twitter.com/_/status/524249276743184384)
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kylewm
that's where i put it so far
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kylewm
but maybe it should be under /indie-config or /webactions
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ben_thatmustbeme
i've been calling it mp-config
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kylewm
i like mp-config
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ben_thatmustbeme
i'm still going to fight you on the json format for it bit
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tantek
I like that we're experimenting with multiple approaches
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tantek
kylewm: up for HWC this Wednesday in SF?
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tantek
what is mp-config?
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ben_thatmustbeme
i'd love for others to see this in action and help brainstorm on it
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "mp-config" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=mp-config
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kylewm
tantek: yes!
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tantek
guess I better get a room then
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kylewm
ben_thatmustbeme: I'm happy to support either format via Content-Type header
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kylewm
s/either/both
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Loqi
kylewm meant to say: ben_thatmustbeme: I'm happy to support both format via Content-Type header
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ben.thatmustbe.me
created /mp-config (+164) "stub"
(view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme
what is mp-config?
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Loqi
mp-config is a method of using a query to a micropub endpoint to allow you indie website to discover user support for webactions http://indiewebcamp.com/mp-config
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tantek
room reserved for HWC SF this week. We are a go for 1st floor @MozSF
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ben_thatmustbeme
kylewm, sounds good, i'll try to implement that on the train home today
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tantek
Portland (aaronpk dietrich) and Minneapolis - what's up for HWC this week for you guys?
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tantek
kylewm: could you post an indie event for HWC SF on your Known for this week? and POSSE copy on FB? http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club#URLs
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tantek
or hey - maybe benwerd can too!
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dietrich
tantek: i can't join or host. too much stuffs going on :/
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tantek
!tell aaronpk, bret, caseorganic aaron, bret, case (the ABC's of IndieWeb PDX ;) ) could one or more of you pick a space to host HWC this week 2014-10-22 in PDX and add to wiki? http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club#Where Thanks much!
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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marginalventures
I thank you all for providing me a new blog platform that I'm interested in exploring. I wanted to give one bit of feedback about the installer
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marginalventures
it didn't tell me that I didn't have mysql installed
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marginalventures
otherwise it's working for me so far
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marginalventures
- withknown that is
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tantek
marginalventures: interesting! what did you expect it to do?
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Loqi
Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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indie-visitor
nick tgbrun
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marginalventures
oh I just expected the first step of the getting started wizard thing that told me I was missing mod_rewrite and such to let me know I was missing mysql
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obra
marginalventures: indeed. It could do a better job of checking mysql. If you're up for it, could you report that here:https://github.com/idno/idno/issues/new
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KartikPrabhu__1
indie-visitor: use /nick with the slah
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marginalventures
Other than that the install was straight forward. I will indeed report it thanks
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tantek
thanks marginalventures - that's good feedback. and thanks in advance for reporting it on github issues!
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obra
awesome.
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kylewm
why does PHP escape /'s in its JSON output? is that something I need to worry about?
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kylewm
ben_thatmustbeme: sorry that was a question for you ^
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KartikPrabhu__1
/nick KartikPrabhu_
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KartikPrabhu__1
boooo
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gRegor`
The escapes are htmlspecialchars() I believe, not json_decode()
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gRegor`
You mean like the output of pin13.net, kylewm?
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kylewm
gRegor`: yes, though I am referring specifically to https://ben.thatmustbe.me/micropub?q=json_actions
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gRegor`
I was wrong. I guess it is json_encode() doing it
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gRegor`
parsing it should not be a problem, though.
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gRegor`
No problems dropping it into jsoneditoronline.org
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gRegor`
is too lazy to try it in PHP right now :)
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gRegor`
KartikPrabhu__ still laptopless?
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gRegor`
And related: on for HWC this Wednesday?
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kylewm
oh my bad, Python's json module handles those \'s just fine
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kylewm
sorry for the false alarm
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KartikPrabhu__1
gregor`: yes. but the new one is supposed to arrive today
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kylewm
KevinMarks: is it ok for me to hijack your Known for another HWC event?
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KevinMarks
Sure, go for it
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gRegor`
I think every JSON module *should* handle them
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kylewm.com
edited /events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club (+82) "/* URLs */ add SF URLs"
(view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme
kylewm, its an optional thing that many leave as default. prevents ever hitting </ inside a string
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kylewm
augh, what have I done
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kylewm
I created three separate facebook events
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tantek
kylewm: how did you do that?!?
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kylewm
can you delete comments in Knownw?
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kylewm
Facebook's fault!!
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kylewm
I clicked "Create", it turned grey, nothing happened, then enabled again
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kylewm
so I kept clicking...
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ben_thatmustbeme
kylewm is breaking things?
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tantek
lol! please add to /Facebook#Issues (or #Criticism) - as that's a real UI issue we should document as something to avoid in our own UIs.
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KevinMarks
There should be a delete comment link next to each one for you
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tantek
hey ben_thatmustbeme since you also got an indie /comms UI working on your site, have you looked into the JS that people (e.g. Tim at IWC Cambridge, lots of other sites) seem to use for the animated "Tap here to Add to Homescreen" on first load effect?
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tantek
I tried to get it to work but couldn't, but couldn't figure out if that was due to its first load logic failing because I'd already been working on the page or not
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tantek
this is the script that Tim and others all seem to use: http://cubiq.org/add-to-home-screen
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tantek
I'd also like to work on editing the microcopy of its UI to be more indieweb person centric rather than assuming "web app"
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tantek
e.g. instead of "To add this web app to the home screen:"
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ben_thatmustbeme
i have not yet, but i will look in to it
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tantek
we could put "To add me to your home screen:"
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tantek
this is perhaps related to /icon and /homepage functionality
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tantek
since you do first need to support /icon on your home page
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tantek
and then it makes sense for all of us to have a script like this on our /homepage to start encouraging a people-centric UI per: http://tantek.com/2013/338/b1/people-focused-mobile-communication-experience#what-if-people
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek, its commented out on your page, but its missing the actual function call it looks like
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ben_thatmustbeme
it looks like the script should be super simple
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kylewm.com
edited /Facebook (+550) "/* Duplicate Events Created without Confirmation */"
(view diff)
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tantek
there's an "actual function call"? I couldn't figure it out from the docs nor from Tim's example
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tantek
what is comms?
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Loqi
communication in the context of the indieweb refers to using your personal website as a starting point and potentially way for people to communicate with you http://indiewebcamp.com/comms
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tantek
this? addToHomescreen({ detectHomescreen: true });
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ben_thatmustbeme
yeah, the code didn't kick back any errors on me
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ben_thatmustbeme
although i didn't put in the detectHomescreen bit
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tantek
ok just updated my contact.html
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek, should be getting an e-mail soon
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tantek
it did? I still can't verify on my own ipod
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ben_thatmustbeme
even if you clear cache / delete cookies
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ben_thatmustbeme
it didn't come up when i clicked the button from home screen, only when I typed into a URL
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tantek
I wish it had a debug mode
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ben_thatmustbeme
i texted (well mms to emailed) you a screen shot
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tantek
this is too difficult to get right / verify :(
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tantek
which is kind of a fundamental barrier to having others get it working too
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tantek
(just sharing my frustrations in the hopes we can come up with a better way to test this)
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: got it! whoa - that's cool that it works on Android too!
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tantek
now to start changing the microcopy (which is *why* we need a test mode)
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ben_thatmustbeme
it looks to just add #ath to the URL, but i cannot get it to forcably appear
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ben_thatmustbeme
i'd imagine if i clear my full browser history it will work
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tantek
that's kind of a pain
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tantek
there should be a ?showath=1 or something
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tantek
or heck, #showath
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tantek
so it doesn't much up serverside caching etc.
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ben_thatmustbeme
there is a debug:true option you should be able to add, still isn't working on non-mobile
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tantek
in the function call?
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tantek
a-ha: addToHomescreen.removeSession()
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ben_thatmustbeme
cannot get it to appear in desktop ever
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ben_thatmustbeme
well i got it to appear on my page, but it was not loading well at all
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tantek
can you try reloading mine?
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tantek
and see if the text changes to "Add me to your home screen ..."
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tantek
hmm - the android version now shows up in Firefox. and when Safari pretends to be iOS7 iPod - that shows up too
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tantek
I used this test version:
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tantek
var addtohome = addToHomescreen({
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tantek
autostart: false,
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tantek
debug: true
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tantek
addtohome.show();
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ben_thatmustbeme
its not showing up on android on reload
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KevinMarks__
It worked on chrome android
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ben_thatmustbeme
i'm on chrome android.
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ben_thatmustbeme
its very finnicky it seems
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neuro`
Good evening
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tantek
it tries very hard to not show up twice
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KevinMarks__
Getting chrome instructions on ff android
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tantek
my guess is that it doesn't do chrome vs ff detection on android
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tantek
but perhaps that can be improved
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tantek
I can ask folks at work to try it on their FxOS devices and get suggestions :)
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tantek
ok, "release" version deployed with comments left in the source (commented out "debug" version too)
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tantek
now trying Clear History and Clear Cookies and Data to see if that helps on my iPod iOS7
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tantek
force quit Safari Mobile via the multitasking UI
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tantek
typed in my contact URL - no sign of animated dropdown. sigh.
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tantek
why is this so hard to test?
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ben_thatmustbeme
clearing cookies should do it
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ben_thatmustbeme
the detect homescreen bit might have worked
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ben_thatmustbeme
did you remove it from your Homescreen first?
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@voxpelli
Finally write a post about the exciting Indie-Config work that came out of this years @IndieWebCampUK: http://voxpelli.com/2014/10/indie-config-overview/ #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/524286648863842305)
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@voxpelli
Finally wrote a post about the exciting Indie-Config work that came out of this years @IndieWebCampUK: http://voxpelli.com/2014/10/indie-config-overview/ #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/524286929802514433)
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voxpelli
There – spelled correctly :P
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tantek.com
created /tragedy_of_the_comments (+270) "stub with citations, see also"
(view diff)
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tantek
voxpelli++ thank you for writing this up! will dig into it to try to get the button side of it working on my site before this week's HWC!
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Loqi
voxpelli has 12 karma
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voxpelli
tantek: Nice! I'll try to make a follow up post that digs more into the code as soon as possible, but I got the code on my blog working much better now
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tantek
very cool voxpelli!
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tantek
all updated for the latest <indie-action> tag and web+action: URLs?
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voxpelli
tantek: I believe so – two separate files – one for each at: https://github.com/voxpelli/voxpelli.github.com/tree/master/js
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tantek
kylewm ^^^ try to get it the indie-config side working on your site so you can click "Reply" on voxpelli's site
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tantek
a-ha I see <indie-action do="reply" … > in that very blog post http://voxpelli.com/2014/10/indie-config-overview/#conclusion - let's use that block of indie-actions as our test for indie-config
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kylewm
tantek: clicking Reply on voxpelli's site has worked for quite a while
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tantek
voxpelli: perhaps make that an explicit challenge at the end of your blog post
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voxpelli
kylewm: now it also works in Chrome ;)
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voxpelli
tantek: Good idea! Of course I should do that! :)
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tantek
Ask people to try replying by 1) implementing indie-config on their own site!
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tantek
and then 2) click the "Reply" button / icon at the bottom of the post
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kylewm
it pops up a dialog asking which application to use to handle web+action, and works as long as I hit OK quickly
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tantek
and to *only* send replies that way (rather than copy/paste URL into a form on your own website etc.)
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tantek
cweiske++ for experimenting with alternative approaches
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Loqi
cweiske has 16 karma
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tantek
hey 2014-11-06 is the 10 year anniversary of Tragedy of the Comments
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tantek
and we have a HWC meetup on 2014-11-05
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tantek
perhaps we can make /comments, /webmention, /vouch, /block etc. the primary topic for that night in recognition of what have we built since?
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voxpelli
cweiske: yep, saw it – interesting with different alternatives
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tantek
on the tragedy of comments / conversational commons
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cweiske
I think it's important that multiple applications can register themselves for different actions. my calendar app should be able to handle RSVPs, my bookmark app likes/faves
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cweiske
my blog replies
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tantek.com
edited /tragedy_of_the_comments (+128) "cited inspiration"
(view diff)
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tantek
cweiske - have you built multiple applications to register themselves like that on your own site?
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tantek
or is that currently a personal itch you're working on scratching?
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cweiske
my bookmarking application handles web+like
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@ThatEmil
RT @voxpelli: Finally wrote a post about the exciting Indie-Config work that came out of this years @IndieWebCampUK: http://t.co/RncAtCnrqD…
(twitter.com/_/status/524291623719419904)
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cweiske
my blog does not have a web interface, so I can only try to fire up emacs when the reply button gets pressed
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kylewm.com
edited /mp-config (+1380) "add description from Micropub Brainstorming page"
(view diff)
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cweiske
didn't try that, though
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kylewm
voxpelli: cweiske: I'd love your thoughts on this too http://indiewebcamp.com/mp-config
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voxpelli
tantek: added call to action now + changed wording to "Reply" and increased timeout for better compatibility
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cweiske
kylewm, I see "being logged in" as the big problem here
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cweiske
I'm better off copy&pasting the url I want to reply to in my reply UI since it's faster
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kylewm.com
edited /mp-config (+292) "/* IndieWeb Examples */"
(view diff)
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@kevinmarks
RT @voxpelli: Finally wrote a post about the exciting Indie-Config work that came out of this years @IndieWebCampUK: http://t.co/RncAtCnrqD…
(twitter.com/_/status/524292523838013441)
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tantek
cweiske: you may be an exception - everyone else I've seen in person finds it faster / simpler / easier to click "Reply" and do so inline without any copy/window-switch/paste
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cweiske
tantek, but then I have to be logged in to every blog I want to reply to
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cweiske
which I am not
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cweiske
since the indieweb is not a silo
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cweiske
"but it does require the user to support micropub and be signed in on the site they are browsing."
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tantek
right - indie-config avoids the "logged in to every blog I want to reply to" problem
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kylewm
tantek: yeah crossing the streams here, he was refering to mp-config where you at least have to have indieauthed with the site in question
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tantek
got it
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tantek
voxpelli: you receive and show webmention comments on your posts right?
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tantek
who's going to be the first to get indie-config & click "reply" on http://voxpelli.com/2014/10/indie-config-overview/#try-it-out working to post a comment there?
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kylewm.com
edited /mp-config (+8) "/* Detail */ fix link to micropub#section"
(view diff)
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tantek
looks over in kylewm's direction ;)
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voxpelli
tantek: Yes! Webmentions are fully supported
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tantek
ok I'll keep reloading :)
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fiatjaf
anyone willing to criticize or try out https://github.com/fiatjaf/microanalytics, my personal simplistic self-hosted pure-couchdb web-analytics tool?
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tantek
did aaronpk ever document how he uses websockets to show real time comments?
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tantek
what are real-time comments?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "real-time comments" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=real-time+comments
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kylewm.com
edited /Micropub () "(-688) /* Action Handler Discovery */ add link to main article"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
created /real-time_comments (+87) "stub with link to aaronpk's post"
(view diff)
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tantek
voxpelli: what do you think of aaronpk's code he uses to show comments in real time as they get accepted? http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/10/13/1/realtime-indieweb-comments is that something you could deploy?
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tantek
dang it's been a year since
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voxpelli
tantek: Its something I want to do, but its on a long list of other stuff I want to add to my webmentions service :P
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tantek
who is voxpelli?
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tantek
checks voxpelli'
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tantek
list on his user page
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voxpelli
Also: WebSockets is probably overkill for realtime comments, EventSource would be enough
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tantek
voxpelli: consider adding that "long list of other stuff
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voxpelli
tantek: Good idea
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tantek.com
edited /real-time_comments (+59) "see also"
(view diff)
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kylewm
cweiske: thanks a lot for the feedback, btw. good point about it being faster to just copy paste than to go through indieauth for every site on the internet...
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tantek
kylewm++
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Loqi
kylewm has 73 karma
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tantek
this is the kind of UX advances we need to make with indieweb technologies to make them friendlier / easier for us as well as people used to silo UX
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ben_thatmustbeme
oy, mp-config, indie-config, webactions. starting to wonder who will emerge victorious
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tantek
next challenge - who's going to get posting such a reply to voxpelli's post working on their *mobile* device? (or did you already post that from mobile kylewm ? )
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tantek
(and then of course post a video of the flow)
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kylewm
no, that was not from mobile sadly
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tantek
kylewm: it's ok, that just leaves another challenge for someone else (or you again :) )
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tantek
I'm guessing obra might get something to work via his Android intent handler app he built and showed off at IndieWebCamp Cambridge
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voxpelli
kylewm: thanks for the reply :)
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tantek
!tell obra what was the name of your Android intent handler app that shared stuff to Known to reply to, and can it also be configured to handle "web+action:" URLs?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi
obra: tantek left you a message 33 seconds ago: what was the name of your Android intent handler app that shared stuff to Known to reply to, and can it also be configured to handle "web+action:" URLs?
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kylewm
voxpelli++ of course! is the fallback to twitter based a timer now?
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Loqi
voxpelli has 13 karma
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obra
it's an android intent handler rather than a web intent handler
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voxpelli
kylewm: Yes! 3 seconds – just added a loading-gif to show that its waiting (so now its playing Tetris while you wait!)
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tantek
obra - pretty sure android intents can register to handle specific URL schemes
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obra
it should be fairly straightforward to extend it to also dealing with proxying based on url scheme
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gRegor`
Nice tetris 'loading' animation, voxpelli
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tantek
obra, nice!
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obra
tantek: if i recall the terminology correctly, activities can register
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obra
http://appurl.org/docs/android has other related resources
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GWG
Good evening
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tantek
obra this should be less work than that since it is "web+action:" not "http:"
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obra
it's all doable
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obra
there are a couple options for app design. one is just a 'shim' that launches a browser activity based on grabbing the right endpoints from your iw site
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obra
another is what i actually want. a local app that wraps your indieweb site and consumes the urls internally.
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obra
I really want a local known client, myself
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obra
the tiny bit of code i wrote for that skeleton app defaulted to apache2. happy to cc0 it or whatever
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tantek
obra - do you mean a local app that you would just enter your site URL and then it would hook it all up?
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tantek
CC0 preferred IMO
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ben_thatmustbeme
i found mp-config a lot easier to implement and doesn't require the promises bit, but it requires a login to know your mp-endpoint
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obra
tantek: yes.
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tantek
sounds pretty amazing
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obra
CC0, MIT, 3 clause BSD. whatevs. I'll take a pull request to clarify that license if anyone cares
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tantek
then the next question is, how to turn my site itself into a "web app" with its own "manifest" that claims to handle the web+action: "web activity", which then I can install on FirefoxOS
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tantek
(quite a big step up from just "Add to Homescreen")
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ben_thatmustbeme
perhaps a mixing of the two is what is needed. I like that it is my site that controls what app to use, I don't register a protocol on someone else's site (quill for example), but rather make changes to my endpoint that says where I should go. Perhaps we make the protocol handler point to our own MP endpoint, then its the clients we add to our list, and load the list via promise/iframe
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kodfabrik.se
edited /User:Kodfabrik.se (+1026) "Added a working on / itches part to my profile"
(view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme
only mildy more confusing
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voxpelli
ben_thatmustbeme: Promises bit?
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ben_thatmustbeme
isn't that how you tell if the custom protocol handler is installed?
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voxpelli
ben_thatmustbeme: Well, one could and I wrote a quick one that did – but realized that was a bit overengineered so reverted to a simple callback-based loader now
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voxpelli
will update the wiki with the new one
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ben_thatmustbeme
so here is my problem with indie-config right now, i can't realistically have multiple apps (one for reply, one for edit, etc) http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/webactions.htm proposed an new handler for each, which would work, but i feel like its putting all the management of it on the client machine, not on the person
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ben_thatmustbeme
mp-config puts all config managed by the micropub endpoint, but requires you to log in
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voxpelli
ben_thatmustbeme: you very much can, you return one endpoint per action in the indie-config – the only thing you have to have is a single indie-config that specify them all
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ben_thatmustbeme
what if we use web+action:// to point to the micropub endpoint, now you get the json list, just like with indieconfig but now its managed on server side
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ben_thatmustbeme
voxpelli, thats what i'm getting at, but no one has implmented it that way yet, its all playing at "register this editor as your editor"
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voxpelli
ben_thatmustbeme: No, everyone that I know ha simplemented a "reply" url that's used for replies
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techlifeweb
kylewm: Thanks for your help testing my Known install
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Loqi
techlifeweb: GWG left you a message 2 weeks, 4 days ago: https://david.shanske.com/articles/2014/10/02/site-setup/
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ben_thatmustbeme
voxpelli, yes, but i'm saying it tries to set ALL
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voxpelli
ben_thatmustbeme: not sure I understand what part is trying to set all?
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voxpelli
there's a single protocol handler, that's kind of the point (Firefox though allows you to pick which registered one you want to use whenever a site asks for it though) – then that protocol handler returns any number of different endpoints that can handle any number of different actions – so far only a "reply" endpoint has been used to my knowledge
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ben_thatmustbeme
no, i was setting mine up for reply, repost, edit, delete, undelete, new / create
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GWG
ben_thatmustbeme: I like that idea
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fiatjaf
kamikaze
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ben_thatmustbeme
voxpelli, rather than I go on to a MP client and it says "Set me as your handler", I log in to my site, and set my handler as my own config (ala mp-config) then when I go to a mp-client it asks (after i log in) if i want to use this client as my client for 'reply'
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ben_thatmustbeme
if i say yes it updates my config via MP
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ben_thatmustbeme
but only edits reply
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ben_thatmustbeme
so the only time you would set the protocol handler is once per device
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ben_thatmustbeme
and your settings are then shared across all your devices
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voxpelli
ben_thatmustbeme: not sure how that would differ actually
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voxpelli
but its getting pretty late over here so might just be me getting tired
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voxpelli
need to read up on mp-config it feels like to understand the difference
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ben_thatmustbeme
its more of difference in how things are handled, but it also adds the ability to query the config without the custom handler if you are logged in to a site
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ben_thatmustbeme
pushes config to being managed not static too
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fiatjaf
?join #pocoo
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Loqi
lolz
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ben_thatmustbeme
gives loqi a high five for timing
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Loqi
enjoys the high five for timing
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kodfabrik.se
edited /indie-config (+253) "Updated with simpler callback based loader script"
(view diff)
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voxpelli
ben_thatmustbeme: but couldn't you expose that managed config through indie-config as well?
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ben_thatmustbeme
not to the server, JS only
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ben_thatmustbeme
which is kinda messy
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ben_thatmustbeme
i'll try to implement it all and hopefully have something to show you by the end of the week
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voxpelli
Feels to me like mp-config and indie-config is very much the same thing, one is accessed server-side the other client-side, but they both contain the same data for the same purpose
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voxpelli
And that's great – there are use cases for both
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ben_thatmustbeme
basically yes, they are very similar. I'm saying we can unify server side and client side quite easily. https://ben.thatmustbe.me/micropub?q=json_actions
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ben_thatmustbeme
thats what i'm using right now
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ben_thatmustbeme
indie-config was the basis of it
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ben_thatmustbeme
but kylewm was trying to avoid JS / client side
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ben_thatmustbeme
it works perfectly for me, and its very simple to implement, but it requires login
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voxpelli
ok, cool – will be interesting to hear more about it
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voxpelli
please ping me if you write something about it
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ben_thatmustbeme
will do, keep an eye on the /mp-config i'm sure we'll be putting it all up there soon
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kylewm
voxpelli: that's exactly the difference -- mp-config aims to do on the server exactly the same thing as indie-config does on the client
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voxpelli
kylewm: great! :)
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@bru
testing the twitter mention fallback for this indieweb comments solution... this is quite intriguing http://voxpelli.com/2014/10/indie-config-overview/
(twitter.com/_/status/524307271631659009)
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ben_thatmustbeme
kylewm, did you try out my site with the pop-up version?
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voxpelli
Oh, regarding my WebMentions implementation btw: I don't have Bridgy working on my blog so the fallback won't be as nice as it could have been :P
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ben_thatmustbeme
i'm still querying json_actions
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kylewm
ben_thatmustbeme: my implemetnation still requires an access token
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kylewm
ben_thatmustbeme: ok i made it so you can query https://kylewm.com/micropub?q=json_actions without auth'ing
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kylewm
but i still don't see links
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kylewm
also heads up that https://ben.thatmustbe.me/author/1 returns an error
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cweiske
ben_thatmustbeme, I see the point of central management
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cweiske
which makes sense if you have web-only apps
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cweiske
but I guess that the indieweb is about web apps only
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adactio
I just got https://ownyourgram.com/ working with my micropub endpoint! https://adactio.com/notes/7701
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adactio
aaronpk++ for creating a great service
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Loqi
aaronpk has 587 karma
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kylewm
adactio++ awesome! you didn't post this photo via ownyourgram though did you?
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Loqi
adactio has 9 karma
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kylewm
#gramception
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adactio
kylem: Ha! The picture is of a test post, but yeah, it looks like I time travelled. ;-)
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kylewm
oh you did!! this is definitely my favorite first OwnYourGram post
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GWG
I need to make a list of everything I can't do easily.
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@adamprocter
OwnYourGram send your instagram to your domain http://ownyourgram.com/ fantastic need to update http://www.adamprocter.org/ feeds @IndieWebCampUK
(twitter.com/_/status/524318050384760833)
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KartikPrabhu_
look at all you productive people... while I am doing unproductive crap like installing stuff on new computer!
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GWG
KartikPrabhu_: A worthwhile goal
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GWG
I'm sitting here realizing that I need to build tools to quickly post notes as a higher priority because it takes me too much time to do it now, and that raises the barrier to quick thoughts.
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KartikPrabhu_
not really. this is just replacing my old one that died. after installing things I need to migrate data belh
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GWG
KartikPrabhu_: Is it at least a nice one?
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KartikPrabhu_
can someone make something like a hardware progressive enhancement so that my old stuff just works on new computers?
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu_: I want to know what distro you are installing, but you have to come to #indiechat so I can ask you
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GWG
KartikPrabhu__: Microsoft tried that for years. But supporting legacy is hard
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KartikPrabhu_
does #indiechat have a beta browser chat log ;)
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kylewm
ok you will have to casually drop it into on-topic conversation then
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KartikPrabhu_2
oh no too many mes
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kylewm
GWG: it sounds like you need micropub
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GWG
kylewm: I think custom post editors in WordPress is a more immediate possibility. It would take a long while to get MicroPub
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snarfed
kylewm, GWG: if it matters, i definitely need/vote for micropub!
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snarfed
KartikPrabhu_: re "hardware progressive enhancement," chromebooks do that
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snarfed
(apologies if that sounds like trolling :P)
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GWG
snarfed: I love Chromebooks...for some things.
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GWG
snarfed: I vote for it to. I'm just not voting to write it right now
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tantek
what is a Chromebook?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Chromebook" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Chromebook
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GWG
snarfed: I stink at parsing.
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GWG
I have a plan though
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KartikPrabhu_
tantek is bascially saying "go to indiechat" ;)
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GWG
There is a php-mf2 parser. I want to learn the ropes of using it by integrating the ability to retrieve content on a reply context into my Indieweb Taxonomy plugin.
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GWG
I figure if I get that working, I can go to the harder level
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fiatjaf
what is micropub
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Loqi
Micropub is an open API standard that is used to create posts on one's own domain using third-party clients http://indiewebcamp.com/Micropub
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GWG
Can a client use an authentication method other than Indieauth and still use MicroPub?
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kylewm
GWG: it doesn't have to be indieauth.com but it has to follow the same basic protocol, GET /auth with some paramters returns a code, POST /auth with the code to verify the user is who they say they are
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GWG
kylewm: I just would, if I added it to WordPress, I'd want it to also support providing the code if I'm logged into WordPress already
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kylewm
wordpress as an authorization endpoint would be really cool
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GWG
kylewm: WordPress authentication has some weaknesses that are often fixed by plugin
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GWG
For example, it does not lock accounts if you try passwords over and over again.
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gRegor`
I'm kinda surprised account locking has not become a core feature yet
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gRegor`
Given the install base and how targeted WP is as a result.
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GWG
gRegor`: Me too. Especially after the botnet attacks
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kylewm
nevertheless, getting wordpress to work as an authorization endpoint would be a good atomic/incremental step on the way to micropub
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kylewm
of course you could just use indieauth
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GWG
kylewm: Is that something that stands outside of MicroPub?
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kylewm
snarfed: I'm curious, what do you want micropub for?
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kylewm
GWG: yep the auth part is separate, some sites will use the authorization_point you define instead of indieauth.com just as part of regular sign-in
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GWG
kylewm: I'd need to learn a lot more about how WordPress works for that, I think. At least the authentication part
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snarfed
kylewm: posting? seems like many of the cool things people are making these days (e.g. indie actions, teacup, etc) use micropub
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tantek
interesting, looks like snarfed found some awkwardness in how voxpelli is displaying likes: http://voxpelli.com/2014/10/indie-config-overview/#try-it-out
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kylewm
he tends to do that
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snarfed
tantek: yeah, voxpelli and i have seen this before. he's unusuall in that he shows both title/summary and content unless they're exactly identical
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GWG
snarfed: If I ever get to my interim plan of writing custom post forms that can be added to a custom page location using a shortcode, I'll tell you.
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tantek
are yours not exactly identical?
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snarfed
tantek: nope
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tantek
I didn't think he had bridgy hooked up! (per his comment earlier in IRC)
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snarfed
it's not bridgy
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tantek
snarfed, I've written up an algorithm for this test of equivalence of title/summary and content
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snarfed
tantek: awesome!
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snarfed
GWG: great! …why though? i'm probably missing context.
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snarfed
(GWG: also, re stinking at parsing, why do you need to? that's what php-mf2, mf2py, etc are for, right?)
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GWG
snarfed: I mentioned it a few moments ago. As an interim solution on the way to MicroPub.
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snarfed
GWG: ah, got it
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tantek
snarfed, hmm, and now not finding it trivially I'm thinking I need to put it on its own page
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GWG
snarfed: Step 1, get some forms up for replies and new notes...basic preset functionality. Step 2, start replacing the plumbing.
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fiatjaf
what is this micropub about? is it for publishing at your own website and syndicating to others' websites?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "this micropub about" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=this+micropub+about
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tantek
found it
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fiatjaf
isn't this the same thing as webmention?
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tantek.com
created /this_micropub_about (+26) "redirect from off the top of my head, let's see if this works"
(view diff)
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GWG
snarfed: I want to use them in a plugin. I've never used the libraries. I picked the lower bar of using php-mf2 to import reply context data as a good way to start.
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tantek
ah, need to create a "Why" section on /Micropub
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snarfed
GWG: looks like some of pfefferle's and jihaisse's wp plugins use php-mf2. could be good examples
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tantek
snarfed - any suggested names for the algorithm for "title/summary and content ... identical?"
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GWG
snarfed: Also learning some of the WordPress functions at the same time. Been slowly building up.
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snarfed
tantek: thanks! forwarding to voxpelli, since he's the one who'd need to fully implement it (http://indiewebcamp.com/note#Note_Type_Algorithm)
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snarfed
tantek: "equivalence" ?
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tantek
can't tell if serious or making fun of me for asking for a name ;)
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kylewm
tantek: I'll add my little heuristic for checking if p-name contains content -- which means it's probably the default implied name
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tantek
kylewm - the equivalence test may apply outside of microformats, e.g. in legacy feed files - <entry><title> vs <entry><content>
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tantek
hence phrasing it in terms of two strings seems best
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tantek
I might even just implement it in cassis.js as a standalone function to help nudge this along
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snarfed
tantek: heh, re equivalence, actually a serious suggestion. up to you though :P
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tantek
snarfed - was just thinking that name is a bit broad. e.g. "equivalence algortihm" might be expected to do A LOT more than just check between title/summary/content.
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tantek
kylewm, "explicit title algorithm" sounds pretty good, just wondering if "explicit" might get easily misinterpreted as implying some sort of keyword or other filtering
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kylewm
lol, yeah that's a fair consideration
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kylewm
explicit content algorithm :P
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tantek
how about something along the lines of "entry name discovery" algorithm
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tantek
or even "post name discovery"
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tantek
which either returns the "explicit" name/title, or "" if there is none or if it was apparently automatically generated from content?
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snarfed
tantek: oh, i was just suggesting the word "equivalence," not that it would be the full title. e.g. "title/content equivalence" alg. but i'm happy with anything!
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kylewm
I like post name discovery -- more outcome oriented
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tantek
just as we have authorship
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kylewm
or wait, "title"?
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tantek
title is too presentational, hence name
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tantek
looks for a citation
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kylewm
i would call it a "blog post title" not a "blog post name"?
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kylewm
s/\?//
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Loqi
kylewm meant to say: i would call it a "blog post title" not a "blog post name"
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tantek
and we say "name" of that book / movie /song
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tantek
we don't say "title" of that movie / song
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tantek
darn mysql using "name" as a stopword :(
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kylewm
I guess my problem with "name" is that every h-entry has a name, but not every h-entry has a title
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kylewm
and we're trying to figure out if name is meaningful
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tantek
or merely presentational
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tantek
oh my goodness I totally missed that scottjension and adaction were making fun of my permashortcitations! https://twitter.com/t/status/521483269498744832
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@t
#IndieWebCamp Cambridge hack day: * webmention with vouch receive flow chart * #indiecomms conditional Facetime button (ttk.me t4Ya2)
(twitter.com/_/status/521483269498744832)
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tantek
(check the comments)
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tantek
sadly, the first one is spam!
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KartikPrabhu_
permashortcitations are just not recognized by anyone yet
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: but that's "normal" for nearly everything new
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snarfed
i'm not personally a huge fan of PSCs or PSLs, but fwiw, bridgy recognizes and handles them
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tantek
the funny thing is that permashortcitations are an implementation of what lucasgonze was trying to (re)invent as "webmentions" (before he changed the name to srch URIs) https://medium.com/@lucas_gonze/webmention-uris-bec4e0dda3c6
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tantek
snarfed - fair enough. I still have mixed opinions as well but for now am erring on the side of preferring an explicit breadcrumb, and avoiding a click target that provides no extra information to the user.
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tantek
hence nothing < PSC > PSL for short posts for me
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adactio
tantek: the problem is that because your permashort-thingy *isn't* a link, it isn't clear what it is. It looks like txtspk.
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kylewm
this post would be way more convincing if it had a srch URI
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KartikPrabhu_
srch URI are quite some bit of over enginnering. similar to "search by class" in the URL or somthing
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KartikPrabhu_
thinks this has been discussed/debated before
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tantek
it has
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adactio
tantek: but then again, I said the same thing to Chris about hashtags. ;-) …I stand by my (unhashtagged) words!
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tantek
adactio - the question is whether lack of clarity is worse or better than increased distraction from a link that goes to something with the same content
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tantek
I mean, they're both forms of distraction, I see the permashortcitation as less-so than a permashortlink to the same exact content
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tantek
less *distracting* that is
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tantek
in terms of emotional design, I suppose I'm preferring confusion (over txtspk) over annoyance (over having clicked a URL and not seeing anything new)
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adactio
tantek: why not just replace the space with a slash? Then it would look like a link (which it is), without being a clickable link (which doesn't lead to anything new).
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tantek
adactio - ah, let me check my archives for when I used to do that, and then Twitter changed their auto-linker, thus actually making those clickable, and then I switched the space " " instead of the "/" )
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adactio
tantek: i.e ((ttk.me/t4Ya2) instead of (ttk.me t4Ya2)
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KartikPrabhu_
i think twitter auto-links that
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tantek
it does. I'm looking for the date they started to
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kylewm
it's interesting that they autolink a bare ttk.com but not ttk.me
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KartikPrabhu_
i suppose my own auto-linking code will link that too
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adactio
tantek: As it is now, it looks *kind of* like a link, but a human has to copy it, and then paste it, replacing the space with a slash ...only to find it leads to no new information. Surely that's more frustrating than just clicking?
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tantek
kylewm they don't autolink bare ccTLDs
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tantek
adactio - if anyone *is* doing that then yes, that is absolutely more frustrating. haven't heard of any actual reports of that though. only of confusion.
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KartikPrabhu_
it seems the problem is to say "here is original post with same content" vs "here is the original *full* post"
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adactio
tantek: So in answer to Scott's question ("Is it for you or me? If you, why is it there?") it is there for *you* then, right?
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: correct. hence original post same content -> PSC. original post more content -> PSL.
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tantek
adactio it's also a clue that something else is going on. that you're looking at a copy, not an original.
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KartikPrabhu_
adactio: I disagree. I have used PSCs to find original post from ben_thatmustbeme 's twitter post
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tantek
right - code can do /original-post-discovery on a PSC
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adactio
KartikPrabhu_: can you give me an example?
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@kartik_prabhu
@dissolve333 Yeah. But I wanted to make things too. Using this time to see how miserable posting from mobile is for me. #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/521051239048441856)
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KartikPrabhu_
I used the PSC to find the original post and replied to that from my site here: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/indiewebcamp-mobile-posting-bad
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KartikPrabhu_
and webmentioned too so ben got the post from my site not twitter https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2014/10/11/6/
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adactio
KartikPrabhu_: Right, but to do that, you had to copy, paste, replace (space with slash) ...instead of click.
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KartikPrabhu_
adactio: true. but if it was a link it could be interpreted as "here is more content"
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KartikPrabhu_
I don't have a good solution to this conundrum
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tantek
adactio Twitter started auto-linking (ttk.me/t4EJ8) on 2011-10-11 (or maybe 1-2 days before hand). See https://twitter.com/t/status/122781208089346048 (no autolink), vs. https://twitter.com/t/status/123862277777661952 (autolinked)
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@t
so many creative works to build, yet so much time-sucking brain-dulling logistics, paper forms, accounting work to do. (ttk.me/t4EF1)
(twitter.com/_/status/122781208089346048)
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kylewm
p3k does original-post-discovery when you reply to a tweet (I think) ... if there is a PSC in the tweet, then it finds the original automatically
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snarfed
personally, i'm with adactio. i include a full link when there's more content, otherwise nothing
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kylewm
no copy/paste
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snarfed
(now that twitter t.cos everything, short urls are less useful. maybe mostly just offline now…?)`
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KartikPrabhu_
snarfed: I do that too but if there is nothing there is no way to find the original post is there?
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snarfed
syndication links let you do the same original post discovery and are less confusing to users
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adactio
What if there were to indicate that the link is metadata, while still having it look like a like (i.e. no space)? e.g #ttk.me/t4Ya2 ...except not # because that's already taken by goram hashtags.
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tantek
snarfed - I do see PSC's as transitional, once a site includes more *functionality* that tweets (e.g. bridgy comments from other silos) then it's worth always having a PSL - because you do always have more.
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tantek
s/that tweets/than tweets
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: snarfed - I do see PSC's as transitional, once a site includes more *functionality* than tweets (e.g. bridgy comments from other silos) then it's worth always having a PSL - because you do always have more.
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snarfed
the facebook "See Original" custom link we've used is a way better solution. wish twitter supported that
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KartikPrabhu_
I use the convention "more: full link" if there is more content
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snarfed
tantek: eh. that's the one argument i can understand…but it's still just one factor. for me personally, the tradeoff still isn't worth it
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tantek
snarfed - we have been asking for "See Original" style metadata / source since the days of Twitter annotations. deaf ears. :(
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snarfed
confusing my followers isn't worth letting a small minority of them see that people liked the same post on FB etc
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snarfed
tantek: yup!
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tantek
adactio I appreciate the effort put into thinking of alternatives e.g. #ttk.me/t4Ya2
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tantek
wonder what that would be like without a shortdomain, e.g. #tantek.com/t4Ya2
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snarfed
agreed on minimizing short domains. less confusion for users
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snarfed
(honestly i wonder if we need them much at all any more, at least for online use cases)
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tantek
what is a short domain?
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tantek
snarfed - by offline do you mean print?
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KartikPrabhu_
would like to know how many people have written permalinks on paper and if they find full URLs cumbersome.
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tantek
snarfed, real world needs / use-cases here, which I will now add a few more too: http://indiewebcamp.com/short-domain#Why_personal_short_URLs
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snarfed
tantek: sure, or spoken
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snarfed
tantek: yup, i've seen that. we've discussed arguments against the first three points here. (all links are the same length on twitter now; PSCs are debatable UX; syndication links are arguably as good for original post discovery, maybe better)
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snarfed
tantek: so only the last one compels me personally
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tantek
snarfed, right - I'm expanding the fourth
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snarfed
great!
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tantek
I keep finding more cases of that - and will expand (likely split) accordingly
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snarfed
and even for offline, short links to specific posts seem more compelling than just the domain
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snarfed
anyway, gotta run
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KartikPrabhu_
thinks of making URL redirects on own site that takes a syndication copy as parameter and finds original post
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snarfed
thanks for wikifying!
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snarfed
KartikPrabhu_: ooh i like it!
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@ShaneHudson
@schofeld @marcoarment I have no plans to bide my time. No time to bide. That's why I like #indieweb, my website - my responsibility.
(twitter.com/_/status/524340809379110912)
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snarfed
although the common use case is it's a recent tweet, so you just look at the front page or top of replies, and it's visible
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snarfed
usually good enough
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KartikPrabhu_
snarfed: true
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tantek.com
edited /short-domains (+1288) "/* Email IM SMS print */ split into: Entry length limitations (add scenarios), and Easier to use"
(view diff)
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ShaneHudson
Very much so, will add it :)
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tantek
Thank you!
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gRegor`
KartikPrabhu_ Is your webmention db schema on the wiki/your site anywhere?
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gRegor`
As I'm working on this updated plugin, I'm curious about other people's schemas
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tantek
!tell snarfed documented a few more short(er) URL (thus domain) use-cases: http://indiewebcamp.com/short-domains#Entry_length_limitations
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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dunlaps.net
created /Template:dariusdunlap (+640) "Created page with "== my indie web setup == * http://dunlaps.net/darius is my primary home where I post ** [[notes]] and [[POSSE]] them (abbreviated if necessary) to: *** [[Twitter]] - https://twi...""
(view diff)
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tantek
hmm dariusdunlap - you using a personal template unlike how everyone else is?
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dunlaps.net
edited /Template:dariusdunlap (-247) "/* my indie web setup */"
(view diff)
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gRegor`
Looks like User: and Template: mixup
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shanehudson.net
edited /Twitter (+452) "/* Criticism */"
(view diff)
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dunlaps.net
edited /Template:dariusdunlap (+231) "/* my indie web setup */"
(view diff)
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gRegor`
"The problem is still the complete power over an increasingly important communication medium residing in a single company and its single centralized service." Marco on Twitter
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tantek
!tell adactio your suggestion is very close to what I discovered a couple of years ago - Twitter does not hashtag-link nor hyperlink #http - e.g.: https://twitter.com/t/status/225102430981988354
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek
hmm - what if I started using #http://ttk.me/t4Ya2
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sparverius
url shorteners :(
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tantek
I know both my auto-linker and our /irc/today auto-linker is smart enough to auto-link the URL *without* the #
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tantek
sparverius, not all of us can have a 4 letter .com ;)
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sparverius
no i mean, they're brittle
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tantek
sparverius - some are. the sources of brittleness are discrete. separate company running them, using database IDs for the brief gibberish.