#indiewebcamp 2015-02-17

2015-02-17 UTC
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GWG KartikPrabhu: That is how I'm doing it now.
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tantek KartikPrabhu: that's exactly the name of the microformats property - u-syndication
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yup! that was the intent
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pwcc GWG, anyway - that's why I was asking :). Off to a meeting.
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GWG I'm using syndication_urls.
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gRegor` kylewm: Have you thought about showing reply-contexts in Woodwind?
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kylewm gRegor`: yep right up at the top of my todo list for it
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gRegor` cool cool
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tantek kylewm immediate reply context or the entire chain to the first non-reply post?
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kylewm immediate only
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@Shoq @andrea_r Are you seeing much interest in the #WP community for #IndieWeb support? (twitter.com/_/status/567476931730632704)
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kylewm more like IndieWordpressCamp around here lately, am I right
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tantek kylewm: it's all good, feels like a transitional bump
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GWG kylewm: It's an exciting time. WordPress was dead for a bit there.
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kylewm tantek: reply chain is a much more difficult styling/display problem
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tantek agreed hence why I asked :)
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kylewm (I'm happy for the bump in wordpress interest too)
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tantek it's an important learning experience for us as a community with learning how to peer-to-peer on a human level with another community
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tantek sadness, just ran into " Facebook comments and likes are no longer supported. :(" on Bridgy Publish.
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tantek pours out a like
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tantek is that the first regression of Bridgy Publish functionality?
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snarfed tantek: regression, yes
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tantek.com edited /Bridgy (+541) "/* History */ Previous Features / Publish Facebook Like" (view diff)
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Blackwool hey all, just letting you know I've submitted my proposal for the Indie Web film to the funding opp.
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Blackwool Keep your fingers crossed for it!
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kylewm Blackwool++ good luck!
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Loqi Blackwool has 1 karma
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Blackwool :D
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Blackwool ok, work time for me, ciao!
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tantek woot!
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Loqi woot
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tantek since a "like" doesn't really have any information that the silo can "own" from you (it's just one bit), that may diminish the disadvantages of PESOS over POSSE in that case to being fairly trivial / minimal.
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tantek especially since silos (e.g. FB, Twitter, IT) rarely if ever provide permalinks for "likes" inside (that you could link to from your indie "like" posts with rel=syndication)
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tantek thus in practice it will be hard to tell the difference between POSSE and PESOS likes
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tantek what is ownyourlikes?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "ownyourlikes" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=ownyourlikes&summary=%28prompted+by+tantek+https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-16/line/1424133138475%29
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snarfed tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 147 karma
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snarfed i gave different arguments in https://snarfed.org/2015-01-22_pesos-for-bridgy-publish but same conclusion
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tantek snarfed - how can they claim to own one bit of information?
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tantek and I suppose we already have this problem with G+
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snarfed eh same way as multiple bits
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snarfed it's just smaller quantitatively
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tantek snarfed - not true, there's a murky threshold for such things
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tantek copyright etc.
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@Shoq .@andrea_r Right, but owning it, and sharing it wildly are different things. That's where indieweb is so interesting. It provides the tools (twitter.com/_/status/567483216953872384)
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tantek this is good ^^^ WP people explaining to other WP people why/how IndieWeb is beyond blogging
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snarfed tantek: ah you were speaking legally. for that, sure. i was thinking product/eng
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tantek snarfed, legally, morally, risk thereof, etc.
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tantek the silos are particularly bereft in this way because they don't have permalinks for likes, and rarely do they have or show datestamps either
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KevinMarks it's a bit more than 1 bit, it's a (user,url) pair
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snarfed tantek: you found the fb like permalinks!
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snarfed but they are the exception
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tantek snarfed - but they were super hidden!
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snarfed sure. regardless.
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tantek e.g. Twitter has no permalinks
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tantek for likes. neither does IG.
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snarfed actually g+ has them for +1s too, just similarly hidden
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snarfed forget permalink, twitter doesn't even expose favorites in the api
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snarfed i still hold a grudge for that
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snarfed :P
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tantek right! that too
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tantek snarfed, just noticed that your reply came through as 3 comments here: https://kylewm.com/2015/01/the-facebook-api-v2-0-is-hobbled-to-prevent-spammy
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tantek that's a good de-dupe test case :)
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snarfed yup
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tantek.com edited /Bridgy (+79) "/* Publish Facebook Like */ cite post" (view diff)
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tantek snarfed - is it possible to query if you've liked a FB post?
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snarfed with 2.x api? in general, i think only your own posts
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tantek do you mean Bridgy couldn't check on my behalf?
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kylewm it's not even possible to query a post at all
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kylewm unless that person has also given an impossible to get permission to bridgy
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snarfed bridgy uses the 2.x api so yeah, equivalent
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snarfed gory details in https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/350 and http://stackoverflow.com/questions/28337331
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tantek so I couldn't ask Bridgy - have I liked this FB post? (URL) and have it return yes/no?
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KevinMarks wish I knew why my phone keeps flapping on and off
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snarfed tantek: confused, sounds like the same question; i must be missing something
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tantek read-only vs. read-write
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tantek I'm asking if I can *read* the "like"-state of a post
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tantek instead of try to set it
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KevinMarks snarfed - you know you can pass a URL to FB and it gives you a graph id - what happens if you pass it a fb post url?
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snarfed right. same answer. for other people's posts, in 2.x, both read only and read write need `read_stream` scope, which is impossible to get
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snarfed KevinMarks: good idea, tried, doesn't work :/
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snarfed good try though
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KevinMarks suggest it as a bug fix to that API?
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snarfed lol i wish they were that dumb
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snarfed our conclusion is this is an intentional product decision on their part
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tantek snarfed - there is no API equivalent of accessing /me/allactivity ?
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snarfed (many other people's conclusion too)
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snarfed tantek: there is, it just doesn't tell you anything about *which* post you liked'
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snarfed https://github.com/snarfed/ownyourresponses#facebook
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snarfed baby, bbi20
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tantek it does in the HTML view
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snarfed scraping. :( that way lie dragons
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aaronpk facebook doesn't even have a real HTML view of user profiles
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KevinMarks browser extension is the new API
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tantek snarfed - worse - you'd need someone's FB pw to do that
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tantek which is not worth managing
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kylewm you would have also have to render in javascript before scraping right?
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aaronpk yeah there isn't any html in /me/allactivity
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tantek dang and that too
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kylewm actuallly m.facebook.com is still html
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KevinMarks well, going back to "give me your password" auth because OAuth permissions dies would be ironic
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KevinMarks Octagen 2.0
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aaronpk you'd need a facebook.com cookie
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tantek interesting - https://m.facebook.com/username/allactivity
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KevinMarks yes, cookie needed
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KevinMarks also very ellipsed
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aaronpk why does wordpress insist on having fully-qualified URLs in img tags in post content instead of relative URLs?
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gRegor` because reasons
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gRegor` (I hate it too)
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gRegor` I think it's an easier way to make sure they work no matter where you show the posts; different permalink structures
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aaronpk but...
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aaronpk it makes it almost impossible to change domains, or do something on a staging domain
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snarfed aaronpk: huh that's not true, at least not entirely
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snarfed i put relative urls in img tags for both media library images and ones served directly through apache
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snarfed both work for me
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aaronpk but the image upload function returns a full URL
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aaronpk and every time i've used the media library to insert an image it writes a full URL
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pwcc Means they don't need to regex the URLs fro rss.
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snarfed ah sure, yes
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aaronpk like, ideally, I could set up caseorganic's new site on a subdomain and switch it over at the last second
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snarfed ok, so rephrased as, why does it always *give* you fully qualified urls
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aaronpk but I can't, because wordpress will break all the URLs
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aaronpk snarfed: kind of...? I shouldn't have to think about it
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gRegor` SQL REPLACE() is what most WordPress people would say
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aaronpk uugggghhhhh
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gRegor` Yep
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pwcc Mostly it's http://wp-cli.org/ to cover serialized data. And tears, plenty of tears.
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aaronpk i don't understand why my use case is not recognized
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aaronpk i'm tryign to move *to* wordpress even... why would they want to make that hard
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snarfed i won't disagree
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aaronpk i'm going to have to do hosts file tricks or deal with the fact that the site will be empty/broken for a while
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gRegor` I think you can modify the TinyMCE (or whatever editor WP uses) to exclude the domain name when inserting images.
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aaronpk i'm not using the editor
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gRegor` I'm missing something then
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aaronpk i'm using internal wordpress functions to add an image, and the html it's returning has absolute URLs
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gRegor` Oh. Which function(s)?
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aaronpk media_sideload_image()
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pwcc On the save_post action you could filter the content to remove the domain from img tags
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aaronpk it returns html of an img tag
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aaronpk which I then have to parse to get the image URL to replace in the post content
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gRegor` Let me refresh myself. You should be able to call an upload function that will put the image in wp-content/uploads/ using whatever filename you want, so they could keep the same name and then you don't need to update any HTML, just a rewrite rule or two
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aaronpk no i have to use the wordpress functions to get them into the media library
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gRegor` Oof
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gRegor` Because it's creating db entries for each image?
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aaronpk yeah
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gRegor` How about wp get attachment url filter? http://codex.wordpress.org/Function_Reference/wp_get_attachment_url#Notes
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aaronpk i mean i can make this import with relative paths, which i'm going to do, but the point is I think it's not a good idea to store the full URL in the first place
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aaronpk the funny thing is the function i'm using doesn't even return an object ID, it returns html to me!
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gRegor` Found wp_get_attachment_url via this post http://theme.fm/2011/10/how-to-upload-media-via-url-programmatically-in-wordpress-2657/, the download_url section at the bottom
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aaronpk ah looks like http://codex.wordpress.org/Function_Reference/media_handle_sideload returns the object ID
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gRegor` Yep
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aaronpk i dunno this is working now
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gRegor` And then adding a filter to wp_get_attachment_url would let you return a relative path, if you'd like.
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gRegor` That's usually my response to WordPress. "This works. I'm done."
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aaronpk the less time I spend in the wordpress mines the better
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gRegor` Hopefully caseorganic really appreciates all the work :)
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aaronpk hopefully someone else does too eventually
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aaronpk since it is a generic h-entry importer after all
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aaronpk i don't like making things for just one person. kind of like how I don't like cooking food if I'm the only one who's going to eat it.
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gRegor` I'm currently having really weird issues with PHP object inheritance.
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gRegor` A extends B and only adds one new method... From this new method I can successfully call $this->foo() and it works, except within foo a reference to $this->var does not seem to work. I've confirmed $this->var is set correctly in my method, both before and after the call to $this->foo()
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@kevinmarks “tricking the algorithm is never going to be a viable long-term tactic.” http://marketingland.com/want-maximum-reach-facebook-dont-post-photos-118536 #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/567499292324012032)
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gRegor` To get more specific, http://api.cakephp.org/1.3/source-class-EmailComponent.html#615 $this->sendAs definitely has the value 'both'
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gRegor` But $this->_createBoundary() is not being called.
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gRegor` All the other $this->var references before it work, so I'm baffled. The rest of the email headers are set correctly by that method
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@kragen RT @kevinmarks: “tricking the algorithm is never going to be a viable long-term tactic.” http://marketingland.com/want-maximum-reach-facebook-dont-post-photos-118536 #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/567499772773535744)
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aaronpk it just occurred to me, the bridgy publish webmention overload trick is almost identical to the problem indienews has with getting people to post things there
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aaronpk indienews is a POSSE destination just like bridgy publish
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aaronpk both have solved it a slightly different way, and I'm not super sold on either approach
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snarfed aaronpk: ack
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aaronpk hehe
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aaronpk this is not a pressing matter
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snarfed yup
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aaronpk i just mean that both have the same problem, you want an easy way for people to tell the destination about their content, and the response needs to include a URL generated by their site
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aaronpk er, generated by the tool
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snarfed well kind of
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snarfed for indienews, the url is generated programmatically, not returned
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snarfed s/programmatically/algorithmically/
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Loqi snarfed meant to say: for indienews, the url is generated algorithmically, not returned
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aaronpk it doesn't have to be though
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snarfed by rules
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snarfed oh?
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aaronpk that's just the way I implemented it
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aaronpk I could have implemented it the way bridgy publish does
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snarfed oh sure
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aaronpk where indienews retursn the URL for the posse copy
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aaronpk (posse destination being indienews in this case)
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snarfed sure
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aaronpk anyway, not important, just thinking out loud
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aaronpk good news! so far I can import notes, photos and replies, and everything works quite well!
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aaronpk turns out HTML is a pretty good interchange format :)
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snarfed nice work!
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acegiak.net edited /scrobble (+264) "adding self to examples" (view diff)
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acegiak.net edited /scrobble (-6) "forgot to change title of section" (view diff)
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aaronpk next up is importing comments/likes/retweets
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aaronpk what knows about those? is it the theme?
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aaronpk oh they're just comments right?
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aaronpk biab, changing venues
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snarfed yup all comment
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snarfed s
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gRegor` Oh geez. Well I feel silly. The object inheritance issue above... apparently that file in production doesn't match the page I linked to. I think the documentation has a newer version of the file and they forgot to change the version number.
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gRegor` Both report same version, but ours is definitely different.
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tantek what is ownyourresponses?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "ownyourresponses" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=ownyourresponses&summary=%28prompted+by+tantek+https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-16/line/1424140432125%29
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tantek.com created /ownyourresponses (+238) "stub with project link, brief description" (view diff)
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aaronpk gRegor`: lol that's usually the problem I have when things just don't make sense
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aaronpk "i swear there are gremlins in this thing! oh wait i'm editing a file on my computer and expecting the remote server to have the changes"
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gRegor` hehe
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aaronpk or two different folders on my computer
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tantek aaronpk that's usually when I start changing the CSS in harsh ways like background:red
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aaronpk yeah totally
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aaronpk at some point I resort to doing "die('wtf');" in my php code
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gRegor` Debug statements start using more swear words...
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gRegor` Hah. ^ Yeah
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tantek aaronpk: I'm usually good with echo "should at least get here."
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aaronpk tantek: yeah that usually works except when you're in crazy framework land where things are doing output buffering
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tantek is perhaps mellowing with age.
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aaronpk which is why the die() is so effective
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tantek lol crazy framework land
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aaronpk i don't always trust that echo is going to make it to the browser
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tantek I think this may be one of the reasons I don't use anyone's frameworks. In CSS, JS, or PHP.
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tantek Typically they write too much bloated code.
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tantek With too much function/stack depth.
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aaronpk related, using a framework makes you dependent on that framework
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tantek You call the thing the creates a thing to post an event to do make a call back to do a thing.
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aaronpk for bugfixes, and future browser support
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tantek lots of layers of abstraction = clearly bad engineers
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tantek I have no time for lots of layers of abstraction - which is what most frameworks are
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aaronpk node.js is so new that code I wrote only a year and a half ago no longer runs because the language has changed so much
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tantek aaronpk - cassis.js is also still new - yet I bet the code you wrote that uses cassis still runs. :P
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tantek ergo, no excuses.
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tantek.com edited /ownyourresponses (+184) "background, see also" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /ownyourresponses (+131) "Bridgy Issue 350" (view diff)
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gRegor` I'm still cautiously optimistic about ProcessWire framework. I've really liked it's flexibility setting up sites in it, vs. trying to jam non-blog functionality into WordPress sites.
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gRegor` "it's flexibility setting up sites in it"? I am tired.
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aaronpk 90% of frameworks I've used try to do too much or make assumptions I don't agree with
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aaronpk both user-visible assumptions like URL structure, or code-level assumptions about how to organize files internally
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tantek I like libraries instead of frameworks
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aaronpk totally
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tantek.com edited /2014/reposts (+201) "subheads for repost presentation sketches, expand text description of Reposting a post that lacks a POSSE tweet" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+142) "/* POSSE Reposts to Twitter */ consider How to POSSE a repost of a post that lacks a POSSE tweet itself" (view diff)
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tantek what is openid?
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Loqi OpenID is a method of using an HTTP URL as an identity for signing into websites https://indiewebcamp.com/OpenID
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tantek oh someone already captured Google's OpenID 2.0 shutdown. good.
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aaronpk i think that's pretty much the nail in the coffin for openid
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tantek google doesn't really care about federated identity interop anyway
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tantek based on their behavior with providing vs. consuming openid, all they care about is openwashing the consumption of G+ identities
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tantek it's fine, the more the big silos muck around with their-silo-only identity strategies, the more time it gives indieauth to independently grow and flourish without them screwing it up
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acegiak.net edited /scrobble (+0) "fixing wiki markup" (view diff)
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@andrewtj @marcoarment any of the IndieWeb stuff on your radar? (Only cursorily familiar with it myself.) (twitter.com/_/status/567535485606952960)
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@airbornesurfer @stevenb18 Fair. I'm trying to figure out how best to post from the site first, then syndicate. #IndieWeb #StillLearning (twitter.com/_/status/567535568188231682)
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ben_thatmust_ We need to find someone on the G+ team and get then to come to a camp
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ben_thatmust_ its a long shot that it would go anywhere but even minor tweaks to get it slightly closer to indieweb friendly would be a step in the right direction
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GWG Who does standards and markup over there?
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@dissolve333 @elatable Ever thought of making G+ #indieweb friendly? Come to an indiewebcamp someday. (btmb.me s/7_) (twitter.com/_/status/567540219700715520)
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snarfed honestly guys, don't bother. they had good intentions for a long time but were always fighting to survive first and foremost, so they were never able to prioritize it
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snarfed and now they're a lot smaller and things have changed a lot
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snarfed if you want to lobby them for anything at all, i'd start with a write API
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snarfed (but i know that won't happen)
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snarfed ah well
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@theboxfactory @benwerd Is there any form of directory for sites powered by @withknown ? #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/567543047739539456)
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tantek ben_thatmust: we had G+ / Google people show up to the original IndieWebCamp - Chris Messina, WIll Norris
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tantek what is 2011?
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Loqi https://indiewebcamp.com/2011
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tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/2011/Guest_List
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tantek ben_thatmust: the people that come to indiewebcamp lack sufficient internal influence to actually make such big differences in G+
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tantek and the management types that *do* have internal influence are themselves measured by silo-driven metrics / goals
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tantek which goes all the way up to the top
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tantek which is measured by stock price performance
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tantek lots of short-term / fear-centric driven motivations / decisions, except at the individual contributor / coder / designer level - where they lack the influence to make such bold decisions
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tantek it's a fundamental flaw in large corporate structures that prevents them from innovating in a disruptive distributed network effects fashion
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tantek and they did try hard - but in some ways they got burned with Google Buzz's failure (which did support a bunch of open standards)
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@theboxfactory @benwerd Great. I think that would be a great resource to bring sites powered by @withknown together. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/567545049039126529)
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tantek ^^^ how about we start an opt-in directory on a wiki page for starters?
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@benwerd @theboxfactory Although, tbh, why not *all* #indieweb compatible sites ...? :) (twitter.com/_/status/567545194258898944)
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tantek ben_thatmust: and if you're looking for groups / companies / projects come to a camp, invite from smallest first to largest last
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tantek smalledst = individuals who want / run their own sites, then small maybe unknown projects, etc.
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snarfed tantek++ that generally fits my impressions of G+ from the inside too
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Loqi tantek has 148 karma
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tantek the smaller the team / project, the more nimble and able to adapt / evolve and be bold, the greater the chance of rapid success, feedback loop etc.
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tantek with each one of those, then pursue the next one slightly larger
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tantek as the overall number of people / projects that participate in indiewebcamp grows, the network effects will start to convince more and more
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tantek the only time the bigcos like Google will bother will when they can't ignore it
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tantek and the other key part - never have your platform / protocols / formats *depend* on bigco adoption, because then as soon as they adopt it, they will subvert it and attempt to control / dominate it
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tantek that being said, contacting people on *old* projects, like Blogger, and getting incremental improvements, like h-entry support on blog post permalinks etc. may have a better chance of success, without providing a takeover threat
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tantek but that's basically your only "early" opportunity with bigco adoption, small under-the-radar changes that management doesn't care enough to notice
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tantek and this is the difference between indieweb and all the "federated" "distributed" "decentralized" monoculture proejcts out there: https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/567545194258898944
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@benwerd @theboxfactory Although, tbh, why not *all* #indieweb compatible sites ...? :) (twitter.com/_/status/567545194258898944)
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@acegiak Ben Werdmüller: @theboxfactory Although, tbh, why not *all* #indieweb compatible sites ...? :): One of the - http://acegiak.net/2015/02/17/ben-werdmuller-theboxfactory-although-tbh-why-not-all-indieweb-compatible-sites/ (twitter.com/_/status/567550426375917568)
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tantek acegiak - interesting (and a bit odd?) your POSSE @-reply included the reply-context - pretty sure you don't want that :)
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acegiak tantek: hmm yeah I need to make it recognise when I'm replying to twitter
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tantek acegiak are you using a plugin to write your replies?
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acegiak cause I do want the context when I'm just sharing posts from tumblr
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tantek you also likely want to have your POSSE copy of your reply thread with the original POSSE copy
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tantek per https://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_Replies_to_Twitter
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acegiak oh! I see! it's because I was replying to the known post
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tantek but that's good! your software should automatically notice that the Known post has a POSSE copy
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tantek via the rel-syndication link
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tantek where it asys "Also on: @benwerd" in the footer of Ben's known post
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acegiak yeah
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acegiak I think I'll have to put that on my todo list
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acegiak I also don't post the syndication links on my content
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tantek then when your software posts a POSSE copy to Twitter, it should set the in-reply-to-id to the Twitter ID from that rel-syndication link!
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GWG acegiak: I have a plugin I'm working on refining to put in the repository for that
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acegiak yeah. I yeah I noticed
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GWG It's getting better
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acegiak but i still need to update whisperfollow to pickup the syndication links and my posse plugin to use them
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david.shanske.com edited /subdomain (+131) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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david.shanske.com edited /subdomain (+1) "/* = David Shanske */" (view diff)
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@acegiak Well I've got my Last.Fm scrobbles showing up on my #indieweb blog! Evening building WP_LastFmScrape well spent. - http://acegiak.net/2015/02/17/8562/ (twitter.com/_/status/567553503816470528)
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david.shanske.com edited /short-domains (+66) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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acegiak oh my god do I really not have my profile photo marked up for h-card?
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tantek acegiak++ awesome for owningyourscrobbles!
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Loqi acegiak has 10 karma
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acegiak tantek: it's PESOS till I can work out how to build a micropub scrobbler
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snarfed Jeena: just fyi, looks like your webmention handler breaks on your photo pages. https://www.brid.gy/facebook/728407677#responses
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acegiak which is mostly just working out indieauth on an android app
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snarfed acegiak: eh not really. you can get a long-lived token and hard-code it into the app
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acegiak snarfed: I guess I can do the "please paste your token here" thing
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snarfed exactly
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acegiak which is what I do with a lot of my wordpress plugins
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acegiak getting the oauth dance right for tumblr posse though, jesus
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colintedford.com edited /User:Colintedford.com (+44) "/* Colin Tedford */ Exact date I started using my domain (WHOIS reminder reminded me)" (view diff)
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@t @elfpavlik #IndieWeb focuses on: #ownyourdata, own notes > tweets #UX #design > protocols More: http://indiewebcamp.com/principles (ttk.me t4_h2) (twitter.com/_/status/567567754304040961)
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kylewm acegiak: hey just noticed class="u-url" is missing from post links in your h-feed
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@t @elfpavlik #IndieWeb focuses on: #ownyourdata, own notes > tweets #UX #design > protocols More: http://indiewebcamp.com/principles (ttk.me t4_h2) (twitter.com/_/status/567568209809666050)
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kylewm I was excited to see the scrobble storm hit woodwind, but it didn't bc it couldn't find permalinks :(
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acegiak kylewm: huh. look at that. I'll fix it and push at GWG
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acegiak kylewm: does my h-card not read for you either?
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kylewm acegiak: i haven't been getting an avatar for you for a while, but i haven't dug into why
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kylewm https://kylewm.com/services/mf2util?url=http%3A%2F%2Facegiak.net%2F
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acegiak kylewm: apparently I was missing u-photo on the photo
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acegiak but I think I fixed that this arvo
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acegiak hmmm....
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tantek well that's my attempt to provide a productive reply to elf, about what the indieweb would ever use
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kylewm tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 149 karma
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acegiak so the problem is the location of my h-card I think
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kylewm oh, is it split across two h-cards?
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@kevinmarks RT @acegiak: Well I've got my Last.Fm scrobbles showing up on my #indieweb blog! Evening building WP_LastFmScrape well spent. - http://t.co… (twitter.com/_/status/567569991407394816)
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Loqi [bridgy] shan favorited a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/principles (https://twitter.com/t/status/567568209809666050)
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acegiak what the beans...
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acegiak dear wordpress: that is not a permalink. what have you done with the postslug?
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@correctdesign elfpavlik #IndieWeb focuses on: #ownyourdata, own notes > tweets #UX #design > protocols More: http://indiewebcamp.com/principles (ttk.me t4_h2) (twitter.com/_/status/567571748506595332)
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kylewm acegiak: oh I see, so your h-card at the top is great, but the hidden byline on each post supersedes it
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acegiak it would be great if I could somehow say "see at top"
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acegiak I could just not mark up the byline with hcard
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kylewm reads /authorship...
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acegiak at the moment though I'm just updating WP_LastFmScrape to manually populate the slugs because even though the WP docs say it will autopopulate from the title and every other time it's autopopulated from title
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acegiak it's not autopopulating from title
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@t @kevinmarks @marcoarment great post “build what we want” core to #indieweb http://indiewebcamp.com/principles Let's work together. (ttk.me t4_h3) (twitter.com/_/status/567573245570715648)
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kylewm acegiak, i vote remove the byline from individual posts ... gets rid of some invisible data anyway
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kylewm there was something about munging together two h-cards with the same u-url as the current page's rel=author, but i can't find it now
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acegiak kylewm: yeah, good plan. the reason i did it that way Is I've just been playing with CSS on top of GWG's mf2_s
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@t @hmans I wish I could reply-to, like, and send a webmention to your wish at an #IndieWeb permalink on hmans.io :) (ttk.me t4_h4) (twitter.com/_/status/567574806954921984)
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tantek hmans: :)
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acegiak kylewm: ok u-url is sorted
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kylewm acegiak: little typo, you've got rel="bookmark u-url"
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kylewm instead of class="u-url"
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acegiak fixed
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kylewm acegiak++ scrobbles and tantek's likes are going to motivate me to add some smart-ish "similar post types in a similar time period" aggregation to my reader
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Loqi acegiak has 11 karma
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acegiak kylewm: temprorary fix for the invisible byline
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acegiak I'll have to update the theme to use action hooks there properly
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kylewm ruh roh, now i have no author for you...
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acegiak really?
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acegiak so my header h-card ain't reading?
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tantek aaronpk, this one is for you: https://twitter.com/t/status/567578089421422593
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@t @julien51 please add your tweets to your own site, in both h-entry & your RSS feed too. Yummier than non-RSS tweets :) (ttk.me t4_h5) (twitter.com/_/status/567578089421422593)
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acegiak hmmm
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acegiak bbiab gotta go find some things for dinner
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kylewm acegiak: adding "p-author" on the h-feed's h-card would get it, i think. headed to bed, good night y'all
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Loqi gute nacht!
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Loqi [bridgy] UXcountry favorited a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/principles (https://twitter.com/t/status/567568209809666050)
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Loqi [bridgy] Gunnar Bittersmann favorited a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/principles (https://twitter.com/t/status/567568209809666050)
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tantek I've posted a "Jam" as a note http://tantek.com/2015/047/t7/mornings-look-for-me-trackish-tuesday and manually POSSEd it to ThisIsMyJam: https://www.thisismyjam.com/t/_9nrd6ge
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tantek not sure if anyone else is trying to ownyourjams
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tantek I figured I'd try experimenting with it
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Loqi [bridgy] ☮ elf Pavlik ☮ favorited a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/principles (https://twitter.com/t/status/567568209809666050)
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petermolnar good morning, indieweb
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petermolnar can someone please point me to a good PHP Oauth 1.0 tutorial?
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cweiske I can help you if you have questions
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@pierreozoux @dariusdunlap @indiewebcamp One more step! OCSP stapling FTW :) https://wiki.mozilla.org/Security/Server_Side_TLS#Nginx https://twitter.com/pierreozoux/status/567639198342324224/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/567639198342324224)
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petermolnar cweiske thanks, it turned out that 500px is a special snowflake :/
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petermolnar so the problem was not in my knowledge
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petermolnar it's using 1.0a not 1.0
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cweiske 1.0a is standard since it fixes a security problem
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cweiske nobody should use plain 1.0 anymore
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pfefferle cweiske it is a bit confusing because the RFC is also called 1.0 and includes the fix
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cweiske yes. although in the introduction paragraph 1 they say the rfc is based on 1.0a
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cweiske or, p2
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Loqi [mention] http://corsi.youmediaweb.com/le-nuove-tesi-del-cluetrain-manifesto-di-giulio-gaudiano/ linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/Principles (pingback)
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GWG !tell acegiak I missed a u-url? Darn
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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acegiak gwg: i've put it on the date link cuse sometimes theres no title
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Loqi acegiak: GWG left you a message 1 minute ago: I missed a u-url? Darn
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GWG acegiak: I'll add it in now.
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acegiak you can see how ive done it on acegiak.net
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acegiak also you calls to posted_on and posted_by should probably be done with action hooks
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GWG I just added it.
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GWG acegiak: Put that in as an issue if you can. I'll have a look.
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acegiak will do
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GWG That one isn't a quick fix. Requires more review
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acegiak the reason being i want my chillld theme to not show byline so that mf2parsers use the hcard in my pages head
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GWG That's why I split the line initially.
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GWG The original _s had the byline and posted on in the same function
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /2015/Cambridge (+4105) "Adding a bunch more content from last year's IWC Cambridge" (view diff)
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petermolnar 500px is giving me a massive headache... the request token url goes Server Error once I fill in the required data...
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petermolnar is there anyone around who is willing to test a WordPress Flickr comment/fav importer plugin? There was one among the plugins, but that triggered the import on pageviews, so I made new one which triggers it with wp-cron
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petermolnar https://github.com/petermolnar/cimp-flickr
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GWG petermolnar: Regrettably, don't use Flickr
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petermolnar yeah, I've realised that, this was something I done _before_ trying to to the 500px version
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petermolnar the flickr one was enough for a skeleton and to see if it's working
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petermolnar the 500px one... I hate OAuth...
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petermolnar s/to to/to do
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@dissolve333 @Meetup support for #indiewebcamp RSVPs would be an awesome way to join events. (btmb.me s/7c) (twitter.com/_/status/567666050913693698)
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GWG petermolnar: I do have a question for you
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petermolnar sure
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GWG petermolnar: What is WordPress still missing in regards to Indieweb
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GWG ?
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GWG We've made a lot of progress of late
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GWG MicroPub and such
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petermolnar I've seen the Micropub endpoint, I did not have time to test it though
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petermolnar on the POSSE part there are still providers no one added a plugin yet (500px as an example)
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petermolnar the backfeed is another thing, I'd love to add brid.gy extensions in, but again, time
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petermolnar I'll think about it, but at this very moment, I don't know
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GWG petermolnar: Just want to set some goals
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GWG A 'group' itches page
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petermolnar I'll think about it, there is nothing at this very moment
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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@squiddle RT @aaronpk: Thanks to @schnarfed, there is now a #micropub plugin for Wordpress! https://wordpress.org/plugins/micropub/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/567693401106419712)
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@btconf Hey @nerdhub_cgn. Both dates, for #btconf and #IndieWebCamp in Düsseldorf are wrong in your calendar. Do you need the correct dates from me? (twitter.com/_/status/567700447365177344)
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tantek good morning #indiewebcamp!
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ben_thatmustbeme good morning
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GWG Morning
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gRegor` Morning, all.
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pfefferle good morning
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GWG Anyone working on anything they want to mention?
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GWG I could use a good chat
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com (+98) "/* Interests */ character count" (view diff)
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tantek GWG: I'm working on: https://twitter.com/t/status/567526574052761603
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@t Still working on figuring out a good design to collapse presentation of likes of same type of thing from same source. (ttk.me t4_h1) (twitter.com/_/status/567526574052761603)
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tantek e.g. check near top of tantek.com for a few examples
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GWG So, two Twitter likes?
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tantek sorry, look further down, e.g. likes of a whole bunch of tweets
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tantek and then likes of a whole bunch of NovemberProjectSF’s photos
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GWG Ok
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tantek ideally I'd show a mini row or grid of photos, for the "likes of a bunch of photos from the same source" case like that
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tantek but short of having thumbnails, I'd like to do something more intelligent with the text
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ben_thatmustbeme gRegor` kylewm I'd love to get private messaging working at some point
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ben_thatmustbeme per https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2015/2/17/1/
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gRegor` I'm interested too, though it's a lower priority itch
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kylewm.com created /Huffduffer (+626) "stub a page copied from friendly#Huffduffer" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /Huffduffer (+0) "fix curly brace" (view diff)
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GWG tantek: Grids are a pain
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GWG That reminds me, re Podcasts...I was talking to a friend of mine. Anyone interested in doing a recording re Indieweb for HPR?
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tantek but they look nice!
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gRegor` What's HPR?
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tantek what is HPR?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "HPR" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=HPR&summary=%28prompted+by+tantek+https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-17/line/1424189662398%29
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gRegor` could have out-tanteked tantek, but didn't
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GWG Hacker Public Radio
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GWG http://hackerpublicradio.org/
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GWG It's a free for all
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tantek welcome's gRegor`s out-tanteking ;)
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ben_thatmustbeme begins writing a bot to look for 3 letter words in caps and "Tantek" them immediately
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gRegor` ooh boy
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kylewm I'm trying to subscribe to my h-feed via PuSH, still getting a mysterious "Please provide a valid hub.topic (feed) URL that is accepted on this hub. The hub does not match."
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kylewm I reached out to Julien, hopefully I am just making a silly mistake
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kylewm I'm not clear on what the different subdomains on superfeedr do; not sure if I should be using kylewm.superfeedr.com as my hub or http://push.superfeedr.com/ or http://push.superfeedr.com/ or http://pubsubhubbub.superfeedr.com/
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kylewm oops sorry for listing push twice
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gRegor` (I should have said OOH BOY above)
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@kevinmarks @evanatmedium @Medium is a silo too. If it enabled posting on our own sites too (via http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub for example) that would be great (twitter.com/_/status/567725792159756288)
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Loqi [bridgy] Evan Hansen favorited a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub (https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/567725792159756288)
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Loqi [bridgy] Aaron Parecki favorited a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/principles (https://twitter.com/t/status/567568209809666050)
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petermolnar are there any oauth gurus around? no matter which library I'm trying to use, I cannot get pass the request token point of 500px; I get an 500 internal server error and I cannot confirm if it's me doing something wrong or it's their side
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@aaronpk @julien51 @t At this point I don't read my Twitter timeline anymore, I mostly find tweets from hashtag... #indieweb http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2015/02/17/1/indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/567731104308678656)
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aaronpk waves at petermolnar
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aaronpk if you'r egetting an internal server error that is definitely their fault. at the very least they should be giving you a sane error reply if you're doing something wrong
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petermolnar i have a feeling they either dropped oauth1 or it's broken on their side
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gregorlove.com created /Blip (+1377) "stub" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /Blip (+89) "/* History */" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com created /Blip.tv (+18) "r" (view diff)
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gRegor` What is Blip.tv?
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Loqi Blip (formerly blip.tv) is a silo for hosting web video series https://indiewebcamp.com/Blip.tv
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ben_thatmustbeme oh yay, aaronpk, they just finished backporting the SNI not sending hostname on reconnect bug to ruby 2.0 and 2.1
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Loqi does a happy dance!
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: oh nice!
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ben_thatmustbeme so if that is still an issue at all, it will be gone soon
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aaronpk it is still an issue, I'v e just been restarting the server every hour in the mean time
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ben_thatmustbeme ouch
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ben_thatmustbeme what version of ruby are you on?
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aaronpk 1.9.3p545 :(
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aaronpk I think I can update to 2.1 though, i've been running 2.1.3 on my laptop and everything seems to be working fine
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ben_thatmustbeme https://twitter.com/dissolve333/status/567666050913693698
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@dissolve333 @Meetup support for #indiewebcamp RSVPs would be an awesome way to join events. (btmb.me s/7c) (twitter.com/_/status/567666050913693698)
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ben_thatmustbeme https://twitter.com/meetup_support/status/567725850838061056
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@meetup_support @dissolve333 Interesting idea! I'm not sure if something like that is planned, but we'll let the right people know. (twitter.com/_/status/567725850838061056)
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aaronpk nice
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ben_thatmustbeme one step at a time
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KartikPrabhu http://paul.kinlan.me/what-happened-to-web-intents/
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KartikPrabhu lessons for indieweb design
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KartikPrabhu tantek ^^ you might appreciate this one
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KartikPrabhu foudn via adactio
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KartikPrabhu adactio thanks for sharing links on your site. I find a lot of cool stuff from there
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adactio KartikPrabhu: My pleasure! Glad someone's reading 'em. :-)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: most of the lessons that Paul Kinlan documents in that post were *exactly* what I told him when we met very early on when he was developing Google web intents, specifically about the need to get the UX right first. But he kept ignoring my feedback. And others' too.
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tantek so I gave up on it
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KartikPrabhu seems like he has come around to it, but maybe too late for intents
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tantek hence the conceptual "fork" to reframe the problem as *web actions*
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tantek he even admits that naming it intents was a mistake
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KartikPrabhu nods
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tantek problem is, he's at Google, and lots of people like to just agree with Google proposals because they come from Google, and they're trying to curry favor with Google, Google people, anyone
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tantek bit of a fanboi effect
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tantek so I think he got *just enough* positive re-inforcing feedback to hide the actual problems, and ignore critical feedback as "not getting it"
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KartikPrabhu hmm
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tantek that's a very difficult psychological trap to escape from, so from that perspective I sympathize with him
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tantek there's also an pretty big attitude internally at Google (among many/most, but not all) engineers about not being able to do any wrong, by definition since they're all "Don't be evil". it's an odd variant of arrogance.
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KartikPrabhu tantek I recall reading something similar at FB. Where if you criticise something "you don't get it"
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tantek here's a few articles
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tantek http://www.cnbc.com/id/101923422
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tantek http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/22/technology/dont-be-evil-but-dont-miss-the-tech-train.html?_r=0
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tantek and even back in 2007: http://archive.fortune.com/2007/08/06/technology/google_schlender.fortune/index.htm
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tantek somewhere there was an article about Google employee's widespread blindspot in this regard, but I can't find it right now
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KartikPrabhu cool thanks. will read those later in the day
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KartikPrabhu speaking of Google, wasn't GTalk supposed to shutdown yesterday or something
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KartikPrabhu still works for me
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@LukasRosenstock More original publishing goes to @Medium so we have to be careful not to let decentralized blogs die: http://meshedsociety.com/medium-centralized-publishing-and-the-future-of-the-blog/?utm_content=buffera4bcd&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/567741559119302657)
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petermolnar I'm giving it up; 500px OAuth is broken, period. I ended up using Keyring to test it; the exact same code is working for Twitter and failing for 500px, so I'll go home now.
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KevinMarks the other Googler problem is that becasue they know a lot about internal google plans, they are wary of talking to non-googlers in case they let somethignslip
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KevinMarks I got a lot of that when I was trying to encourage them to go to meetups, barcamps etc
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tantek hmm we need to cleanup/ resolve http://indiewebcamp.com/responses vs /interactions
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gRegor` What is 500px?
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Loqi 500px is a photo-sharing silo https://indiewebcamp.com/500px
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gRegor` !tell petermolnar Could you document your Oauth experience on the /500px page?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk that /responses page hasn't been touched in a while
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aaronpk huh I totally missed that whole debate
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tantek aaronpk - do you have an opinion?
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tantek on "responses" vs. "interactions"
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tantek since you've implemented such a section on your posts
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tantek or have another term?
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aaronpk I guess my first instinct is that "responses" would really only capture comments, whereas "interactions" would include likes and reposts
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aaronpk guess i'll add that
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tantek aaronpk - yeah that might have been my early influence
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tantek snarfed has slowly pushed me over to the "responses" (as a set) side
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ben_thatmustbeme i don't know, i see "like" as a fast reply "I like this"
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aaronpk i don't have an explicit header on my site for them
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ben_thatmustbeme coming into this convo a little late, will read back
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aaronparecki.com edited /interactions (+149) (view diff)
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tantek I think what pushed me over to the responses side was that it works better as a header
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aaronpk yeah I wouldn't put "interactions" as a header
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@jarofgreen @rhiaro http://meetyournextmp.com/ now accepts #indieweb WebMentions. Currently just logs in DB for me to look at later but it's a start :-) (twitter.com/_/status/567761000875962368)
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tantek e.g. KevinMarks used to have a heading "Webmentions" above where he included his JS embed to display webmentions
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aaronpk but I think "interactions" is more descriptive of all of them
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tantek and I pointed out that that was a plumbing-centric view/wording
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KevinMarks yep
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tantek suggested "Responses" instead
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tantek which reads much better
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KevinMarks though as I don't use templates I still have some that say webmentions
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tantek thus since it's a more user-friendly / obvious term than "Interactions", that's what pushed me over
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@rhiaro @jarofgreen yaaayy, nice one James! #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/567761224872767489)
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@rhiaro RT @jarofgreen: @rhiaro http://meetyournextmp.com/ now accepts #indieweb WebMentions. Currently just logs in DB for me to look at later but it… (twitter.com/_/status/567761257387024385)
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aaronpk I would *consider* adding a header that says "responses" (would definitely not say interactions) but I try to avoid needing to include text like that at all
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KevinMarks eg http://www.kevinmarks.com/fragmentions.html#webmentions
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tantek lol at not renaming the fragment
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aaronpk similar to my design decision of not including third-party language on my site
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tantek aaronpk indeed! if you can make a design work with fewer borders / headings - so much the better!
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KevinMarks no fragment, it's a fragmention to webmentions
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tantek it means you're using space / type hierarchy more effectively
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tantek KevinMarks: I thought single-# fragmentions had to be 2+ words?
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aaronpk I just realized I have the webmention form with this text: "Have you written a response to this? Let me know the URL:"
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aaronpk note the use of "response"
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KevinMarks this is like the saxon/latin/greek game
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tantek exactly
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tantek though didn't that language come from adactio's form?
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rhiaro In my head it's a 'reaction', with or without its own content. So a reply/response is a reaction with content and a like/bookmark/fave/share/upvote/plusone is a reaction without content
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aaronpk i think so
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tantek rhiaro: great! add that to: http://indiewebcamp.com/interactions#Reactions
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rhiaro I probably wouldn't label a form/set of buttons with 'reaction' heading though
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rhiaro oh cool, you already have it
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KevinMarks so the saxon/latin/greek would be nod/response/interaction
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tantek right, just needs your "vote" on it with the explanation you gave
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rhiaro sure thing
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KevinMarks my thinking on single word fragmentions is that they are a fallback if no id or name exists
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tantek aaronpk: I've been leaning towards this topology: responses = (replies + reactions)
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kylewm KevinMarks: what's the fragmention attribute for? on <h2 fragmention="">webmentions</h2>
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@_aylien Microformats Extraction endpoint added to our API. Extract meaning from HTML http://blog.aylien.com/post/111295014148/feature-update-microformats-extraction-added-to #nlproc #indieweb https://twitter.com/_aylien/status/567763470994698240/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/567763470994698240)
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KevinMarks that's added by the plugin when it's resolving a fragmention so there's a target for CSS to style
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KevinMarks there is a danger with teminology to move from the concrete to the adstarct
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KevinMarks s/adstarct/abstract
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Loqi KevinMarks meant to say: there is a danger with teminology to move from the concrete to the abstract
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tantek to the *more* abstract
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@MikeWallly RT @_aylien: Microformats Extraction endpoint added to our API. Extract meaning from HTML http://blog.aylien.com/post/111295014148/feature-update-microformats-extraction-added-to #nlproc #indieweb http://t… (twitter.com/_/status/567763816419979264)
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tantek wat ^^^
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tantek aaronpk, and then I'm thinking of "interactions" as a secondary synonym for "responses"
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tantek e.g. I use "interactions" in talks, instead of saying "responses" all the time.
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tantek as one does with synonyms
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KevinMarks the saxon/latin/greek game goes with this as the greek forms are usually favoured by academics
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aaronparecki.com edited /interactions (+117) "/* Interactions */" (view diff)
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rhiaro.co.uk edited /interactions (+451) "/* Reactions */" (view diff)
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rhiaro Loqi is faster than my browser
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rhiaro for tweets and wiki updates
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aaronpk lol yeah
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rhiaro It's impressive
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tantek gives Loqi a chill pill.
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Loqi eats the chill pill.
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kevinmarks.com edited /interactions (+463) (view diff)
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@parsaghaffari RT @_aylien: Microformats Extraction endpoint added to our API. Extract meaning from HTML http://blog.aylien.com/post/111295014148/feature-update-microformats-extraction-added-to #nlproc #indieweb http://t… (twitter.com/_/status/567767501292175360)
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tantek benwerd, what is tapiriik?
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tantek what is runkeeper?
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Loqi RunKeeper is an exercise silo and native app for keeping track of running, biking and other physical activity https://indiewebcamp.com/runkeeper
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benwerd tapiriik seems to be an open source project to provide interoperability between fitness products and dropbox
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message 1 day, 12 hours ago: take a look at https://indiewebcamp.com/specifications#IndieWebCamp_Specifications and see if there's anything missing in terms of indiewebcamp specs being developed and implemented (e.g. in all your tools, sites, etc.) if so please add a local wiki link to it! Thanks.
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benwerd I haven't used it, but it's an interesting approach
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aaronpk it's open source?
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tantek what is midnight?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "midnight" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=midnight&summary=%28prompted+by+tantek+https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-17/line/1424201389946%29
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tantek what is an exercise tracker?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "exercise tracker" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=exercise+tracker&summary=%28prompted+by+tantek+https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-17/line/1424201409873%29
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benwerd aaronpk: yep, there's a link at the bottom of the homepage: https://tapiriik.com/
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tantek what is sleep?
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Loqi sleep is a passive metrics post type that indicates how much time (and often a graph of how deeply) a person has slept https://indiewebcamp.com/sleep
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tantek what is passive?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "passive" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=passive&summary=%28prompted+by+tantek+https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-17/line/1424201433821%29
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tantek aaronpk ^^^ I think you're the current king of passive
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tantek passive posts that is ;)
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KevinMarks still wants to spawn wiki pages by writing "midnight is the arbitrary endpoint of a calendar day"
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aaronpk KevinMarks: oh yeah...
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aaronpk the trick is auth
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KevinMarks and have loqi boilerplate ti for me
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aaronpk would the Loqi user make the edit?
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Loqi grins profusely
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@unicoderainbows RT @_aylien: Microformats Extraction endpoint added to our API. Extract meaning from HTML http://blog.aylien.com/post/111295014148/feature-update-microformats-extraction-added-to #nlproc #indieweb http://t… (twitter.com/_/status/567768485134102528)
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KevinMarks hm, can you not submit body text in the wiki form like that?
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aaronpk i don't think so
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aaronpk i guessed at the "summary" parameter
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aaronpk totally worked
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KevinMarks hm, the field is called wpSummary
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@raretrack @theboxfactory @benwerd @withknown +1 for an #indieweb directory (twitter.com/_/status/567769886693523456)
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@KevinBoylee RT @_aylien: Microformats Extraction endpoint added to our API. Extract meaning from HTML http://blog.aylien.com/post/111295014148/feature-update-microformats-extraction-added-to #nlproc #indieweb http://t… (twitter.com/_/status/567770253133099008)
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gRegor` Re-visiting my earlier thoughts, I think I prefer "responses" now. I don't think the confusion with "replies" (as in "comments") will be a problem since /replies points to /comment
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KevinMarks ah, there's a way with preloadparams[]
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KevinMarks http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Sandbox?action=edit&section=new&preload=Manual:Creating_pages_with_preloaded_text/param_demo&preloadparams%5b%5d=first%20value&preloadparams%5b%5d=second%20value
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tantek gRegor`: update your comment! http://indiewebcamp.com/interactions#Responses :)
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tantek benwerd - since you proposed an *opt-in* directory
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tantek you may be interested to know that KevinMarks and I proposed a way (format+ping) for blogs to opt-into directories back in the day
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gregorlove.com edited /interactions (+262) "/* Responses */ update my vote" (view diff)
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gRegor` Already was ;)
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gRegor` Wanted an IRC link first
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tantek benwerd: http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-directory
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tantek yeah that was almost 10 years ago, the last time innovation was active in this space ;)
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tantek as an update, we would simply add a webmention
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tantek that is once you've linked your blog home page to a directory page that you think it should be included in with rel=directory, then send a webmention *to* that directory page
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tantek the directory page verifies your webmention per usual (source being your blog home page, target being the directory page itself), and then adds you (modulo vouch if needed)
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tantek could also be used for dynamic inclusion in distributed webrings
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tantek since a webring is just a special kind of directory
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@spazenport RT Rave_ReviewsBC: Congrats to #RRBC's February BOOKS OF THE MONTH!! Please check them out at http://t.co/TeewgHZiZL. #MustRead #IndieAuth… (twitter.com/_/status/567772773171625984)
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kylewm suddenly so mad that we don't have an indiewebring
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aaronpk oh man
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aaronpk I like the webmention-powered directory idea!
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kevinmarks.com created /Template:loqidef (+34) "template for tanteking responses" (view diff)
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KevinMarks hm, is preloadparams not supported in our install?
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KevinMarks https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=midnight&summary=%28prompted+by+tantek+https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-17/line/1424201389946%29&preload=Template:loqidef&preloadparams[]=midnight&preloadparams[]=the%20arbitrary%20endpoint%20of%20a%20calendar%20day
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aaronpk i've never heard of that before
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KevinMarks http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Parameters_to_index.php#Options_affecting_the_edit_form
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KevinMarks needs MW 1.23
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aaronpk ah that's the problem
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kevinmarks.com created /midnight (+292) "(prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-17/line/1424201389946)" (view diff)
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KevinMarks what is midnight?
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Loqi midnight is the arbitrary endpoint of a calendar day https://indiewebcamp.com/midnight
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KevinMarks so you can use preload=Template:loqidef but manually replace the $1 and $2
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loqi.me created /midnight-test (+83) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-17/line/1424201389946 added by KevinMarks" (view diff)
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aaronpk now the hard part
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KevinMarks ?
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aaronpk tracking state
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aaronpk between the "what is..." and "____ is"
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KevinMarks you could accept arbitary ___ is
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aaronpk but then it couldn't do prompted by
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aaronpk also that would be bad
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KevinMarks though i can see that spawning a lot of pages
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aaronpk there's way too much "___ is" in natural chatter
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KevinMarks you're recreatig jibot with the wiki as a backing store
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KevinMarks aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 704 karma
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aaronpk hehe, Loqi used to have his own "what is" database but it got annoying quickly
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Loqi woot!
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KevinMarks with jibot the syntax was ?def
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KevinMarks ?def kevinmarks
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KevinMarks woudl give the def
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KevinMarks ?def kevinmarks is ___
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KevinMarks woudl append to the def
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KevinMarks ?forget kevinmarks is ___
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KevinMarks would delete that bit
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jcap out of curiosity, what are you solving for? (just curious, and hello)
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KevinMarks hi jcap
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KevinMarks we want to expand definitions of terms
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KevinMarks if I say what is webmention?
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Loqi Webmention is a simple way to notify any URL when you link to it on your site https://indiewebcamp.com/Webmention
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KevinMarks if I say what is jibot?
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KevinMarks what is jibot?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "jibot" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=jibot&summary=%28prompted+by+KevinMarks+https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-17/line/1424203838084%29
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KevinMarks we want to add a way to detect me saying:
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KevinMarks jibot is an irc bot from the #joiito channel on freenode
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KevinMarks and have it create the page
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jcap ah, I thought that was a standard bot feature, no?
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jcap oh
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jcap I see, which doesn't matter if it's not writing ot a wiki
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aaronpk lol "standard bot feature"
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jcap I suppose it would be pretty noisy if it just picked up all is declarations
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KevinMarks creates bot standardisation institute
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KevinMarks jibots defs got pretty big
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jcap I'm still trying to understand how reply, like, bookmark, share, (and a few other words) are differen't yet similar to each other in the indieweb world
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jcap but I'll get there
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KevinMarks it is tricky - there are nuances
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KevinMarks especially when mapping from silos
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jcap KevinMarks, yeah, that doesn't help
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KevinMarks well, our mapping is that they are implemented as /webmention
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KevinMarks so the base case is a reply or /response
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KevinMarks but they can be specialised by different kinds of /posts
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KevinMarks so you can always parse a webmention as a post response
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jcap which is the most abstract definition? /webmention?
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jcap and a response is a webmention?
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snarfed KevinMarks++ for loqi writing to the wiki
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KevinMarks well /post is the base type
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Loqi KevinMarks has 82 karma
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jcap KevinMarks, ah, sure, that makes sense
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KevinMarks the specialisations of http://indiewebcamp.com/posts#Kinds_of_Posts depend on you recognising them
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jcap oh, great link
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KevinMarks the webmention is how you communicate that a /response has been made
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jcap ah right, this is the modern day version of a web ping or whatever that was from back in the day?
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KevinMarks yes
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jcap got it
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gRegor` pingback, yes. Sans XML
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KevinMarks for example Known counts likes and reposts and summarizes them http://known.kevinmarks.com/2015/quiet-wadha-episode-45-of-tldr-that-has-been-supressed
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KevinMarks 27 stars 35 reposts
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KevinMarks but displays them as individual likes
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KevinMarks whereas webmention.herokuapp.com will make a facepile: http://www.kevinmarks.com/we-like-indieweb-software.html#responses
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jcap KevinMarks, you confused me with your example
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jcap well, didn't confuse me, but I don't follow ;)
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KevinMarks that post has received a bunch of differnt kinds of responses
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jcap right
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jcap 27,6 35
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jcap I'm with you so far
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KevinMarks and they are displayed sorted by type then time at the bottom
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KevinMarks the second link displays the likes ad reposts as a facepile, not listed out by time
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KevinMarks only the comments get that treatment
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KevinMarks but the mechanism of a webmention was the same
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loqi.me edited /midnight-test (-34) "prompted by aaronpk https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-17/line/1424205025612 added by aaronpk" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com deleted /midnight-test "was a test"
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loqi.me created /midnight-test (+49) "prompted by aaronpk and dfn added by aaronpk" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com deleted /midnight-test "test"
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aaronpk KevinMarks: there you go
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aaronpk careful though, you can clobber wiki pages! luckily it's a wiki so you can always undo it
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aaronpk you have two minutes to contribute a definition after someone asks
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KevinMarks hm, can you reject if the page exists?
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aaronpk that involves me writing lots more code :(
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aaronpk oh wiat!
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aaronpk createonly
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aaronpk "Don't edit the page if it exists already"
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KevinMarks the prompt shoudl handle that tho
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KevinMarks you won't be in a listening state if the page existed when the "what is" was asked
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jcap KevinMarks, oh, I see what you mean now. yes, got it
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jcap KevinMarks, thanks!
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aaronpk right now the prompt is using the search api which has some limitations
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loqi.me created /right_now_the_prompt (+97) "0 and dfn added by aaronpk" (view diff)
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Loqi
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aaronpk HEY LOQI
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Loqi dude
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aaronparecki.com deleted /right_now_the_prompt "fail"
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KevinMarks is giggling like mad
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aaronpk failing is fun
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aaronpk much better
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aaronpk i have no idea what value i'm supposed to use for "createonly"
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snarfed aaronpk++ for writable loqi!!!
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Loqi aaronpk has 705 karma
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snarfed estimates this will triple his wiki contributions
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aaronpk yay!
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Loqi does a happy dance!
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aaronpk waits for the first real wiki edit by loqi
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KevinMarks where are all the questions?
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aaronpk where'd everyone go!
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gRegor` Does it accept wiki redirect syntax too?
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aaronpk gRegor`: not sure what you mean...
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aaronpk oh, no
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gRegor` Like x i.s #redirect [[destination]]
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jcap I can see now all the i.s usage
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aaronpk don't worry you can still say something is something
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KevinMarks ah, so if you say "responses is interactions" it creates a link?
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gRegor` Or iz
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gRegor` I meant specifically the wiki syntax: #redirect [[destination]]
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jcap aaronpk, it only looks for single words / camelcase?
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aaronpk it'll only make the page if there was a prompt in the last 2 minutes
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gRegor` If it just drops the text in the page, it should work.
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gRegor` Ah, so the prompt has to come first. Cool.
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aaronpk gRegor`: i'll do that
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jcap nifty
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aaronpk actually it'll be this: responses is [[interactions]]
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gRegor` What is Loqi the bot?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Loqi the bot" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Loqi+the+bot&summary=prompted+by+gRegor%60+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-02-17%2Fline%2F1424206445674
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gRegor` Loqi the bot is #redirect [[Loqi]]
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loqi.me created /Loqi_the_bot (+60) "prompted by gRegor` https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-17/line/1424206445674 and dfn added by gRegor`" (view diff)
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Loqi
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gRegor` Oops. I was impatient. :)
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aaronpk yeah sheesh
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gRegor` What is impatien
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "impatien" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=impatien&summary=prompted+by+gRegor%60+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-02-17%2Fline%2F1424206548892
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aaronpk what is Loqi the bot?
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Loqi https://indiewebcamp.com/Loqi_the_bot
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KevinMarks or "responses is /interactions" as that is the irc syntax
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aaronpk Loqi the bot is [[Loqi]]
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aaronpk oh he won't clobber pages now too
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gRegor` Good jorb, Loqi
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aaronpk i *think* this will work...
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aaronparecki.com deleted /Special:Log/delete "deleted "[[Loqi the bot]]""
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aaronpk what is Loqi the bot?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Loqi the bot" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Loqi+the+bot&summary=prompted+by+aaronpk+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-02-17%2Fline%2F1424206688015
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aaronpk Loqi the bot is /Loqi
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loqi.me created /Loqi_the_bot (+49) "prompted by aaronpk https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-17/line/1424206688015 and dfn added by aaronpk" (view diff)
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Loqi
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jcap Loqi, what is a webmention?
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Loqi Webmention is a simple way to notify any URL when you link to it on your site https://indiewebcamp.com/Webmention
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aaronpk aw
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jcap Loqi, botsnack
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aaronpk gives Loqi a botsnack
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jcap damn. (another "standard" bot feature ;)
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Loqi grabs the botsnack
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jcap aha
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aaronpk there is nothing standard about loqi
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aaronpk ah there we go
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aaronparecki.com deleted /Loqi_the_bot "sorry for the wiki spam"
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aaronpk what is Loqi the bot?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Loqi the bot" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Loqi+the+bot&summary=prompted+by+aaronpk+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-02-17%2Fline%2F1424206809341
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aaronpk Loqi the bot is /Loqi
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loqi.me created /Loqi_the_bot (+13) "prompted by aaronpk https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-17/line/1424206809341 and dfn added by aaronpk" (view diff)
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Loqi
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gRegor` hehe
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aaronpk damn!
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aaronparecki.com deleted /Special:Log/delete "deleted "[[Loqi the bot]]""
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Loqi hehe
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aaronpk shut up loqi
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aaronpk what is Loqi the bot?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Loqi the bot" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Loqi+the+bot&summary=prompted+by+aaronpk+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-02-17%2Fline%2F1424206907997
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aaronpk Loqi the bot is /Loqi
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loqi.me created /Loqi_the_bot (+17) "prompted by aaronpk https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-17/line/1424206907997 and dfn added by aaronpk" (view diff)
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Loqi
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aaronpk thanks Loqi
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Loqi you're welcome
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aaronparecki.com edited /Loqi (-21) "added "was" alias for "what was"" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /Loqi (+122) "add "xyz is"" (view diff)
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aaronpk must resist urge to implement more Loqi features
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KevinMarks loqi++
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Loqi loqi has 337 karma
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gregorlove.com edited /events/2015-02-25-homebrew-website-club (+10) "/* URLs */" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] gRegor Morrill posted 'Chicago: Join us for Homebrew Website Club next Wednesday! http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-02-25-homebrew-website-club https://www.faceb...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-02-25-homebrew-website-club (/notes/2015/02/17/2/)
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/774862999256795#10152677263201794 was invited to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-02-25-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] Gregor Morrill RSVPed yes to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-02-25-homebrew-website-club (https://www.facebook.com/774862999256795#27301982)
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jcap it would be handy if Loqi formatted his changelogs a bit more, though I have no suggestions
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jcap maybe I just need to tweak irssi
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kylewm I believe they come pretty much verbatim from mediawiki
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aaronpk yeah I can't change the wiki edit notification
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aaronpk that's deep in mediawiki source
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@gRegorLove Chicago: Join us for Homebrew Website Club next Wednesday! http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-02-25-homebrew-website-club https://www.facebook.com/events/774862999256795/ cc @pitchdesign @marihuertas… (twitter.com/_/status/567798756712931328)
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snarfed jcap: they're prettier in the logs. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/today#bottom
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ben_thatmustbeme oh, i didn't realize #bottom was a thing
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ben_thatmustbeme still has to load the whole thing first though
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aaronpk we're too chatty
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@nlpbot Microformats Extraction endpoint added to our API. Extract meaning from HTML nlproc indieweb http://blog.aylien.com/post/111295014148/feature-update-microformats-extraction-added-to (twitter.com/_/status/567802872218521600)
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gRegor` It's the jump to bottom link at the top
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, i realize that now
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ben_thatmustbeme hope overwrote logic
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@andkjaer Listen To This: Why So Mad? from This American Life >> http://www.socialmediaexplorer.com/?p=25551&utm_content=buffer8ec78&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer #SocialMedia Tip from Matt Hollowell. #SelfPublish #IndieAuth… (twitter.com/_/status/567803932215640064)
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aaronpk what's that page that has all the thumbnails of everyone who attended an indiewebcamp?
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gRegor` https://indiewebcamp.com/2014-review#This_Is_A_Movement
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aaronpk gRegornobacktick++
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Loqi gRegornobacktick has 42 karma
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kylewm What is a movement?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "movement" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=movement&summary=prompted+by+kylewm+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-02-17%2Fline%2F1424210122295
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kylewm movement is /2014-review#This_Is_A_Movement
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loqi.me created /movement (+43) "prompted by kylewm https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-17/line/1424210122295 and dfn added by kylewm" (view diff)
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Loqi
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aaronpk yay
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kylewm that worked great
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aaronpk this should be fun
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KevinMarks https://twitter.com/shazow/status/567797705570836480
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@shazow How to figure out what to build: 1. Build something, anything. 2. Get frustrated with the hardest parts, build tools to help. 3. Discard #1. (twitter.com/_/status/567797705570836480)
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kylewm worked for Ruby on Rails
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aaronpk and flickr and slack
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KevinMarks also Blogger
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kylewm had no idea that was the history of Flickr, reading wp now... fascinating
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aaronpk "Early versions of Flickr focused on a chat room called FlickrLive..." so that's where Slack came from
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aaronpk that also explains the in-game chat room that Glitch had
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aaronpk welcome back tantek, Loqi got smarter while you were away :)
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kylewm KevinMarks: what did Blogger come out of?
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KevinMarks it was an internal status notification thing at pyra
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KevinMarks for them to update each other about what they were working on
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tantek oh dear - did the chill pill have unintended side effects?!?
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kylewm "Google wanted to buy us. Yes, that Google."
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tantek "internal status notification thing" and then Slack has the same origin story
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aaronpk tantek: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-17#t1424210122295
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tantek oh my goodness
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aaronpk lol
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tantek so you've pretty much created an AI
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KevinMarks makes tanteking less one-sided
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tantek it can both answer questions and be taught
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tantek IN ENGLISH
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KevinMarks what is CYC?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "CYC" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=CYC&summary=prompted+by+KevinMarks+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-02-17%2Fline%2F1424211913869
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tantek KevinMarks - CYC couldn't be taught using English like that.
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KevinMarks CYC is /Loqi
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loqi.me created /CYC (+17) "prompted by KevinMarks https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-17/line/1424211913869 and dfn added by KevinMarks" (view diff)
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Loqi
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tantek goodness, redirects as well
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ben_thatmustbeme this could be dangerous
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KevinMarks Slack was basically their loqi
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KevinMarks for Glitch
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ben_thatmustbeme what happens if loqi is told something is something else, if the page already exists?
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Loqi dude
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aaronpk loqi won't overwrite pages
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tantek what is a redirect?
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Loqi A redirect is a way to automatically make one page on this wiki load another page https://indiewebcamp.com/redirect
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ben_thatmustbeme good
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KevinMarks and will only enable creation if asked
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tantek what is Slack?
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Loqi https://indiewebcamp.com/Slack
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tantek what is Glitch?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Glitch" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Glitch&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-02-17%2Fline%2F1424212022731
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ben_thatmustbeme headed home
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KevinMarks Glitch is a new defunct game created by the founders of [[Slack]]
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loqi.me created /Glitch (+92) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-17/line/1424212022731 and dfn added by KevinMarks" (view diff)
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Loqi
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tantek new defunct is an odd oxymoron
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kevinmarks.com edited /Glitch (+1) (view diff)
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KevinMarks now my typos get to the wiki
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KevinMarks I'm assuming s/new /now-/ wouldn't edit the wiki too
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aaronpk lol not going there
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tantek lolol
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gRegor` Glitch was a fun game.
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gRegor` I miss it
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KevinMarks if writing CMS's is quixotic, is Wordpress a windmill?
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KevinMarks http://ma.tt/2015/02/developer-employment-act/
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tantek KevinMarks: scripts currently forbidden: 51
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KevinMarks ?
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tantek what NoScript reports on that URL you just pasted
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tantek that's what all the developer full time employment act programmers have been doing - writing more and more javascripts to be habitually included in every page for no good reason
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tantek seriously, a brief /quotation permalink does not need 51 script files
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KevinMarks heh
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aaronpk the nice thing is the site looks just fine without the JS
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tantek And programmers are going to bloat, bloat, bloat, bloat, bloat, bloat
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KevinMarks related (froma reply to matt) http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/internet/entries/47a96d23-ae04-444e-808f-678e6809765d
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tantek Just NoScript it off, NoScript it off.
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KevinMarks "On the front end we have embraced new technologies such as isomorphic Javascript using ReactJS. This allows us to execute our Javascript templates on both the server and the client meaning that users without Javascript can still load a basic version of the page."
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KevinMarks o_O
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KartikPrabhu why dos that site have any JS at all!?
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tantek KevinMarks: scripts currently forbidden: 41
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tantek KartikPrabhu: precisely
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KevinMarks also wtf is that slug
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gRegor` aaronpk: How is the WordPress import coming along?
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aaronpk remember when web analytics didn't even require js?
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KevinMarks "lets make permalinks big enough to enumerate atoms in the universe"
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aaronpk gRegor`: so close! i have to get comments/likes/reposts imported now
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gRegor` Haha KevinMarks
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gRegor` aaronpk: <img src="analytics.gif" width="1" height="1" />
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aaronpk or you know, your access logs
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aaronpk webalyzer!
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gRegor` Heh, yep
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gRegor` What is webalyzer?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "webalyzer" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=webalyzer&summary=prompted+by+gRegor%60+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-02-17%2Fline%2F1424213674550
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aaronpk webalyzer is a web [[analytics]] tool that parses a server's access logs and generates HTML reports
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loqi.me created /webalyzer (+126) "prompted by gRegor` https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-17/line/1424213674550 and dfn added by aaronpk" (view diff)
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Loqi
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tantek what is ReactJS?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "ReactJS" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=ReactJS&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-02-17%2Fline%2F1424213733302
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gRegor` Loqi does cooler stuff than my website.
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gRegor` Shown up by a bot.
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jgarber tantek: It's a Facebook-created JavaScript... thing... for creating user interfaces.
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jgarber The syntax is a weird mix of JavaScript and XML: https://facebook.github.io/react/
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loqi.me created /Taylor_Swift (+114) "prompted by kylewm and dfn added by gRegor`" (view diff)
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aaronpk lol
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gRegor` "and occasionally writes some songs"
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aaronpk lol how many domains do we have that redirect to wiki pages?
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aaronpk fragmention.org micropub.net p3k.io
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@philiprenich @t what are your thoughts on services like github as far as #indieweb go? Esp for private repos. Do you self host anything that isn't pub? (twitter.com/_/status/567827775249227776)
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@aaronpk @philiprenich @t There's a pretty thorough writeup on the wiki! http://indiewebcamp.com/Github #indieweb (http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2015/02/17/4/indieweb) (twitter.com/_/status/567828461177294848)
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GWG I need positivity.
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Loqi [mention] Aaron Parecki commented '@philiprenich @t There's a pretty thorough writeup on the wiki! http://indiewebcamp.com/Github #indieweb' on a post that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/Github (https://aaronparecki.com/replies/2015/02/17/4/indieweb)
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aaronpk GWG++
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Loqi GWG has 78 karma
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aaronpk was that positive enough?
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GWG aaronpk: Just having a bad day. Need to hear something good. Like someone doing something interesting on their site, or an idea that excites me
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aaronpk I am writing up a response to some indieweb interview questions for a german publication!
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KevinMarks loqi got smarter
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KevinMarks what is ReactJS?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "ReactJS" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=ReactJS&summary=prompted+by+KevinMarks+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-02-17%2Fline%2F1424215998282
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KevinMarks ReactJS is a messy combination of JS and HTML to make front end development more fragile, form [[Facebook]] [http://facebook.github.io/react/ github link]
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loqi.me created /ReactJS (+181) "prompted by KevinMarks https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-17/line/1424215998282 and dfn added by KevinMarks" (view diff)
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Loqi
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GWG aaronpk: Wonderbar?
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realjxn ha
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realjxn Messy combinations of JS and HTML are the new normal
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GWG Not for me
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GWG I keep trying to find fun things to do with CSS to avoid js
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Loqi [bridgy] Philip Renich replied '@aaronpk @t That was altogether too polite of a reply for someone who did zero searching before tweeting! 😣 Thank you, reading up.' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/Github (https://twitter.com/philiprenich/status/567830925020524544)
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aaronpk another benefit of all-html readers:
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aaronpk you can chain them together
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aaronpk like if I make a public stream in my reader, you'd be able to subscribe to it in your reader