#indiewebcamp 2015-04-13

2015-04-13 UTC
frzn and ScruffyDan joined the channel
#
bengo
@kylewm wrt authenticating incoming requests. ID Tokens are really rad: https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2013/04/04/ID-Tokens
#
kylewm
bengo: special case of JWT?
#
bengo
Yeah, basically
#
bengo
OIDC is basically just oAuth2 + JWT+ some conventions around how one uses some of the JWT values and oAuth2 concepts
#
bengo
e.g. self-issued ID Tokens may be relevant for indieweb. Haven't studied it much http://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-core-1_0.html#SelfIssuedValidation
snarfed joined the channel
#
snarfed
ooh, wait, this is a democracy, right?
#
snarfed
i vote tokens.indieauth.com :P
j12t joined the channel
#
bengo
IMO, an indieweb-friendly API MUST let me use my own authorization server instead of just tokens.indieauth.com
#
bengo
Supporting both is great
#
bengo
But OIDC ID Tokens provide for specifying the token issuing server ('iss') in the token itself, which I think is awesome
#
snarfed
whoa, now that's exotic
#
snarfed
(and would kinda conflict with link rel="token_endpoint")
#
bengo
I've been working on an OIDC RP server this week at work. https://lfoidc-rp-staging.herokuapp.com (won't be very interesting right now bc y'all don't have accounts on our staging server)
#
kylewm
bengo: you better be careful or people are going to start asking you to write wiki pages :P
#
bengo
That's fine. I'd prefer to publish code :) I should be able to open source hat rp server next week once I remove some clientKeys that should stay private.
#
kylewm
aaronpk: if you have a sec, can you help me with a php problem? I'm running quill locally to test my micropub endpoint, getting Message: Undefined property: Savant3::$authorizing
#
kylewm
Line: 77
#
kylewm
but looking at the code, I don't understand how that's possible
#
kylewm
bengo: also you probably already know that micropub *does* allow you to use your own authorization server and token endpoint
#
snarfed
kylewm: i guess you could support it in fever dream too, you'd just fetch the homepage to discover their token endpoint instead of assuming the one you told them to use
#
kylewm
hmm, I don't think the tokens.indieauth.com protocol is meant to be a spec in that way
#
kylewm
like i don't think there's any reason token endpoints have to reply to validation requests
#
snarfed
huh? isn't that part critical?
bengo joined the channel
#
bengo
It's all pontification until I get to implementing micro pub. Today I've been thinking about exactly how to change my 'post datastore' from github/filesystem to something that can be written to at runtime
#
kylewm
nah, like kylewm.com/token doesn't do it... it just produces a token and the micropub endpoint knows how to confirm it
#
bengo
Will probably use postgres
#
bengo
Also did a lot of reading today about https://docpad.org/. Anyone used it?
#
snarfed
kylewm: ah sure, for integrated mp/token servers
#
kylewm
Known (IndiePub) has its own token endpoint too
#
snarfed
but in this case, if they're using fever dream and want their own token endpoint, the mp and token parts wouldn't be integrated, so their token endpoint would need to behave more or less like tokens.indieauth.com
#
bengo
Any one ecosystem will definitely want to provide its own authorization server so it can be self-sufficient. But in an ideal federated world, they'd also accept federated tokens to avoid lock-in and proflieration of tokens
#
snarfed
kylewm: sorry, i should stop poking at this and let you capture it, punt on it for now, and just get the first pass up and running w/tokens.indieauth.com :P
#
snarfed
definitely glad you're building this!
#
GWG
I missed something. What is he building now?
#
kylewm
what is Fever Dream?
#
Loqi
Fever Dream is the codename of an in-development Micropub endpoint for hosted blogs like Tumblr, WordPress.com, and Blogger https://indiewebcamp.com/Fever_Dream
#
GWG
kylewm: Where do you come up with these names?
#
kylewm
lol I dunno, that one popped into my head and i wasn't able to think of anything else
#
kylewm
but I kinda like it... proxying indie posts to friendly blogging silos is little bit like a bad dream :)
#
GWG
I feel a need to compete
#
GWG
I should name my next project something creative
#
kylewm
GWG: we should start a list of unused project names on the wiki!
#
Loqi
yea!
#
kylewm
anyone around who knows Tumblr? is a "note" a text post with a title and no content or vice versa?
#
snarfed
i like the agriculture theme
#
snarfed
should have made time to rebrand a-u etc "granary" and used granary.io
#
snarfed
ah well
#
snarfed
(because silo)
#
GWG
Old Mahan had a Farm?
#
GWG
I guess I need to use Cotton Gin or Thresher or something
#
kylewm
there's something to be said for a name that actually indicates what the product does
#
kylewm
IndieAuth, good. Flynn, bad.
#
kylewm
but I find myself drawn to the latter
#
GWG
My latest is called Indie WebActions
#
GWG
I took snarfed's advice and ripped it out of Post Kinds into its own thing
#
GWG
Maybe I do need more creative names.
#
GWG
When I think names, I think Douglas Adams, I guess
#
GWG
Perfectly Normal Plugin?
#
GWG
Infinite Improbability Field Generator?
#
kylewm
Total Perspective Vortex
#
GWG
kylewm: That would be a great name for a feed reader
#
kylewm
haha, yes!
#
Loqi
rofl
#
kylewm
!tell acegiak in Tumblr is a note a text post with a title and no content or vice versa?
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
GWG
kylewm: How many posts do you make a day?
#
kylewm
maybe 1-10?
#
GWG
What is the distribution of notes vs bookmark/like/etc?
#
kylewm
these are just guesses... probably 60% likes 30% replies, 10% new notes
#
kylewm
bookmarks, checkins, reposts, etc. are more sporadic
lukebrooker joined the channel
#
snarfed
sounds like a job for http://indie-stats.com/
#
GWG
I'm just trying to figure out a goal to set. I want to post more
#
GWG
I'd settle for once a day
tantek joined the channel
#
GWG
That's why I'm trying to make it easier.
#
acegiak
kylewm: text posts without titles are more common on tumblr
#
Loqi
acegiak: kylewm left you a message 32 minutes ago: in Tumblr is a note a text post with a title and no content or vice versa? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-12/line/1428889185211
#
acegiak
they can have some html content in them but that's usually only used for minor formatting
#
acegiak
the title field is usually unused
#
GWG
acegiak: About that request I made to you...I may have to tell you to disregard it
#
acegiak
lol ok
#
GWG
acegiak: I was wobbling back and forth and ended up making it its own project instead of part of Post Kinds.
#
acegiak
yeah, sounds like a good way of doing it
#
GWG
I'm going to see if I can add in that code developed at IWC Brighton last year to add a website as an action handler and some other things
#
kylewm
acegiak++ thanks! also, do Link or Quote map to anything useful indieweb-wise?
#
Loqi
acegiak has 16 karma
#
acegiak
kylewm: links are kind of like sharing or reposting non-tumblr content? almost always they have a comment attached for context or discussion
#
acegiak
The quote format is nearly unused to the point where I often see posts where someone posts a quote as a text post
#
acegiak
the exception being blogs like http://outofcontextdnd.tumblr.com/
#
acegiak
kylewm: what are you working on?
#
kylewm
Micropub provider that proxies to WP.com, blogger, tumblr
#
kylewm
convincing people to put <link> tags in their pages is going to be a little tricky
#
snarfed
kylewm: why?
#
kylewm
it was hard to find is all
#
kylewm
I coudn't find it on the tumblr site, so i went to bridgy source code...
#
snarfed
heh yup i was about to suggest that :P
#
kylewm
and then i dunno, set up indieauth, now add these other random tags
#
kylewm
seems like a tough sell
#
GWG
Hello, ben_thatmustbeme
#
ben_thatmustbeme
what's up. . Doc?
j12t joined the channel
#
snarfed
kylewm: if they want micropub, they're already pretty heavily kool aided
#
snarfed
i wouldn't worry too much
#
GWG
ben_thatmustbeme: It's rabbit season?
j12t, nloadholtes, wolftune and bengo joined the channel
#
bengo
I made some improvements to npm://indieweb https://github.com/gobengo/indieweb/pull/1
dariusdunlap and tantek joined the channel
#
bengo
*HTTPS
#
kylewm
acegiak: do you have posse-to-tumblr code up somewhere?
#
acegiak
kylewm: I'll update the repo give us a sec
#
kylewm
acegiak: no rush, i'm probably not going to get to it until tomorrow night
#
acegiak
kylewm: pretty messy but this is my posse solution: https://github.com/acegiak/quickposse
#
kylewm
hehe, idiosyncratic tab usage
#
kylewm
(I'm trying to figure out the right way to post photos)
#
kylewm
acegiak: thank you for posting!
#
tantek
oh my goodness - there was a last minute backlash about the friendfeed shutdown: https://twitter.com/cenevizliler/status/587000984779513856
#
Loqi
tantek: rhiaro left you a message 8 hours, 27 minutes ago: I wrote about my evolving understanding of the implicit vs explicit types debate: http://rhiaro.co.uk/2015/04/post-and-activity-types http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-12/line/1428872454632
#
@cenevizliler
@btaylor are you happy now? happy with your networkcide?
(twitter.com/_/status/587000984779513856)
#
tantek
"networkcide"?!?
#
acegiak
"cide" prefix - killing but, like, extra bad
j12t joined the channel
#
tantek
and a Turkish resurrection of FriendFeed - apparently there was a big Turkish community on there: http://yeni-friendfeed.com/
#
tantek
"yeni" means "new" in Turkish
e-lima joined the channel
#
tantek
!tell rhiaro the examples of "that I probably don't need to create a post for." are all things that actually make sense as explicit posts with their own permalinks that you can update or delete!
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell her that when I see her next
#
tantek
!tell rhiaro " this presents another point for confusion: when do I like a post, and when do I like the fact you published it" <-- precisely why separate Activities vs. Objects is *bad* (confusing) for the user model, thus bad overall and to be avoided.
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell her that when I see her next
#
acegiak
tantek: I really agree with the posting ui section though
#
tantek
acegiak: yes - I agree with that both conceptually, and in observation of modern posting /create UX
#
tantek.com
edited /FriendFeed (+395) "note screenshot of final day, and replacements"
(view diff)
#
bengo
The way I see it is that the 'types' are useful for 'default' object creation wizards, even each objectType wizard is really just going to serialize everything to the same wire format (e.g. HTML+mf2) to send to an API (e.g. micro pub). This still affords for not being boxed into the 'tyranny of content-types' if you are willing to bring your own object creator (e.g. just writing HTML, or using something like Quill).
#
bengo
It's more of a helpful set of guard rails for users that are only willing to worry about graphical object/post creators
#
bengo
Similarly, even if the total set of 'posts' a service can store is not strictly 'typed', the objectTypes are useful on the other end too when it comes to rendering them. e.g. I can make better dedicated views for 'event', 'photo', 'group' than one big generic one. But similarly, it should still be a best practice for all reusable views to have a 'fallback' that ensures that everyone's posts can be shown off, at least by
#
bengo
.displayName or title.
#
bengo
I think the JSON-LD/AS '@type's and 'implicit typing' can live well together.
eschnou joined the channel
#
bengo
wrt views, about 9 months ago I tried making a sort of 'general purpose' activity serializer that worked this way. It new how to serialize certain objectTypes, but would always fall back to something generic like just looking for a .displayName https://github.com/gobengo/activity-element/blob/master/src/index.js#L24
#
bengo
*serializer to HTMLElements
loic_m, cweiske, bengo, csarven, Jihaisse, friedcell, nloadholtes, fkooman, eschnou, KevinMarks__ and LauraJ joined the channel
#
@bengo
This is the most ES2015 thing I’ve written this year (Symbols, Classes, async/await, destructuring, tempates) https://github.com/gobengo/indieweb/blob/ecma/lib/indieweb-home.js
(twitter.com/_/status/587523664259768320)
#
bengo
Uh oh. Is that on a global search for the 'indieweb' substring?
loic_m joined the channel
#
cweiske
yes. loqi has several twitter search strings it posts here
#
bengo
Cool that it matches on URL substrings too
pfefferle joined the channel
#
pfefferle
good morning
#
voxpelli
good morning!
bengo, Sebastien-L, petermolnar and j12t joined the channel
#
petermolnar
good morning, indieweb
#
petermolnar
I've came across an article where the part on Medium is pretty interesting; any ideas how indieweb could offer an alternative for he says? https://medium.com/backchannel/a-teenagers-view-on-social-media-1df945c09ac6#3166
#
petermolnar
s/for/for\ what/
#
Loqi
petermolnar meant to say: I've came across an article where the part on Medium is pretty interesting; any ideas how indieweb could offer an alternative for\ what he says? https://medium.com/backchannel/a-teenagers-view-on-social-media-1df945c09ac6#3166
friedcell, sammachin, LauraJ, KevinMarks, modem and pfefferle joined the channel
#
tommorris
so, I've been working on this - https://gist.github.com/tommorris/2983b0f7dd825ddf93c7 - way to RESTfully provide parsed microformats/RDFa in Django.
#
tommorris
why bother with separate "views" for microformats, RDFa etc. when you can just parse the data out of the HTML? ;-)
#
cweiske
because parsing is heavy
#
tommorris
then plonk the result into a cache.
#
cweiske
putting it all into html moves the work to the clients, which are by definition more than 1
#
cweiske
but that discussion is moot since the consensus in this channel is that publishing should be easy, not consuming
#
tommorris
ah, but this isn't moving the work to the client
#
cweiske
oh, it does. compare consuming an atom feed vs. consuming a h-entry feed
#
cweiske
consuming atom is way easier, because you don't have to parse the microformats from html with all their fallbacks and alternate markups
LauraJ and thehighfiveghost joined the channel
#
tommorris
cweiske: but it wouldn't be tremendously difficult to transform the result of an h-entry feed into Atom XML and serving that up as middleware. :)
#
tommorris
no more code needed, just transformations of HTML
j12t joined the channel
#
wwelves.org perpetual-tripper
edited /Micropub (-154) "/* HTTP Header */ replaced rel="micropub" issue details with link to github issue"
(view diff)
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
e-lima and thehighfiveghost joined the channel
#
pfefferle
!tell aaronpk oops, I forgot the link to your site! that should explain it!
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
j12t, friedcell1, Sebastien-L, GWG, frzn, modem, LauraJ, friedcell, pfefferle and fkooman joined the channel
#
GWG
Good morning, all.
scor and nloadholtes joined the channel
#
pfefferle
good morning GWG
#
GWG
pfefferle: I see there have been some updates going on.
#
pfefferle
GWG yes, had some free minutes ;(
#
GWG
pfefferle: I've started a new project to try to make it easier to make quick posts.
#
pfefferle
GWG I saw it
#
pfefferle
GWG still not sure why you need that and/or prefer that instead of using the new Press-This
#
GWG
The new Press This won't set taxonomies.
#
GWG
Also, too many choices.
#
GWG
I just want the thing to go in
#
GWG
pfefferle: Basically, I want to use the sharing intent in Android to create posts on my site with one-click if I can.
#
pfefferle
GWG and what about authentication?
#
GWG
pfefferle: I use WordPress authentication
#
GWG
So, your browser just needs to be logged into WordPress
LauraJ, thehighfiveghost, tantek, fkooman_, fkooman and frzn joined the channel
#
GWG
pfefferle: In the end, if having a tool that works the way I need it to for my workflow makes me post more...isn't that a good thing?
#
GWG
So far, more of my work has been creating a foundation. Post Kinds allowed the types I wanted to Post. Now I want to post them.
pfefferle joined the channel
#
GWG
Besides, Press This doesn't post notes.
#
pfefferle
GWG and it is not extensible?
eschnou joined the channel
#
GWG
Not to that extent.
#
GWG
It can't achieve my goal of tying the pieces I built together. I proposed more extensibility but I am not their use case
e-lima, j12t, friedcell, tmro and sammachin1 joined the channel
#
pfefferle
GWG I am not sure, but I think it is also possible with the Press-This bookmarklet… I added some extra query strings for the oexchange plugin for example https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-oexchange
#
pfefferle
GWG and why are you parsing the media urls by hand instead of using the build in OEmbed feature?
#
GWG
You mean in the Post Kinds plugin?
#
pfefferle
no, the indie webaction plugin
#
GWG
I'm not. I borrowed that code from the Oress This code. I am not using it. I might be using part of it.
#
GWG
I intend to cut it down to just the basics.
catsup joined the channel
#
pfefferle
GWG ok…
a_ joined the channel
#
GWG
I intend to get to an initial stable version within a week.
#
GWG
Pfefferle, the code I included if you look was named fallback
#
pfefferle
GWG I had only a quick look ;)
#
pfefferle
GWG sorry!
catsup, a_, chalettu, Acidnerd, pfefferle, frzn_ and fourtonfish joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme
rhiaro: drafting a response to your post
catsup, yakker, thehighfiveghost and a_ joined the channel
#
@suryhern
#KCA #VoteJKT48ID ONeillChristian: BACK ROADS KINGDOM "is THE HOBBIT meets JUSTIFIED!" #Fantasy #IARTG #Indieauth… https://twitter.com/ONeillChristian/status/587626790300033024/photo/1
(twitter.com/_/status/587627497417740288)
a_, eschnou, snarfed, catsup, chalettu, KevinMarks__, torrorist, j12t and KevinMarks joined the channel
snarfed joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme
and just thought of a great way to confuse things. RSVPs can contain a comment, as could likes, what type are those?
#
@jgarber
You’ll notice I published that article on my own site first and re-published it elsewhere: @twitter, @facebook, and now @Medium. #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/587637877636526080)
catsup and a_ joined the channel
wolftune, catsup, a_ and frzn joined the channel
#
aaronpk
good morning!
#
Loqi
aaronpk: pfefferle left you a message 5 hours, 37 minutes ago: oops, I forgot the link to your site! that should explain it! http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-13/line/1428919537160
#
ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk: had an interesting idea, what about MicroPub endpoint not only telling what mp-syndicate-to values, but just ANY values. basically query for "what additional options should i present?"
#
aaronpk
what kind of additional options?
#
ben_thatmustbeme
post-type would work for those that want it, encoding type, for those that want to draft as markdown or html instead of plain text
#
ben_thatmustbeme
hell ANY extension
#
ben_thatmustbeme
p3k-food-type if thats what your site supports
#
aaronpk
i know of a great way for a server to present a list of options to a user
#
aaronpk
it's extensible and supports many different types of values
#
ben_thatmustbeme
feels sarcasm coming
#
aaronpk
html forms ;)
catsup joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme
hmm, that would make things much simpler, its already rendered HTML, not sure security wise its a good idea
#
aaronpk
and if you marked up the form with microformats, other clients could parse it and create their own forms from it
#
ben_thatmustbeme
yeah, that would be the better option
#
ben_thatmustbeme
worry of sloppy coder just inserting the html directly
a_ joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme
rather than parsing it
#
aaronpk
but i'm not sure this train of thought is useful
pfefferle joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme
taking it to the extreme you just include EVERY field you support, and there is really no need for the endpoint, i know
#
aaronpk
because so far all the micropub clients i've made are specialized interfaces, and couldn't really be generalized
#
aaronpk
what would be useful is for a micropub client like teacup being able to tell if a micropub endpoint is going to be able to accept the request it sends
#
aaronpk
I wouldn't want Teacup to adapt its interface based on that, but might be nice to be able to tell the user "it looks like your micropub endpoint won't accept this, here are some instructions for how to fix this"
#
ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk, if the mp endpoint listed ALL options it accepts, teacup would know that
#
ben_thatmustbeme
... oh sorry your site doesn't support the minimum fields X, Y, and Z
#
ben_thatmustbeme
doesn't mean you HAVE to show them all
#
ben_thatmustbeme
but for those full fledged endpoints, it would be nice
catsup, a_ and gRegor` joined the channel
tilgovi joined the channel
#
aaronpk
cause right now if someone logs in to teacup and tries to post with it, it'll just make an empty post or the endpoint will reject the post because there's no content
a_ joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme
you don't include content?
#
ben_thatmustbeme
as a fallback?
#
aaronpk
i don't think i do right now but i want to
tantek joined the channel
#
aaronpk
but it would still be nice for teacup to be able to warn people
#
ben_thatmustbeme
i still go back to exposing ALL your supported fields would meant that teacup would know a person doesn't support p3k-food
#
ben_thatmustbeme
or whatever field you use
#
aaronpk
yeah that's fine
#
aaronpk
of course that's a slippery slope too
#
@rhiaro
Three very first websites up after day 1 of @Prewired #MakerWeek. So tomorrow I'll have the kids set up #indieauth?
(twitter.com/_/status/587648179732148224)
catsup and loic_m joined the channel
#
Loqi
rhiaro has 55 karma
#
ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk, in what way?
torrorist joined the channel
#
aaronpk
well, some fields are dependent on others, so a request may not be valid with any arbitrary field in that list
#
aaronpk
s/any/any single
#
Loqi
aaronpk meant to say: well, some fields are dependent on others, so a request may not be valid with any single arbitrary field in that list
#
aaronpk
like right now my endpoint can't do anything with a request that contains *only* location, but location is a valid additional field for any other post
#
ben_thatmustbeme
true, which is why an mp-client cannot just show everything
#
tantek
presumably *only* location would be a checkin :)
#
aaronpk
tantek: presumably, but my endpoint doesn't support it right now!
#
tantek
then it could say that!
#
aaronpk
could say what?
#
ben_thatmustbeme
who's on first?
#
tantek
"checkins not supported yet."
#
aaronpk
"checkin" sounds like a post type ;)
#
ben_thatmustbeme
tantek, he's saying its not that checkins aren't supported yet, its that "JUST" location field isn't supported
#
aaronpk
what it actually needs to say is the "location" property by itself isn't supported yet
#
ben_thatmustbeme
but maybe location + content will work
#
aaronpk
so this is why i want to make sure to start with the description of the *user-visible* feature this query functionality would provide
#
ben_thatmustbeme
my original idea was to show every field supported so that you could display additional fields like post-type or content-encoding (for those that like markdown or html based drafting)
catsup joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme
which i think gets rid of the need to argue over post-type or not
#
ben_thatmustbeme
as its personal UI choice at that point
#
aaronpk
also i'm worried about putting too much burden on clients, by making them need to support markdown and html and plaintext editors
#
ben_thatmustbeme
they don't need to
#
tantek
agreed, they don't need to
#
tantek
this is where rel=source tells the client what type the source is in
#
tantek
and the client can say whether it supports it or not
#
tantek
in the UI to the user
#
tantek
rel=source type=text/markdown
#
ben_thatmustbeme
it just says that those options are there. I was thinking more of just a plain text field, but the person's server can then say , oh okay, this raw text can be processed as markdown
#
tantek
rel=source type=text/html
#
tantek
rel=source type=text/plain
#
tantek
server links to its source for a post, client decides if it supports the mimetype or not and alerts the user accordingly.
#
tantek
some clients may support only editing one type, others a few, perhaps some may decide to support all
#
tantek
let the clients evolve accordingly
#
tantek
editing mimetypes vs. different properties - lots of different things for clients to strive for / specialize in
#
gRegor`
Hi ben_thatmustbeme. Morning, indieweb.
#
aaronpk
tantek: unrelated, can you give me a better reason to not use a URI for rel=micropub? https://github.com/aaronpk/Micropub/issues/1
#
tantek
simple reason - don't need it
#
aaronpk
right now my thinking is that since the HTML5 rel registry is on the microformats wiki, the HTTP link header should just follow it
#
aaronpk
even though the HTTP spec says rel values need to be URIs or registered with IANA
#
tantek
just keep repeating after me, the IETF registry is obsolete. It should just normatively reference the microformats existing-rel-values registry, as the HTMLWG decided.
#
aaronpk
but this is HTTP-land, not HTML
#
tantek
any spec that references the IETF registry has a bug and assume it means to reference the microformats existing-rel-values registry
#
tantek
if there are old rel values in the IETF registry which actually have real world use, add them to the microformats existing-rel-values registry
#
aaronpk
what about the IANA one?
#
tantek
IANA IETF - same difference
#
tantek
both obsolete, same reasons
#
gRegor`
What is IANA?
#
gRegor`
What is IETF?
#
tantek
as long as consuming code keeps shifting to using the microformats existing-rel-values registry, the others are just legacy
#
gRegor`
What is HTML5?
#
Loqi
HTML (HyperText Markup Language) is the markup language used to create web pages https://indiewebcamp.com/HTML5
#
tantek
and arguments from non-implementers (i.e. those that don't actually write code that consumes rel values) about which they prefer are irrelevant
#
tantek
and ignorable
#
gRegor`
What is rel-value registry?
#
gRegor`
is done
#
tantek
IANA is a source of legacy registries, some of which have been obsoleted, like the rel registry, by microformats.org: http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values
#
loqi.me
created /IANA (+193) "prompted by gRegor` https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-13/line/1428941954068 and dfn added by tantek"
(view diff)
#
tantek
IETF is an abbreviation for the Internet Engineering Task Force, a group that produces specs called RFCs, and holds meetings where people audibly "hum" to achieve consensus.
#
loqi.me
created /IETF (+200) "prompted by gRegor` https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-13/line/1428941959042 and dfn added by tantek"
(view diff)
#
aaronpk
humming?
#
tantek
rel-value registry is http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values per both the WHATWG HTML specification, and the W3C HTML5 specification.
#
loqi.me
created /rel-value_registry (+170) "prompted by gRegor` https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-13/line/1428942031971 and dfn added by tantek"
(view diff)
#
tantek
is done
#
ben_thatmustbeme
they hum?? that doesn't seem really useful
#
ben_thatmustbeme
louder hummers get more control?
#
tantek
"The more you know..."
#
tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: yes, it does seem odd, though I'm reporting secondhand, never having attended an IETF meeting myself.
#
tantek
on humming?
j12t joined the channel
#
tantek
those with running code should be given megaphones so they can hum louder
#
ben_thatmustbeme
i was thinking of bringing a boombox with one track "HUM"
#
ben_thatmustbeme
i guess its the idea of being difficult to tell who votes which way but does provide general idea of who votes which way
#
ben_thatmustbeme
public semi-secret vote
scor, behind_you, torrorist, Erkan_Yilmaz and davidmead joined the channel
#
aaronparecki.com
edited /Micropub (-197) "please keep issues on github or [[Micropub-brainstorming]]"
(view diff)
snarfed joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme
getting back to earlier discussion, aaronpk, its possible that a field may only work depending on VALUE of a field. b3n-drink may depend on b3n-food-type=drink. I don't think you can really test for everything without actually posting the content
#
ben_thatmustbeme
s/posting the content/sending the data/
#
Loqi
ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: getting back to earlier discussion, aaronpk, its possible that a field may only work depending on VALUE of a field. b3n-drink may depend on b3n-food-type=drink. I don't think you can really test for everything without actually sending the data
torrorist joined the channel
#
aaronpk
this is why i was worried about following this train of thought too far without actually looking back at the original goal of it
#
aaronpk
for example
#
ben_thatmustbeme
brings me back to just expose all fields that the server knows of, its up to the client to just say, oh, no b3n-food support, sorry it won't work
#
aaronpk
I want someone who logs in to Teacup to see a message saying "this post could look better on your site if you accept p3k-food properties"
#
aaronpk
so, start from the user-visible effect you want, rather than the plumbing of how to make it happen
#
ben_thatmustbeme
still exactly the same result in this case
#
ben_thatmustbeme
at least in my mind
#
aaronpk
what is your goal with it
#
ben_thatmustbeme
the client wants to know. "does site X support field Y"
fkooman joined the channel
#
aaronpk
robots don't matter
#
aaronpk
what do you want the user to see
#
ben_thatmustbeme
in your case or mine?
#
tantek
as soon as more than one person here starts posting an (implied) type of post, we should probably discuss and standardize the property(ies) involved
#
aaronpk
ben_thatmustbeme: yours
#
tantek
e.g. what is food
#
ben_thatmustbeme
i would like user to be presented with an option to select post-type if that is what they prefer
#
Loqi
Food is a post type that represents eating or drinking particular food or drink https://indiewebcamp.com/food
#
tantek
and does that have a "How to mark up" section
#
aaronpk
tantek: sounds like we need a micropub properties registry :)
#
ben_thatmustbeme
also, i would like users to be presented with an option to select content format, so if they prefer to type raw HTML in to the plain text form (so they can actually link thigs) they can still use my mp-client
#
ben_thatmustbeme
one possible solution, figure out a mp-content-format and generate some set of values for it (or create another request like syndicate-to)
#
ben_thatmustbeme
repeat for mp-post-type
#
ben_thatmustbeme
or merge all 3 (mp-post-type, mp-content-format, mp-syndicate-to) in to one request, asking for supported values
#
ben_thatmustbeme
add in p3k-food-type. logical extension, just include them all
#
tantek
aaronpk - except they're not micropub-specific
#
tantek
that's the point
#
ben_thatmustbeme
all is one possible solution, there are certainly others
friedcell joined the channel
#
tantek
just as ben_thatmustbeme ran into trouble with AREA tag encoding into micropub
#
tantek
micropub is secondary to getting simple markup figured out for how you want to publish / present your post on your permalink in the first place
#
aaronpk
tantek: yeah i guess most are the properties of an h-entry, and we have yet to encounter a case where that isn't true
#
ben_thatmustbeme
holds off on lunch because of good conversation
#
tantek
micropub is a means to that ends
#
tantek
not vice versa
#
tantek
it must always start with the UX of what does the post look like, according to what does the publishers want the post to look like
#
tantek
then we figure out the right markup for that
#
tantek
then we figure out the right microformats to layer into that
#
tantek
and only then do we figure out how to set those properties via micropub
#
tantek
and if at any step we run into a problem (e.g. AREA tag with /area-tagging ) then we back-up and see if we can do it differently.
#
tantek
starting with micropub is tail-wagging design, AKA plumbing-centric / architecture-centric
#
tantek
let's leave the plumbing-centric design to folks advocating for "platforms" first (e.g. LDP), and selfdogfooding later
#
ben_thatmustbeme
btw tantek, did you see amy's post about post-type
#
tantek
I did and left her a bunch of !tells yesterday in IRC
#
tantek
saw your follow-up too
#
ben_thatmustbeme
thats where i hit on this idea of taking out explicit post-type from my clients in favor of a less obtrusive field
#
ben_thatmustbeme
would work exactly the same on my end, but improve UI of the mp-client
torrorist and bengo joined the channel
#
bret
tantek: do you auto link your articles?
#
bret
or just notes
#
tantek
just notes
#
tantek
or rather it goes back to authoring "UI"
#
tantek
my articles I author in HTML
#
tantek
my notes I author in plain text
#
tantek
(except for escaping & etc. which I do in both because - limitation of my storage setup ;) )
#
bret
doh.. cool
#
bret
its fun to change syntax hi lighting on cassis.js... two different views on the same file
#
bret
highlighting*
torrorist, yakker, benwerd, eschnou and bengo joined the channel
#
bengo
@ben_thatmustbeme I like your idea of micro pub endpoints being able to advertise extended capabilities. It reminds me of Hydra, an effort to standardize how a web api can advertise it's operations and what types of objects it expects/returns http://www.hydra-cg.com/spec/latest/core/#using-hydra
LauraJ, aranasaurus and tantek joined the channel
#
@elfpavlik
"Implicit vs explicit object types" by @rhiaro http://rhiaro.co.uk/2015/04/post-and-activity-types see: [#hEntry #Activity] cc: [#IndieWeb #ActivityStreams #LinkedData]
(twitter.com/_/status/587684624760987651)
#
kylewm
bengo: fyi you can leave off the @ when mentioning people, i think it prevents them from being highlighted in some clients
#
tantek
cannot tell if bengo is serious or trolling re: "effort to standardize how a web api can advertise it's operations and what types of objects it expects/returns"
#
bengo
Yeah oops. I got scolded for that last week and keep forgetting.
#
kylewm
oh sorry didn't realize :)
#
bengo
tantek__ I'm not trolling. It is indeed a real effort...
#
bengo
I'm intentionally omitting whether I think it will work :)
#
tantek
what is an effort to standardize how a web API can advertise it's operations and what types of objects it expects/returns?
#
bengo
What is Hydra?
#
tantek
er, I mean
#
bengo
Hydra is a W3C Community Group that aims to standardize how a web API can advertise it's operations and what types of objects it expects/returns
#
loqi.me
created /Hydra (+171) "prompted by bengo https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-13/line/1428950067845 and dfn added by bengo"
(view diff)
#
tantek
what is effort to standardize how a web API can advertise its operations and what types of objects it expects/returns?
#
tantek
hmm - perhaps Loqi has an upperbound on page names
#
Loqi
is done
Erkan_Yilmaz joined the channel
#
tantek
alright I'll add it as a see also
#
bengo.is
edited /Hydra (+110)
(view diff)
#
KevinMarks_
!tell cweiske you think parsing Atom is easy? Hahaha
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
tantek.com
edited /Hydra (+36) "rm apostrophe, see also WS-Deathstar"
(view diff)
benwerd joined the channel
#
@SocialWebWG
RT @elfpavlik: "Implicit vs explicit object types" by @rhiaro http://rhiaro.co.uk/2015/04/post-and-activity-types see: [#hEntry #Activity] cc: [#IndieWeb #ActivityStrea…
(twitter.com/_/status/587685860407054336)
#
tantek
bengo are you familiar with WSDL?
#
snarfed
tantek: ben_thatmustbeme: or COM/CORBA, or content/cipher negotiation, or… :P
#
tantek.com
edited /Hydra (+415) "Examples - no real world, Criticism WSDL again"
(view diff)
#
tantek
snarfed - how 1990s of you :P
#
snarfed
history++
#
tantek
wasted too many years on SOM/DSOM/CORBA/DCOM :(
#
Loqi
history has 2 karma
#
tantek
history++
#
Loqi
history has 3 karma
#
KevinMarks_
post types is amking me think fo the hierarchy vs prototype theory issue again
#
tantek
KevinMarks: what post types do you post on your own site?
#
KevinMarks_
noterlive transcripts mainly, and essay-like posts
#
KevinMarks_
notes I tend to tweet
#
KevinMarks_
known.kevinmarks.com has some notes, checkins, photos, events and RSVPs
LauraJ, bengo and cweiske joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme
ahh, excellent, fixed that issue. now giving the wrong post type url to a post doesn't break things
#
ben_thatmustbeme
or rather try to render it wrong, or provide other feedback
#
KevinMarks_
mind you I do have kevinmarks.com/tweets on my site, but I need to redownload them
#
ben_thatmustbeme
any future change to a post type will not matter at all now, redirects will take care of themselves
#
kylewm
ben_thatmustbeme: do you not set <title> on purpose?
#
ben_thatmustbeme
KevinMarks... post type by subdomain :)
#
ben_thatmustbeme
kylewm: correct
#
kylewm
ben_thatmustbeme: hehe, allow me to rephrase. why don't you set <title>?
#
ben_thatmustbeme
kylewm: didn't feel it needed one. Don't usually set a title unless it is not in reply to something.
#
ben_thatmustbeme
i'll also set a title on photos sometimes
#
ben_thatmustbeme
but not always
#
tantek
on a photo it's called a caption ;)
#
ben_thatmustbeme
no, there is a caption too
#
ben_thatmustbeme
just to confuzzle things
#
kylewm
ben_thatmustbeme: it looks kind of dorky in a browser tab to have your face and the title "https:...13/2/"
#
ben_thatmustbeme
but its another problem i have with the 'if there is a title then its an article'
#
kylewm
even just the same title as your home page would be better, imho
bengo joined the channel
#
tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: wat - why do you have both a "title" and a "caption" on your photos?
#
tantek
E.g. IG just has caption (which happens to be "first comment if it is by the author of the photo")
benwerd joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme
kylewm: fair point. fixed
#
ben_thatmustbeme
tantek, i'm not sure i ever have, but i can have a title on a post of type photo with content in it
#
ben_thatmustbeme
basically becomes short title for the photo, and description of the photo
#
tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: it's not a matter of "can have" but rather, have you ever wanted (in a post you actually publish)
#
tantek
formats/protocols often have numerous edge case / weird possibilities of combinations - just because those combinations exist doesn't mean they are useful or desired. they can just be side-effects of other desired features (and combinations thereof)
snarfed1 joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme
huh, looks like i never actually set a title for a photo... thought i had
#
tantek
lol JSDL
#
ben_thatmustbeme
i could certainly see me wanting to though
snarfed2 joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme
as a short description vs commentary on a photo
#
tantek
bengo - looks like arbitrary "service description" is a good honeypot for architecture astronauts
#
tantek
we need Loqi to make such Amazon-like recommendations
#
tantek
Since you like architecture astronomy, you might also like extensible service discovery.
benwerd joined the channel
#
bengo
What is architecture astronomy?
#
Loqi
architecture astronomy is the practice of analyzing problems, seeing patterns, and then generalizing to higher and higher level abstractions on top of those patterns to the point where the abstractions become so general, so vague, so detached from the original problems being analyzed, that they don't mean anything at all https://indiewebcamp.com/architecture_astronomy
#
bengo
Why is microformats not architecture astronomy but AS2 is?
#
bengo
errrr 'JSDL'?
#
bengo
What's a fair metric to use to divide the space?
#
Loqi
cweiske: KevinMarks_ left you a message 32 minutes ago: you think parsing Atom is easy? Hahaha http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-13/line/1428950130697
#
Loqi
cweiske has 25 karma
#
tantek
bengo - because microformats are all based on *first* gathering examples of real world problems, then devising a solution that minimally solves them.
#
tantek
AS2 tried to do that, but has very poor documentation on a defunct wiki, and unsearchable mailing lists
#
tantek
all the *SDLs failed to do that
#
tantek
at all
#
bengo
I see.
#
tantek
bengo the fact that you would ask "Why is microformats not architecture astronomy" shows you either do not understand how microformats are created (start with microformats.org/wiki/process ) or did not read the architecture astronomy description / blog post, or both.
#
tantek
they are about as opposite as possible
friedcell joined the channel
#
tantek
btw this is also why we will be trimming AS2 drastically
#
tantek
or replacing it with a simpler proposal
#
KevinMarks
I heard you liked architecture astronomy so I put some hierarchy in your hierarchies
#
tantek.com
edited /Hydra (+347) "disambiguate mythological hydra, how it relates to hydracg"
(view diff)
#
cweiske
KevinMarks, parsing atom is way easier than parsing microformats
#
bengo
Hmm. I guess in my area of industry I've just seen a lot more adoption of JSON+AS than microformats+arbitrary-HTML, because our customers don't actually want the latter.
#
bengo
*seem to want
#
cweiske
and I talk about atom, not about rss 0.9, 0.91, 1.0 and 2.0
#
tantek.com
edited /Hydra (+3) "*are"
(view diff)
#
bengo
They ask "do you have a JSON API?"
#
tantek
bengo - and we give them canonical JSON
Erkan_Yilmaz joined the channel
#
tantek
bengo - you're welcome to document real world examples of JSON+AS on the /ActivityStreams page
#
tantek
since you've seen "a lot more adoption"
#
tantek
presumably you can cite URLs to streams / permalinks
#
bengo
To be clear, I don't mean it has 'a lot more adoption' in general. That would be silly and probably wrong.
#
tantek
lacking those, it doesn't count as adoption, it counts as ephemeral API/protocol froth
#
tantek
like any other snowflake
#
tantek
gRegornobacktick++
#
Loqi
gRegornobacktick has 48 karma
#
tantek
what is a snowflake?
#
Loqi
snowflake in the context of the indieweb, is typically used to refer in a derogatory way to "snowflake APIs", APIs that are (often silo) website or service provider-specific (unique like snowflakes) rather than an open standard https://indiewebcamp.com/snowflake
snarfed joined the channel
#
KevinMarks
Parsing valid atom is easy,yes. Guess what that buys you
#
Loqi
ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: 
#
bengo
Interesting. I guess I feel a little blocked over the last few years on making anything other than a Snowflake API for our 'silo-as-a-service' product. Thus I have a lot of hope for the Social API, and don't know what open standard (of HTTP protocol) I could use that is already a sufficiently 'open standard'
#
bengo
Other than probably Atom
#
aaronpk
I would actually argue the opposite, since I haven't seen a generic atom parser that returns a native data structure, whereas microformats parsers return native data structures so consumers don't even have to think about the parsing step
#
aaronpk
seems like every project that wants to parse atom has to do the actual xml parsing itself
#
bengo
Sorry I shouldn't have said Atom
#
bengo
I guess the key here is that micro formats are great for object serialization
#
bengo
I'm not arguing that at all
#
KevinMarks
Universal Feed Parser returns native data structures
#
bengo
But I don't think there is a standard protocol for the HTTP requests to discover/query those objects
#
aaronpk
yeah but my point is every parser that works on the vocab level has to also parse the serialization
#
bengo
Given a big database of posts and stuff
#
KevinMarks
It's an Atom (et al) to JSON transducer
#
bengo
How can I write a client for it to only get bengo's
#
bengo
tagged with 'indieweb', sorted by most recent?
#
bengo
I don't care if I then get it as JSON or mf2
KevinMarks__ joined the channel
#
bengo
But the application-level protocol is missing from the community (as far as my limited research can find)
#
aaronpk
bengo: probably because there hasn't been a need demonstrated for it yet
#
aaronpk
for example I can already subscribe to your notes that are tagged "indieweb" in monocle, because monocle is doing the filtering for me
#
snarfed
aaronpk++
#
Loqi
aaronpk has 760 karma
#
bengo
I'm sick of hearing that, lol. The product I've been building for almost 5 years is a demonstrated need, as is the millions of dollars our customers pay us for it.
#
bengo
I'd love to not be 'a snowflake'
#
bengo
But you can't attack on both sides
#
bengo
Label things derogatorily as snowflake APIs while also saying the use case isn't real enough to standardize
#
aaronpk
note that I did say "yet"
#
bengo
It's cool. I think it's just not really an indieweb problem per se
#
snarfed
bengo: if you really want a open/standard API for that kind of functionality, the opensocial api is one
#
GWG
Aaronpk, reading back in the log. If more people adopt food logging, should it stay as p3k?
#
bengo
snarfed OpenSocial IS #social now
#
bengo
they merged
#
bengo
(and AS2)
#
KevinMarks__
Well, activity Streams did have implementations in opensocial, but most of them died
#
aaronpk
GWG: no, the p3k prefix is there because it's currently experimental
#
snarfed
bengo: ok. so is there a new API standard that subsumes the old opensocial one!
#
aaronpk
bengo: it's quite possible that it may not be an indieweb problem, or it may be an indieweb problem that has yet to be surfaced
#
aaronpk
just like we didn't start writing the micropub spec in 2010 at the first indiewebcamp
#
KevinMarks__
And gnip and echo
#
bengo
snarfed I think that's what the 'Social API' project of w3c/social is all about
#
bengo
KevinMarks__ exactly! I work with both of them
#
snarfed
bengo: got it
#
snarfed
sounds like you're ahead of me then. so…you're advocating for more support for that project? or...?
#
bengo
snarfed I guess I just like chatting about it here because the actual w3c/social is so crickets
#
aaronpk
but things like webmention, indieauth, micropub, fragmention, etc, all arose incrementally as the need became apparent
#
snarfed
bengo: then you're probably not surprised that we agree in spirit but not always on the details :P
#
bengo
snarfed I suppose that's what I'm advocating for. But really I'm just thinking out loud. As I progress on bengo.is and https://github.com/gobengo/indieweb, I'm hoping to try to merge some of the two project-sets
#
snarfed
hoo boy, that way lie dragons
#
aaronpk
bengo: so i'm not saying it's out of scope, just that it hasn't come up yet
#
bengo
snarfed That's fine. I guess it's really a matter of whether the consensus here is that it's useless to work with w3c/social. If you don't think it's useless, I recommend avoiding the derogatory terms and name calling.
#
bengo
I'm trying to be 'on the same team'
#
snarfed
bengo++ for trying to cooperate
#
Loqi
bengo has 8 karma
#
bengo
thx <3 :)
#
bengo
snarfed++ for comopassion
#
Loqi
snarfed has 100 karma
#
snarfed
i feel the same way, hence my work on https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial and friends
#
ben_thatmustbeme
bengo, what product do you work on?
#
ben_thatmustbeme
tries to catch up
#
bengo
e.g. this is a snowflake, but I wish it weren't http://docs.livefyre.com/developers/api-reference/
#
snarfed
livefyre! oh wow ok. you all do solid work
#
bengo
This talks about where we've implemented AS2-ish (in an alpha project... before they made JSON-LD an official part of it, ugh) This talks about)
#
snarfed
a la gnip (RIP), datasift, etc
#
bengo
data sift got cut off from Twitter last friday!
#
ben_thatmustbeme
i should say, what functionality is it that you want? content creation/management or interoperation between products
#
snarfed
tough space
#
ben_thatmustbeme
the so called social api or federation api?
#
bengo
That's a good question. Both?
#
bengo
The main use case that drove me here is making social views (widgets, apps, whatever) http://answers.livefyre.com/product/app-gallery/
#
bengo
If our API weren't a snowflake, then we could make them more generic that Livefyre-specific
#
bengo
or more importantly, we could reasonably evangelize that all the JS-hackers and webdevs could be making great content visualizations like http://s.codepen.io/gobengo/debug/dFwDL?
#
bengo
But I wouldn't have to be locking them in to our snowflake. They could implement against SocialAPI
#
bengo
+ a standard serialization like AS2 or HTML+mf2 or HTML+RDFa
#
bengo
e.g. I will probably start working with some friends on this to try to make a standard 'chat widget' sort of thing for this AS API http://docs.activitystreamschat.apiary.io/#reference
tantek joined the channel
#
bengo
Where the idea is there are some good modules in there to make it work with any AS API
#
kylewm
bengo: I'm confused about your question whether "it's useless to work with w3c/social". you know that many here are involved in that WG right?
#
bengo
Yeah. But also there seems to be a sentiment that 'they're all doing it that wrong'
#
bengo
or that things like JSON-LD or RDF are excuses for navel-gazing, and have no place in a joint standard
#
snarfed
bengo: honestly, i suspect the main problem is the same one that (arguably) killed opensocial
#
snarfed
we can work together to design all the standard data models and apis we want...
#
snarfed
…but if the major silos don't support them, or at least allow others to bridge support for them, they won't matter
#
ben_thatmustbeme
snarfed, thats definitely a concern, but if you build up from smaller communities i believe thats possible
#
snarfed
ie your social views would be very compelling if they supported twitter, fb, etc; less so if they only support identica and gnu social :P
#
ben_thatmustbeme
so, bengo, your issue with MF2 is that is lacks API to be able to query specific sets like "all posts of type X from site Y, sorted by Z" ?
#
ben_thatmustbeme
at least for the moment anyway
#
ben_thatmustbeme
is at work and so has not fully comprehended everything going by so quickly
#
bengo
ben_thatmustbeme I have no substantive issues with mf2. Just a use case at a different level yknow?
#
bengo
snarfed I've got open source views for livefyre, twitter, fb, etc. https://github.com/Livefyre/streamhub-sdk/tree/master/src/content/views
#
cweiske
kylewm, it takes 1 second for you to respond to my ping request. http://p.cweiske.de/192
#
bengo
snarfed but they're predicated on a snowflake data model. If this were where it were at the time I started, I woulda used it http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/WD-activitystreams-vocabulary-20150129/#object-types
#
cweiske
I'm fine with the speed now
#
bengo
They don't support identical or gnu social :P
Unifex joined the channel
#
bengo
I've even got a fork that uses AS2-ish as its input data, then maps to the arbitrary stuff to reuse the views. http://roaring-river.herokuapp.com/#/personalized (you have to log in and follow some topics for awhile to see https://cloudup.com/c5aM8QYQ6NN)
#
snarfed
bengo: nice!
#
snarfed
funny, yeah, that's more or less my high level goal with https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial too
#
bengo
Yeah that's an awesome project!
#
snarfed
thanks!
#
snarfed
even implements the old opensocial API for querying those silos. looking fwd to porting that to whatever new API you all come up with
#
bengo
snarfed: awesome
#
bengo
I'm a little blocked on continuing in-work dev on AS2 stuff while we wait for our first customer to finish integrating, so I'm eager to continue building JS utility libs for my indieweb use cases
#
bengo
I'll read more of activitystreams-unofficial this week
#
ben_thatmustbeme
bengo: thats what i meant, not with mf2 itself but rather i'm trying to figure out the minimum we would need to add to support your use case
#
bengo
Is there an mf2 parser that spits out AS2 JSON?
#
bengo
Or is that what snarfed's project includes?
#
snarfed
bengo: yeah a-u does that
#
snarfed
it's poorly-named now, but oh well
KevinMarks joined the channel
#
bengo
I think that helps. It would be great to have standard enough test cases that one (me) could write a JavaScript implementation of the transformations
#
bengo
Other than that, I think the 'query a social object store' use case is kind of covered by what w3c/social is trying to do with Social API. Unless there are common patterns for that in indieweb? I haven't really seen it so far.
#
bengo
Something like this (non-normative link share) https://github.com/linkeddata/SoLiD
#
bengo
Unfortunately (?) that one is all like 'use SPARQL'
#
snarfed
bengo: we don't have many programmatic indieweb use cases for that, mostly just human use cases
#
bengo
Coolio
#
bengo
Then I'll just plan to propose something when I get my indieweb far enough
#
snarfed
we do very simple ones with http fetch + parse mf2, e.g. "most recent posts"
Erkan_Yilmaz joined the channel
#
bengo
snarfed: Where? in a-u?
#
aaronpk
you can kind of query my site for different kinds of things, http://aaronparecki.com/metrics/sleep vs http://aaronparecki.com/metrics/bikeride
#
snarfed
bengo: no, just a general indieweb pattern
#
bengo
Which could be like this week or next. I now have the human use case down (http://bengo.is/notes/). Now I kind of want to offer a json Content-Type for http://bengo.is/notes/
#
tantek
catches up on logs and senses some frustration.
#
bengo
tantek: That was me. I'm no longer frustrated just thinking out loud.
#
tantek
thinkingoutloud++
#
Loqi
thinkingoutloud has 1 karma
#
tantek
bengo, to be blunt, "snowflake APIs" are as ephemeral as snowflakes themselves (except perhaps in Boston).
#
tantek
e.g. if you check archive.org, how many snowflake APIs will you find archived? Answer: 0.
#
tantek
whereas you'll find plenty of examples of presentation, markup, even microformats archived.
#
tantek
and of course, content
#
tantek
(most importantly, content)
#
tantek
that being said, an active API is at least *some* degree of a real world example, and thus is worthy of documentation and consideration as prior art towards developing a standard
#
tantek
whether or not the API is a snowflake or based on a (defacto) standard
#
tantek
hmm - what is DataSift?
#
bengo
I just wished my customers used mf2 or something similar. In practice they all just use og or whatever twitter just made everyone do to have 'cards' for their links.
#
tantek
bengo - indeed, there's a lot of metacrap prior art
frzn joined the channel
#
tantek
let's try that again. what is DataSift?
#
tantek
bengo - did you check for .hentry,.h-entry ? (to include the backcompat syntax)
#
bengo
Just tried, no dice :(
#
tantek
the incentive fo OG is very clear and immediate. add OG, and get (improved) /link-preview in Facebook
Erkan_Yilmaz joined the channel
#
tantek
the incentive for /Twitter_Cards is less clear and less immediate. add Twitter Cards metacrap, and then apply for Twitter whitelisting of your domain, and then wait some # of days, and then hopefully they start showing up.
#
tantek
bengo, however, your point that "In practice they all just use og or whatever twitter just made everyone do" is a *very* important data point because it provides a concrete measure of "sufficient incentive"
#
tantek
we don't have to be better than all of them, just better than the worst of them that are widely adopted
#
tantek
thus if we provide more immediate benefit than Twitter Cards, that will be sufficient for people to add the markup
#
bengo
That's the thing, though. Twitter et al probably don't care about whether personal sites use markup they can read. Their customers are brands and advertisers who want cooler looking tweets flowing by their audience.
#
tantek
and we don't care about brands and advertisers since we rarely link/reply to them (and thus have no need to parse them, e.g. into a /reply-context )
#
bengo
I agree.
#
tantek
this is a key point for the indieweb - we must grow an ecosystem that is self-sustaining and growing WITHOUT depending on brands, advertisers, search engines, or any other big companies
#
bengo
The thought exercise for me is: What system could exist out there that would provide 'sufficient incentive' for a great blog like joystiq or big publisher like CNN to implement mf2-or-similar markup?
#
KevinMarks_
I think that principles like POSSE apply to brands too though
#
tantek
as soon as you start catering to any of those, you start depending on them, you make yourself vulnerable to their whims, you end up with them deciding screw it we'll do our own proprietary oligopoly thing (schema) or proprietary metacrap
#
tantek
KevinMarks: of course they do, but we don't have to do any extra work for brands
#
tantek
let brands/enterprise be trailing adopers as they usually
#
tantek
bengo: -@
#
tantek
piles on the remind bengo that no @ needed in IRC references to nicknames unless you mean to refer to someone on Twitter.
#
tantek
notices there is actually an https://twitter.com/KevinMarks_
#
KevinMarks_
what happened to hnews? that was used by publishers for a while
#
tantek
KevinMarks, I think you mean BigMedia publishers, and like any other BigCo, they can't be depended on
j12t joined the channel
#
tantek
some of them got strongarmed by schema in the early days of schema
#
tantek
(c.f. private schema workshop hosted by MS in MV, but essentially dominated by Google)
#
tantek
I think it was 2011
#
bengo
Hmm. Okay well what about a non-BigMedia publisher like Alex Williams of http://thenewstack.io/spinning-up-a-hadoop-cluster-with-apache-ambari-and-brooklyn/
#
tantek
bengo - what you found hnews?!?
#
bengo
I was hanging with him two nights last week. He knows about #indieweb. Why should he add mf2 or similar?
#
bengo
Nah I don't know hnews
#
tantek
bengo - each page on the wiki has a why section
#
tantek
or if it doesn't, it needs one
#
@thierrymarianne
RT @elfpavlik: "Implicit vs explicit object types" by @rhiaro http://rhiaro.co.uk/2015/04/post-and-activity-types see: [#hEntry #Activity] cc: [#IndieWeb #ActivityStrea…
(twitter.com/_/status/587710467772174336)
e-lima joined the channel
#
tantek
bengo - yeah that first section should be redone as why
#
tantek
bengo - check individual microformats
#
bengo
cool thx
#
tantek
I'll start adding an index to /microformats accordingly
#
tommorris
the indieweb community interested in mf2 issues are welcome to comment on http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-mime-type
#
tommorris
spots hNews being mentioned
#
tantek
tommorris: any live hNews examples left?
#
tommorris
not sure
elima_ joined the channel
#
tantek.com
created /DataSift (+267) "stub"
(view diff)
#
tantek.com
edited /DataSift (+3) "'''"
(view diff)
#
tantek.com
edited /microformats (+490) "provide some links to Why and summary of IndieWeb use of publishing and consuming"
(view diff)
#
tantek.com
edited /h-card (+38) "add Why and How simple sections around existing text"
(view diff)
#
bengo
What is hnews?
#
loqi.me
created /hNews (+70) "prompted by bengo https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-13/line/1428956920640 and dfn added by tantek"
(view diff)
#
tantek
tommorris: I wonder what hnews-specific properties that example uses
#
tantek
hmm: <span class="source-org vcard">
#
tantek
ugh: <span class="muted" rel="item-license" ...
#
tantek
and that's it
#
KevinMarks_
hnews was mostly a way to get people to use hatom (now h-entry) iirc
#
KevinMarks_
source-org and dateline being the additions, right?
snarfed, yakker and bengo joined the channel
#
bengo
Do folks use h-entry classes for styling, or is that discouraged?
#
bengo
*mf2 not just h-entry
#
aaronpk
I explicitly don't
#
aaronpk
I always add other classes for styling, so that if I need to I can move the mf2 classes around without affecting the look
#
bengo
Yay awesome
#
Loqi
does a happy dance!
#
aaronpk
tho since I didn't ever add styles to mf2 classes, I can't actually say from experience that it is a bad idea
frzn joined the channel
#
bengo
My intuition would agree with yours. Unless you're scoping it under another selector that you 'own' or can reason about the subtree of
#
KevinMarks_
I style mf2 classes
#
bengo
On your own site? Or in code you expect others to run on theirs too?
#
KevinMarks_
on my own site(s)
#
bengo
Ah then it's fine. I come from a widget-writing background where one has to be ridiculously defensive
scor joined the channel
#
bengo
about global anything
#
KevinMarks_
well, you could style them within a scope
#
bengo
Yeah. I've done some ridiculous things in the compile step of our bundle to make that happen.
#
bengo
e.g. automatically prefix all css rules with attribute selectors for THIS app at THIS version
#
bengo
So if you put two different versions on the same page...
#
bengo
`[data-lf-package~="streamhub-wall#3.4.0"] .streamhub-wall-component>menu{margin:0;padding:0;text-align:right}')` from http://cdn.livefyre.com/libs/streamhub-wall/v3.4.0/streamhub-wall.min.js
#
KevinMarks_
I style h-entry at http://svgur.com/ for example
#
KevinMarks_
that is a bit scary, bengo
frzn and marclaporte joined the channel
#
kylewm
I love that there's a couple of korean words in there
#
kylewm
also "10px" from the css :)
#
bengo
KevinMarks_ I agree. Were I to solve this from scratch without legacy integration concerns, every widget would be in an iframe so get a new/unadulterated CSS scope.
#
bengo
WebComponents/CustomElements helps... but if you need to support IE9, not sufficient
#
KevinMarks_
that was how we did gadgets with OpenSocial
frzn, yakker_, snarfed, Erkan_Yilmaz, elima_ and tantek joined the channel
#
tantek
KevinMarks there were other properties added in hNews (see the spec) - but only those two additions were in the example that tommorris provided.
#
tantek
bengo re: use mf2 classes for styling, or is that discouraged?
#
tantek
I used mf(2) classes for styling for a long time, and it works reasonably well if for sites that you build and launch and that don't evolve much.
#
tantek
However, based on my personal experience where I keep rewriting how I want my posts displayed, presented, marked up semantically based on realtime selfdogfood experimenting with indieweb things, I have found it *better* to separate them and use different classes for styling
#
tantek
though I still use some mf classes for styling on my own site, I've been transitioning away from that
#
tantek
however what I did find is that using mf classes for *storage* does work well - it maps directly to sending the same data to parsers
#
tantek
but these conclusions took years of personal experience and experimenting
#
tantek
(more reasons to value selfdogfooding of any tech, especially longterm selfdogfooding, and question any tech that is *not* selfdogfooded, especially by the creators of it)
scor joined the channel
torrorist joined the channel
#
tantek
That adactio article https://adactio.com/journal/8710 - most of the comments are RTs - of a comment - which would work better being collapsed with perhaps a facepile
#
tantek
though I don't know if we've ever ran into or talked about that before!
#
tantek
de-duping reposts of a comment with a facepile on that comment!
#
kylewm
it'd be interesting to see how bridgy publishes them
#
tantek
kylewm - right - to see if there's some way to easily de-dup them
#
tantek
but consider that reposts of comments could be 100% indieweb too
#
tantek
even if existing cases are only Twitter (that we know of()
#
kylewm
interesting that bridgy interpreted @jgarber's tweet as the POSSE copy of the adactio.com original
#
kylewm
and so published RTs of the tweet as if they were RTs of the article itself
#
tantek
"interpreted @jgarber's tweet as the POSSE copy" <-- add that to the existing issue about Bridgy's aggressive POSSE copy detection
#
@jkphl
@webrocker Unbedingt! Bin schon ab Freitag Abend in DUS, das @IndieWebCampGER mitnehmen natürlich! :) #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/587743111901773825)
lukebrooker, benwerd and loic_m_ joined the channel
#
snarfed
kylewm: tantek: thanks! yup, definitely a faq. also https://indiewebcamp.com/original-post-discovery#POSSE_Post_Discovery
#
tantek
cool. I figure the more data we can gather on this, the better a chance of coming up with an incrementally better data-driven solution.
#
snarfed
we do demote to u-mention in a number of cases. one thing we could do for this case is to detect that the domain isn't (one of) the tweet author's domain(s), and have that demote too
loic_m_ joined the channel
#
snarfed
it's funny, we want bridgy to be both more aggressive and less aggressive than it is now, depending on the case
#
kylewm.com
created /React (+169) "Created page with "{{stub}} '''<dfn>React</dfn>''' is a [[JavaScript]] library for rendering UIs that can run on the client, server, or in native iOS apps. http://facebook.github.io/react/""
(view diff)
#
kylewm
Kevin's issues were more like, he would link to a post of his from 2006, and Bridgy thought he was POSSEing right?
#
snarfed
kylewm: yup. i think there still isn't consensus on what to do then
#
tantek
that's a more challenging case
#
snarfed
backfeed his tweet as a mention, don't backfeed its replies? backfeed both his tweet and its replies as replies? something else?
#
tantek
good point snarfed, both in detection and actino
#
tantek
s/actino/action
#
Loqi
tantek meant to say: good point snarfed, both in detection and action
#
loqi.me
created /actino (+177) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek"
(view diff)
loic_m__ joined the channel
#
snarfed
oh. nm :P
#
@bookprescom
Cuckuu Turns Alarms into Social Experiences on Mobile >> http://www.adweek.com/socialtimes/?p=618332&utm_content=bufferff49a&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer #SocialMedia Tip from Brandy Shaul. #SelfPublish #IndieAuth…
(twitter.com/_/status/587752228284403714)
torrorist and bengo joined the channel
#
bengo
snarfed that question about what to back feed reminds me of getting lost in trying to grok the salmon protocol back in 2011 http://www.salmon-protocol.org/home
#
bengo
haha awesome
#
Loqi
haha
#
bengo
What's your take on the relationship between web mentions and salmon? Are they alternatives?
#
snarfed
there's a whole -unofficial family
#
snarfed
yeah, webmention + mf2 is kind of an alternative to/superset of salmon
#
snarfed
the key difference is probably that wm+mf2 has (some) current users
#
snarfed
not sure salmon does
#
bengo
That's true as far as I've seen :P
#
bengo
In the early days of LF we thought all our customers would want to run our software on-prem (a la indieweb), so spent a lot of time researching Salmon for federation. In practice no non-tech business (e.g. publishers, brands) actually seem to want to do that.
#
bengo
They eagerly prefer Silo as a Service
#
bengo
(then some do slurp up a real-time feed we send back to them, but for other use cases)
#
aaronpk
that's a good data point
#
snarfed
maybe just unlucky timing. you may have been right when you started (about on premise), and the transition happened soon after
#
bengo
I don't disagree.
#
bengo
IMO there will always be a market for both.
#
aaronpk
enterprise/government companies still prefer/require on-premise
#
bengo
Depends on what you mean by enterprise? Example?
#
aaronpk
esri is one example, mostly due to the security requirements because of all the government contracts
#
bengo
While many big companies to want to run mission-critical software on-prem. A lot of them don't consider their public website and community capabilities to be that way.
#
bengo
So they use things like Wordpress VIP + Livefyre
#
bengo
(or Acquia instead of WordPress)
#
aaronpk
boeing is a fascinating example too, and has representation in the W3C group
#
bengo
Interesting. Can't tell what CMS presents www.boeing.com, but I see a lot of 'ls-' prefixes
#
aaronpk
there's a ton of internal systems there, it's really interesting to hear Ann and Adam talk about them
torrorist joined the channel
#
KevinMarks_
when I tweet about a long-ago blogpost, I'd like my tweet backfed too, as the responses are usually to that and the context doesn't make sense without it
gRegor`, wolftune, fiatjaf and mdik_ joined the channel