#indiewebcamp 2014-10-20

2014-10-20 UTC
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butter [ KartikPra(:#indiewebcamp)] i like the idea of GET request to micropub endpoint giving an idea of the capabilities of the endpoint <- OPTIONS
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KevinMarks_ should it return a from you can embed into yours?
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KevinMarks_ s/from/form/
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Loqi KevinMarks_ meant to say: should it return a form you can embed into yours?
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Loqi [mention] http://chooch.us/2014/10/19/blogging-known-style/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/principles (pingback)
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kylewm I have discovered a new and exciting indieauth error
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Loqi [mention] http://chooch.us/2014/10/19/blogging-known-style/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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kylewm HTTP/1.1 1406 Unknown Reason-Phrase
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kylewm Status: 1406 Unknown Reason-Phrase
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butter 1406? :)
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kylewm I didn't even know they went up that high :P
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ben_thatmust hey guys
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kylewm hi ben_thatmust
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kylewm ben_thatmust: are you bored? do you want to help me test a micropub thing? O:)
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ben_thatmust sure
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kylewm ben_thatmust: so I added micropub-based login to my site; and after you log in, it will query your micropub endpoint with micropub?q=actions
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kylewm and expects to get back a list of action handlers like reply=http://example.com/reply?url={url}&repost=http://example.com/repost?url={url}
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kylewm the goal being to fill in the Reply Repost Like links on my site with your endpoints rather than twitter
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kylewm ben_thatmust: if you don't want to mess with your code, just testing that you can log in would be helpful
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ben_thatmust oh that should be no problem
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ben_thatmust as in taht would be the only thing in the body?
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kylewm yep, just like q=syndicate-to
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@kevinmarks @ccarfi you use the "reply to a site" field and it sends a webmention see http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention (twitter.com/_/status/524004617751760896)
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ben_thatmust https://ben.thatmustbe.me/micropub?q=actions
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ben_thatmust like so?
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ben_thatmust i don't think thats a good format though
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kylewm mm, yeah that is a problem huh
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kylewm that you need to url-escape each entry
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ben_thatmust could always json format it
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kylewm do you implement q=syndicate-to?
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kylewm I was trying to follow that as my model
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ben_thatmust actually i have a problem with the format of syndicate to
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ben_thatmust i implement it, but I also do it another way
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ben_thatmust i send both syndicate-to[]=link1&syndicate-to=link2&syndicate-to=link1,link2
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ben_thatmust since
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ben_thatmust since ',' is a legal URL character
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ben_thatmust https://ben.thatmustbe.me/micropub?q=json_actions
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ben_thatmust what about that
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kylewm yeah, I'm in the [] camp
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ben_thatmust i send both, for support
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ben_thatmust i was hacking in all the functionality to just submit without the [], but it got pretty messy
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kylewm yeah, it seems like the [] is artificial, but useful for being parseable by everyone
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kylewm the json way is fine, but nothing else in micropub uses json
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kylewm I don't want to be the first :P
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ben_thatmust so syndicate-to=link1&syndicate-to=link2. by default php overwrites, but you can process yourself. Problem being as soon as you use encoding types it doesn't let you do that
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ben_thatmust which is rather important for image submits
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ben_thatmust so what
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ben_thatmust it makes sense, highly portable, and its highly likely this will be parsed by javascript
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kylewm just for testing, can you make q=actions return a stringmore like like=like%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fben.thatmustbe.me%2Fnew%3Ftype%3Dlike%26like%3D%7Burl%7D&reply=https%3A%2F%2Fben.thatmustbe.me%2Fnew%3Freply_to%3D%7Burl%7D
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kylewm should have been like=https%3A%2F%2Fben.thatmustbe.me%2Fnew%3Ftype%3Dlike%26like%3D%7Burl%7D&reply=https%3A%2F%2Fben.thatmustbe.me%2Fnew%3Freply_to%3D%7Burl%7D
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kylewm also, I don't think this is likely to be parsed yb JavaScript -- since it requires a micropub token to query it, it almost has to be called from the server side
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ben_thatmust hows that?
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ben_thatmust oh, wait, you didn't want the &
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ben_thatmust hold on
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ben_thatmust there ya go
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ben_thatmust kylewm, try now
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/524004617751760896/524007149051994112 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention (webmention)
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kylewm hrm much closer, looks the ='s are being escaped now
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ben_thatmust oh duh, sorry, fixed
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kylewm awesome, ok, are you able to log into my site?
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ben_thatmust Internal Server Error if i don't put http://
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kylewm oh good to know
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kylewm it looks like it worked!!
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kylewm do reply links send you to your site?
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ben_thatmust kylewm++ YES
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Loqi kylewm has 72 karma
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kylewm yayay!
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kylewm you are awesome for testing!
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kylewm ben_thatmustbeme++
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme has 29 karma
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ben_thatmust very cool method
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ben_thatmust i'd still recommend json
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kylewm hehe
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ben_thatmust not quite inline yet, but opening a new window on it would certainly work
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kylewm http://indiewebcamp.com/indie-config uses json
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ben_thatmust i know, i basically copied my settings for it out of that
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kylewm ya, me too
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kylewm actually I'd be up for supporting either one depending on the content type
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ben_thatmust indie-config feels too hacky, relying on custom protocol handler, I like the idea of it polling your own site to find the URL to load this way
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ben_thatmust ideally it would be awesome, but this will work much better cross devices, no need to register protocol, also allows you to use multiple clients for different things really, you can have it return a URL for whatever you want to use
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ben_thatmust just need to work out the JS for popups
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kylewm i wish there were some way to figure out indie-cofnig without the config step
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kylewm if indie+reply is registered, do that
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ben_thatmust most are blocked, but twitter does it smoothly
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ben_thatmust but JS doesn't do that, its a security issue
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kylewm ohh yeah, popup is a good idea
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kylewm how about, if indie+reply isn't registered, just popup a hella confusing error message
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kylewm i bet js can do that
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kylewm "Firefox doesn't know how to open this address, because one of the following protocols (indie+reply) isn't associated with any program or is not allowed in this context."
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kylewm sorry, being silly now
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ben_thatmust no, it doesn't work that way
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kylewm !tell benwerd did you POSSE a person-tagged photo?? https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10100959763169079&set=a.10100499239547109.1073741827.36802236&type=1&permPage=1
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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kylewm ben_thatmust: what doesn't work that way? I just did it
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kylewm it's just like having an aim: URL but no AIM client registered
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ben_thatmust oh, sorry, i misread that
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ben_thatmust aim: doesn't work on android anymore
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ben_thatmust nor does fb-messenger:
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ben_thatmust android is moving all to the Intents bit, but as far as i know, URLs can't launch intents
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kylewm ah yeah, i need to try obra's shim for launching a URL via an intent (rather than the other way around)
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kylewm I'm gonna go eat dinner, thanks so much for your help! think I'll have to defer to aaronpk on the JSON/urlencode issue
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ben_thatmust okay, i'm going to look in to the JS to get a nice popup like this working
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tantek kylewm - lol for asking the same question as me
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tantek re: benwerd and POSSE person-tagging
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@Sneakyness @Dirk_Gently @andycam_ I’m a big fan of https://indieauth.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/524028496004128770)
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@CreativeMusic1 FEATURED LINK: Webmention: an introduction for developers http://www.creative-music.org/featured-link-webmention-an-introduction-for-developers/link/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+CreativeMusic+%28Creative+Music%29 #songwriting (twitter.com/_/status/524036363817988096)
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ben_thatmust NICE, i got the JS popup from twitter working
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ben_thatmust :D
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ben_thatmust !tell kylewm I got the popup bit working from twitter. if implement ?q=json_actions then log in to my site, the reply links on the main page work as popups
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk looks like I have some catching up to do
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ben_thatmust may have worked out some in-line reply bits
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ben_thatmust exactly as twitter
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ben_thatmust well, the pop-up version anyway
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ben_thatmust twitter has the JS published on how to make it work, a quick change and it pops out links in indie-action tags https://github.com/dissolve/postly/blob/master/blog/view/javascript/intents.js
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obra bleh. I'd really love to get my old blog content into my known instance.
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aaronpk What's all that JavaScript for?
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ben_thatmust popup window for UI
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ben_thatmust_ in Boston we were looking at how Twitter did their interface. that will do the same
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KartikPrabhu__ ben_thatmust_ remember progressive enhancement if you can :P
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@obensource @fritzy more reason to start #indieweb-ing my data pushing. (twitter.com/_/status/524045988915597313)
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KevinMarks Could the micropub endpoint return an HTML5 form (or several forms) with mf2 markup on the submit urls?
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KartikPrabhu__ I have been thinking about something similar for my posting interface
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KartikPrabhu__ I want to have a posting interface inline with the rest of the page, but does not seem possible with current micropub
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aaronpk Why not? Micropub only says what the post request should look like
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ben_thatmust_ the problem we found with that was hitting cross site security
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aaronpk But if you do a straight up post request you don't have that problem
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aaronpk KevinMarks I bet we could have it return an HTML form that also is marked up with microformats so that there's also a JSON version
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aaronpk <form action="your reply endpoint" method="get" class="u-reply-endpoint"> or something
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KartikPrabhu__ aaronpk: I was thinking along the lines of how G+ post interface appears right where you click in the stream
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aaronpk On someone else's site?
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KartikPrabhu__ no on G+ itself. But with micropub's returning form elements that could be made to work inline on your own site and probably on someone elses
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aaronpk ✈️ back later
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KartikPrabhu__ back to watching Cowboy Bebop
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ben_thatmust_ sleep for me. I think the pop-up is the right way about it honestly. presents your own view from your own client.
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ben_thatmust_ can think it through more tomorrow. gnight all
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KevinMarks Hm. I wonder if you could iframe it and have it mf2 parseable as an option? Is that too much overloading?
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KartikPrabhu__ shouldn't that be left to the client?
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KartikPrabhu__ maybe use *-mp-* as micropub specific mf2 things for forms?
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KartikPrabhu__ like h-mp-form on the main form element and then everything inside it can be treated as a micropub form
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kylewm KevinMarks: I'm not understanding what the mf2 on the form is for?
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Loqi kylewm: ben_thatmust left you a message 1 hour, 9 minutes ago: I got the popup bit working from twitter. if implement ?q=json_actions then log in to my site, the reply links on the main page work as popups
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KevinMarks Instead of returning magic json to a get, return a form to post the micropub marked up with mf2 so you can use it for the extra data you need
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kylewm so, marked up with micropub as in <input name="h" value="entry"/> ?
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kylewm s/micropub/microformats2
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Loqi kylewm meant to say: so, marked up with microformats2 as in <input name="h" value="entry"/> ?
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kylewm returning a micropub form is a really interesting idea
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KevinMarks Given that you can post to micropub with a form, you'd just need to add the token?
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thierrymarianne What is karma?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "karma" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=karma
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@techlifeweb Thought I'd try installing @withknown on my own domain. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/524075224338137088)
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@feeman Check out THIS Web protocol. .. RT: @withknown: Webmention: an introduction for developers http://stream.withknown.com/2014/webmention-an-introduction-for-developers (twitter.com/_/status/524079621047070720)
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Loqi [mention] http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/webactions.htm linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/indie-config#How_to_load_someones_indie-config (webmention)
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Jihaisse Hello
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cweiske.de edited /webactions (+19) "/* See Also */" (view diff)
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@dundeemakespace We only have 5 tickets remaining for our web workshop tomorrow. Don't forget to get yours if you want to come along https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/web-workshop-001-the-indieweb-tickets-13600109293 (twitter.com/_/status/524122697786462208)
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jonnybarnes hey everyone
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@Japh @pwcc It kind of was, yeah. Good one! Like… Twitter for the #IndieWeb? ;) (twitter.com/_/status/524137030389755904)
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ben_thatmust The problem with returning a form for the site to post to is that you have to trust the site you are posting on. You need to give post access to the site, which we are trying to avoid
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ben_thatmustbeme damn, caught up in work, but once i am able to, these reply and other such in-line actions should work excellently
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tantek very cool ben_thatmustbeme - are you using the indie-config method or micropub or … ?
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ben_thatmustbeme kylewm's micropub query bit
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ben_thatmustbeme micropub endpoint query returns a json of all actions and URLs
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ben_thatmustbeme i'm been calling it mp-config in my git commits thus far
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@iboxifoo @webmeadow good write up here: https://indiewebcamp.com/https (twitter.com/_/status/524224610871414784)
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ben_thatmustbeme quiet morning
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tantek yes
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@ccarfi @benwerd Cool. Will check it out. Thanks! #indieweb http://ccarfi.com/s/27M8c (twitter.com/_/status/524234945930096641)
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@techlifeweb Thought links formatted with "u-like-of" would show up on my @withknown site as stars instead of comments. #indieweb http://known.techlifeweb.com/2014/i-thought-links-formatted-with-u-like-of-would-have-shown-up (twitter.com/_/status/524239542191013888)
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gRegor` G'day, indieweb
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ben_thatmustbeme just pushed my code live for the ability to reply / edit / delete so long as your MP endpoint supports those
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ben_thatmustbeme and offers them up with ?q=json_actions
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kylewm ben_thatmustbeme: I just logged in anew and don't see reply, etc. links
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@nobantu One Week Until #IIW XIX There is still time to Reg: http:/// One Day Tickets now available! #UMA #VRM #CRM #IoT #IndieWeb (twitter.com/_/status/524242859277701120)
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kylewm ben_thatmustbeme: ah, your request to q?json_actions did not have an Authorization: Bearer XXXX header
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@davidmead #indiewebcamp video http://davidmead.withknown.com/2014/indiewebcamp-video (twitter.com/_/status/524245555069734912)
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Loqi [mention] http://davidmead.withknown.com/2014/indiewebcamp-video linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Cambridge (webmention)
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ben_thatmustbeme kylewm, I don't get a token, i don't see the need
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ben_thatmustbeme the config is something I'd want to be easily accessible
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ben_thatmustbeme what would be next is to be able to set those via MP
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ben_thatmustbeme like /micropub?q=set&action=reply&with= href="https://ben.thatmustbe.me/new?url={url}" target="_blank">https://ben.thatmustbe.me/new?url={url}
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ben_thatmustbeme and that would require privileged access, thus when I go to Quill, i could set that as my NEW action, and maybe my own site for edit/delete, etc
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kylewm ben_thatmustbeme: yeah, I don't see the need to hide them either; I was just following the q=syndicate-to pattern again ... the next hting i want to do is add a "Profile" editor so that when you are logged in you can manually edit your own access points
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kylewm (and that would work fine with plain old indieauth, no micropub required)
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ben_thatmustbeme yes. i like that too, just want to get rid of "manually edit" if possible
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ben_thatmustbeme we should start documenting all this on the wiki
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Loqi I agree
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kylewm http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub#Action_Handler_Discovery
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@the_Zieger @sir_pepe hm ok. Dann ist ja alles offen. Kann meine Eindrücke zur #bono14 bieten also zb #indieweb und etc. @derSchepp @workingdraft (twitter.com/_/status/524249276743184384)
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kylewm that's where i put it so far
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kylewm but maybe it should be under /indie-config or /webactions
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ben_thatmustbeme i've been calling it mp-config
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ben_thatmustbeme hmm
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kylewm i like mp-config
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ben_thatmustbeme i'm still going to fight you on the json format for it bit
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ben_thatmustbeme :P
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tantek I like that we're experimenting with multiple approaches
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tantek kylewm: up for HWC this Wednesday in SF?
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tantek what is mp-config?
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ben_thatmustbeme i'd love for others to see this in action and help brainstorm on it
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "mp-config" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=mp-config
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kylewm tantek: yes!
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tantek guess I better get a room then
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kylewm ben_thatmustbeme: I'm happy to support either format via Content-Type header
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kylewm s/either/both
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Loqi kylewm meant to say: ben_thatmustbeme: I'm happy to support both format via Content-Type header
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ben.thatmustbe.me created /mp-config (+164) "stub" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme what is mp-config?
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Loqi mp-config is a method of using a query to a micropub endpoint to allow you indie website to discover user support for webactions http://indiewebcamp.com/mp-config
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tantek room reserved for HWC SF this week. We are a go for 1st floor @MozSF
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ben_thatmustbeme kylewm, sounds good, i'll try to implement that on the train home today
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tantek.com edited /events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club (-13) "SF location @MozSF is a go" (view diff)
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tantek Portland (aaronpk dietrich) and Minneapolis - what's up for HWC this week for you guys?
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tantek.com edited /events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club (+8) "/* RSVP */ +t" (view diff)
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tantek kylewm: could you post an indie event for HWC SF on your Known for this week? and POSSE copy on FB? http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club#URLs
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tantek or hey - maybe benwerd can too!
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@TheScathed RT @caseorganic: The Internet of someone else's things. http://techcrunch.com/2014/10/11/the-internet-of-someone-elses-things/ #iot #indieweb (http://caseorganic.com/notes/2014/10/11/8/iot-indieweb) (twitter.com/_/status/524252626372681728)
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dietrich tantek: i can't join or host. too much stuffs going on :/
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tantek !tell aaronpk, bret, caseorganic aaron, bret, case (the ABC's of IndieWeb PDX ;) ) could one or more of you pick a space to host HWC this week 2014-10-22 in PDX and add to wiki? http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club#Where Thanks much!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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marginalventures I thank you all for providing me a new blog platform that I'm interested in exploring. I wanted to give one bit of feedback about the installer
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marginalventures it didn't tell me that I didn't have mysql installed
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marginalventures otherwise it's working for me so far
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marginalventures - withknown that is
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tantek marginalventures: interesting! what did you expect it to do?
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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indie-visitor nick tgbrun
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marginalventures oh I just expected the first step of the getting started wizard thing that told me I was missing mod_rewrite and such to let me know I was missing mysql
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obra marginalventures: indeed. It could do a better job of checking mysql. If you're up for it, could you report that here:https://github.com/idno/idno/issues/new
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KartikPrabhu__1 indie-visitor: use /nick with the slah
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marginalventures Other than that the install was straight forward. I will indeed report it thanks
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tantek thanks marginalventures - that's good feedback. and thanks in advance for reporting it on github issues!
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obra awesome.
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kylewm why does PHP escape /'s in its JSON output? is that something I need to worry about?
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kylewm ben_thatmustbeme: sorry that was a question for you ^
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KartikPrabhu__1 /nick KartikPrabhu_
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KartikPrabhu__1 boooo
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gRegor` The escapes are htmlspecialchars() I believe, not json_decode()
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gRegor` You mean like the output of pin13.net, kylewm?
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kylewm gRegor`: yes, though I am referring specifically to https://ben.thatmustbe.me/micropub?q=json_actions
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gRegor` I was wrong. I guess it is json_encode() doing it
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gRegor` parsing it should not be a problem, though.
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gRegor` No problems dropping it into jsoneditoronline.org
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gRegor` is too lazy to try it in PHP right now :)
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu__ still laptopless?
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gRegor` And related: on for HWC this Wednesday?
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kylewm oh my bad, Python's json module handles those \'s just fine
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kylewm sorry for the false alarm
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KartikPrabhu__1 gregor`: yes. but the new one is supposed to arrive today
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kylewm KevinMarks: is it ok for me to hijack your Known for another HWC event?
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KevinMarks Sure, go for it
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gRegor` I think every JSON module *should* handle them
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kylewm.com edited /events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club (+82) "/* URLs */ add SF URLs" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] http://known.kevinmarks.com/2014/homebrew-website-club-october-22-2014 linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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ben_thatmustbeme kylewm, its an optional thing that many leave as default. prevents ever hitting </ inside a string
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/12802152/363235400520063/36802236 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/12802152/673714532743736/12802152 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/12802152/839586089407545/12802152 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/12802152/363235400520063/53300263 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/12802152/363235400520063/768030371 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/12802152/363235400520063/12802152 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/12802152/363235400520063/212038 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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KevinMarks Hm, deduping needed? http://known.kevinmarks.com/2014/homebrew-website-club-october-22-2014
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kylewm augh, what have I done
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kylewm I created three separate facebook events
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kylewm :(
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tantek kylewm: how did you do that?!?
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kylewm can you delete comments in Knownw?
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kylewm Facebook's fault!!
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kylewm I clicked "Create", it turned grey, nothing happened, then enabled again
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kylewm so I kept clicking...
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ben_thatmustbeme kylewm is breaking things?
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tantek lol! please add to /Facebook#Issues (or #Criticism) - as that's a real UI issue we should document as something to avoid in our own UIs.
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KevinMarks There should be a delete comment link next to each one for you
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tantek hey ben_thatmustbeme since you also got an indie /comms UI working on your site, have you looked into the JS that people (e.g. Tim at IWC Cambridge, lots of other sites) seem to use for the animated "Tap here to Add to Homescreen" on first load effect?
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tantek I tried to get it to work but couldn't, but couldn't figure out if that was due to its first load logic failing because I'd already been working on the page or not
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tantek this is the script that Tim and others all seem to use: http://cubiq.org/add-to-home-screen
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tantek I'd also like to work on editing the microcopy of its UI to be more indieweb person centric rather than assuming "web app"
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tantek e.g. instead of "To add this web app to the home screen:"
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ben_thatmustbeme i have not yet, but i will look in to it
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tantek we could put "To add me to your home screen:"
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tantek this is perhaps related to /icon and /homepage functionality
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tantek since you do first need to support /icon on your home page
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tantek and then it makes sense for all of us to have a script like this on our /homepage to start encouraging a people-centric UI per: http://tantek.com/2013/338/b1/people-focused-mobile-communication-experience#what-if-people
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, its commented out on your page, but its missing the actual function call it looks like
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ben_thatmustbeme it looks like the script should be super simple
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kylewm.com edited /Facebook (+550) "/* Duplicate Events Created without Confirmation */" (view diff)
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tantek there's an "actual function call"? I couldn't figure it out from the docs nor from Tim's example
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tantek what is comms?
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Loqi communication in the context of the indieweb refers to using your personal website as a starting point and potentially way for people to communicate with you http://indiewebcamp.com/comms
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tantek this? addToHomescreen({ detectHomescreen: true });
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, the code didn't kick back any errors on me
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ben_thatmustbeme although i didn't put in the detectHomescreen bit
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tantek ok just updated my contact.html
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ben_thatmustbeme that worked
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, should be getting an e-mail soon
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tantek it did? I still can't verify on my own ipod
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ben_thatmustbeme even if you clear cache / delete cookies
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ben_thatmustbeme it didn't come up when i clicked the button from home screen, only when I typed into a URL
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ben_thatmustbeme bar
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tantek I wish it had a debug mode
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ben_thatmustbeme i texted (well mms to emailed) you a screen shot
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tantek this is too difficult to get right / verify :(
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tantek which is kind of a fundamental barrier to having others get it working too
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tantek (just sharing my frustrations in the hopes we can come up with a better way to test this)
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: got it! whoa - that's cool that it works on Android too!
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tantek now to start changing the microcopy (which is *why* we need a test mode)
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ben_thatmustbeme it looks to just add #ath to the URL, but i cannot get it to forcably appear
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ben_thatmustbeme i'd imagine if i clear my full browser history it will work
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tantek that's kind of a pain
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tantek there should be a ?showath=1 or something
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tantek or heck, #showath
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tantek so it doesn't much up serverside caching etc.
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ben_thatmustbeme there is a debug:true option you should be able to add, still isn't working on non-mobile
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@HongPong RT @withknown: Webmention: an introduction for developers http://stream.withknown.com/2014/webmention-an-introduction-for-developers (twitter.com/_/status/524278874482294784)
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tantek in the function call?
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/12802152/363235400520063/724885424 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/12802152/363235400520063/508845493 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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tantek a-ha: addToHomescreen.removeSession()
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ben_thatmustbeme cannot get it to appear in desktop ever
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ben_thatmustbeme well i got it to appear on my page, but it was not loading well at all
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tantek can you try reloading mine?
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tantek and see if the text changes to "Add me to your home screen ..."
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tantek hmm - the android version now shows up in Firefox. and when Safari pretends to be iOS7 iPod - that shows up too
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tantek I used this test version:
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tantek var addtohome = addToHomescreen({
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tantek autostart: false,
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tantek debug: true
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tantek });
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tantek addtohome.show();
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ben_thatmustbeme its not showing up on android on reload
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KevinMarks__ It worked on chrome android
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ben_thatmustbeme i'm on chrome android.
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ben_thatmustbeme its very finnicky it seems
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neuro` Good evening
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tantek it tries very hard to not show up twice
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KevinMarks__ Getting chrome instructions on ff android
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tantek my guess is that it doesn't do chrome vs ff detection on android
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tantek but perhaps that can be improved
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tantek I can ask folks at work to try it on their FxOS devices and get suggestions :)
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tantek ok, "release" version deployed with comments left in the source (commented out "debug" version too)
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tantek now trying Clear History and Clear Cookies and Data to see if that helps on my iPod iOS7
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tantek force quit Safari Mobile via the multitasking UI
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tantek typed in my contact URL - no sign of animated dropdown. sigh.
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tantek why is this so hard to test?
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ben_thatmustbeme clearing cookies should do it
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ben_thatmustbeme the detect homescreen bit might have worked
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ben_thatmustbeme did you remove it from your Homescreen first?
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@voxpelli Finally write a post about the exciting Indie-Config work that came out of this years @IndieWebCampUK: http://voxpelli.com/2014/10/indie-config-overview/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/524286648863842305)
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@voxpelli Finally wrote a post about the exciting Indie-Config work that came out of this years @IndieWebCampUK: http://voxpelli.com/2014/10/indie-config-overview/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/524286929802514433)
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voxpelli There – spelled correctly :P
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tantek.com created /tragedy_of_the_comments (+270) "stub with citations, see also" (view diff)
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tantek voxpelli++ thank you for writing this up! will dig into it to try to get the button side of it working on my site before this week's HWC!
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Loqi voxpelli has 12 karma
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voxpelli tantek: Nice! I'll try to make a follow up post that digs more into the code as soon as possible, but I got the code on my blog working much better now
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tantek very cool voxpelli!
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tantek all updated for the latest <indie-action> tag and web+action: URLs?
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voxpelli tantek: I believe so – two separate files – one for each at: https://github.com/voxpelli/voxpelli.github.com/tree/master/js
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tantek kylewm ^^^ try to get it the indie-config side working on your site so you can click "Reply" on voxpelli's site
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gregorlove.com edited /tragedy_of_the_comments (+48) "dfn" (view diff)
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tantek a-ha I see <indie-action do="reply" … > in that very blog post http://voxpelli.com/2014/10/indie-config-overview/#conclusion - let's use that block of indie-actions as our test for indie-config
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kylewm tantek: clicking Reply on voxpelli's site has worked for quite a while
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tantek voxpelli: perhaps make that an explicit challenge at the end of your blog post
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voxpelli kylewm: now it also works in Chrome ;)
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voxpelli tantek: Good idea! Of course I should do that! :)
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cweiske voxpelli, did you see http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/webactions.htm ?
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tantek Ask people to try replying by 1) implementing indie-config on their own site!
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tantek and then 2) click the "Reply" button / icon at the bottom of the post
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kylewm it pops up a dialog asking which application to use to handle web+action, and works as long as I hit OK quickly
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tantek and to *only* send replies that way (rather than copy/paste URL into a form on your own website etc.)
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tantek cweiske++ for experimenting with alternative approaches
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Loqi cweiske has 16 karma
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tantek hey 2014-11-06 is the 10 year anniversary of Tragedy of the Comments
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tantek and we have a HWC meetup on 2014-11-05
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tantek perhaps we can make /comments, /webmention, /vouch, /block etc. the primary topic for that night in recognition of what have we built since?
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voxpelli cweiske: yep, saw it – interesting with different alternatives
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tantek also a good write-up on this: http://shirky.com/writings/group_user.html
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tantek on the tragedy of comments / conversational commons
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/12802152/363235400520063/14500255 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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cweiske I think it's important that multiple applications can register themselves for different actions. my calendar app should be able to handle RSVPs, my bookmark app likes/faves
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cweiske my blog replies
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tantek.com edited /tragedy_of_the_comments (+128) "cited inspiration" (view diff)
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tantek cweiske - have you built multiple applications to register themselves like that on your own site?
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tantek or is that currently a personal itch you're working on scratching?
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cweiske my bookmarking application handles web+like
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@ThatEmil RT @voxpelli: Finally wrote a post about the exciting Indie-Config work that came out of this years @IndieWebCampUK: http://t.co/RncAtCnrqD… (twitter.com/_/status/524291623719419904)
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cweiske my blog does not have a web interface, so I can only try to fire up emacs when the reply button gets pressed
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kylewm.com edited /mp-config (+1380) "add description from Micropub Brainstorming page" (view diff)
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cweiske didn't try that, though
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kylewm voxpelli: cweiske: I'd love your thoughts on this too http://indiewebcamp.com/mp-config
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voxpelli tantek: added call to action now + changed wording to "Reply" and increased timeout for better compatibility
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cweiske kylewm, I see "being logged in" as the big problem here
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tantek voxpelli: excellent! http://voxpelli.com/2014/10/indie-config-overview/#try-it-out
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cweiske I'm better off copy&pasting the url I want to reply to in my reply UI since it's faster
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kylewm.com edited /mp-config (+292) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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@kevinmarks RT @voxpelli: Finally wrote a post about the exciting Indie-Config work that came out of this years @IndieWebCampUK: http://t.co/RncAtCnrqD… (twitter.com/_/status/524292523838013441)
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tantek cweiske: you may be an exception - everyone else I've seen in person finds it faster / simpler / easier to click "Reply" and do so inline without any copy/window-switch/paste
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cweiske tantek, but then I have to be logged in to every blog I want to reply to
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cweiske which I am not
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cweiske since the indieweb is not a silo
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cweiske "but it does require the user to support micropub and be signed in on the site they are browsing."
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tantek right - indie-config avoids the "logged in to every blog I want to reply to" problem
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kylewm tantek: yeah crossing the streams here, he was refering to mp-config where you at least have to have indieauthed with the site in question
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tantek got it
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tantek voxpelli: you receive and show webmention comments on your posts right?
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tantek who's going to be the first to get indie-config & click "reply" on http://voxpelli.com/2014/10/indie-config-overview/#try-it-out working to post a comment there?
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kylewm.com edited /mp-config (+8) "/* Detail */ fix link to micropub#section" (view diff)
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tantek looks over in kylewm's direction ;)
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voxpelli tantek: Yes! Webmentions are fully supported
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tantek ok I'll keep reloading :)
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fiatjaf anyone willing to criticize or try out https://github.com/fiatjaf/microanalytics, my personal simplistic self-hosted pure-couchdb web-analytics tool?
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tantek did aaronpk ever document how he uses websockets to show real time comments?
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tantek what are real-time comments?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "real-time comments" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=real-time+comments
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kylewm.com edited /Micropub () "(-688) /* Action Handler Discovery */ add link to main article" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /real-time_comments (+87) "stub with link to aaronpk's post" (view diff)
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tantek voxpelli: what do you think of aaronpk's code he uses to show comments in real time as they get accepted? http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/10/13/1/realtime-indieweb-comments is that something you could deploy?
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tantek dang it's been a year since
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voxpelli tantek: Its something I want to do, but its on a long list of other stuff I want to add to my webmentions service :P
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tantek who is voxpelli?
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Loqi https://indiewebcamp.com/User:Kodfabrik.se
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tantek checks voxpelli'
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tantek list on his user page
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voxpelli Also: WebSockets is probably overkill for realtime comments, EventSource would be enough
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tantek voxpelli: consider adding that "long list of other stuff
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tantek to /User:Kodfabrik.se#Itches
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voxpelli tantek: Good idea
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tantek.com edited /real-time_comments (+59) "see also" (view diff)
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kylewm cweiske: thanks a lot for the feedback, btw. good point about it being faster to just copy paste than to go through indieauth for every site on the internet...
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tantek kylewm - nicely done! https://kylewm.com/2014/10/replying-this-way-is-so-amazingly-seamless-like-magic
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tantek kylewm++
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Loqi kylewm has 73 karma
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tantek this is the kind of UX advances we need to make with indieweb technologies to make them friendlier / easier for us as well as people used to silo UX
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ben_thatmustbeme oy, mp-config, indie-config, webactions. starting to wonder who will emerge victorious
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tantek next challenge - who's going to get posting such a reply to voxpelli's post working on their *mobile* device? (or did you already post that from mobile kylewm ? )
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tantek (and then of course post a video of the flow)
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kylewm no, that was not from mobile sadly
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tantek kylewm: it's ok, that just leaves another challenge for someone else (or you again :) )
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@jkphl @mstoiber05 Eben genau nicht. #Selfdogfooding und so, ne?! ;) http://indiewebcamp.com/selfdogfood +@textformer @sebo @jancborchardt (twitter.com/_/status/524296124245749760)
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tantek I'm guessing obra might get something to work via his Android intent handler app he built and showed off at IndieWebCamp Cambridge
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voxpelli kylewm: thanks for the reply :)
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tantek !tell obra what was the name of your Android intent handler app that shared stuff to Known to reply to, and can it also be configured to handle "web+action:" URLs?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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obra https://github.com/obra/known_client
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Loqi obra: tantek left you a message 33 seconds ago: what was the name of your Android intent handler app that shared stuff to Known to reply to, and can it also be configured to handle "web+action:" URLs?
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kylewm voxpelli++ of course! is the fallback to twitter based a timer now?
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Loqi voxpelli has 13 karma
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obra it's an android intent handler rather than a web intent handler
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voxpelli kylewm: Yes! 3 seconds – just added a loading-gif to show that its waiting (so now its playing Tetris while you wait!)
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tantek obra - pretty sure android intents can register to handle specific URL schemes
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obra it should be fairly straightforward to extend it to also dealing with proxying based on url scheme
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gRegor` Nice tetris 'loading' animation, voxpelli
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tantek obra, nice!
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obra tantek: if i recall the terminology correctly, activities can register
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obra http://stackoverflow.com/questions/525063/android-respond-to-url-in-intent is a trivial sample for handling http on youtube
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obra http://appurl.org/docs/android has other related resources
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GWG Good evening
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tantek obra this should be less work than that since it is "web+action:" not "http:"
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obra yes
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obra it's all doable
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obra there are a couple options for app design. one is just a 'shim' that launches a browser activity based on grabbing the right endpoints from your iw site
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obra another is what i actually want. a local app that wraps your indieweb site and consumes the urls internally.
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obra I really want a local known client, myself
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obra the tiny bit of code i wrote for that skeleton app defaulted to apache2. happy to cc0 it or whatever
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tantek obra - do you mean a local app that you would just enter your site URL and then it would hook it all up?
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tantek CC0 preferred IMO
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ben_thatmustbeme i found mp-config a lot easier to implement and doesn't require the promises bit, but it requires a login to know your mp-endpoint
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@sebo RT @jkphl: @mstoiber05 Eben genau nicht. #Selfdogfooding und so, ne?! ;) http://indiewebcamp.com/selfdogfood +@textformer @sebo @jancborchardt (twitter.com/_/status/524298691310411776)
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obra tantek: yes.
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tantek sounds pretty amazing
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obra CC0, MIT, 3 clause BSD. whatevs. I'll take a pull request to clarify that license if anyone cares
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tantek then the next question is, how to turn my site itself into a "web app" with its own "manifest" that claims to handle the web+action: "web activity", which then I can install on FirefoxOS
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tantek (quite a big step up from just "Add to Homescreen")
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ben_thatmustbeme perhaps a mixing of the two is what is needed. I like that it is my site that controls what app to use, I don't register a protocol on someone else's site (quill for example), but rather make changes to my endpoint that says where I should go. Perhaps we make the protocol handler point to our own MP endpoint, then its the clients we add to our list, and load the list via promise/iframe
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kodfabrik.se edited /User:Kodfabrik.se (+1026) "Added a working on / itches part to my profile" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme only mildy more confusing
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voxpelli ben_thatmustbeme: Promises bit?
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ben_thatmustbeme isn't that how you tell if the custom protocol handler is installed?
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ben_thatmustbeme Promise
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voxpelli ben_thatmustbeme: Well, one could and I wrote a quick one that did – but realized that was a bit overengineered so reverted to a simple callback-based loader now
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voxpelli will update the wiki with the new one
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ben_thatmustbeme so here is my problem with indie-config right now, i can't realistically have multiple apps (one for reply, one for edit, etc) http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/webactions.htm proposed an new handler for each, which would work, but i feel like its putting all the management of it on the client machine, not on the person
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ben_thatmustbeme mp-config puts all config managed by the micropub endpoint, but requires you to log in
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voxpelli ben_thatmustbeme: you very much can, you return one endpoint per action in the indie-config – the only thing you have to have is a single indie-config that specify them all
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ben_thatmustbeme what if we use web+action:// to point to the micropub endpoint, now you get the json list, just like with indieconfig but now its managed on server side
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ben_thatmustbeme voxpelli, thats what i'm getting at, but no one has implmented it that way yet, its all playing at "register this editor as your editor"
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voxpelli ben_thatmustbeme: No, everyone that I know ha simplemented a "reply" url that's used for replies
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techlifeweb kylewm: Thanks for your help testing my Known install
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Loqi techlifeweb: GWG left you a message 2 weeks, 4 days ago: https://david.shanske.com/articles/2014/10/02/site-setup/
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ben_thatmustbeme voxpelli, yes, but i'm saying it tries to set ALL
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voxpelli ben_thatmustbeme: not sure I understand what part is trying to set all?
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voxpelli there's a single protocol handler, that's kind of the point (Firefox though allows you to pick which registered one you want to use whenever a site asks for it though) – then that protocol handler returns any number of different endpoints that can handle any number of different actions – so far only a "reply" endpoint has been used to my knowledge
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ben_thatmustbeme no, i was setting mine up for reply, repost, edit, delete, undelete, new / create
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: I like that idea
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fiatjaf kamikaze
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ben_thatmustbeme voxpelli, rather than I go on to a MP client and it says "Set me as your handler", I log in to my site, and set my handler as my own config (ala mp-config) then when I go to a mp-client it asks (after i log in) if i want to use this client as my client for 'reply'
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ben_thatmustbeme if i say yes it updates my config via MP
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ben_thatmustbeme but only edits reply
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ben_thatmustbeme so the only time you would set the protocol handler is once per device
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ben_thatmustbeme and your settings are then shared across all your devices
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voxpelli ben_thatmustbeme: not sure how that would differ actually
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voxpelli but its getting pretty late over here so might just be me getting tired
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voxpelli need to read up on mp-config it feels like to understand the difference
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ben_thatmustbeme its more of difference in how things are handled, but it also adds the ability to query the config without the custom handler if you are logged in to a site
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ben_thatmustbeme pushes config to being managed not static too
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fiatjaf ?join #pocoo
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fiatjaf damn
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Loqi lolz
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ben_thatmustbeme gives loqi a high five for timing
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Loqi enjoys the high five for timing
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kodfabrik.se edited /indie-config (+253) "Updated with simpler callback based loader script" (view diff)
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voxpelli ben_thatmustbeme: but couldn't you expose that managed config through indie-config as well?
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ben_thatmustbeme not to the server, JS only
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ben_thatmustbeme which is kinda messy
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ben_thatmustbeme i'll try to implement it all and hopefully have something to show you by the end of the week
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voxpelli Feels to me like mp-config and indie-config is very much the same thing, one is accessed server-side the other client-side, but they both contain the same data for the same purpose
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voxpelli And that's great – there are use cases for both
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ben_thatmustbeme basically yes, they are very similar. I'm saying we can unify server side and client side quite easily. https://ben.thatmustbe.me/micropub?q=json_actions
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ben_thatmustbeme thats what i'm using right now
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ben_thatmustbeme indie-config was the basis of it
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ben_thatmustbeme but kylewm was trying to avoid JS / client side
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ben_thatmustbeme it works perfectly for me, and its very simple to implement, but it requires login
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voxpelli ok, cool – will be interesting to hear more about it
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voxpelli please ping me if you write something about it
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ben_thatmustbeme will do, keep an eye on the /mp-config i'm sure we'll be putting it all up there soon
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@jkphl @seenco > — even better — a @microformats tagged HTML (see http://microformats.org/wiki/Main_Page / http://microformats.org/wiki/h-feed) #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/524306448373661696)
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kylewm voxpelli: that's exactly the difference -- mp-config aims to do on the server exactly the same thing as indie-config does on the client
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voxpelli kylewm: great! :)
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@bru testing the twitter mention fallback for this indieweb comments solution... this is quite intriguing http://voxpelli.com/2014/10/indie-config-overview/ (twitter.com/_/status/524307271631659009)
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ben_thatmustbeme kylewm, did you try out my site with the pop-up version?
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voxpelli Oh, regarding my WebMentions implementation btw: I don't have Bridgy working on my blog so the fallback won't be as nice as it could have been :P
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ben_thatmustbeme i'm still querying json_actions
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kylewm ben_thatmustbeme: my implemetnation still requires an access token
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kylewm ben_thatmustbeme: ok i made it so you can query https://kylewm.com/micropub?q=json_actions without auth'ing
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kylewm but i still don't see links
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kylewm also heads up that https://ben.thatmustbe.me/author/1 returns an error
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cweiske ben_thatmustbeme, I see the point of central management
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cweiske which makes sense if you have web-only apps
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cweiske but I guess that the indieweb is about web apps only
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adactio I just got https://ownyourgram.com/ working with my micropub endpoint! https://adactio.com/notes/7701
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adactio aaronpk++ for creating a great service
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Loqi aaronpk has 587 karma
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kylewm adactio++ awesome! you didn't post this photo via ownyourgram though did you?
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Loqi adactio has 9 karma
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kylewm #gramception
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adactio kylem: Ha! The picture is of a test post, but yeah, it looks like I time travelled. ;-)
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kylewm oh you did!! this is definitely my favorite first OwnYourGram post
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GWG I need to make a list of everything I can't do easily.
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@adamprocter OwnYourGram send your instagram to your domain http://ownyourgram.com/ fantastic need to update http://www.adamprocter.org/ feeds @IndieWebCampUK (twitter.com/_/status/524318050384760833)
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KartikPrabhu_ look at all you productive people... while I am doing unproductive crap like installing stuff on new computer!
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GWG KartikPrabhu_: A worthwhile goal
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GWG I'm sitting here realizing that I need to build tools to quickly post notes as a higher priority because it takes me too much time to do it now, and that raises the barrier to quick thoughts.
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KartikPrabhu_ not really. this is just replacing my old one that died. after installing things I need to migrate data belh
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GWG KartikPrabhu_: Is it at least a nice one?
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KartikPrabhu_ can someone make something like a hardware progressive enhancement so that my old stuff just works on new computers?
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kylewm KartikPrabhu_: I want to know what distro you are installing, but you have to come to #indiechat so I can ask you
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GWG KartikPrabhu__: Microsoft tried that for years. But supporting legacy is hard
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KartikPrabhu_ does #indiechat have a beta browser chat log ;)
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kylewm ok you will have to casually drop it into on-topic conversation then
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KartikPrabhu_2 oh no too many mes
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kylewm GWG: it sounds like you need micropub
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GWG kylewm: I think custom post editors in WordPress is a more immediate possibility. It would take a long while to get MicroPub
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snarfed kylewm, GWG: if it matters, i definitely need/vote for micropub!
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snarfed KartikPrabhu_: re "hardware progressive enhancement," chromebooks do that
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snarfed (apologies if that sounds like trolling :P)
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GWG snarfed: I love Chromebooks...for some things.
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GWG snarfed: I vote for it to. I'm just not voting to write it right now
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tantek what is a Chromebook?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Chromebook" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Chromebook
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GWG snarfed: I stink at parsing.
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GWG I have a plan though
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KartikPrabhu_ tantek is bascially saying "go to indiechat" ;)
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GWG There is a php-mf2 parser. I want to learn the ropes of using it by integrating the ability to retrieve content on a reply context into my Indieweb Taxonomy plugin.
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GWG I figure if I get that working, I can go to the harder level
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fiatjaf what is micropub
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Loqi Micropub is an open API standard that is used to create posts on one's own domain using third-party clients http://indiewebcamp.com/Micropub
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GWG Can a client use an authentication method other than Indieauth and still use MicroPub?
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kylewm GWG: it doesn't have to be indieauth.com but it has to follow the same basic protocol, GET /auth with some paramters returns a code, POST /auth with the code to verify the user is who they say they are
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GWG kylewm: I just would, if I added it to WordPress, I'd want it to also support providing the code if I'm logged into WordPress already
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kylewm wordpress as an authorization endpoint would be really cool
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GWG kylewm: WordPress authentication has some weaknesses that are often fixed by plugin
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GWG For example, it does not lock accounts if you try passwords over and over again.
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gRegor` I'm kinda surprised account locking has not become a core feature yet
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gRegor` Given the install base and how targeted WP is as a result.
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GWG gRegor`: Me too. Especially after the botnet attacks
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kylewm nevertheless, getting wordpress to work as an authorization endpoint would be a good atomic/incremental step on the way to micropub
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kylewm of course you could just use indieauth
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GWG kylewm: Is that something that stands outside of MicroPub?
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kylewm snarfed: I'm curious, what do you want micropub for?
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kylewm GWG: yep the auth part is separate, some sites will use the authorization_point you define instead of indieauth.com just as part of regular sign-in
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GWG kylewm: I'd need to learn a lot more about how WordPress works for that, I think. At least the authentication part
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snarfed kylewm: posting? seems like many of the cool things people are making these days (e.g. indie actions, teacup, etc) use micropub
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tantek interesting, looks like snarfed found some awkwardness in how voxpelli is displaying likes: http://voxpelli.com/2014/10/indie-config-overview/#try-it-out
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kylewm he tends to do that
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snarfed tantek: yeah, voxpelli and i have seen this before. he's unusuall in that he shows both title/summary and content unless they're exactly identical
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snarfed more: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/287
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GWG snarfed: If I ever get to my interim plan of writing custom post forms that can be added to a custom page location using a shortcode, I'll tell you.
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tantek are yours not exactly identical?
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snarfed tantek: nope
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tantek I didn't think he had bridgy hooked up! (per his comment earlier in IRC)
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snarfed it's not bridgy
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tantek snarfed, I've written up an algorithm for this test of equivalence of title/summary and content
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snarfed tantek: https://kylewm.com/services/mf2?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsnarfed.org%2F2014-10-20_reclaiming-the-reply-with-indie-config-overview
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snarfed tantek: awesome!
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snarfed GWG: great! …why though? i'm probably missing context.
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snarfed (GWG: also, re stinking at parsing, why do you need to? that's what php-mf2, mf2py, etc are for, right?)
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GWG snarfed: I mentioned it a few moments ago. As an interim solution on the way to MicroPub.
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snarfed GWG: ah, got it
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tantek snarfed, hmm, and now not finding it trivially I'm thinking I need to put it on its own page
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@aorcsik IndieWeb advocates launch Known so bloggers can be social and still control their content https://gigaom.com/2014/09/11/indieweb-advocates-launch-known-so-bloggers-can-be-social-and-still-control-their-content/ via @gigaom (twitter.com/_/status/524327329925853184)
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GWG snarfed: Step 1, get some forms up for replies and new notes...basic preset functionality. Step 2, start replacing the plumbing.
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fiatjaf what is this micropub about? is it for publishing at your own website and syndicating to others' websites?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "this micropub about" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=this+micropub+about
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tantek found it
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fiatjaf isn't this the same thing as webmention?
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tantek snarfed: http://indiewebcamp.com/note#Note_Type_Algorithm
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tantek.com created /this_micropub_about (+26) "redirect from off the top of my head, let's see if this works" (view diff)
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GWG snarfed: I want to use them in a plugin. I've never used the libraries. I picked the lower bar of using php-mf2 to import reply context data as a good way to start.
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tantek ah, need to create a "Why" section on /Micropub
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snarfed GWG: looks like some of pfefferle's and jihaisse's wp plugins use php-mf2. could be good examples
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tantek snarfed - any suggested names for the algorithm for "title/summary and content ... identical?"
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GWG snarfed: Also learning some of the WordPress functions at the same time. Been slowly building up.
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snarfed tantek: thanks! forwarding to voxpelli, since he's the one who'd need to fully implement it (http://indiewebcamp.com/note#Note_Type_Algorithm)
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snarfed tantek: "equivalence" ?
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tantek can't tell if serious or making fun of me for asking for a name ;)
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kylewm tantek: I'll add my little heuristic for checking if p-name contains content -- which means it's probably the default implied name
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tantek kylewm - the equivalence test may apply outside of microformats, e.g. in legacy feed files - <entry><title> vs <entry><content>
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tantek hence phrasing it in terms of two strings seems best
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tantek I might even just implement it in cassis.js as a standalone function to help nudge this along
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kylewm just for reference https://github.com/kylewm/mf2util/blob/master/mf2util/util.py#L191
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snarfed tantek: heh, re equivalence, actually a serious suggestion. up to you though :P
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tantek snarfed - was just thinking that name is a bit broad. e.g. "equivalence algortihm" might be expected to do A LOT more than just check between title/summary/content.
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tantek kylewm, "explicit title algorithm" sounds pretty good, just wondering if "explicit" might get easily misinterpreted as implying some sort of keyword or other filtering
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kylewm lol, yeah that's a fair consideration
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kylewm explicit content algorithm :P
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tantek how about something along the lines of "entry name discovery" algorithm
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tantek or even "post name discovery"
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tantek which either returns the "explicit" name/title, or "" if there is none or if it was apparently automatically generated from content?
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snarfed tantek: oh, i was just suggesting the word "equivalence," not that it would be the full title. e.g. "title/content equivalence" alg. but i'm happy with anything!
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kylewm I like post name discovery -- more outcome oriented
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tantek just as we have authorship
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kylewm or wait, "title"?
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tantek title is too presentational, hence name
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tantek looks for a citation
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kylewm i would call it a "blog post title" not a "blog post name"?
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kylewm s/\?//
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Loqi kylewm meant to say: i would call it a "blog post title" not a "blog post name"
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tantek and we say "name" of that book / movie /song
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tantek we don't say "title" of that movie / song
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tantek darn mysql using "name" as a stopword :(
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kylewm I guess my problem with "name" is that every h-entry has a name, but not every h-entry has a title
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kylewm and we're trying to figure out if name is meaningful
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tantek or merely presentational
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tantek oh my goodness I totally missed that scottjension and adaction were making fun of my permashortcitations! https://twitter.com/t/status/521483269498744832
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@t #IndieWebCamp Cambridge hack day: * webmention with vouch receive flow chart * #indiecomms conditional Facetime button (ttk.me t4Ya2) (twitter.com/_/status/521483269498744832)
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tantek (check the comments)
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tantek sadly, the first one is spam!
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KartikPrabhu_ permashortcitations are just not recognized by anyone yet
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tantek KartikPrabhu: but that's "normal" for nearly everything new
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KartikPrabhu_ yup
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snarfed i'm not personally a huge fan of PSCs or PSLs, but fwiw, bridgy recognizes and handles them
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tantek the funny thing is that permashortcitations are an implementation of what lucasgonze was trying to (re)invent as "webmentions" (before he changed the name to srch URIs) https://medium.com/@lucas_gonze/webmention-uris-bec4e0dda3c6
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tantek snarfed - fair enough. I still have mixed opinions as well but for now am erring on the side of preferring an explicit breadcrumb, and avoiding a click target that provides no extra information to the user.
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tantek hence nothing < PSC > PSL for short posts for me
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adactio tantek: the problem is that because your permashort-thingy *isn't* a link, it isn't clear what it is. It looks like txtspk.
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kylewm this post would be way more convincing if it had a srch URI
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KartikPrabhu_ srch URI are quite some bit of over enginnering. similar to "search by class" in the URL or somthing
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KartikPrabhu_ thinks this has been discussed/debated before
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tantek it has
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adactio tantek: but then again, I said the same thing to Chris about hashtags. ;-) …I stand by my (unhashtagged) words!
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tantek adactio - the question is whether lack of clarity is worse or better than increased distraction from a link that goes to something with the same content
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tantek I mean, they're both forms of distraction, I see the permashortcitation as less-so than a permashortlink to the same exact content
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tantek less *distracting* that is
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tantek in terms of emotional design, I suppose I'm preferring confusion (over txtspk) over annoyance (over having clicked a URL and not seeing anything new)
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adactio tantek: why not just replace the space with a slash? Then it would look like a link (which it is), without being a clickable link (which doesn't lead to anything new).
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tantek adactio - ah, let me check my archives for when I used to do that, and then Twitter changed their auto-linker, thus actually making those clickable, and then I switched the space " " instead of the "/" )
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adactio tantek: i.e ((ttk.me/t4Ya2) instead of (ttk.me t4Ya2)
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KartikPrabhu_ i think twitter auto-links that
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tantek it does. I'm looking for the date they started to
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kylewm it's interesting that they autolink a bare ttk.com but not ttk.me
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KartikPrabhu_ i suppose my own auto-linking code will link that too
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adactio tantek: As it is now, it looks *kind of* like a link, but a human has to copy it, and then paste it, replacing the space with a slash ...only to find it leads to no new information. Surely that's more frustrating than just clicking?
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tantek kylewm they don't autolink bare ccTLDs
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tantek adactio - if anyone *is* doing that then yes, that is absolutely more frustrating. haven't heard of any actual reports of that though. only of confusion.
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KartikPrabhu_ it seems the problem is to say "here is original post with same content" vs "here is the original *full* post"
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adactio tantek: So in answer to Scott's question ("Is it for you or me? If you, why is it there?") it is there for *you* then, right?
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tantek KartikPrabhu: correct. hence original post same content -> PSC. original post more content -> PSL.
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tantek adactio it's also a clue that something else is going on. that you're looking at a copy, not an original.
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KartikPrabhu_ adactio: I disagree. I have used PSCs to find original post from ben_thatmustbeme 's twitter post
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tantek right - code can do /original-post-discovery on a PSC
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adactio KartikPrabhu_: can you give me an example?
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KartikPrabhu_ looking
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tantek adactio here you go, use-case: http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#prefer_original_posts
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KartikPrabhu_ adactio: this thread: https://twitter.com/kartik_prabhu/status/521051239048441856
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@kartik_prabhu @dissolve333 Yeah. But I wanted to make things too. Using this time to see how miserable posting from mobile is for me. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/521051239048441856)
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KartikPrabhu_ I used the PSC to find the original post and replied to that from my site here: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/indiewebcamp-mobile-posting-bad
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KartikPrabhu_ and webmentioned too so ben got the post from my site not twitter https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2014/10/11/6/
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adactio KartikPrabhu_: Right, but to do that, you had to copy, paste, replace (space with slash) ...instead of click.
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KartikPrabhu_ adactio: true. but if it was a link it could be interpreted as "here is more content"
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KartikPrabhu_ I don't have a good solution to this conundrum
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tantek adactio Twitter started auto-linking (ttk.me/t4EJ8) on 2011-10-11 (or maybe 1-2 days before hand). See https://twitter.com/t/status/122781208089346048 (no autolink), vs. https://twitter.com/t/status/123862277777661952 (autolinked)
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@t so many creative works to build, yet so much time-sucking brain-dulling logistics, paper forms, accounting work to do. (ttk.me/t4EF1) (twitter.com/_/status/122781208089346048)
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kylewm p3k does original-post-discovery when you reply to a tweet (I think) ... if there is a PSC in the tweet, then it finds the original automatically
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snarfed personally, i'm with adactio. i include a full link when there's more content, otherwise nothing
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kylewm no copy/paste
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snarfed (now that twitter t.cos everything, short urls are less useful. maybe mostly just offline now…?)`
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KartikPrabhu_ snarfed: I do that too but if there is nothing there is no way to find the original post is there?
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snarfed syndication links let you do the same original post discovery and are less confusing to users
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adactio What if there were to indicate that the link is metadata, while still having it look like a like (i.e. no space)? e.g #ttk.me/t4Ya2 ...except not # because that's already taken by goram hashtags.
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tantek snarfed - I do see PSC's as transitional, once a site includes more *functionality* that tweets (e.g. bridgy comments from other silos) then it's worth always having a PSL - because you do always have more.
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tantek s/that tweets/than tweets
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Loqi tantek meant to say: snarfed - I do see PSC's as transitional, once a site includes more *functionality* than tweets (e.g. bridgy comments from other silos) then it's worth always having a PSL - because you do always have more.
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snarfed the facebook "See Original" custom link we've used is a way better solution. wish twitter supported that
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KartikPrabhu_ I use the convention "more: full link" if there is more content
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snarfed tantek: eh. that's the one argument i can understand…but it's still just one factor. for me personally, the tradeoff still isn't worth it
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tantek snarfed - we have been asking for "See Original" style metadata / source since the days of Twitter annotations. deaf ears. :(
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snarfed confusing my followers isn't worth letting a small minority of them see that people liked the same post on FB etc
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snarfed tantek: yup!
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KartikPrabhu_ example of "more: " pattern: https://twitter.com/kartik_prabhu/status/516128025440555008
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@kartik_prabhu I suggest that abuse-prevention can be solved by usual methods+UI @kyle_wm @t @joeld @gRegorLove #indieweb more: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/webmention-abuse-suggestion (twitter.com/_/status/516128025440555008)
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tantek adactio I appreciate the effort put into thinking of alternatives e.g. #ttk.me/t4Ya2
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tantek wonder what that would be like without a shortdomain, e.g. #tantek.com/t4Ya2
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snarfed agreed on minimizing short domains. less confusion for users
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snarfed (honestly i wonder if we need them much at all any more, at least for online use cases)
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tantek what is a short domain?
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/short-domain
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tantek snarfed - by offline do you mean print?
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KartikPrabhu_ would like to know how many people have written permalinks on paper and if they find full URLs cumbersome.
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tantek snarfed, real world needs / use-cases here, which I will now add a few more too: http://indiewebcamp.com/short-domain#Why_personal_short_URLs
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snarfed tantek: sure, or spoken
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snarfed tantek: yup, i've seen that. we've discussed arguments against the first three points here. (all links are the same length on twitter now; PSCs are debatable UX; syndication links are arguably as good for original post discovery, maybe better)
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snarfed tantek: so only the last one compels me personally
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tantek snarfed, right - I'm expanding the fourth
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snarfed great!
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tantek I keep finding more cases of that - and will expand (likely split) accordingly
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snarfed and even for offline, short links to specific posts seem more compelling than just the domain
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snarfed anyway, gotta run
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KartikPrabhu_ thinks of making URL redirects on own site that takes a syndication copy as parameter and finds original post
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snarfed thanks for wikifying!
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snarfed KartikPrabhu_: ooh i like it!
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@ShaneHudson @schofeld @marcoarment I have no plans to bide my time. No time to bide. That's why I like #indieweb, my website - my responsibility. (twitter.com/_/status/524340809379110912)
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snarfed although the common use case is it's a recent tweet, so you just look at the front page or top of replies, and it's visible
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snarfed usually good enough
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KartikPrabhu_ snarfed: true
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dunlaps.net edited /events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club (+2) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /short-domains (+1288) "/* Email IM SMS print */ split into: Entry length limitations (add scenarios), and Easier to use" (view diff)
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dunlaps.net edited /events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club (-1) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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tantek ShaneHudson: do you think http://www.marco.org/2014/10/20/wsj-twitter-peace-offering is worth adding to /Twitter#Criticism ?
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ShaneHudson Very much so, will add it :)
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tantek Thank you!
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu_ Is your webmention db schema on the wiki/your site anywhere?
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gRegor` As I'm working on this updated plugin, I'm curious about other people's schemas
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tantek !tell snarfed documented a few more short(er) URL (thus domain) use-cases: http://indiewebcamp.com/short-domains#Entry_length_limitations
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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dunlaps.net created /Template:dariusdunlap (+640) "Created page with "== my indie web setup == * http://dunlaps.net/darius is my primary home where I post ** [[notes]] and [[POSSE]] them (abbreviated if necessary) to: *** [[Twitter]] - https://twi..."" (view diff)
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tantek hmm dariusdunlap - you using a personal template unlike how everyone else is?
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dunlaps.net edited /Template:dariusdunlap (-247) "/* my indie web setup */" (view diff)
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gRegor` Looks like User: and Template: mixup
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gRegor` "The problem is still the complete power over an increasingly important communication medium residing in a single company and its single centralized service." Marco on Twitter
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tantek !tell adactio your suggestion is very close to what I discovered a couple of years ago - Twitter does not hashtag-link nor hyperlink #http - e.g.: https://twitter.com/t/status/225102430981988354
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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dunlaps.net edited /events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club (+6) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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tantek hmm - what if I started using #http://ttk.me/t4Ya2
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sparverius url shorteners :(
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tantek I know both my auto-linker and our /irc/today auto-linker is smart enough to auto-link the URL *without* the #
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tantek sparverius, not all of us can have a 4 letter .com ;)
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sparverius no i mean, they're brittle
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tantek sparverius - some are. the sources of brittleness are discrete. separate company running them, using database IDs for the brief gibberish.