#indiewebcamp 2015-10-20

2015-10-20 UTC
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snarfed
the point is that it's easier to send an encrypted IM than email?
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andicascadesf
when you say an IM
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andicascadesf
which tools are you using?
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snarfed
iMessage is a great example. it's encrypted, the implementation is generally considered good (if closed and opaque) by security experts, and as far as we know in the open, apple can't decrypt it themselves
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andicascadesf
but the messages are still stored on iCloud
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ageis
snarfed: "what works and what doesn't work. Show the # of steps it takes to encrypt and decrypt mail" she's demonstrating the PGP usability problem - what doesn't work and needs improvement, not what does work
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snarfed
andicascadesf: optionally yes, but if apple can't decrypt them, the harm there is pretty small (if any)
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snarfed
ageis: ok. but as email usage shrinks relative to the others, it's less and less a useful example
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KartikPrabhu
ageis: the only way to show that something doesn't work to lay people is to show something else that does
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andicascadesf
This brings up a good point
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andicascadesf
Who is reading these messages?
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snarfed
TextSecure is another widely used, non-Apple example of secure SMS/IM that's respected by security people
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andicascadesf
we’re not just protecting our info from the NSA, we also have to consider employers, significant others, etc.
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tantek
what is TextSecure?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "TextSecure" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/105L
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KartikPrabhu
what is iMessage?
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tantek
(too bad Loqi doesn't accept definitions from the past 10 minutes before the question ;) )
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Loqi
iMessage is a messaging service by Apple on iOS and MacOS platforms https://indiewebcamp.com/imessage
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andicascadesf
Tantek, you can download Signal, which is the Android equivalent.
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tantek
what is Signal?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Signal" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/105M
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andicascadesf
hahahhaa
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andicascadesf
I’m still getting used to this system.
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KartikPrabhu
what is tanteking?
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andicascadesf
What is Tantek?
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Loqi
Tantek-ing is a method of encouraging people to contribute to the wiki by indirectly prompting the person who first mentioned the term to create a short wiki dfn page for it https://indiewebcamp.com/tanteking
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Loqi
Tantek Çelik is the co-founder of IndieWebCamp and works on open web standards at Mozilla https://indiewebcamp.com/Tantek
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andicascadesf
ah
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andicascadesf
What is Andi?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Andi" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/105N
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tantek.com
edited /Apple (+14) "imessage"
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andicascadesf
boo
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loqi.me
created /Andi (+33) "prompted by andicascadesf https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-19/line/1445299539236 and dfn added by tantek"
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tantek
what is Andi?
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GWG
On the 31st, I'm going to WordCamp. Still trying to figure out how to pitch Indieweb to random WordPress users, many of which are business, not individual bloggers.
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andicascadesf
THanks for helping me out
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andicascadesf
I’m going to get back to work.
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tantek
what's your current personal site Andi?
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andicascadesf
it needs some work.
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tantek
is it still Andigalpern.com?
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andicascadesf
and needs to be secure
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andicascadesf
and https://cascadesf.com
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tantek
CascadeSF is a community and project right?
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andicascadesf
yes
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tantek
what is CascadeSF?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "CascadeSF" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/105P
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andicascadesf
I have to change my open web id
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andicascadesf
Since I’m not using idreamofdesign and I think everything is registered under there.
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tantek
Andi, when you have a moment, if you add rel="me" to your hyperlinks to your Twitter, LinkedIn etc., you'll be able to sign-in with IndieAuth
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tantek
e.g. change <a href="http://www.twitter.com/andigalpern" target="_blank">
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tantek
to <a href="https://twitter.com/andigalpern" rel="me" target="_blank">
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tantek
(also fixed the https and no-www problems for you :) )
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andicascadesf
okay, fixing
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andicascadesf
does it go in meta?
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tantek
no you already have those links
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tantek
view source on your website
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andicascadesf
oh duh
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andicascadesf
okay
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andicascadesf
got it
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tantek
and then edit your Twitter profile and add http://andigalpern.com/ to it
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andicascadesf
done
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tantek
you need to remove the "www." from your link to Twitter on your website
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tantek
Twitter does not use "www." which makes that extraneous
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tantek
same with your Dribbble.com link - Dribbble also does not use "www." - thus you should remove it
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tantek
in general, using "www." on domains is very outdated and something all designers should avoid
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andicascadesf
thank you.
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tantek
no problem!
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andicascadesf
Is there an IWC group on LinkedIn?
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tantek
looks pretty good! there's even a validator you can use to check your IndieAuth / Web Sign In e.g. http://indiewebify.me/validate-rel-me/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fandigalpern.com%2F
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tantek
now go to https://indiewebcamp.com/ and try logging in!
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andicascadesf
@tantek you should be a UX designer.
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GWG
LinkedIn? Never heard of it.
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andicascadesf
thanks for explaining this so simply.
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tantek
andicascadesf: thank you - I'm working on good UX on my personal site before I can claim to be one ;)
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andicascadesf
You know more than most.
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tantek
I still have some work to do
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tantek
andicascadesf: try going to https://indiewebcamp.com/ and see how obvious (or not) it is to login
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tantek
feel free to speak your mind as you have reactions
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andicascadesf
It was easy for me to find the login button
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andicascadesf
and scan
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andicascadesf
I’d like to co-organize another hack day to make the wiki responsive and improve legibility and contrast on the site.
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andicascadesf
*before Dec. 3
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tantek
andicascadesf: were you able to succesfully login?
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andicascadesf
0 supported and verified providers were found!
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tantek
(trying to stay focused on one thing at at time)
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tantek
huh - just verified
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andicascadesf
twitter.com/andigalpern
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andicascadesf
There was an error verifying this provider. Confirm you have a rel="me" link on this site pointing to your website.
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tantek
aaronpk: what is going on with IndieAuth not finding twitter.com/andigalpern link to andigalpern.com ?
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tantek
Looking at twitter.com/andigalpern - I see the link to andigalpern.com
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tantek
and andigalpern.com passes Indiewebify.me's Web Sign In validator: http://indiewebify.me/validate-rel-me/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fandigalpern.com%2F
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aaronpk
oh this is the classic www problem
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tantek
one moment andicascadesf - it appears you may have found a bug
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tantek
where is the extra www?
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tantek
I don't see it anywhere
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aaronpk
twitter shows the link as "andigalpern.com" but it's actually entered as www.andigalpern.com
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aaronpk
and they don't redirect to each other
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aaronpk
twitter is hiding the "www" from display, even though the t.co link links to www.
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tantek
is that common enough to detect an errant "www." prefix and suggest the user remove it?
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aaronpk
it's only a problem if you serve your site on both domains
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tantek
andicascadesf: in your Twitter profile, drop the "www." and just use http://andigalpern.com/
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aaronpk
if you redirecct either www. to non-www or non-www to www. then it's not a problem
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tantek
andicascadesf: in general, drop all use of "www." everywhere
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aaronpk
indieauth.com is smart enough to follow the redirects
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tantek
it's unnecessary and extraneous. classic example of the design maxim "less is more"
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tantek
we should still handle it with a better error message of course
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tantek
aaronpk: I agree - following the redirects is the right thing
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aaronpk
i would have to check if www does not redirect and only show the error in that case
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tantek
I'm just trying to see if we can provide an error message that may help users fix a (common?) mistake
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andicascadesf
lets try again
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tantek
Twitter's hiding of "www." when the user has entered it, but then using it when they click is bad design on Twitter's part
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aaronpk
it's only an error if you don't redirect one to the other
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andicascadesf
Twitter has a lot of crappy design decisions.
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tantek
it's less of an error - an extraneous redirect based on user-entry
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andicascadesf
but some good ones too.
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tantek
one should never enter "www." URLs of your own anywhere
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andicascadesf
one more design lesson: http://andigalpern.com/letsfixthis/toomanyoptions.png
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tantek
lol so true
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tantek
aaronpk: I'm still seeing IndieAuth failure
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tantek
even though when I go to https://twitter.com/andigalpern and click on andigalpern.com it actually does go to http://andigalpern.com/
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aaronpk
you have to hit "re-scan" since indieauth.com caches the list
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tantek
I did
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tantek
I hit both rescans
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tantek
no improvement
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aaronpk
oh dear, there shoudln't be two re-scans
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andicascadesf
We found the following rel=me URLs on your site:
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andicascadesf
https://twitter.com/andigalpern doesn’t link back
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andicascadesf
https://www.linkedin.com/in/andigalpern doesn’t link back
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andicascadesf
https://facebook.com/andigalpern doesn’t link back
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andicascadesf
https://dribbble.com/andigalpern doesn’t link back
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andicascadesf
So basically, I have to make sure everything links back to http://andigalpern.com
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andicascadesf
??
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tantek
aaronpk I'm seeing both "No supported rel="me" links were found on your site! Re-Scan"
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tantek
and I'm seeing: "0 supported and verified providers were found! Re-Scan"
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aaronpk
that's odd, that's a bug
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tantek
this is on Safari
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tantek
and neither rescan helps it
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tantek
andicascadesf: YES!
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andicascadesf
ah, can you add that in the wiki?
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tantek
andicascadesf: you should absolutely make sure all your silo profiles link back to http://andigalpern.com - it's important as a designer to show such a consistent personal brand design experience
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andicascadesf
until i have full access.
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andicascadesf
well, I kind of agree.
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tantek
I'm just walking you through it step by step
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andicascadesf
but sometimes I want to promote certain information.
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andicascadesf
like an event coming up, without redirecting or designing a separate section.
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tantek
that's what posts are for!
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andicascadesf
yeah but everyone has their own way of doing things.
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andicascadesf
and sometimes my way increases conversions and sales for events. ;)
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andicascadesf
I’ll hae to brainstorm an alternative.
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tantek
some things work better than others though, and that's better design
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tantek
right, increased conversions and sales is one such example!
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tantek
aaronpk - are you seeing the problems with IndieAuth that we're seeing?
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tantek
I can't find anything wrong with andicascadesf's current setup
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andicascadesf
I do
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andicascadesf
I have to add my andigalpern.com on facebook and other sites
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tantek
andicascadesf: it's ok for now - to just get it working with one silo profile
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tantek
I'm working with you to get it working with the least effort
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aaronpk
i see the problem, looking for actual logs now
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tantek
thanks!
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aaronpk
oh weird, it's not following the https://t.co/UdIdduUc9F -> http://andigalpern.com/ redirect because of the https-to-http downgrade
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tantek
andicascadesf: one moment, thanks for your patience :)
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aaronpk
is that correct behavior?
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tantek
whoa - is this because of Twitter's change to all t.co links being https?!?
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aaronpk
oh is that a change recently?
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tantek
I believe so
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tantek
to protect themselves from the same attack that happened to github's js
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aaronpk
so i'll need to whitelist this to fix it right?
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tantek
is looking for blog post
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andicascadesf
Hey guys
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andicascadesf
I really appreciate your help!
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andicascadesf
I have to run.
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tantek
andicascadesf: you just found a bug
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tantek
thank you for helping
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andicascadesf
thank you so much!
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andicascadesf
i found a bug?
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andicascadesf
where?
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tantek
due to Twitter's t.co change on 2015-10-01
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tantek
they broke our IndieAuth handling of Twitter sign-in
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tantek
and you just helped us find that
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andicascadesf
Happy to help and hope it gets fixed!
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andicascadesf
WOOHOOO!
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andicascadesf
okay still gotta run
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andicascadesf
time to do some blogilates.
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tantek
see you back soon I hope!
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andicascadesf
:-) of course byebye thanks guys!
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tantek
I think this means I have CASSIS code to update too
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tantek
as it means all t.co links now take up 23 characters in tweets
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tantek
feedback submitted on that support twitter article, and cassis.js tw_text_proxy updated per https://twittercommunity.com/t/moving-t-co-to-https-only-for-new-links/52380
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tantek
ended up deleting two lines of code, change a few others. net decrease in function / file size :)
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tantek
heh, github's POSSE to Twitter code (AKA Twitter commit hook) is really dumb at ellipsing (i.e. does so in the middle of a URL, which is unnecessary since Twitter will just t.co the whole thing) https://twitter.com/cassisjs/status/656275085511294976
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tantek
note that the last link there 404s - due to github's errant and unnecessary truncation of a URL
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@ade_oshineye
RT @withknown: Self-hosted Known 0.8.5 has left the building - with better indieweb, micropub and AMP support. http://stream.withknown.com/2015/self-hosted-known-085-has-left-the-building---with-better
(twitter.com/_/status/656279584443379712)
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kevinmarks
this one's for those of us still on python 2.x https://twitter.com/nwnk/status/656220627293065216
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@nwnk
python typing: if it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, it had fucking better not be unicode
(twitter.com/_/status/656220627293065216)
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bear
sighs over python 2.x and unicode
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bear
many many lost hours battling that beast
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@benwerd
@DeadSuperHero That's right. I think it'd be neat to see @withknown talk to #Diaspora - and for #Diaspora to speak the #indieweb protocols.
(twitter.com/_/status/656290829988827136)
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kevinmarks
oho - did you make an native app?or a webapp?
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aaronpk
testing making a native app
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aaronpk
i don't think you can get web apps to appear in that list
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Loqi
[bridgy] Drabfish O'Weird replied '@kevinmarks Cool! thank you!' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (https://twitter.com/shadowfirebird/status/656340239661834240)
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tantek
aaronpk++ whoohoo indeed!!!
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Loqi
aaronpk has 983 karma
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aaronpk
i don't know if I can get that working *and* my new site before Dec 2 but I'm sure gonna try!
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tantek.com
edited /mobile (+398) "mobile sharing with aaronpk screenshot"
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kodfabrik.se
edited /rel-feed (+143) "/* IndieWeb Examples */"
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kodfabrik.se
edited /mobile (+322) "/* mobile sharing */"
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kodfabrik.se
edited /feed_discovery (+15) "/* See Also */ adding rel-feed link"
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kodfabrik.se
edited /feed_discovery (+2) "/* Off home feeds */ Updating with reference to rel-feed page"
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kodfabrik.se
edited /h-feed (+24) "/* rel feed */ Adding link to rel-feed page"
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@antoinelyset
RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @kevinmarks: AMP, Facebook Instant Articles and Apple News are like 3 new browsers that only support a subset of …
(twitter.com/_/status/656395978031955968)
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pfefferle
good morning
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GWG
Morning
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George_
is there a recommended IndieWeb way to track a topic (like subscribing to a hashtag)?
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petermolnar
George_ that question unfortunately lacks context. What kind of topic? Topic as a post w/ reactions to them?
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petermolnar
I do not thing there's an option to subscribe to something on the whole internet
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George_
Hi yes I mean within blogs / authors who are following indieweb practices for replies etc
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George_
so a sort of within IndieWeb search (which could then allow you to follow a topic)
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petermolnar
since there is no central entity for the indie web (aka the internet); the sort answer is no, there is no way
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petermolnar
the long answer
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George_
:)
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petermolnar
in case you have a reader (see: https://indiewebcamp.com/reader ) and the reactions are represented on a site in a parsable format ( mf2, rss, etc ) it is doable, but I'm not aware of an existing solution
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petermolnar
my own solution is a plain rss/mf2 parser, sending email notifications about new posts of followed blogs, but not for the discussions or not by per topic; that is done by sieve filters afterwards
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George_
OK so it could not 'discover' a new mention of a topic for you, unless ofc linked by a post from a source you subscribe to?
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petermolnar
webmention is supposed to be p2p
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petermolnar
so 3rd party will not be notified
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petermolnar
there are two ways of how this could be done
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petermolnar
a, a centralized pubsub
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petermolnar
b, every site accepts follow requests and sends webmentions to all the requesters when the receive a new mention from somewhere
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petermolnar
b, is a massive overhead and would require implementation on every site ( eg. a change in the webmention protocol itself, making it require some sort of storage for all the subscribers ) and even if it's a decentralised solution, it may be a bit too tricky
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George_
if someone developed a crawler are there distinctive features of indieweb participant sites which could be used to index only those results?
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petermolnar
oh, I believe this was discussed a few days (weeks?) ago, let me search the relevant lines
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George_
thanks looking now
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George_
general thinking is that a decentralized topic subscription could help the ecosystem
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George_
a crawler with a good starting point potentially could allow users to create their own crawl and index
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petermolnar
pubsubhubbub is there for it
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petermolnar
kevinmarks, are you around?
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George_
OK I read that :)
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George_
I think what I am wondering about is (1) a decentralized alternative to google alerts or twitter search, which (2) can be more manageable by having a limited scope e.g. only indieweb participating sites detected by xyz schema; and (3) by use of schema/microdata allow context/content signals to be hoovered up by the crawler so that the user can better filter the firehose
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voxpelli
George_: and regarding a crawler, there's already such ones – we did crawl the entire IRC People list a few weeks/months ago to create a Twitter list of everyone for example
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voxpelli
I have my https://github.com/voxpelli/relspider, which I yet have on my to do to actually set up a continuously running instance of
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George_
Thanks looking :)
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voxpelli
Also: Google Alerts is very much decentralized, don't you think?
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voxpelli
It owns none of the data that it notifies about but gathers all of the data through crawling
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George_
Google Alerts is closed source, run by skynet, and may disappear any day... pretty much the opposite of IndieWeb ideas :D
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voxpelli
A web crawler like Google is very much in line with the IndieWeb ideas I think
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voxpelli
it's _data_ silos that aren't :)
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George_
open one with more control
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voxpelli
any one can create a web crawler of their own and compete with Google – so very indie in that way :)
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George_
I should say that the way I came to this line of thinking as a day 1 newcomer to IndieWeb site, my first reaction on reading the onboarding notes was to ask - where is the system to contribute to or track an arbitrary topic
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Loqi
it is probable
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voxpelli
http://news.indiewebcamp.com/ is an interesting take on it as well
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George_
what is the equivalent of a Twitter hashtag in a decentralized group of bloggers talking about the same thing?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "equivalent of a Twitter hashtag in a decentralized group of bloggers talking about the same thing" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/105Q
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voxpelli
http://news.indiewebcamp.com/ is the closest to hashtag
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voxpelli
it's a tag that's an URL
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George_
it is curated... so not a firehose
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voxpelli
you define a category on Twitter by prefixing it with a hash – on the web you instead pick a URL that identifies the category, no?
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voxpelli
that way content on multiple sites can easily all be found to be tagged with the same tag
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voxpelli
same way you tag persons as well
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voxpelli
but then using their profile URL:s instead
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George_
well a hastag is nothing more than a search with a loose indicator from the # character to create a unique term
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George_
it is not publishing a public url feed page
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George_
it is enabling the user to track in none or lots of detail any number of topics which are being talked out, in a platform agnostic way, but aided by microdata
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voxpelli
not sure we're talking about the same thing – let me find an example
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voxpelli
<a href="http://news.indiewebcamp.com/sv" class="u-category">news.indiewebcamp</a>
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George_
OK I see that
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voxpelli
the "u-category" indicates that the url of that a-tag is a category of that h-entry
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George_
this then goes into some moderation queue for being visible on the news URL ?
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voxpelli
if the tag-URL accepts WebMentions, then I will notify it that I have tagged it and it can do whatever it want with that – but that's just a bonus
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voxpelli
eg. the Superfeedr tracking service can still see the category and so can any other crawler or reader that wants to search for or filter on a specific tag
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George_
OK so potentially any number of pseudo classes could be adopted to help guide a web crawler which is oriented to tracking mentions
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voxpelli
not sure what you mean with pseudo classes, but yeah, they can all opt to support Microformat markup to improve their results
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George_
Is this idea of tagging category or categories for a post to a public URL going to be encouraged in onboarding new users I wonder
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voxpelli
one can use categories that are not URL:s as well, but that makes it harder to know if two sites mean the same thing with the same tag
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George_
I think this question is quite important for IndieWeb
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voxpelli
and also makes it so that no single shared source will get pinged with all the content so it will be totally dependent on the crawler
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voxpelli
but such plain text categories are what most people use today
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voxpelli
the URL ones are the next step
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George_
as one of the angles is to take people out of centralized places like wordpress.com and twitter, but at the same time you are taking away their visibility from search and tagging
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George_
I think the pinging idea sounds a bit old fashioned
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voxpelli
well, there's two ways to find out about new content on the web: Push or pull
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George_
it should be that the user just publishes content and it can be crawled and discovered - which is how the centralized systems do it
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George_
to get people to adopt the decentralized approach there must still be an easy way to ensure what poeple are saying can be discovered by people that they do not know
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voxpelli
Yes, pinging is just an additional push step on top of the pulling
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voxpelli
To enable more realtime interactions
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voxpelli
Pulling is inherently slow
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George_
I see
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voxpelli
So there's targeted pinging through WebMentions and there's broadcasted pings through Pubsubhubbub
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George_
for starters that needs a new name :D
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cweiske
George_, the centralized google also subscribed to my push hub to get instant notifications
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voxpelli
yeah, Google use PuSH for realtime sitemaps
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cweiske
for normal web site updates, too
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cweiske
I don't have a sitemap and google nevertheless subscribed
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cweiske
even the google development system subscribed :)
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voxpelli
yes, I mean, they make use of normal web site updates instead of realtime sitemaps :)
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George_
I think it is true but not relevant to say google already solved powerful indexing
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George_
for example a huge strength of anything "indie" would be not having to use Google at all, for example countries where it is blocked
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voxpelli
any substantial index like Google's will risk getting blocked
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George_
yes this is why I am wondering about the ways for a decentralized network to achieve the ability to track topics
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voxpelli
unless someone creates a way to build a distributed such crawl index
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cweiske
I only wanted to counter your "[polling is ] which is how the centralized systems do it", George_
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voxpelli
as the indieweb revolves around dogfeeding and building stuff for oneself, it's still an open question of how to solve some of these things as you first need something that's valuable to crawl before you crawl it
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voxpelli
but soon, if not now, there will be enough critical mass for such experiments to become more realistic
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George_
to reduce the scope of the question I think the first part is which user-controlled crawler can be set up to focus only (for this case) on sites participating in the markup such as the u-category mentioned here
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George_
firstly a definitive signpost "IndieWeb happening here"
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voxpelli
so far the https://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people has been the IndieWeb-list to start with
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voxpelli
then there has been discussions around group functionality on the indieweb and if that we're to materialize one could use group membership to build a crawler for just the members
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George_
if there are plans to be worldwide or scale I would say nothing should depend on lists or groups of users
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petermolnar
eg. forking our own superfeedr
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George_
anyway I have to disappear - I appreciate the realtime support and lots of stuff to read :)
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voxpelli
petermolnar: you know that Superfeedr is part of the IndieWeb and eg. supports h-feeds? ;)
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voxpelli
if they're missing anything one could probably suggest it to them – unless one really wants to scratch an itch to build such a service oneself :)
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petermolnar
yes, I am aware of it
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voxpelli
I think the bigger "issue" is the lack of clients for all such data – the plumbing is all cool and nice, but so far the indie reader / client space make very little use of it
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petermolnar
but it would cost me money, which is obviously better than spyware advertisement
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voxpelli
what would cost who money?
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cweiske
subscribing to tags costs money
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cweiske
at suprfeedr
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voxpelli
huh, didn't know
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voxpelli
that tracking is probably overkill for most things indieweb right now, as it filters through a crazy amount of feeds
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cweiske
and searching for tags across several sources is the thing i'd want right now
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cweiske
and which pubsubhubbub.club would solve
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voxpelli
would be fairly easy to build
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cweiske
as always :)
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voxpelli
PuSH subscriber -> MF2 parser -> Database -> Queries :)
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voxpelli
do none of the indie readers support such filters?
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petermolnar
voxpelli I believe the initial question from George_ included a quest for the reactions as well
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petermolnar
so it should probably support tracking those as well
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voxpelli
petermolnar: reactions to what? missed that
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petermolnar
I may have misunderstood it
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cweiske
voxpelli, but you have to subscribe to all of the feeds
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cweiske
pubsubhubbub.club would be a central instance subscribing to all of the known indieweb sites somehow
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voxpelli
cweiske: yeah, that's probably the trickiest part
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voxpelli
cweiske: if you want to have a list of all URL:s I can always run my identity crawler and have it extract all of the feeds of the irc-people list
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voxpelli
would only require some minor additions to it
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petermolnar
it could be a mixture of a crawler and a poller as well; such as starts on the irc-people sites, looks for urls on the site, incl. responses, follows urls, if url the supports re-me things and looks like indieweb, add it to the list
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voxpelli
petermolnar: I think George_ only wanted a way to label a site "IndieWeb" or "non-IndieWeb" to be know whether it should be included in the hashtag search or not
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voxpelli
but labeling a site "IndieWeb" is not very IndieWeb :P
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petermolnar
right, I misunderstood that part, and indeed, not really
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voxpelli
petermolnar: that is basically what my relspider crawler does – and feels like some complexity that would be better of separate from a pubsubhubbub-club like subscriber
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voxpelli
the following of rel-me and such that is
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petermolnar
I have to leave now, I'll read up this topic later
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kodfabrik.se
edited /User:Kodfabrik.se (+446) "Adding itches-style sections"
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kodfabrik.se
edited /User:Kodfabrik.se (-50) "/* Working on */"
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kodfabrik.se
edited /User:Kodfabrik.se (+94) "/* Working on */ better presentation"
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kodfabrik.se
edited /User:Kodfabrik.se (+13) "/* A WebMention Endpoint */"
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@hs0ucy
Cool, l'outil de partage de contenu web de #Firefox accepte aussi #Known. #IndieWeb http://h.soucy.cc/2015/cool-loutil-de-partage-de-contenu-web-de-firefox-accepte
(twitter.com/_/status/656459167528570880)
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veganstraightedge.com
edited /h-feed (+848) "/* IndieWeb Examples */"
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veganstraightedge.com
edited /h-feed (+0) "Capitalize headings"
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harryreeder.co.uk
created /events/2015-10-20-homebrew-website-club (+2168) "Late entry of 2015-10-20 HWC Edi"
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harryreeder.co.uk
edited /Main_Page (+8) "/* Homebrew Website Club */ HWC Edi 2015-10-20"
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ShaneHudson_
Not sure if you all saw it already but Andy Clarke just announced an update to his book and it now has MF2 :) https://stuffandnonsense.co.uk/blog/about/hardboiled-web-design-fifth-anniversary-edition
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harryreeder.co.uk
edited /Events (+12) "HWC Edi 2015-10-20"
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tantek.com
edited /2015/SF (-246) "Venue is set"
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tantek.com
edited /Template:IndieWebCamp (+0) "MIT is planned"
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bear
my crawler is still gathering html and mf2 data from all of the indieweb sites I know of
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bear
poo - that was me responding to a conversation that I didn't realize I was scrolled up with :/
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voxpelli
bear: the indie-stats crawler?
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voxpelli
what does it do with the data?
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bear
nothing right now - every couple of months some activity forms in this area but then ...
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voxpelli
thinking that maybe it could output a list of PuSH-enabled feeds then
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voxpelli
:) know the feeling
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bear
I have some freetime this week so I may tackle the issues listed here: https://github.com/bear/indie-stats/issues
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snarfed
bear++ woo!!! i <3 me some indie-stats
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Loqi
bear has 79 karma
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bear
oof - I see some recent issues I need to solve
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bear
thankfully I store the full html of the request so I can regenerate data at any time
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snarfed
!tell petermolnar,voxpelli,cweiske just fyi, superfeedr's tracker feature is actually free for the first 2k notifs/month (https://superfeedr.com/pricing#trackers). as a data point, bridgy's blog webmentions feature (https://www.brid.gy/about#blogs) only uses 1-2k notifs/month, so you can run a decent sized service in that budget
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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voxpelli
snarfed: weird, because that's not what the pricing page says – it says the first 2k notifications are free if you pay the base price
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Loqi
voxpelli: snarfed left you a message 1 minute ago: just fyi, superfeedr's tracker feature is actually free for the first 2k notifs/month (https://superfeedr.com/pricing#trackers). as a data point, bridgy's blog webmentions feature (https://www.brid.gy/about#blogs) only uses 1-2k notifs/month, so you can run a decent sized service in that budget http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-20/line/1445360826428
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snarfed
oh, maybe i'm reading it wrong...
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snarfed
sorry, you're right, i misread it.
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snarfed
!tell petermolnar,cweiske scratch that, i was wrong. it does have a base price of $2/feed/month. still a great service though.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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voxpelli
yeah, it sounds really nice
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snarfed
bridgy just uses the normal subscriber service, which doesn't have a base cost per feed, so it doesn't cost us anything
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kevinmarks
anyone got recommendations for ssl cert vendor for appengine use?
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kevinmarks
poetica wordpress plugin -interesting https://poetica.com/
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fran.io
edited /events/2015-10-20-homebrew-website-club (+14) "/* Edinburgh */ + fran.io"
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tantek
what is Poetica?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Poetica" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/105R
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voxpelli
wow, has Poetica pivoted to have the Wordpress plugin as their main product now? unexpected
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voxpelli
or maybe not
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voxpelli
they do have some Jekyll / static page support as well
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alexarmstrong.net
created /Template:alexarmstrong.net (+154) "Add template for Alex Armstrong"
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@CaptainKurtis
@d_seaman @twitter This might be a good time for you to research #indiewebcamp. We need to move away from corporate social media NOW!
(twitter.com/_/status/656525390517678080)
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snarfed
kevinmarks: appengine/google apps consume normal ssl certs; CA recs are probably pretty independent
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snarfed
maybe try letsencrypt? it'd be good for someone here to have direct experience with them!
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alexarmstrong.net
created /User:Alexarmstrong.net (+53) "Created page with "{{alexarmstrong.net}} → http://alexarmstrong.net""
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GWG
snarfed can I ask for brutal honesty from you and get it?
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voxpelli
snarfed: letsencrypt isn't open yet + don't they require that you install an agent on your server? :P
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snarfed
voxpelli: no clue, haven't dug deep into them yet. if they're not open then that's sad
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voxpelli
snarfed: November 16:th I think I heard that they will open – so soon! :)
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snarfed
ah nice
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snarfed
GWG: don't ask permission, just ask! :P
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voxpelli
they seems really nice
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GWG
snarfed: I know I don't program professionally, but am I really that bad a programmer?
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GWG
I am trying to be better, but some open source projects seen to expect all contributors are perfect.
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snarfed
wow, deep introspection/self awareness time!
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snarfed
GWG: you are a solid programmer, and you're clearly improving, which is the key point
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snarfed
everyone will differ in what they expect from contributors
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snarfed
and text over the internet has no "tone of voice," so it's pretty bad at accurately conveying emotional nuance
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snarfed
in general i'd recommend ignoring anything that feels personal, and just focus on the actual content of whatever you're trying to do and the changes they're asking for
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GWG
snarfed: I got tiu made a mistake, so I stopped reading.
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bear
no one is ever a *bad* programmer - your may be lower or higher on the skill continuum than whoever is saying this, but the only way, IMO, you can be *bad* is if you refuse to learn from mistakes or critiques
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GWG
Wordpress season is over for 4.4 anyway, so I can focus elsewhere till 4.5 opens up
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GWG
snarfed, I still owe you some unit tests, which going to be a running joke, it seems.
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snarfed
heh, np. jokes are fun!
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voxpelli
not had a great experience at WordPress core either :P
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GWG
I am getting there. I just wanted to have something to make more Micropub work worth it.
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voxpelli
generally smaller open source projects are nicer
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GWG
voxpelli, I got one ticket in 4.4. Notifications as hooks.
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voxpelli
GWG: congratulations!
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voxpelli
the only patch I ever got into WordPress got reverted almost immediately :) still made it onto the contributors list though!
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GWG
voxpelli: I was hoping to get enough fixes to get more useful notifications from webmentions
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voxpelli
GWG: just beware – things can take a loooooong time
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voxpelli
the discussions I had around improving API support in Drupal core in 2010 is apparently soon about to be released
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voxpelli
maybe WordPress isn't as crazy as Drupal in that regard though :)
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GWG
voxpelli: Patience is not my virtue
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GWG
voxpelli: I am not giving up. I am prone to deep introspection
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petermolnar
GWG those things happen; if you want to see an actual brutal development area, go check the linux kernel dev threads :)
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Loqi
petermolnar: snarfed left you a message 55 minutes ago: just fyi, superfeedr's tracker feature is actually free for the first 2k notifs/month (https://superfeedr.com/pricing#trackers). as a data point, bridgy's blog webmentions feature (https://www.brid.gy/about#blogs) only uses 1-2k notifs/month, so you can run a decent sized service in that budget http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-20/line/1445360826428
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Loqi
petermolnar: snarfed left you a message 52 minutes ago: scratch that, i was wrong. it does have a base price of $2/feed/month. still a great service though. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-20/line/1445360996547
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petermolnar
and to be honest, they do have solid reasons for being like that: the kernel actively used by the majority of the internet, so for keeping it fast & agile, there is no real space for British politeness
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voxpelli
the maintainer might set the tone a bit on a project as well...
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petermolnar
sure, but I do agree with Linus on this: code above everything WHEN and only when it's actually about code
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petermolnar
everywhere else, when you don't need that level of directness, speed and clarity in your text, be polite, of course
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voxpelli
I'm not so sure
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voxpelli
Fun thing about time and open source projects: two years or so after I gave up developing my Omniauth / Passport.js-like for Drupal it suddenly rocketed in usage
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petermolnar
develop some hard-realtime embedded systems with safety requirements and try to make a change; you'll realize that if you can't back it up and it's not without bugs, you'll need to take a step back and fix it
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voxpelli
from around 100 or so sites, to now over 10 000
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voxpelli
I partly gave up because it felt like no one else but me thought the idea was good – but apparently time changed that
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petermolnar
oh, that should never, ever be a reason to give up
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voxpelli
the other reason I gave up was that I no longer used Drupal myself :)
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petermolnar
we wouldn't have Tesla cars now if Elon Musk wasn't that persistent
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petermolnar
the second is a relatively valid reason which I had thought about as well, since I'm getting tired of WP and have no idea what I'll do with my plugins
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petermolnar
probably abandon them
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voxpelli
and gave up is probably the wrong word, I just lost motivation to work on it because I no longer had a use case myself and no one else seemed to have one either
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cleverdevil
GWG and voxpelli, if you're looking for some help getting more involved in the WordPress core community, I've got some people on my team at DreamHost who are very involved in the core WP community and might be able to help.
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cleverdevil
just let me know if you want introductions!
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voxpelli
cleverdevil: cool – it's mostly GWG, pfefferle and a bit Snarfed that does the WP-things – I'm just cheering from the side as I have done a lot of WP in the past
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GWG
cleverdevil: I keep trying to refine pingbacks, but more as a precursor to webmentions.
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snarfed
huh, interesting. bridgy sent my rsvp on https://www.facebook.com/events/175203116150206/ to the wiki as an rsvp, but to kylewm's indie event (https://kylewm.com/2015/12/indiewebcamp-sf-2015) only as a mention
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snarfed
...because of the new original post discovery logic added in https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/51 , since indiewebcamp.com is in the IWC facebook profile (https://www.facebook.com/indiewebcamp), but kylewm.com isn't
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snarfed
the system works, i guess :|
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snarfed
ohhh actually i think we've seen this before, and added kylewm.com to the FB profile because of it, but we didn't re-auth bridgy afterward, so it doesn't know that
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snarfed
i'll do that now
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snarfed
hrm, didn't find kylewm.com. i'll file an issue
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Loqi
cweiske: snarfed left you a message 2 hours, 39 minutes ago: just fyi, superfeedr's tracker feature is actually free for the first 2k notifs/month (https://superfeedr.com/pricing#trackers). as a data point, bridgy's blog webmentions feature (https://www.brid.gy/about#blogs) only uses 1-2k notifs/month, so you can run a decent sized service in that budget http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-20/line/1445360826428
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Loqi
cweiske: snarfed left you a message 2 hours, 36 minutes ago: scratch that, i was wrong. it does have a base price of $2/feed/month. still a great service though. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-20/line/1445360996547
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cweiske
"oday, as long as you're not blocking Googlebot from crawling your JavaScript or CSS files, we are generally able to render and understand your web pages like modern browsers."
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cweiske
so they are indexing javascript-generated content
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cweiske
quite the opposite to js;dr
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tantek
well they claim to be - still haven't seen any evidence that pages dependent on js for content get any kind of decent search rankings
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cweiske
maybe js-generated pages don't have anything relevant to say? :)
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tantek
#! was one of original ways to produce bad js;dr pages/sites
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kylewm
ok facebook doesn't even have "Not Going" as an option for events anymore
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kylewm
you're either "Interested" or "Going"
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kylewm
it's weird, "Regrets" is an informative answer when planning an event...
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kevinmarks
tantek: https://www.google.com/search?q=kevin+marks the SERP for the top result is from js-injected webmentions
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kevinmarks
I wodner if they look for $searchterm was or $searchterm is ?
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voxpelli
kylewm: I said Not Going to some Fb events today :P
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tantek
huh - lots of onebox type stuff
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voxpelli
kevinmarks: wow – so Google is even making AJAX request to third party services like mine – I would not have expected that :P
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voxpelli
not that it's bad, just unexpected
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kevinmarks
it is weird that they make the serp from the 5th occurence of my name on the page, and ignore the hcard at the top
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kevinmarks
I wonder if I made it an mf1 hcard it would show up
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tantek
why not both?
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Jeena
HWC tomorrow evening in GOT!
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tantek
Woot!
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Loqi
woot
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kevinmarks
interesting bit "Does the CMS support structured content? Is content broken down into reusable chunks? Are inputs stored as specific data types? "
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kevinmarks
"Traditional, page-centric tools store information in big blobs of data, where actual content is mixed with formatting styles and layout elements. Karen McGrane has illustrated the painful struggle to adopt such content to new mediums in all its gory details. The antidote to the majority of these problems is to disassemble undifferentiated content blobs into small, reusable chunks of data and keep this data strictly separate
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snarfed
modularity++
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Loqi
modularity has 3 karma
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snarfed
decoupling++
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Loqi
decoupling has 3 karma
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gRegorLove
Re: modularity, that's something I really like about ProcessWire. Since each template is basically a custom collection of fields, I can easily separate out distinct parts, like post content, syndication URLs, in-reply-to URLs, etc. and construct different views. It feels a lot better than trying to bolt on functionality to a CMS.
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kevinmarks
don't be put off by the title, it's more like list oriented
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kevinmarks
"mobile first simply means forced prioritization. It means think about layout later. Start with a single column “design” (also known as a list), and force yourself to prioritize content and functionality with sequential ranking."
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