#indiewebcamp 2014-11-17

2014-11-17 UTC
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pdurbin tanteking. heh
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tantek.com created /introductions (+31) "r" (view diff)
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@mshook Jon at Known #known #judell #indieweb #november #2014 (twitter.com/_/status/534136581867569152)
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GWG tantek: That you would be showing contacts based on logged in status. It was based on your work. But, being as login is often automatic, how do you know what a person wants you to not share?
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tantek GWG - where/how were those UI thoughts captured on the page?
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GWG http://indiewebcamp.com/private_posts
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GWG I just started
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Loqi [mention] https://dubiousdod.org/indie/2014/11/repost-of-indiewebcamp-com-procrastination linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/procrastination (webmention)
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@mshook Jon at Known http://judell.withknown.com/ #judell #known #withknown #indieweb #november #2014 (twitter.com/_/status/534138859152371712)
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GWG I need to work on my wikifying
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GWG What's the link for HWC this week? I want to try my first RSVP
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kylewm hey this week is the one-year anniversary of HWC
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kylewm GWG: http://kylewm.withknown.com/2014/homebrew-website-club-19-november-2014
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rascul maybe we could do hwc online?
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GWG kylewm: Didn't work. Can I get some assistance?
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kylewm GWG: RSVPs are reply posts just like a normal reply, so you should have u-in-reply-to instead of u-rsvp
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ben_thatmust what are you guys working on?
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ben_thatmust i'm back
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "you guys working on" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=you+guys+working+on
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GWG Give me a moment. I can fix that
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kylewm and then p-rsvp is yes no maybe
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rascul i'm pondering what next to add to my site
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ben_thatmust vouch?
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ben_thatmust :P
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rascul i would need first webmentions
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rascul hrm
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rascul maybe that's the answer!
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kylewm rascul: micropub?
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GWG Just found a code problem. One second
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kylewm rascul++ just noticed you added navigable urls
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Loqi rascul has 27 karma
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rascul i did?
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GWG I will get it fixed
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rascul oh, yeah, today i think
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ben_thatmust oh, webmentions would be a good thing to add
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rascul i was (slowly) working on redoing a bunch of code since iwc cambridge, and now it's about done and other things are easier to do :)
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tantek.com created /Template:GWG (+17) "r" (view diff)
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rascul gonna read up more on webmentions and see what to do for it
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tantek.com edited /Template:GWG (-10) "rt" (view diff)
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GWG Okay. I thought I fixed it.
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GWG kylewm: Still nothing.
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tantek.com edited /wikifying (+2357) "expand with Why and How to with specifics for User pages, incremental, new pages" (view diff)
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kylewm GWG: now your p-rsvp is part of the h-cite
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tantek GWG, kylewm for your review ^^^ /wikifying
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kylewm is reading about Gogs, a "self-hosted Git service written in Go", whose code is hosted on github
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GWG kylewm: Thank you. That requires a bigger rewrite. I added in RSVP, but the plugin was originally designed for responses. I hard-coded the h-cite.
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kylewm GWG: you could just stick <span class="p-rsvp">yes</span> in the post body... that's all I do
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rascul likes gogs
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GWG kylewm: Still no.
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@FirstGlanceFilm RT @HOUSEDwebseries: Have you liked our #Facebook page? https://www.facebook.com/HOUSEDthewebseries #webseries #SupportIndieFilm #indieweb #comedy #horror #fun… (twitter.com/_/status/534145539990749185)
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kylewm GWG: markup looks good, I dunno why it's not working https://david.shanske.com/notes/2014/11/16/attending-homebrew-website-club-first-time/
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GWG Where's the webmention form on a Known site?
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kylewm curl?
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kylewm that did it
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kylewm but it thinks your name is "Web user"
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GWG Interesting
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tantek what does indiewebify.me say?
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GWG I figured it out.
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GWG I'm coding a fix.
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GWG The Status format of my site, the one with the picture of me when I post, links to the author url. But that page does not have an h-card.
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GWG It should link to the site or not link at all.
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kylewm.com created /session_facilitating (+1859) "Created page with "<dfn>Session facilitating</dfn> refers to facilitating a brainstorming session at an IndieWebCamp event. Session facilitators are responsible for setting the discussion topic/goa..."" (view diff)
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kylewm.com created /facilitating (+34) "Redirected page to [[session facilitating]]" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /session_facilitating (+37) "added See Also section" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /2014/Introductions (+27) "/* See Also */ added session facilitating" (view diff)
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kylewm GWG: I don't quite understand what the issue "Web user" issue is... Indiewebify.me likes your markup just fine
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GWG kylewm: I think it was because it picked up the link to /author which is the WordPress default. I fixed it
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aaronpk can you post the link to the hangouts URL here?
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aaronpk I haven't been able to figure out how to join from the G+ page
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rascul same here
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GWG https://plus.google.com/events/clpal02gasf2t8mfg5kltuuhino
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GWG https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/hoaevent/AP36tYemLGReW3tDiSiMsKUTeiVGCpkRPrB_BUGe0QLNG3YP7bmpLg
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GWG I think this is the Hangout
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GWG Final Call for Hack Demos.
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GWG All attendees should be in the Hangout
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tantek nothing to demo, just the writeup on the /wikifying page - HTH
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GWG If you want to just watch...
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GWG http://youtu.be/9HJ3Qc_aTQ8
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GWG That will give you the video feed once it is up, I believe
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aaronpk sadly has nothing to demo, just writing up notes on micropub today
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GWG We are live
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thedod_ http://codepen.io/thedod/pen/yyLGyO/left
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GWG thedod is demonstrating templating in Mustache to format webmentions from the IndieWebCamp wiki page.
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme is demonstrating some improvements in his MicroPub implementation.
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aaronparecki.com edited /Micropub-brainstorming (+726) "document field types and how to remove fields" (view diff)
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GWG rascul is now presenting his sites...chainging his permalinks
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rascul i did more, but talking to a computer is weird and i forgot the other things :(
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GWG aaronpk typed up his notes from the MicroPub Session.
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aaronparecki.com edited /Micropub-brainstorming (+253) "adding values" (view diff)
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david.shanske.com edited /2014/Online (-139) "/* IndieWebCampOnline 2014 */" (view diff)
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GWG This now concludes IWC Online 2014.
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tantek Thank you GWG!
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GWG Thank you ben_thatmustbeme
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tantek GWG++ !!!
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Loqi GWG has 31 karma
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GWG Not sure what the next event will be, but I think this was a format worth exploring
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GWG We learned that Hangouts on Air is great for demos.
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GWG Does work somewhat for sessions.
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GWG And now its onward to...DC? Providence? NYC?
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rascul votes for dc
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/DC
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aaronpk hopeefully can get more interest!
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GWG I was in DC on Friday
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GWG I would attend DC if I could. But there is no...interested but not organizing section
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kylewm cool https://twitter.com/sil/status/534141257292193792
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@sil @adactio nice summary. I really would like to get back to posting on one's own site, and blog-to-blog conversations (ping: @AaronGustafson:) (twitter.com/_/status/534141257292193792)
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thedod Sorry. Internet went down towards the end of the event
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thedod anyway, respect to GWG and all of you. I really enjoyed it
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GWG I enjoyed it as well.
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pdurbin GWG: this was the virtual event?
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GWG pdurbin: Yes
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pdurbin cool. glad it worked out
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GWG pdurbin: You were welcome to show.
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pdurbin yeah, I think you mentioned. so busy. sorry
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GWG pdurbin: You can watch the video.
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kylewm whoa, I think you can't log in to the Instagram website without allowing Facebook Connect
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GWG Interesting
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tantek.com edited /2014/Online/Sessions (+72) "/* Wikifying */ wrote up notes" (view diff)
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@xtof_fr @isabelleartus un post de contexte de @dangillmor concernant #indiewebcamp http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2014/04/25/indiewebcamps_create_tools_for_a_new_internet.html - á jeudi @MutinerieCrew (twitter.com/_/status/534330036468211714)
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@Japh @DeFries The IndieWeb plugin, and a bunch of the plugins it recommends. It’s quite cool :) (twitter.com/_/status/534331374295998464)
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@IndieHosters Great article about #IndieWeb http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2014/04/25/indiewebcamps_create_tools_for_a_new_internet.html from @dangillmor thanks @xtof_fr for sharing! (twitter.com/_/status/534331391346237441)
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tommorris.org edited /advocacy (+50) "specifying the sort of problems we mean" (view diff)
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@Japh @DeFries Yup, that’s it! https://wordpress.org/plugins/indieweb/ (twitter.com/_/status/534335087500746754)
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@DeFries @Japh this one https://github.com/indieweb/wordpress-indieweb ? (twitter.com/_/status/534334897876635648)
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@ryanhellyer @Japh @DeFries What on earth does that plugin do? It just says it's "The IndieWeb version of WordPress' Jetpack plugin". (twitter.com/_/status/534338240275554304)
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tommorris pfefferle: ^^
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pfefferle tommorris ???
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pfefferle ahhh
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pfefferle haven’t seen the tweet :)
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tommorris I'm interested too. I may download WordPress and test out the plugin at some point.
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pfefferle :D
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@SimoneKisiel RT @HOUSEDwebseries: Have you liked our #Facebook page? https://www.facebook.com/HOUSEDthewebseries #webseries #SupportIndieFilm #indieweb #comedy #horror #fun… (twitter.com/_/status/534364234969530368)
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bnvk hello all you ppls I haven't chatted with in awhile
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tommorris hey bnvk
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bnvk tommorris: ahoy :)
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tantek welcome back bnvk!
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snarfed hi bnvk!
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bnvk tantek: snarfed: thanks :)
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@LifeHealthDiary #bigdata is transformative when gathered fm multiple silos @ individual person level - especially in #healthcare. #OwnYourData (twitter.com/_/status/534378054400102400)
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GWG pfefferle: Thank you for the pull requests yesterday. I still have that question for you though.
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pfefferle GWG your welcome… thanks for fixing my bugs so fast :)
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pfefferle GWG can you reask your question?
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GWG pfefferle: I was hacking on it at the time
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GWG pfefferle: Is it worth filtering comment_class in semantic linkbacks in order to add mf2 markup or should that be left to the theme, do you think?
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pfefferle GWG I tried it completely via wordpress filters/actions, but there are not enough of them
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pfefferle GWG that’s why I replaced the comments via SemPress
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pfefferle GWG but we can add some more through the semantic-linkbacks plugin
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GWG pfefferle: And I just updated Semantic Comments, my comment replacement, to replace the comment walker entirely.
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GWG pfefferle: My issue is always trying to figure out the right level in the chain for an event to occur.
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GWG So, should something be generalized and put in semantic linkbacks or specialized elsewhere?
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pfefferle do you have an example for a class you want to add?
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GWG pfefferle: My proposal is that comment_class should be filtered to add the linkback type as a class to the comment.
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pfefferle ah ok… like ”žlike“, ”žrsvp-yes“ or ”žrepost“ ???
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GWG pfefferle: Yes. I thought about doing it elsewhere, but I thought it made sense to do it in the plugin.
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pfefferle I think this should be part of the plugin, because the plugin sets all these types…
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pfefferle GWG good idea!
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pfefferle GWG++
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Loqi GWG has 32 karma
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GWG pfefferle: That was what I was thinking. Wanted to get your opinion before I wrote it up and sent over the pull request
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pfefferle GWG should we prefix them?
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GWG You mean u- and p-?
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pfefferle like the post classes: type-like
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GWG Well, type is a reserved word.
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pfefferle I don’t think p- or u- is a good idea, because it is no property or url
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pfefferle we can use h-as-* perhaps
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GWG Would work thogh
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GWG h-as-like h-as-favorite, etc?
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pfefferle yes
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GWG Okay. Will write the code when I get a chance.
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pfefferle is there a list of the activitystreams object types that will come with spec 2.0?
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GWG pfefferle: I'm not sure.
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GWG I can't find one
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rascul has photo posts now :) https://rascul.io/boosie/in-bed-with-toys
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mko Nice, rascul.
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mko rascul++
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Loqi rascul has 28 karma
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tantek rascul++ nicely done!
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Loqi rascul has 29 karma
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tantek views source
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GWG pfefferle: http://wiki.activitystrea.ms/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder&param=Verbs maybe?
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pfefferle but these are only the verbs
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mko Interesting. You include the caption as part of u-photo?
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rascul i'm not really sure if i'm doing it right
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tantek rascul: you have <span class="u-photo"><img src=""> but that's not doing what you think
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mko rascul: I'm pretty sure u-photo should be on the img, not the container around it.
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tantek "u-photo" is implying you mean for the property to be parsed for a URL first, then text second
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tantek thus yes, what mko just said
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GWG pfefferle: http://wiki.activitystrea.ms/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder&param=Object%20Types Maybe this?
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rascul oh
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rascul fixes
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tantek e.g. see http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https://rascul.io/boosie/in-bed-with-toys
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pfefferle GWG better :)
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pfefferle GWG http://activitystrea.ms/registry/object_types/
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pfefferle GWG but that doesn’t really help ;)
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tantek pfefferle: always start from IWC wiki for such things, e.g. /activity-streams :)
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GWG pfefferle: I can't figure out the one for a generic mention
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tantek.com created /activity-streams (+29) "r" (view diff)
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notizblog.org created /Activity-Streams (+31) "redirect to ActivityStreams" (view diff)
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tantek :)
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notizblog.org edited /Activity-Streams (-2) "Redirected page to [[ActivityStreams]]" (view diff)
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pfefferle :)
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tantek in general, AS is a good source for previous research, but should not be used as any kind of canonical list of types - because they're based in "wants" - not cited research of existing examples and implementations implementing publicly.
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kylewm rascul: I really like how minimalist your html is. almost no classes that aren't for mf2
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tantek indeed
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GWG is still not sure what classes to use
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tantek as few as possible
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rascul kylewm the site generator uses mf2 internally also
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GWG tantek: Semantic Linkbacks generates the code for the different types of responses, but doesn't mark them up. That is what I want to add, but need a simple clean markup
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rascul tantek i have class="u-photo" on the img now but it still isn't showing up http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https://rascul.io/boosie/in-bed-with-toys
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rascul maybe i'm missing something else also
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tantek wow - nothing is showingup - are you blocking pin13? or doing UA-based sniffing/blocking?
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rascul not at all
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pfefferle try to paste the html source here http://pin13.net/mf2/
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pfefferle the url version seems broken
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kylewm rascul: https://kylewm.com/services/mf2?url=https%3A%2F%2Frascul.io%2Fboosie%2Fin-bed-with-toys
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rascul waterpigs gets it also https://waterpigs.co.uk/php-mf2/
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rascul looks like just pin13 isn't working then
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tantek aaronpk ^^^
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@AaronGustafson @aaronpk Any chance I could snag a webmention.io account? I’m interested in integrating it on an Octopress site. (twitter.com/_/status/534394431768915968)
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@AaronGustafson @aaronpk Any chance I could snag a webmention.io account? I’m interested in integrating with Octopress. https://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/10/18/2/bordernone (twitter.com/_/status/534394789152948224)
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@jkphl RT @AaronGustafson: @aaronpk Any chance I could snag a webmention.io account? I’m interested in integrating with Octopress. https://t.co/Wi… (twitter.com/_/status/534396550030819328)
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@border_none RT @AaronGustafson: @aaronpk Any chance I could snag a webmention.io account? I’m interested in integrating with Octopress. https://t.co/Wi… (twitter.com/_/status/534396550064373761)
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aaronpk oboy, probably ssl errors with pin13
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rascul broke it :(
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tantek tommorris: would appreciate your review of /wikifying in the context of the indiewebcamp community
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tommorris tantek: in wikipedia-land - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Wikify#How_to_wikify :)
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tommorris also, my Eye-Fi arrived today. I'm going to play around a bit this evening to see if there is an easy way to have my pictures go from my camera straight to somewhere I control on the web.
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tantek tommorris: that WP page is good general wiki editing advice, which I tried to avoid with /wikifying
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tantek and rather focus on aspects of /wikifying that are more in the spirit of what indiewebcamp is about
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tantek selfdogfood, scratch your own itch, etc.
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tommorris tantek: yeah, just pointing out the potential namespace conflict, to ensure we are clear that if they aren't the same, we should document that.
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tantek they are the same
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tommorris a lot of people apply Wikipedia assumptions to anything Wiki-ish. :)
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tantek right, ours already has the namespace of indiewebcamp.com :)
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aaronpk tommorris: I believe the eye-fi relies on their cloud service, but can upload to an FTP server
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tantek not SFTP?
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aaronpk probably supports sftp, I kind of assume that when I say ftp now
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aaronpk point is it's not like it goes directly from the card to your server
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tommorris aaronpk: got the Pro one. was more thinking of having some scripts on my desktop, or some processes on my phone, to do the auto-upload.
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aaronpk ah yeah, if you are in range of a computer and your computer is connected to the card's wifi then it goes direct to your computer
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tommorris I mostly bought it so I can quick-post stuff from my phone while out-and-about. seems silly to be taking both a good photo and a phone snap. :)
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aaronpk but that ties up the wifi connection of your computer so you wouldn't get an internet connection that way
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aaronpk without another network card
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tantek.com edited /wikifying (+313) "Related Articles, WP" (view diff)
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tantek why not EyeFi + MiFi?
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tantek thanks tommorris - added the ref to WP wikify
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tommorris EyeFi + iPhone + posting to my own site in Safari is a good first start.
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aaronpk eyefi + mifi would mean the camera can upload via the cell connection any time which is cool, but still relies on eyefi.com
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aaronpk just depends on how much you don't want to use their servers
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aaronpk I really don't mind because it's not like they store the photos or anything
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tommorris my use case is this - back on 2014-03-29, I posted this https://tommorris.org/posts/8872 - I would have liked to have taken it with my decent camera (X-Pro1), then posted it to my own site from my phone, with the photo hosted on my own (sub)domain.
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tantek what is EyeFi?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "EyeFi" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=EyeFi
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tommorris.org created /EyeFi (+752) "new page" (view diff)
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tommorris ooh. https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/camerasync/id406645727?mt=8 - 1.99 GBP app that promises background image upload to S3. S3 lets you set up an SQS queue to notify you of every upload. this means you could actually have your website have access to all your photos and post them relatively easily.
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aaronpk orly
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aaronpk i'm skeptical
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aaronpk flickr supposedly does auto upload but it's not very good
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tommorris Dropbox's auto-upload works reasonably well.
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aaronpk dropbox's is the best
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aaronpk they actually use the background location things to wake up and upload photos when you move around
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aaronpk major hack but it works
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tommorris I'll test it out. My plan is dump everything into an S3 inbox. then have some code that handles the file from S3 (makes sized images, notifies web server). ideally, I'd take a photo, then go to my site and it'd already be there ready to post into my stream.
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tommorris that said, customer reviews on that app look pretty crap
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aaronpk the US one has more reviews https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/camerasync/id406645727?mt=8
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aaronpk huh i'm tempted to try that out
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aaronpk it's $3 USD tho, not exactly cheap
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aaronpk hey it supports webdav! you could write a webdav handler on your web server to do all the processing immediately!
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aaronpk hm I was *this close* to resurrecting my dropbox->flickr sync script but I might just try this instead
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tantek Wednesday's HWC will be 1 year of HWC meetups!
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aaronpk omg
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tantek looks like Portland is not happening? :/
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aaronpk unfortunately I have another event that evening
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tantek can you find anyone else to help run Portland HWC? co-host?
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sparverius i feel like photo auto upload should be solved in terms of battery usage
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aaronpk meh I chew through so much battery that I don't even care if it adds to the usage
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sparverius if wifi then upload. if mobile and not low battery then batch and upload lower res version.
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aaronpk no way! I definitely want the full-res always
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sparverius well upload the full res later
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tantek sparverius - what what if wifi AND mobile (i.e. mifi) ?
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sparverius since most phones have a data cap
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tantek it's not so either or
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sparverius well you cant reasonably know if you're on a mifi or not so fuck that use case
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sparverius i mean you can but
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tantek check what IP your coming in from etc.
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sparverius yeah but that's hacky
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tantek same way that freenode requires SASL from mifis
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sparverius and most phones dont need a mifi
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tantek but it's done in practice
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tantek so it must be somehow doable - just need to care
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sparverius i mean if you hook your phone to a mifi, the expected behavior is that the phone's going to act like it's on wifi
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sparverius and id rather have a slightly worse but consistent behavior than really smart but occasionally messes up
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tantek expected behavior - whatever is best for the user :)
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reedstrm there's also diff. use cases: live post just for personal archive/control, and live post to avoid loss-of-picture if loss-of-camera occurs (equipment failure or 3rd party action)
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sparverius yeah, i have been thinking about that
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sparverius for the former, as long as it happens eventually (within a day), i think it's fine
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reedstrm An option to ship a low res as 'better than nothing' seems like a good thing.
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sparverius for the latter, the compressed version is part of the reason for that
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sparverius i think as devices become more location aware, you'll be able to fold things like "if !connectedToFitbit then ohShitIveBeenLost()"
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sparverius but anyways tldr the reason ive been thinking about it is that i set up a new phone, and google plus photo always gets my compressed images, but i dont really think of those as "backed up"
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reedstrm hehe: I want to see the code for that later method :-)
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sparverius and im using that doubletwist photo sync which seems to work well, but i'd love for it to be over the internet vs requiring that i'm at home
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sparverius incidentally, my phone has a 20MP camera and can shoot 4k video, so bandwidth and cpu/battery usage for compression are becoming real issues :/
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reedstrm sadly, the pixel count wars have subsided in real cameras, but continue in phone-attached-cameras.
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reedstrm s/real/single purpose/
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Loqi reedstrm meant to say: sadly, the pixel count wars have subsided in single purpose cameras, but continue in phone-attached-cameras.
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sparverius reedstrm: it's a really good sensor, pixel count aside. they're using it to compensate for lack of physical zoom... for better or for worse :/
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sparverius but im seriously running into issues with self hosting regarding bandwidth usage
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reedstrm right - it's all about the glass (lens systems) theses days. That's an interesting trade, though. Esp. if they squeeze in OIS
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sparverius sony seems to think super highly of their camera software, so much so that if you unlock the bootloader, you lose the drm keys for it
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reedstrm Sony thinks super highly of anything they license to you: and even your own stuff. cf: sony root kit
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sparverius actually in the case of their phones, they've been extremely open, even sending code back to AOSP before releasing the new OS
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sparverius im okay not having proprietary stabilization if it means i can have cyanogenmod and appops
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reedstrm Huh, that's good to hear. Typical big-corp with many personalities, I guess.
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sparverius yeah it's why i bought a sony. it was basically that or OPO or nexus or motorola, and none of them made phones that i could use with one hand
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reedstrm prehaps this should be #indiechat :-)
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sparverius good call
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GWG Camera talk I see.
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GWG Hi, snarfed.
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snarfed hey GWG
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GWG How are things?
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GWG Hello, KartikPrabhu.
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KartikPrabhu hi
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GWG KartikPrabhu, I was inspired by your site.
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KartikPrabhu that's a good thing :P
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aaronpk man flickr has been getting really unreliable for me lately
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aaronpk and now that I think about it, some of the main reasons for using it in the first place no longer apply
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aaronpk mainly the integration with mac apps like Skitch, and a host of good upload tools
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GWG KartikPrabhu, I do spend a lot of time looking at design elements.
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KartikPrabhu GWG: what did you gt inspired by?
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GWG KartikPrabhu, I rewrote my Facepile code to separate by mention type.
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GWG I was looking to update the design.
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KartikPrabhu I see
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GWG Also I put in a toggle for a comment form. In case I want to bring it back.
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GWG Yesterday was a busy day.
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GWG KartikPrabhu, I obsess sometimes about details.
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@bretolius @AaronGustafson @aaronpk https://webmention.herokuapp.com is another option. (twitter.com/_/status/534438652344950784)
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tantek good afternoon #indiewebcamp!
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GWG Good afternoon.
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reedstrm good day to you all.
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snarfed congrats on running IWC online, GWG! (and ben_thatmust!)
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snarfed looks like it was a success
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bret yeah thanks GWG and ben_thatmustbeme !
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme++
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bret i wasn't able to make it due to school :(
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme has 30 karma
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bret GWG++
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Loqi GWG has 33 karma
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Loqi aww, cheer up
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bret ben_thatmustbeme++
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Loqi dude
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snarfed GWG++
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ben_thatmustbeme karma fest
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: I don't they are giving you enough.
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bear ben_thatmustbeme++
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme has 31 karma
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bear gwg++
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Loqi gwg has 34 karma
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bret tantek: were you planning to use that for posting code diffs?
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bret re http://tantek.pbworks.com/w/page/21743973/Whistle
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bret 13:24 <tantek> bret - yes, *all* kinds of diffs
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tantek http://tantek.com/w/Whistle#design specifically 'd' for "diff, edit, change"
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tantek yes, all kinds of diffs
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tantek a diff post is a special kind of reply, that indicates a set of suggested changes to the post it is replying to.
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tantek what is a diff?
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Loqi An edit (AKA diff, change) is a type of post http://indiewebcamp.com/diff
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bret thats a page i have never read
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tantek oh hey I should expand that dfn
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bret basically the idea that popped into my head was posting of a git patch to a permalink
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bret marking it up, so that the diff is identifiable and adding action buttons
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tantek.com edited /edit (+180) "expand dfn to be more specific" (view diff)
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bret would be a lightweight form of a pull request, and totally comparable with indieweb flow
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mko bret: I've actually got a "pull-request" template type already made, but not implemented because I've not had a reason to do it yet.
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tantek bret - perhaps you could add that as a new user scenario subsection to the Why section of /edit : http://indiewebcamp.com/edit#Why
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bret mko: sweet! i'm not sure the target of the WM yet... maybe if I have a permalink page for a repo/branches on my site (with syndication links to GH)
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bret tantek: yeah good call
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tantek I vaguely recall some brainstorming about how to do edit posts
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mko Maybe. I don't know how you'd syndicate a PR to GitHub really.
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tantek how to publish them
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tantek however I don't remember what we said
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tantek and I didn't see anything captured on the wiki
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tantek so it can't have been that clever/important
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tantek or perhaps we thought we could re-brainstorm whatever we came up with
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bret mko: you wouldn't have to. but then again this is all getting super complicated.... just making a post with a single diff of a specific repo would be enough.
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bret tantek: there is some documentation about how to mark up post update edits.. you and barnaby have that iirc
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mko Hm. I guess so.
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tantek bret - oh? I forget where
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reedstrm bret: simple is important, but scaling to a more complex workflow is good, too.
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bret i wast just looking at it the other day
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reedstrm a text diff and a code diff may be very diff. animals. ...
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bret reedstrm: git diffs/patches are just a block of text iirc
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reedstrm yes, but context is everything.
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bret tantek: edits/updates via ins del html elements.... https://waterpigs.co.uk/articles/blogging-policy/ briefly mentioned here http://indiewebcamp.com/posts and i have seen you use it on older posts
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tantek that's different - ins/del are for inline edits
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tantek / updates
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tantek an actual edit/diff *post* itself would (should need) not contain the entirety of the original - though I suppose that's an easy but dumb way to do updates/edits.
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tantek just a complete replacement e-content for whatever it is in-reply-to
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bret.io edited /edit (+347) "/* Why */ Added "Lightweight Pull Request" Idea" (view diff)
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tantek perhaps if the in-reply-to URL had a fragment referring to a specific paragraph id, then the edit post could contain "only" the replacement for that entire paragraph
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tantek perhaps if the in-reply-to URL had a fragmention referring to a specific phrase, then the edit post could contain *only* the replacement for that entire specific phrase
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Jeena gives you a musictipp: Kavinsky - Outrun | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXqX-YmzIRI&list=ALGLx1orRGw4VFssRxdpoKLufHn_TMNM6b
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bret :) i like it..... crosses fingers the ##fragmention is specific enough
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Jeena fuck wrong chanel
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tantek perhaps if the in-reply-to URL included *two* fragmentions referring to a specific start and end phrase, then the edit post could contain only the replacement for that entire range of content from start to end phrase
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reedstrm tantek: have been thinking about adding that very bit to an editor API we're using - eventually to support sync with simultaneous/collaborative editing
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reedstrm gotta be careful about the underlying structure, of you do two pointers ...
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bret this is an example of a git patch file: https://gist.github.com/bcomnes/544a3373834d3ee73b75 its just text, so posting it to a permalink with a target url would be what is required to send a WM-pr
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bret what the target should be.... i'm not sure. the easiest would just be a page representing the repo.
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bret the diff specifies the parent commit
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reedstrm bret in the context of the repo, yes.
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aaronpk sending a post with the diff would not be a webmention
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aaronpk a webmention would be hosting the diff on your site, the nsending a webmention with the two URLs
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reedstrm aaronpk: yes, that's how I see it.
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aaronpk the source would need a basic mf2 structure that contained the target URL as well as the patch file
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bret Right. Was trying to say that basically ;)
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aaronpk like <div class="h-entry"><a href="example" class="u-target"></a> <pre><code class="u-diff"></code></pre></div>
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aaronpk s/u-diff/e-diff
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Loqi aaronpk meant to say: like <div class="h-entry"><a href="example" class="u-target"></a> <pre><code class="e-diff"></code></pre></div>
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tantek except I question putting the patch in a separate file and not just inline in the post
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aaronpk that's what I meant, in the <code> block
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tantek not sure why so many classes are needed either
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tantek we already have "e-content"
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aaronpk well you need something to indicate that this is a patch, not just a post of regular text
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tantek pretty sure it is workable with just *one* new classname, similar to like/repost
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reedstrm tantek: isn't the patch inline in the <pre><code> section in aaronpk's example?
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tantek like u-update-of
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tantek which implies that the e-content of the edit post should replace the e-content of the in-reply-to URL
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tantek or lacking an e-content at the in-reply-to URL, the entirety of what is at that URL
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tantek no need for u-target - there's already u-in-reply-to
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tantek also - why prematurely optimize the markup for just code? I'd think little prose wiki edits would be more common
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tantek hence why I documented those use cases on /edit
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tantek note that by "simply" (re-)using u-in-reply-to, you can reply to /edit posts as well with another /edit post - to patch a patch as it were
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tantek and for any client that doesn't understand edit/update semantics, they'll still show it sensibly as a thread
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reedstrm tantek: I'm not seeing this as the serialization format for an edit-mechanism. Coders can talk in patches, much like maths type talk in mathematical statements and proofs. A patch can be a statement of it's own.
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reedstrm Or am I a rep. of a fading dinosaur class, for reading patches? :-)
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aaronpk ok here's an example
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aaronpk https://rawgit.com/aaronpk/3fff660616ab04c660f9/raw/cb23153f6c79b33f5ccc14af58ccc24797d8a8e0/pull-request.html
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aaronpk that's basically this: https://github.com/aaronpk/p3k-core/commit/78aea731f5bb2564cffe155c9ac9591ccc43cef4
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reedstrm right -perfectly readable for me, even though I don't know the codebase. I'd +1 that or sign off, or extend the discussion w/ a short form post rebmentioning back to it, etc. W/o having to apply it to a repo.
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tantek aaronpk, I'm not sure replicating a specific software's one-off textual diff format is a good longterm strategy
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tantek e.g. does it even have a MIME type ?
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tantek text/x-github-patch ?
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tantek or something?
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tantek MediaWiki diffs look much more readable
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tantek for example
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reedstrm Exactly: the 'comment' box there should be my own.
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aaronpk I don't understand what you mean
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tantek yes!
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aaronpk that's the standard patch file format
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tantek lol standard patch file format
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aaronpk lots of tools support it
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reedstrm tantek the format isn't github's it's git's - it's a standard patch w/ amil headers for some extra metadata
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tantek URL to the standard for this patch file format?
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Jeena it is the diff format
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reedstrm s/amil/email/
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Loqi reedstrm meant to say: tantek the format isn't github's it's git's - it's a standard patch w/ email headers for some extra metadata
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Jeena it is diff in a mail
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tantek hey if you're going to call it "standard", you're going to have to provide a URL to said "standard".
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reedstrm I'm sure it's part of the SUS , no need for scare quotes
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Jeena http://linux.die.net/man/1/patch
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tantek here is a more readable "edit" post presentation IMO: http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=edit&action=historysubmit&diff=15471&oldid=12034
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reedstrm http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/diff.html
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tantek Jeena - thanks, that's at least a man page for implementation "patch" of said "difference listing"
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aaronpk i would hate to have to parse that mediawiki html to apply the diff
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tantek and reedstrm - again, that's software documentation, not a format spec
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aaronpk but yeah i'm all for prettying up the presentation of the diff file like github does
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reedstrm I find the context diff more directly readable, as well.
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tantek aaronpk - I'm not advocating the format of the mediawiki HTML!
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tantek I'm pointing out the *presentation* is better
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aaronpk sure
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tantek than that text line diff thing
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aaronpk but you need something machine-readable underneath
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tantek sure, that's what we're good at figuring out here
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tantek however you must start with something human readable on top
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tantek like *nicely* human readable
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tantek saying, here's a diff text thing, good enough, is as bad as the pingback folks with there "… nonsense …" text
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aaronpk i dunno, i read the diff format all the time when i'm coding, it's not that bad. certainly github's red/green coloring is better but...
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tantek exactly, and some people read MIME headers, or .vcf, or .ics or CSV, or some other one-off text format
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tantek and we don't pick those because the UX sucks
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Jeena tantek but doesn't github offter this nice frontend for diffs you're talking about when you say nice representation?
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aaronpk also I suspect there are plenty of open source libraries for generating pretty html versions of diff listings
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tantek we instead pick something where the UX is fairly *good* (competitive with the best in silos / software out there), and then make sure there's markup underneath to make it machine readable. not vice versa
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tantek Jeena - then cite the new frontend views of diffs from github that you speak of
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aaronpk that's basically waht i'm getting at with this whole exercise... started with github's diff view (link I gave previously)
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Jeena 23:15 aaronpk: https://rawgit.com/aaronpk/3fff660616ab04c660f9/raw/cb23153f6c79b33f5ccc14af58ccc24797d8a8e0/pull-request.html
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Jeena 23:17 aaronpk: that's basically this: https://github.com/aaronpk/p3k-core/commit/78aea731f5bb2564cffe155c9ac9591ccc43cef4
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tantek oh second link
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tantek I only clicked the first
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aaronpk exactly. i was proposing markup that could be added to github's diff URL to make it mf2 parsable
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aaronpk also note that github's version is actually the diff format but just styled with css. it even has the + - markers
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tantek ok - that probably should get captured on the wiki as an example then
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tantek because that's not obvious at all
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Jeena it says: commit 78aea731f5bb2564cffe155c9ac9591ccc43cef4 ;)
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tantek aaronpk can you add to http://indiewebcamp.com/edit#GitHub ?
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tantek aaronpk, the commit you pointed to - looks different than an *edit*. It looks like a *collection* of edits.
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tantek this thing: https://github.com/aaronpk/p3k-core/commit/78aea731f5bb2564cffe155c9ac9591ccc43cef4
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aaronpk it's a single edit of multiple files
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tantek collection of two edits
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aaronpk a pull request URL is a collection of multiple edits
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tantek ok
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reedstrm tantek: you didn't read down: yes that's a man page format, but it's also IEEE Std 1003.1 2013, and give complete implementable details in the STDOUT section, complete w/ IEEE 'shall' language.
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tantek is that also a "changeset"? or is that something different?
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Jeena hm but it is not easy to find a description of the diff patch format
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tantek reedstrm - right, it was tl;dr, too many pages to scroll down to see anything relevant so it looked just like more software docs
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reedstrm Jeena - I feel your pain. I think the links we both found are in fact it.
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tantek a format spec should be self-standing
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aaronpk for example this pull request contains 7 commits (edits) https://github.com/esripdx/geobin.io/pull/100/commits
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tantek it shouldn't need to be embedded in some specific software documentation!
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aaronpk this might be close to a spec: https://www.gnu.org/software/diffutils/manual/html_node/Detailed-Unified.html#Detailed-Unified
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tantek is it implementation dependent? or is there a test suite for it and other implementations?
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tantek "Unified Format" - nice name. heh.
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aaronpk oh hey http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-gdiff-19970901
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aaronpk no that 's not the same thing
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tantek and this is why we ask for URL to standards
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aaronpk baha http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=164293
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aaronpk "I couldn't find a thorough spec for the format called "unified diff" so I decided to research it. Here are my findings."
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tantek looks for commondiff.org
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Jeena hehe I found http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=164293 which states: "I couldn't find a thorough spec for the format called "unified diff" so I decided to research it. Here are my findings. "
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tantek oh hey look at that - commondiff.org is available - who wants to write and post / host the spec? ;)
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aaronpk oboy
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reedstrm That's 2006 - the Open Group I think they had another name w/ Unic in it then) was making you pay for docs back then.
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reedstrm Unix
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tantek what is standard patch file format?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "standard patch file format" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=standard+patch+file+format
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aaronparecki.com edited /edit (+146) "/* Silo Examples */ add example of a github diff URL and clarify pull requests are a collection of commits" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /edit (+117) "pull request / patch is a *collection* of edits" (view diff)
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bret i was just presuming the diff contents would be diff format agnostic.
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bret with the primary idea of just doing git patch style diffs (for code)
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tantek bret - hence I proposed a simple *non* diff format
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tantek that is, an update / replacement
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aaronparecki.com edited /webmention.io (+205) "add link to jekyll plugin" (view diff)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: you coming to Chicago HWC? http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-11-19-homebrew-website-club
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KartikPrabhu oh hmm yeah rSVPing now
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@aaronpk @AaronGustafson added to the wiki! http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention.io#Use+with+Jekyll (twitter.com/_/status/534476348480163840)
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Loqi [mention] http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/11/17/3/webmention linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention.io#Use+with+Jekyll (webmention)
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tantek and is anyone coming to HWC SF? http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-11-19-homebrew-website-club#RSVP
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tantek s/anyone/anyone else/
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Loqi tantek meant to say: and is anyone else coming to HWC SF? http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-11-19-homebrew-website-club#RSVP
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kartikprabhu.com edited /events/2014-11-19-homebrew-website-club (+13) "/* RSVP */ me me" (view diff)
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bret the the type of diff is really decided by the target... which knows what it represents to some degree... i.e. received a wm with a diff in it... I am a git repo.. therefore this can only be a git patch diff... or this is a diff.. I'm a note, so this can only be some kind of prose diff... apply if approved and valid format
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@AaronGustafson An open question to the #indieweb: http:///notebook/2014/what-do-we-own/ +@adactio @Pinboard @jkphl @border_none (twitter.com/_/status/534477350713700352)
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tantek bret - that's as silly as saying the type of the note is decided by the target
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tantek the target is only a POSSE destination
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tantek so if it needs something specific, like a proprietary API call, then you do that as part of POSSEing to it
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tantek you don't contort your own site into whatever *a* POSSE destination needs
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benatkin_ I'd like to go to the HWC. friggin' startup though :/
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@nialljthompson RT @AaronGustafson: An open question to the #indieweb: http:///notebook/2014/what-do-we-own/ +@adactio @Pinboard @jkphl @border_none (twitter.com/_/status/534478065632415745)
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benatkin might still be able to make it
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bret i think I'm not making sense
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bret bbiab to clarify
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tantek what ^^^ that /notebook/ domain doesn't make sense
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aaronpk it's a relative redirect that is missing the host :(
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aaronpk oh it's hosted on github pages. they do weird stuff.
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reedstrm http://aaron-gustafson.com/notebook/2014/what-do-we-own/
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tantek bret - I just think it's a bad idea to start posting stuff that's more machine than human readable
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@aaronpk @AaronGustafson awesome! Now if you connect https://www.brid.gy/ you'll start seeing all your Twitter replies as webmentions! (twitter.com/_/status/534478580592300032)
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tantek bret - just look at all the design work that aaronpk has done to post nice human undertstandable aaronparecki.com/metrics - instead of just raw lists of lat/longs, or other CSV data dumps
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tantek same reason you shouldn't be posting raw plain text diff files
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/534476348480163840/534477459451023360 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention.io#Use+with+Jekyll (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/534476348480163840/534478580592300032 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention.io#Use+with+Jekyll (webmention)
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bret right it wouldn't be raw.... it would be styled after the PR thread opening post
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bret like on github
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aaronpk yeah basically i'd add some tags and css to make it look like github. I think the mf2 parser would even result in the plaintext diff-compatible format as the "text" of the e-content
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Jeena hm my comment doesn't show up on aaron-gustafsons website, I wonder if this is my or his fault
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aaronpk Jeena: could be mine as well ;)
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Jeena uhm why your? I assume you are not Aaron Gustafson?
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aaronpk cause he's using webmention.io
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aaronpk oh i think he might need to regenerate the jekyll site
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aaronpk cause they're not brought in via javascript
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Jeena ah
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bret diff code could start collapsed as well
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@jeena @AaronGustafson I tried to answer via a webmention but it doesn't show up on your website, is it my fault or your? ;) (twitter.com/_/status/534481234895069184)
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aaronpk there we go https://twitter.com/AaronGustafson/status/534481345482096640
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@AaronGustafson @aaronpk Next I need to add the JS-based streaming support (for between publishes). (twitter.com/_/status/534481345482096640)
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@AaronGustafson @aaronpk http://webmention.io/api/mentions?target=http://aaron-gustafson.com/notebook/2014/what-do-we-own/ Not seeing anything. (twitter.com/_/status/534481872206979072)
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bret i want to post a gif of a screen cap going to File -> Print as an answer to permanence
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aaronpk lol
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tantek bret - how about print to laser etched titanium sheets? you know, just in case of fire
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reedstrm http://rosettaproject.org/
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reedstrm from the Long Now folks :-)
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tantek now if only the Long Now folks would actually host their media somewhere more permanent instead of on silos
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tantek audio, video, etc
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snarfed tantek: obligatory: http://longserver.org/
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snarfed (doesn't address your complaint; just related)
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tantek snarfed, given the audio/video storage at archive.org - seems like an obvious thing