#indiewebcamp 2015-01-03

2015-01-03 UTC
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tantek
yeah! he kicked butt! a whole lot of ownyourdata going on there
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tantek
way more than his commitment.
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tantek
talk about underpromise and overdeliver. goodness.
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snarfed
the "Elsewhere online" section on the left of his front page https://aribadernatal.com/ is interesting
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snarfed
pesos lifelogging from a bunch of places. i'd guess they were mostly manual, but the github activity makes me second guess that
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npdoty
any ideas on how to handle “et al”?
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aaronpk
oh neat, that's like a mini version of what I had on aaron.pk
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tantek
npdoty - would need context of a specific example to understand
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npdoty
when there are many authors on a paper, citation formatters often give the first two names and then “et al.” to cover all the rest
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npdoty
"Doe, J., S. Smith et al."
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tantek
npdoty it depends on how crazy you want to get
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tantek
if there is only *one* author left out by the et al, you could use <abbr class="p-author h-card" title="Author Name">et al</abbr>
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npdoty
I guess an abbreviation with the title attribute being a comma separated list of the other authors would be pretty useful, anyway
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tantek
if "et al" represents multiple people then yes, that
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npdoty
okay cool, thanks
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tantek
however 'title' can't contain markup itself
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tantek
thus if you wanted to embed some sort of markup for everyone else, you could either do so invisible (with empty abbrs, yuck), or experimentally with a nested HTML document in the 'data' attribute of an <object> tag.
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tantek
(experimental, not part of how microformats2 are parsed right now, however could be if there enough demand / real world examples)
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tantek
snarfed, aaronpk the "Elsewhere online" is also a JS embed - I wasn't seeing it until you pointed it out and I allowed some scripts to execute
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tantek.com
edited /2015-01-01-commitments (+528) "ari done and so much more"
(view diff)
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kylewm
his site appears to be pulling tweets out of the archive you can download from twitter
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@t
reviewing 2015-01-01 #indieweb commitments; super impressed with what @aribadernatal shipped! https://aribadernatal.com/2015/01/01/homebrew-website-2015-edition/ (ttk.me t4Zx2)
(twtr.io/ugX_rkHrhw)
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tantek
and it looks like I broke my u-in-reply-to code hmm
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tantek
that's odd - no delete button on my tweets for me :/
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KartikPrabhu
it is hidden in the gears icon now
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tantek
yeah just found it
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KartikPrabhu
ellipsis not gears
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bret
sneaks into tanteks house and moves the forks into the cupboard
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KartikPrabhu
tells tantek to look for fork under the gears icon
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tantek
it's like that zeldman post :/
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tantek
goes to see what he broke when radically simplifying his storage format / code.
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kylewm
which zeldman post?
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tantek
gah - he broke permalink the titles of posts on his home page
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kylewm
aren't lots of stories about Steve Jobs along those lines?
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tantek
ok let's try this again
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@t
reviewing 2015-01-01 #indieweb commitments; super impressed with what @aribadernatal shipped! https://aribadernatal.com/2015/01/01/homebrew-website-2015-edition/ (ttk.me t4Zx2)
(twtr.io/ugZ9G14jNR)
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tantek
hah! old bug. not new. phew.
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danlyke
I will keep my comments on the Zeldman piece to noting that I had to hit ctrl-- a few times to read it, and wish he didn't waste all that inter-line whitespace.
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KartikPrabhu
impossible to visual-design for everyone.
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: especially for variances of visual impairment
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KartikPrabhu
yup. but the new "em" units are very handy. and people can then zoom in/out or set browser text size as they want
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prtksxna
Most modern browsers are able to resize with px units too.
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KartikPrabhu
prtksxna: yup. but it is good practice anyway
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prtksxna
definitely
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danlyke
So has "em" in CSS been fixed? For me the way that's been completely broken has long been the most dramatic failure of CSS.
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tantek
danlyke what about it do you find "broken"? perhaps it's a documentation problem?
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KartikPrabhu
i don't find much broken about "em" in CSS. it behaves as it should I think (not tested in IE or Safari though)
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danlyke
It's never been either square or the width of an "M" (ie: the definition we used when I used to hand-set cold type), and on some of the stock fonts it ends up horrendously wrong. It's been years since I said "screw this, I'll never use it again" (and years since I touched CSS for more than minor tweaks), but it's never been usable as a base unit the way it should be.
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tantek
I'm already itching for another post type. /quotation - when I want to like an article but also post a quote from it, without comment.
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tantek
danlyke: that sounds like you have a problem with particular font's metrics rather than CSS
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tantek
em is defined very simply in CSS as whatever the font-size is set to
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tantek
so when you specify other things in ems, it's just math
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tantek
ems are definitely square when used (vertical or horizontal equivalence)
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tantek
the width of an "M" thing is a font-metric problem, not a CSS problem
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tantek
particular fonts can be broken that way, but not CSS
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danlyke
I remember thinking that's the way it should work (ie: set to the font size, it's square), but didn't. It could simply be that the core MS fonts were largely broken.
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tantek
very possible
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danlyke
Maybe I'll dive back into CSS, although my sites largely work, and now that Ctrl-+ and Ctrl-- work I really don't care.
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tantek
as it should be
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danlyke
My only "wish I could easily override" is line spacing, since most "designers" slap way too much whitespace on to their pages for me.
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tantek
I'm going to try to like an article with an h-cite and see what happens
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KartikPrabhu
danlyke: maybe the line-height thing could be fixed by some browser setting. that would be nifty... I would use it to increase line space on most sites though ;)
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danlyke
KartikPrabhu see, if I had my druthers I'd still be reading sites in Lynx. JavaScript broke the web.
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tantek
danlyke - some of us are still pushing for plain text first design ;)
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KartikPrabhu
danlyke: blame the handyman not the tools :) JS is way over done
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danlyke
tantek I'm all for that!
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KartikPrabhu
progressiveenhancement++
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Loqi
progressiveenhancement has 1 karma
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danlyke
KartikPrabhu it's kinda like the cyclist's view of automobiles: Sure, we can blame individual drivers, but in the end it's the entire culture of careless endangerment that's the problem. So it is with web design.
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danlyke
But, yeah: Lynx first web design.
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KartikPrabhu
danlyke: yes. the "culture" is the problem. but it seems to be going back at least a bit now. Most web design experts seem to be pushing heavily for progressive enhancement
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tantek
however most web devs appear to be pushing for single page apps and JS all the thigns.
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danlyke
Yeah. And, let's face it, Facebook and Twitter are indeed beating the blogs. Just because I hate humanity's preferences doesn't mean it isn't the direction of the masses. Sigh.
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tantek
danlyke: blogs fell behind (functionality) FB & Twitter, so that's no surprise. that's what we're fixing. :)
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danlyke
tantek yeah, i just need the occasional reminder :-)
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danlyke
G'night, all, I'm gonna shut this down and head home.
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KartikPrabhu
CSS does define units very thoroughly and they are different from what print people would expect. E.g. a pixel is not a physical pixel. But the CSS definition is pretty sound
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tantek
well until I can post a /quotation I'll just post a /like for now and deal with the fact that a like of a non-tweet does not get POSSEd to Twitter (because that would get annoying fast I suspect for Twitter followers)
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kylewm
if I asked what's actually wrong with js frameworks and client-side rendering, is that like asking if vi is better than emacs?
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: I do something like this: https://twitter.com/kartik_prabhu/status/542885961361682434 for those cases
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@kartik_prabhu
like of : http://vimeo.com/98953952 Putter (noun): a putter-togetherer of scissors.
(twtr.io/tsCAEWW0f_)
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: no. so ask on :P
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snarfed
kylewm: we had a pretty solid discussion debate about it a few weeks ago
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snarfed
(i had somewhat the same q)
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kylewm
what's actually wrong with js frameworks and client-side rendering? assuming you have a proper router so things exist at urls
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kylewm
snarfed, were you satisfied with the answer?
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snarfed
much of the conclusion seemed to be, JS frameworks highly correlate with bad/no url design and with poor performance
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KartikPrabhu
man twitter's scroll is badly broken. In the above tweet everytime I scroll down the video from vimeo is re-requested!
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snarfed
(ecounterexamples
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snarfed
(er, sorry. counterexamples include e.g. gmail for url design)
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: nothing wrong with client-side rendering as long as it can still be accessed without JS at some URL
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snarfed
if you preserve url design and performance, people seemed to agree that JS/client apps are much less bad
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snarfed
ah yes, that was the other point. for public-facing content sites, e.g. our indieweb sites, JS largely prevents machine parsing
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kylewm
bustle.com is a neat js app that feels like it isn't
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snarfed
for private or semi-private web*apps* like gmail etc, you don't have that concern
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kylewm
except it's fast
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KartikPrabhu
i like adactio's hijax approach
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kylewm
hmm, I do not automatically agree that sites should always return content as html without javascript; will need to think about that
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snarfed
the last discussion is worth finding. KartikPrabhu, i think it started with a pro-js manifesto link you posted...?
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snarfed
(trying to think of what to search for)
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tantek
snarfed - another counter-example is FB especially their mobile site.
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snarfed
tantek: interesting. fb is definitely both content site and "app"
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snarfed
ducks out to feed the baby
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: also JS breaks much more easily being a programming language.
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tantek
kylewm: the canonical example is games - where without dynamic interaction it doesn't make sense. however, for many games (e.g. turn based ) - there's no need for JS to make it "work"
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KartikPrabhu
if you forget a semi-colon, boom no content
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tantek
I feel like this has been documented
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tantek
what is a single page app?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "single page app" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=single+page+app
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kylewm
yeah KartikPrabhu I don't buy the semicolon thing, but I've head my head beaten in by C-like languages for 15 years
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tantek
ah, there's a growing stub within https://indiewebcamp.com/antipatterns
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu, also JS has missing semicolon repair, but I take your point
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snarfed
kylewm++ if you don't even trivially test your code, you shouldn't deploy it at all
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Loqi
kylewm has 92 karma
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: yes i remember reading that a while back
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tantek
snarfed: didn't stop XML. *ducks*
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KartikPrabhu
snarfed: true. but that was only illustrative. many other things could go wrong. Some browser does not support the latest ECMA script functions and again no content
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: last time adactio was in SF I posited a defn for web app that made him go hmm (didn't agree nor disagree, just made him think)
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: oh! that would be good to know/post
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tantek
hmm I suppose I should post it
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snarfed
KartikPrabhu: sure, agreed, browser compat is no fun. but the reasonable fallback is progressive enhancement, not not content. no sense in arguing against the dumbest version :P
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KartikPrabhu
snarfed: yes. JS with prog.enhance is good definitely
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kylewm
i just read another essay about how Python 3 is XHTML
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KartikPrabhu
i use it for marginalia.js so I can't say no JS ever :P
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KartikPrabhu
and I also use it to load images on my site so...
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kylewm
"Because as it stands, Python 3 is the XHTML of the programming language world. It's incompatible to what it tries to replace but does not offer much besides being more “correct”."
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: from your own code, I have seen that it is posible to write pretty robust code to support both pythons
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tantek
kylewm: sigh. they mean it's the XHTML2 - not XHTML
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KartikPrabhu
similarly JS should be written as an enhancement to HTML+CSS. I see no good argument against that.
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tantek
right, and good JS is
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu, in fairness it was written about Python 3.2 which was harder to write backward compatible stuff with
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KartikPrabhu
which reminds me again to put some better prog.enhance. in marginalia.js
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KartikPrabhu
goes to fix dinner
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KartikPrabhu
or as snarfed said "time to feed the baby (myself)"
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kylewm
collects links from this discussion for further study
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tantek
which I've now added as a comment on that adactio article
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tantek
interesting side effect of drastic simplification of my storage format, feeling like posting more
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GWG
tantek: I'm all for that
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tantek
like seriously I don't remember the last time I posted this many things in a day: http://tantek.com/2015/002/
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tantek
even if most of them are likes
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GWG
Like many things, ease of use encourages use.
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tantek
well said :)
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GWG
That is why I keep trying to make things easier.
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tantek
And why selfdogfooding is important - then you feel where things aren't easy and work on them.
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GWG
I'm still working on fixing the theme.
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tantek
hey at least you *have* a theme. I don't even have a theme (abstraction), much less even templates (except for my home page, which is built from a template).
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GWG
Well, you started from scratch
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GWG
I built on others
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tantek
it's kind of surreal receiving replies from people I don't know who are using Known *and* POSSEing their replies with threading automatically to Twitter! E.g. https://twitter.com/jnymck/status/551194992924844032
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@jnymck
@t So basically any site w/ a contact form is an "application"? Do sites on 3rd party hosted services like .. http://jnymck.withknown.com/2015/t-so-basically-any-site-w-a-contact-form-is
(twtr.io/ugfMcV8M7C)
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tantek
(nevermind that our icons look very similar :P )
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ben_thatmust
HAHA, successfully getting an auth key. I should be able to post in no time
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Loqi
ahaha
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ben_thatmust
cordova++
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Loqi
cordova has 1 karma
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aaronpk
good evening
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GWG
Good evening, aaronpk
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aaronpk
!tell tantek: re /quotation : That's what I use bookmarks for. e.g. http://aaron.pk/b4Zx2
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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aaronpk
whoa @jnymck and @t's icons look very strangely similar
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aaronpk
both have glasses, black hair, are positioned slightly to the left of the frame
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prtksxna.com
edited /IRC_People (+111) "/* Nicknames */"
(view diff)
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KartikPrabhu
prtksxna++
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Loqi
prtksxna has 2 karma
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prtksxna
KartikPrabhu: Will add some microformat support soon :)
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prtksxna
Also, I am not doing status messages right. I am using the wordpress title instead of the content. That is stupid because it doesn't let me add links and stuff…
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KartikPrabhu
yeah that sucks
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KartikPrabhu
content would be thing to use
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prtksxna
Yeah and then enter the permalink slug manually. I already have to edit it anyway.
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KartikPrabhu
prtksxna: maybe auto-generate slug from content?
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prtksxna
KartikPrabhu: Yup that'd make sense, but just start using content for starters :)
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KartikPrabhu
yup. baby steps
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@kevinmarks
@strngwys you could pay them on your own site and share to fb and vine #indieweb
(twtr.io/uh6eTq9BPk)
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@kevinmarks
"@strngwys: Who do I blame for Vine’s not posting as videos on Facebook? Vine or Facebook?" silos gonna silo #indieweb
(twtr.io/uh6irEqsWw)
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@kevinmarks
@seanbonner we have the #indieweb pieces
(twtr.io/uh7TaKpitc)
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@sgerrand
RT @t: 2010: notes on my site before Twitter 2013: @-replies 2015: faves before Twitter Join the #indieweb and #ownyourdata. (ttk.me t4Zx1)
(twtr.io/uh8K3nUrV5)
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tantek
I'm already considering iterations on my clustered likes design, having "lived with it" for only a few days.
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Loqi
tantek: aaronpk left you a message 5 hours, 7 minutes ago: re /quotation : That's what I use bookmarks for. e.g. http://aaron.pk/b4Zx2
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tantek
aaronpk - indeed. It's very tempting to re-use/repurpose already implemented post types for additional post types, and they sorta can work that way too.
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tantek
however there are the dual problems of capturing author intent - i.e. what's the *focus* of the author's post, and explicitly allowing for / hinting at / encouraging post kind specific display
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tantek
in those ways I think a /quotation post type deserves explicitly different treatment than a /bookmark
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tantek
that is - the *quote* being the focus, the primary content the author wishes to convey, and the URL just being a citation / info-about the quote.
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tantek
rather than the *bookmark* or URL being the focus, and a description / quote is meant purely as sort of an optional mini-preview / snippet for the reader's convenience.
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tantek
the intent behind those two are very different, and should at least *allow for* different presentation (whether or not and how they are presented differently is a different matter, so to speak)
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tantek
Tumblr's quotation post type is a good example of how the focus on the quote can be better conveyed in a design.
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tantek
!tell aaronpk re: quotation vs. bookmark http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-01-03#t1420277404307
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek
back to clustered like presentation iterations - specifically the thorn that's sticking is the way time is conveyed
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tantek
I realized that a parenthetical expression of time after a piece of media/link already has some shared meaning, that it's a duration indicator/hint about the media/link being shared (expectedly audio/video)
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tantek
which is obviously not what my usage is intending, thus I need to alter the presentation to not misconvey that somewhat established convention
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tantek
anyway that's going to take some rethinking
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neuro`
Good morning.
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tantek
good morning neuro`!
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tantek
the other clustered like case I'm looking into improving is when I like/favorite a lot of things from the same person / source
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tantek
part of my reading pattern is reading individual people's profiles / sites serially post by post, and often liking a bunch of them in a row
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tantek
(I find reading people like that much more satisfying / calm than any kind of random aggregate "news feed" of updates from all the random sources)
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neuro`
tantek: can you have some /people/someone pages gathering those individuals posts?
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neuro`
It would mean being able to extract the origin of the posts you liked, but this must be in the various APIs metadata
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tantek
neuro`: perhaps. For now I'm looking at the simpler question of can clusters of likes in a home page stream be even further tightened up
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tantek
no APIs nor metadata needed. origin of posts - what we call *author* of posts (h-entry) is right there in the visible markup
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neuro`
Oh, indeed, what was I thinking about?
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tantek
or even more minimally, leave out explicit authorship in such posts - just use a permalink/URL and presume that anyone wanting detailed info about a post you like, can simply retrieve that post and follow the /authorship algorithm on it
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@loicmathaud
@oncletom @davidbgk @DavidBruant ça reste encore assez confidentiel dans l'univers #indieweb mais ne demande qu'á être plus largement usité
(twtr.io/uhZR4jq1jY)
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voxpelli
!tell KevinMarks I pushed a quick fix now for the duplicated text in the mentions on your site – it displays a sensible default now rather than the imported like/repost text
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@hugoroyd
Hello to @taziden joining the #indieWeb @withKnown
(twtr.io/uhfWPwYmMt)
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@Wordius
@voxpelli Trouble getting Webmentions to work on http://t.co/kkNRtKY4dl. Link in head, script in post but no joy despite likes on Twitter
(twtr.io/uhsQYgiEcs)
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@Wordius
@voxpelli Ignore previous messages. Had URL issues; fixed and Webmentions are working! Thank you
(twtr.io/uhw1Akwis_)
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aaronpk
tantek: ah good point about the focus of the URL vs quote
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Loqi
aaronpk: tantek left you a message 7 hours, 53 minutes ago: re: quotation vs. bookmark http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-01-03#t1420277404307
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aaronpk
I wonder how many of my bookmarks I intended as quotations
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aaronpk
oh I just realized I've totally done quotation posts before, just as a regular note
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tantek
example URL?
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aaronpk
looking
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aaronpk
here is one without a URL because it was IRL http://aaron.pk/n4Y62
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aaronparecki.com
edited /quotation (+172) "add examples of quotation notes"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
here is a quotation with a photo! http://aaron.pk/n4W52
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tantek
funny about the one comment on http://aaron.pk/n4WN2 now 404ing
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tantek
that quotation with a photo to me seems more like the primary content / intent is to show the *photo* and then the quotation is intended secondarily as the caption of the photo.
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tantek
that is the quotation is about the photo, rather than the photo being about the quotation
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aaronpk
oh funny, I thought that was a tweet reply
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tantek
do you have the entire original? did you do the ellipsing or was it in the original?
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aaronpk
let me check
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tantek
realizes that's what … vs. […] is for
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tantek
… inside a quotation is supposed to indicate that the ellipsis was in the original quotation, whereas […], like any [words inserted] insidde a quotation implies insertion (deletion) by the quoter.
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aaronpk
dug up the html cached from that page
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tantek
waits for a "View Cache" button on comments on aaronpk's posts ;)
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aaronpk
looks like most of the page included the ellipsis
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aaronpk
oh that'd be neat. not sure how i'd handle CSS though
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aaronpk
the version in the fb og tag was "fwd @timberners_lee RT @aaronpk &quot;Because already got webmentions on my site, Brid.gy worked straight out the gate... j.mp/U5UH3O"
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aaronpk
and in the entry-content element there was "fwd <a href="http://twitter.com/timberners_lee">@timberners_lee</a> RT <a href="http://twitter.com/aaronpk">@aaronpk</a> &#8220;Because already got webmentions on my site, Brid.gy worked straight out the gate&#8230; <a href="http://j.mp/U5UH3O">j.mp/U5UH3O</a>"
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tantek
and the jmp just goes to your permalink
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aaronpk
oh I see what happened
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aaronpk
the microformats parser returned both a "name" and "content"
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aaronpk
so comments-presentation says to use the name
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tantek
I think summary before name but yeah
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aaronpk
it's just that in this case the name isn't really a name, it's just abbreviated content
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aaronpk
(there's no summary property)
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tantek
right, no summary means you have to pick between name to keep the comment short for presentation or content for more but which risks making the comment much bigger (off topic?) than your post.
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tantek
hence name before content without knowing anything more about either's specific value
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@Wordius
@xtof_fr Disturbing thing is, I had your Webmention long before your post was live!
(twtr.io/ui7qJ49Jw0)
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aaronpk
so I guess my code is fine?
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tantek
if you wanted to enhance it further, you could do the FB "More…" thing
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tantek
that is:
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tantek
when displaying a name or summary for a comment, and the comment has content, AND the name/summary being used is a strict whitespace normalized text abbreviation for the content, show a "More…" link which dynamically shows the entire content in place instead of the name/summary
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tantek
s/abbreviation/prefix abbreviation
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: when displaying a name or summary for a comment, and the comment has content, AND the name/summary being used is a strict whitespace normalized text prefix abbreviation for the content, show a "More…" link which dynamically shows the entire content in place instead of the name/summary
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tantek
I suppose I should write that up somewhere
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aaronpk
finding out if the name is an abbreviation of the content is hard, especially when the name might include an ellipsis
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tantek
no that's *how* you find out!
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tantek
the algorithm is, text only, collapse all sequences of any whitespace to single whitespace characters
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tantek
do that to both name/summary and content and then you can do a simple string prefix compare
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tantek
then if you're worried about ellipsis, think of it as a *choice* for you the publisher
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tantek
that is, you could implement a "More…" button *ONLY* when the name/summary ends with an ellipsis
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tantek
(in addition to the previous prefix requirement)
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tantek
since the comment author's use of ellipsis in the name/summary indicates that they are explicitly communicating in the name/summary that there IS more content
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tantek
thus you as the comment displayer could choose to listen to that explicit communication, and show a "more…" link accordingly.
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@xtof_fr
@Wordius Kudos for implementing #webmentions ! Cannot help Thinking about #ownmynotes' commitment : How to own replies w/ "in-reply-to"
(twtr.io/ui8XTCj1vC)
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tantek
it's like a subtle use of an ellipsis for a show "more…" link "API" as it were.
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aaronpk
I like it. I wonder if I can add that to my php-comments library somehow
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aaronpk
in other news, Google is shutting down Open ID 2.0 support
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aaronpk
April 20, 2015 will be completely shut down
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aaronpk
it's being replaced by Google+ which is OAuth 2.0 with OpenID Connect
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tantek
with special sauce
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aaronpk
any oauth 2.0 implementation requires special sauce ;)
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tantek
and that's the problem with OpenID Connect in one sentence
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tantek
all that should be added to /OpenID
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tantek
as cumbersome as it was, OpenID 1.0 didn't require special sauce to consume or produce.
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aaronpk
I've been working on a blog post about OAuth 2.0 implementations. It's a checklist that points out all the things where OAuth 2.0 implementations can differ
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tantek
*do* differ - presumably you have examples
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aaronpk
this is more pointing out all the holes in the spec
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aaronpk
also is kind of a guide for people building oauth servers
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tantek
that makes sense, even such a "all the holes" guide on its own is useful
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tantek
then you can separately post real world examples of the holes in practice
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aaronpk
yeah. I'm toying with the idea of making this a live form, so people can fill it out based on their server implementation. then I could collect results that way
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aaronpk
i'm not sure it would actually be super useful and is going to add a ton of work to the post, so haven't decided yet
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tantek
not sure people could be trusted to answer accurately (not just because of malintent)
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tantek
good reasons to cut it
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tantek
or do it as a follow-up
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tantek
is still editing /quotation with guidance
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tantek.com
edited /quotation (+2337) "why section, primary / portion / emphasis exception, and when to instead use a repost, bookmark, or photo"
(view diff)
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@hugoroyd
@taziden @benwerd to have interactions appear in Known, diaspora has to support webmentions…
(twtr.io/uiCUAC3xWf)
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tantek
aaronpk, for your review, thoughts on why to post a quotation post, and why post a different kind of post instead: https://indiewebcamp.com/quotation#Why
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aaronpk
this is good
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aaronpk
question: a quotation with commentary...
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aaronpk
is that still a quotation post?
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tantek
I was looking at your example of http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/06/01/2/indieweb to try to figure that out
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tantek
and I think the primary/secondary reasoning still applies
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aaronpk
that example seems more like clarifying the context rather than adding commentary
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aaronpk
so I agree that the reasoning for using a quotation post applies
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tantek
if your post is primarily about the quotation, and only secondarily about any summary / comment / description, then it should still be a quotation
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tantek
if however, your comment *is* your primary contribution, then are you are writing a reply, and the quotation is actually acting as just a reply-context. Post a reply instead, in-reply-to a fragmention link to the start of the quoted content.
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tantek
aaronpk - hah - that's a hashtag - as commentary
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aaronpk
yeah lol
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tantek
more often seen as "#FAIL"
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aaronpk
i'm looking for the actual example i was thinking of
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tantek
that seems more like a reply
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tantek
it's kind of alike a /this
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tantek
s/alike/like
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aaronpk
not really, I wouldn't just post #facepalm
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: it's kind of like a /this
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aaronpk
I had the explicit intent of sharing the text of the thing i'm replying to
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tantek
yes you would, it's a tag reply to a fragmention ;)
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aaronpk
i've seen this behavior a lot on twitter too. i think it's different than just a reply
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aaronpk
because my intent is not actually to reply to the original post
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tantek
right
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tantek
here's how you can tell. if you dropped the "#facepalm", your post would still make sense!
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tantek
but not vice versa
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tantek
thus the quotation is primary, and the "commentary" is secondary
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tantek
this is a good minimal example
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tantek
yeah that's definitely a comment on a fragmention
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tantek
the quote without the comment would not convey your intent
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tantek
and the quote is primarily acting as a reply-context
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tantek
rather, that's a marginalia post, pure and simple
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Loqi
[mention] Christophe Ducamp commented '@Wordius : still not tested @withknown on my own instance and I'd be happy to make an opinion. Next month, I'll try to get in touch in fre...' on a post http://indiewebcamp.com/withknown#How_to (http://xtof.withknown.com/2015/wordius-still-not-tested-withknown-on-my-own-instance-and)
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Loqi
[mention] Christophe Ducamp commented '@Wordius : still not tested @withknown on my own instance and I'd be happy to make an opinion. Next month, I'll try to get in touch in fre...' on a post that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com (http://xtof.withknown.com/2015/wordius-still-not-tested-withknown-on-my-own-instance-and)
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aaronpk
oh man I just realized I have a relatively short path to making an indieweb reader inside p3k
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aaronpk
i've been doing all this work on rendering other peoples' posts within p3k for my reposts and favorites
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aaronpk
and it's all based on rendering the post given an h-entry
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aaronpk
all that code is in p3k-core, and could be easily reused for a reader app
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aaronpk
...just thinking out loud...
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tantek
reply-contexts and reposts as the path to creating the building blocks for your own indie reader!
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tantek
and likes as a motivator too - since favoriting/liking is more and more the most frequent interaction people do when "reading"
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aaronpk
definitely. it is definitely favoriting/liking that is pushing me to have my own reader now
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tantek
I've felt the same itch
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aaronpk
because I want a reader with micropub support so that the likes can be published seamlessly
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Loqi
gives aaronpk a reader with micropub support so that the likes can be published seamlessly
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tantek
because I go to read, and then I'm like, oops I don't want to like/fave here, I need to go to my site to do that
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aaronpk
my browser button for liking is good, but still requires the extra effort of visiting the post's permalink first
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tantek
which means I need to / should read from my site
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tantek
aaronpk - yeah - greasemonkey override of the in-content UI would be better
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tantek
like what barnaby had built for replies
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aaronpk
yeah, I think I'm going to skip that and jump to the reader instead though
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aaronpk
I had it working for twitter a while back too
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tantek
aaronpk - then the race is on for fully integrated indieweb reader funcationality, between you and Known.
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aaronpk
i'm going to build it as a p3k "app" like Quill and Teacup
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tantek
that anyone can use to read?
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tantek
like Shrewdness you mean?
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tantek.com
edited /quotation (+2569) "subheads for why, secondary brief commentary, when to use a reply instead, with examples, note connection to marginalia"
(view diff)
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tantek
aaronpk - updated with answers from your above questions about commentary with quotes etc. see in particular: https://indiewebcamp.com/quotation#Secondary_brief_commentary and https://indiewebcamp.com/quotation#reply
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aaronpk
interesting
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tantek
What I find particularly interesting is that I needed the conceptual building blocks of "reply-context" "fragment" and "marginalia" to actually answer the seemingly "simpler" question about quotation vs. reply.
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tantek
s/fragment/fragmention
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: What I find particularly interesting is that I needed the conceptual building blocks of "reply-context" "fragmention" and "marginalia" to actually answer the seemingly "simpler" question about quotation vs. reply.
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aaronpk
that makes sense
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tantek
answering that question was MUCH harder a year ago
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tantek
because we didn't even know what we didn't know (that "fragmention" and "marginalia" would be essential illuminating building blocks)
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tantek
aaronpk - plus it helps that you've posted so many examples anyway that inspired the analysis!
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aaronpk
glad I could help :)
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aaronpk
also it was the act of scanning through past notes on my site looking for these examples that made me realize I already have a lot of the reader work done
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tantek
I wasn't sure from this post whether the quotation or bookmark was more primary: http://aaronparecki.com/bookmarks/2012/04/04/1/
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aaronpk
in that case the quotation is there so that I remember why I bookmarked it
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tantek
however, upon reading the the linked article, I *think* the bookmark is more primary, and the quotation is just a secondary "reminder" or "summary" of what kind of thing is in the bookmark, or *why* you bookmarked it.
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aaronpk
ha jinx
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tantek
hah - in my IRC client I sent my message before receiving yours
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tantek
249 microseconds between our statements - if that's the resolution of the permalinks in the log. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-01-03#t1420315819917
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aaronpk
haha! milliseconds I think
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tantek
and only 162ms between the next two!
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tantek
that's the kind of interaction that's unlikely to ever happen on Twitter because of so much more lag in all their infrastructure / UI
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tantek
and frankly, also an interesting performance challenge should we ever (when we) get to indieweb irc posting.
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aaronpk
heh that'll be fun
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tantek
aaronpk - if you marked up the reference to to Amber's name in the quotation as a person-tag, THEN this would be a quotation rather than a bookmark: http://aaronparecki.com/bookmarks/2012/04/04/1/
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aaronpk
how so?
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tantek
since even adding a person-tag to a quotation is a form of emphasis per: https://indiewebcamp.com/quotation#Emphasis_exception
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tantek
because the person-tag would indicate an explicit intent above and beyond bookmarking
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tantek
that you wanted to communicate *explicitly* hey - Amber is in this quote
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aaronpk
right, and possibly also with the intent of drawing it to her attention
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tantek
precisely
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aaronpk
since it would send a webmention to her home page
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tantek
and all that difference in intent would make it a quotation more than a bookmark
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kylewm
is anybody posseing instagram likes yet? trying to figure out what to put for the u-syndication url
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aaronpk
I am, but I'm not setting syndication URLs of my likes
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kylewm
I guess I could see what Bridgy does when backfeeding likes
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tantek
kylewm: Instagram does not have permalinks for likes does their is nothing to put for a u-syndication URL
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tantek
s/does their/therefore there/
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: kylewm: Instagram does not have permalinks for likes therefore there is nothing to put for a u-syndication URL
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tantek
not sure how I mistyped that
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tantek
aaronpk, why not CC0 instead of Apache?
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aaronpk
I use apache for most of my source code
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kylewm
interesting, Bridgy just makes something up. instagram.com/p/shortcode/#liked-by-userid
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tantek
so for your own consistency then
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aaronpk
yeah. i haven't considered CC0 for code before.
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tantek
aaronpk - every since I started working interchangeably on documentation, specification, software, CC0 made a lot more sense for all 3
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aaronpk
I would consider CC0 for functions or small libraries, but I don't think it really makes sense for projects.
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tantek
for ease of sharing / moving snippets backforth
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kylewm
didn't willnorris have a google-legal-department issue trying to use some bit of CASSIS because of CC0?
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aaronpk
that sounds familiar
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tantek
no - he was *asking* for CC0
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aaronpk
i suppose accepting contributions is easier for CC0 source code since you're asking very clearly for the contributor to give up their copyrights rather than assigning them or licensing them
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tantek
because I started CASSIS as CC-BY-SA deliberately to slow down / constrain some of its propagation until I felt like there (enough) test cases, review of the code etc.
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tantek
aaronpk, and yes, for contributions, CC0 is a no brainer
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tantek
because it doesn't make them *give* anything to *you* in particular
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tantek
that's the problem with all the copyright assignment/license crap
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aaronpk
interesting, hadn't really considered it before
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tantek
it limits your opportunity to contribute to multiple places that each ask for that
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tantek
yeah I think it's kind of an obvious flaw
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tantek
so at a minimum, ask for all contributions to be done CC0
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tantek
which then gives you the maximum option of CC0 in the future
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tantek
if not immediately if you prefer
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kylewm
tantek, you're right; it NewBase60 stuff, it was CC-BY-SA and you changed it to CC0
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tantek
yeah - again, for such fundamental code I wanted to make sure there were no weird buggy edge cases and such
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tantek
heck I just fixed a newcal CASSIS bug last week while building like posts!
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tantek
(I should say, while drastically simplifying my storage format and code)
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tantek
but the NewBase60 stuff is pretty solid
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tantek
what CC-BY-SA gives you above CC0 for such "uncertain" code is that you're communicating an expectation that derivative works MUST also be openly published, which means if you find a bug in your original, you have *a chance* of finding (or other finding) downstream copies and fixing
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tantek
whereas with CC0, you basically absolve yourself of any such responsibilities
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tantek
another reason is if you're doing a project essentially by yourself and you have some fear someone may try to hijack it e.g. incorporate it in its entirety into some larger project and then claim its theirs, take it over, etc.
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tantek
using CC-BY-SA minimizes that to only other larger projects that use CC-BY-SA - which are not typically not the type of people/communities that hijack things
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tantek
btw by take it over - I also mean put a more restrictive license on it that causes you trouble with working on your own code - since fixes may become "obvious" and they may make fixes before you do.
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tantek
anyway that's borderline off topic - or perhaps it's an FAQ for indieweb publishing of code
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tantek
kylewm - re: u-syndication links for POSSEs of likes - I will point out that FB *does* have permalinks for likes
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tantek
thus it *does* make sense to link from an indie like post of a FB object, to the FB permalink of the POSSE like of that object.
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tantek
hmm I think I just made myself more work - since I don't think Bridgy Publish returns the FB permalink of the POSSE like of a FB object, does it?
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kylewm
it should if it doesn't
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kylewm
i mean, the code is written such that it tries to return the permalink of your syndicated post
KartikPrabhu and eschnou joined the channel
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tantek
kylewm: well it didn't for likes
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tantek
it returns the URL of the thing you liked
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kylewm
tantek, that is what i'm seeing too
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tantek
reviews his u-syndication parsing/generation code flow
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GWG
Afternoon, indiewebcamp
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GWG
kylewm: what happened to your site?
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kylewm
aaronpk++
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Loqi
aaronpk has 644 karma
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aaronpk
that's hilarious
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snarfed
kylewm: re instagram likes, i've defaulted to just the silo post url before
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snarfed
if i'm feeling ambitious, i make up a fragment with the liker's username or id
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kylewm
snarfed: cool. also is there an API limitation that prevents you from getting the permalink for a FB like post?
xtof joined the channel
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tantek
kylewm - really appreciating the minimal kylewm.com
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tantek
so calm
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snarfed
kylewm: sorry, i don't follow. context?
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GWG
kylewm: I don't like it. But mostly because it doesn't fill my screen
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kylewm
snarfed, so I am looking at https://www.brid.gy/facebook/tantek.celik .. the Published likes at the bottom
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kylewm
snarfed, like you said, it just defaults to the URL of the thing being liked
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xtof
bonsoir et belle année á tous les indiewebcampeurs
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kylewm
snarfed, and I'm wondering if it's possible to get the permalink for the actual like ... a la https://www.facebook.com/kyle.mahan/posts/10101133361177039:4
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tantek
starts manually adding u-syndication links for his FB likes, sigh.
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kylewm
is there any way to find them in the UI other than going to /allactivity, tantek?
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snarfed
kylewm: hmm, i can't see that url
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kylewm
ohhh interesting
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aaronpk
"This content is currently unavailable"
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snarfed
also those permalinks redirect to the post url
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tantek
kylewm: not for me. however I assume that Bridgy sees the URL permalink of a like as some sort of return value to its FB API call to like something
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snarfed
actually, nm, they don't redirect but they do just show it
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kylewm
tantek: can you share one of the like permalinks you are looking at?
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snarfed
kylewm: ok, i understand now. i'd love to use those urls! i'm not actually sure we get them, but i'd happily use them if possible
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tantek
pretty sure I even documented it on /like
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tantek
a while ago
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kylewm
snarfed: cool, mostly I wondered if you were already tracking it as an issue; so many bridgy things are already
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snarfed
kylewm: no issue for it yet afaik. here's a loosely related one though: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/265
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KartikPrabhu
Loqi playback?
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Loqi
who, me?
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KartikPrabhu
was going to point out connection between quotation, bookmark, fragmention and marginalia but tantek already did that
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GWG
Anyone have any advice on presentation of category/tags?
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GWG
I'm working on that again
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GWG
The issue being that Indieweb conventions see no difference between the two and WordPress does. Trying to decide how to address in a presentation manner
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aaronpk
kylewm: what happened to your mf2? your body tag has a class of bh-entry
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aaronpk
oh you just fixed it
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kylewm
aaronpk, ah I don't have an h-card
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kylewm
will need to fix that
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aaronpk
heh I totally forgot to handle the case where there's no image for the like
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aaronpk
so it's just not showing up
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snarfed.org
edited /like (+187) "/* FB like permalink */ screenshot"
(view diff)
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KartikPrabhu
GWG: do you use category and tags differently?
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KartikPrabhu
why not just use one.
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tantek
GWG, simple answer, WP categories are an old obsolete methodology and architecture. ignore them completely. pretend they don't exist. Use only tags.
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tantek
what is that?
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Loqi
That! (or "that ^^^") is a rarely seen reply emphasizing agreement with a This post https://indiewebcamp.com/that
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KartikPrabhu
weird that mf2 still calls them categories though
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aaronpk
i have always been irritated at that
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tantek.com
edited /that (+143) "expand definition per kartikprabhu illustrative usage and real world example"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
hahaha
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tantek.com
edited /that (+0) "margin"
(view diff)
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KartikPrabhu
IRC chat as post-type definition source!
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GWG
I just set it to mix the two together
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tantek
All I know is that we're documenting more real world post types with actual citations of examples in the wild than the ActivityStreams crowd ever did :P
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tantek
I think proposing "This" and "That" posts as additions to W3C Activity Streams would be good April 1 submission.
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tantek.com
edited /this (+0) "margin"
(view diff)
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KartikPrabhu
checks to see if the the newyear has broken his site
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KartikPrabhu
hmmm nope looks good :P
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GWG
How does this look for a site that has pretty much no styling?
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aaronpk
not really sure why my site is sending two WMs in a row...
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aaronpk
I do enjoy that I can "like" lines from the IRC log
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tantek
does the IRC log have <indie-action> tags for that?
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aaronpk
no I just used my browser button
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voxpelli
I was just thinking about the same
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tantek
what if each line had an empty heart icon
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tantek
and clicking it just did an <indie-action> like
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tantek
of course showing it filled in would be more work ;)
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aaronpk
does anyone have working <indie-action> support right now?
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tantek
especially when loading older logs
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snarfed
tantek: such a simple description, such a big implementation :P
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tantek
voxpelli does both sides right?
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tantek
snarfed: simple designs are often big implementations ;)
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voxpelli
tantek: since I have a Jekyll blog I unfortunately only have the buttons right now, not the publishing
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voxpelli
and I don't have a like button active yet, but would love to try it out with some one
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tantek
you mean the web+action: URL handling? registerprotocolhandler and all that?
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aaronpk
I can't remember where I left off with that on my site
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aaronpk
I got something working during indiewebcamp boston, enough to make a little video
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voxpelli
turns out kylewm actually have support for accepting likes through that
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tantek
accepting or posting?
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tantek
posting then
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aaronpk
kylewm: what is "publish quietly"?
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kylewm
aaronpk: doesn't send webmentions
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kylewm
I think I added that when I wrote a post with lots of links to indiewebcamp.com and didn't want to blow up the channel :P
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kylewm
thanks :)
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aaronpk
yea this post i'm working on is definitely gonna blow up the channel
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voxpelli
there's now WebAction / IndieConfig links for Likes and Tips on my blog in addition to the reply http://voxpelli.com/2014/10/indie-config-overview/
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voxpelli
works well with kylewm's "like" endpoint, although perhaps one would like a bit quicker publish flow there – like a 1-click confirm rather than a form?
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tantek
yes that makes sense
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kylewm
yeah 1-click without sending me to another page would be the ideal, imho
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kylewm
with a confirmation like how instagram turns the empty heart to a filled heart
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tantek
that confirmation should come via your post sending the like webmention to the post you're looking at right?
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tantek
and then that post updating its comments/interactions in real time?
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tantek
what is real time comments?
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Loqi
real-time comments are the display of comments on a view of a post (typically on its permalink) as they are received by the post (presumably via webmention), without needing any explicit user reloading, refreshing, or any other tapping/clicking etc https://indiewebcamp.com/real-time_comments
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kylewm
that would be awesome
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tantek
that's the latency to reduce to <200ms
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tantek
that entire flow
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kylewm
indie-actions doesn't give the site a way to check "are you one of the people who liked this post?"
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kylewm
but would that be possible?
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tantek
click empty heart, send web+action URL handler, your server posts like to your own site, sends webmention to the post you're looking it, post you're looking at updates its appearance to show the heart is now full
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tantek
ah, in that case you should at least show up in the likes facepile
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kylewm
i'm with you until the last step -- how could it figure out to fill in your heart in addition to add you to the facepile
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kylewm
that would be really killer
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www.marcus-povey.co.uk
edited /Known (+134) "/* No HTTPS support */"
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voxpelli
I guess there needs to be a total of 2 clicks – one for starting the like on the 3:rd party site, one for confirming it on your own site
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voxpelli
there's realtime comments on my blog as well so feel free to try ;)
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tantek
you shouldn't need
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tantek
to click the second time
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Loqi
I agree
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voxpelli
tantek: what stops my blog from otherwise just making you like my page whenever I visit?
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tantek
voxpelli++ for being the second indieweb example of realtime comments!
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Loqi
voxpelli has 15 karma
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voxpelli
s/whenever I/whenever you/
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Loqi
voxpelli meant to say: tantek: what stops my blog from otherwise just making you like my page whenever you visit?
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kylewm
voxpelli++ I didn't now you had gone realtime, just tried it, worked great!
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Loqi
voxpelli has 16 karma
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tantek
voxpelli: because the indie-action endpoint should use POST
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voxpelli
tantek: oh, right – you mean the true browser supported indie-action? if so: I agree!
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tantek
voxpelli: but yes, getting those details right so you can do it with one click will take some work!
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voxpelli
I so need to put together a flow for updating my site from the web, so that I can start playing around with those parts as well
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KartikPrabhu
is watching this nice talk: by Bret Victor: https://adactio.com/links/8075/ warning: might be too much theorising for some
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tantek.com
edited /baby-dont-hurt-me (+183) "see also ... via tommoris"
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@kartik_prabhu
likes http://vimeo.com/115154289 @worrydream on The Humane Representation of Thought with lessons for #indieweb #science Found via @adactio
(twtr.io/uiY5SCkNR4)
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tommorris.org
edited /POSSE (+274) "adding trans-silo POSSE example"
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tantek
that's not POSSE, that's a form of PESETAS or just syndication
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tantek
there's no such thing as Trans-silo POSSE
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tantek
because no part of that is "posting on your own site" thus not POSSE
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tommorris
tantek: feel free to revert, I'll add a section to [[Tumblr][
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tantek
probably need to add something to "Other Approaches"
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tommorris.org
edited /Tumblr (+427) "adding mention of Tumblr syndication to Twitter"
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tommorris
tantek: there, added it to the Tumblr page.
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tommorris.org
edited /POSSE (-274) "Undo revision 16365 by [[Special:Contributions/Tommorris.org|Tommorris.org]] ([[User talk:Tommorris.org|talk]]) - "trans-silo POSSE" squicks Tantek out, reverting until we can find a better way to document. in the meantime, documented on [[Tumblr]]"
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tommorris
and self-reverted.
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tantek
hmm - just as I was trying to incorporate
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tantek
let's see if this merges
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tommorris
at some point, we should probably get the VisualEditor onto IWC (and maybe microformats) wiki. VisualEditor promises less painful diffs and happier non-technical users. :)
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tommorris
less painful merges, rather
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tantek.com
edited /POSSE (+739) "add subheads to other approaches, add pesetas, incorporate notes about Tumblr to Twitter in pesetas section"
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tantek
that page needed to have an explicit reference to PESETAS anyway under Other Approaches
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tommorris
also, Tumblr does allow you to map your own domain to it. as does Squarespace.
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tommorris
I should braindump some notes about Squarespace. I used it for a family website recently.
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tantek.com
edited /POSSE (+37) "/* PESETAS */ Tumblr better than Twitter for pesetas"
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tantek
squarespace is more of a host than social network
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tantek
like you don't follow other squarespaces on squarespace - but you do with tumblr
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tantek
what is squarespace?
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Loqi
Squarespace is a content hosting service (paid) that provides services such as blogging and domain hosting https://indiewebcamp.com/Squarespace
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tantek
tommorris: definitely share your experiences with it
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