#snarfediMessage is a great example. it's encrypted, the implementation is generally considered good (if closed and opaque) by security experts, and as far as we know in the open, apple can't decrypt it themselves
#andicascadesfbut the messages are still stored on iCloud
#ageissnarfed: "what works and what doesn't work. Show the # of steps it takes to encrypt and decrypt mail" she's demonstrating the PGP usability problem - what doesn't work and needs improvement, not what does work
#snarfedandicascadesf: optionally yes, but if apple can't decrypt them, the harm there is pretty small (if any)
#snarfedageis: ok. but as email usage shrinks relative to the others, it's less and less a useful example
#KartikPrabhuageis: the only way to show that something doesn't work to lay people is to show something else that does
#LoqiTantek-ing is a method of encouraging people to contribute to the wiki by indirectly prompting the person who first mentioned the term to create a short wiki dfn page for it https://indiewebcamp.com/tanteking
#GWGOn the 31st, I'm going to WordCamp. Still trying to figure out how to pitch Indieweb to random WordPress users, many of which are business, not individual bloggers.
#tantekandicascadesf: you should absolutely make sure all your silo profiles link back to http://andigalpern.com - it's important as a designer to show such a consistent personal brand design experience
#tantekended up deleting two lines of code, change a few others. net decrease in function / file size :)
#tantekheh, github's POSSE to Twitter code (AKA Twitter commit hook) is really dumb at ellipsing (i.e. does so in the middle of a URL, which is unnecessary since Twitter will just t.co the whole thing) https://twitter.com/cassisjs/status/656275085511294976
#petermolnarin case you have a reader (see: https://indiewebcamp.com/reader ) and the reactions are represented on a site in a parsable format ( mf2, rss, etc ) it is doable, but I'm not aware of an existing solution
#petermolnarmy own solution is a plain rss/mf2 parser, sending email notifications about new posts of followed blogs, but not for the discussions or not by per topic; that is done by sieve filters afterwards
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#George_OK so it could not 'discover' a new mention of a topic for you, unless ofc linked by a post from a source you subscribe to?
#petermolnarb, every site accepts follow requests and sends webmentions to all the requesters when the receive a new mention from somewhere
#petermolnarb, is a massive overhead and would require implementation on every site ( eg. a change in the webmention protocol itself, making it require some sort of storage for all the subscribers ) and even if it's a decentralised solution, it may be a bit too tricky
#George_if someone developed a crawler are there distinctive features of indieweb participant sites which could be used to index only those results?
#petermolnaroh, I believe this was discussed a few days (weeks?) ago, let me search the relevant lines
#George_I think what I am wondering about is (1) a decentralized alternative to google alerts or twitter search, which (2) can be more manageable by having a limited scope e.g. only indieweb participating sites detected by xyz schema; and (3) by use of schema/microdata allow context/content signals to be hoovered up by the crawler so that the user can better filter the firehose
#voxpelliGeorge_: and regarding a crawler, there's already such ones – we did crawl the entire IRC People list a few weeks/months ago to create a Twitter list of everyone for example
#voxpelliany one can create a web crawler of their own and compete with Google – so very indie in that way :)
#George_I should say that the way I came to this line of thinking as a day 1 newcomer to IndieWeb site, my first reaction on reading the onboarding notes was to ask - where is the system to contribute to or track an arbitrary topic
#George_what is the equivalent of a Twitter hashtag in a decentralized group of bloggers talking about the same thing?
#LoqiIt looks like we don't have a page for "equivalent of a Twitter hashtag in a decentralized group of bloggers talking about the same thing" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/105Q
#voxpellibut then using their profile URL:s instead
#George_well a hastag is nothing more than a search with a loose indicator from the # character to create a unique term
#George_it is not publishing a public url feed page
#George_it is enabling the user to track in none or lots of detail any number of topics which are being talked out, in a platform agnostic way, but aided by microdata
#voxpellinot sure we're talking about the same thing – let me find an example
#voxpellithe "u-category" indicates that the url of that a-tag is a category of that h-entry
#George_this then goes into some moderation queue for being visible on the news URL ?
#voxpelliif the tag-URL accepts WebMentions, then I will notify it that I have tagged it and it can do whatever it want with that – but that's just a bonus
#voxpellieg. the Superfeedr tracking service can still see the category and so can any other crawler or reader that wants to search for or filter on a specific tag
#George_OK so potentially any number of pseudo classes could be adopted to help guide a web crawler which is oriented to tracking mentions
#voxpellinot sure what you mean with pseudo classes, but yeah, they can all opt to support Microformat markup to improve their results
#George_Is this idea of tagging category or categories for a post to a public URL going to be encouraged in onboarding new users I wonder
#George_as one of the angles is to take people out of centralized places like wordpress.com and twitter, but at the same time you are taking away their visibility from search and tagging
#George_I think the pinging idea sounds a bit old fashioned
#voxpelliwell, there's two ways to find out about new content on the web: Push or pull
#George_it should be that the user just publishes content and it can be crawled and discovered - which is how the centralized systems do it
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#George_to get people to adopt the decentralized approach there must still be an easy way to ensure what poeple are saying can be discovered by people that they do not know
#voxpelliYes, pinging is just an additional push step on top of the pulling
#George_for example a huge strength of anything "indie" would be not having to use Google at all, for example countries where it is blocked
#voxpelliany substantial index like Google's will risk getting blocked
#George_yes this is why I am wondering about the ways for a decentralized network to achieve the ability to track topics
#voxpelliunless someone creates a way to build a distributed such crawl index
#cweiskeI only wanted to counter your "[polling is ] which is how the centralized systems do it", George_
#voxpellias the indieweb revolves around dogfeeding and building stuff for oneself, it's still an open question of how to solve some of these things as you first need something that's valuable to crawl before you crawl it
#voxpellibut soon, if not now, there will be enough critical mass for such experiments to become more realistic
#George_to reduce the scope of the question I think the first part is which user-controlled crawler can be set up to focus only (for this case) on sites participating in the markup such as the u-category mentioned here
#George_firstly a definitive signpost "IndieWeb happening here"
#voxpellithen there has been discussions around group functionality on the indieweb and if that we're to materialize one could use group membership to build a crawler for just the members
#George_if there are plans to be worldwide or scale I would say nothing should depend on lists or groups of users
#George_anyway I have to disappear - I appreciate the realtime support and lots of stuff to read :)
#voxpellipetermolnar: you know that Superfeedr is part of the IndieWeb and eg. supports h-feeds? ;)
#voxpelliif they're missing anything one could probably suggest it to them – unless one really wants to scratch an itch to build such a service oneself :)
#voxpelliI think the bigger "issue" is the lack of clients for all such data – the plumbing is all cool and nice, but so far the indie reader / client space make very little use of it
#petermolnarbut it would cost me money, which is obviously better than spyware advertisement
#cweiskevoxpelli, but you have to subscribe to all of the feeds
#cweiskepubsubhubbub.club would be a central instance subscribing to all of the known indieweb sites somehow
#voxpellicweiske: yeah, that's probably the trickiest part
#voxpellicweiske: if you want to have a list of all URL:s I can always run my identity crawler and have it extract all of the feeds of the irc-people list
#voxpelliwould only require some minor additions to it
#petermolnarit could be a mixture of a crawler and a poller as well; such as starts on the irc-people sites, looks for urls on the site, incl. responses, follows urls, if url the supports re-me things and looks like indieweb, add it to the list
#voxpellipetermolnar: I think George_ only wanted a way to label a site "IndieWeb" or "non-IndieWeb" to be know whether it should be included in the hashtag search or not
#voxpellibut labeling a site "IndieWeb" is not very IndieWeb :P
#petermolnarright, I misunderstood that part, and indeed, not really
#voxpellipetermolnar: that is basically what my relspider crawler does – and feels like some complexity that would be better of separate from a pubsubhubbub-club like subscriber
#bearoof - I see some recent issues I need to solve
#bearthankfully I store the full html of the request so I can regenerate data at any time
#snarfed!tell petermolnar,voxpelli,cweiske just fyi, superfeedr's tracker feature is actually free for the first 2k notifs/month (https://superfeedr.com/pricing#trackers). as a data point, bridgy's blog webmentions feature (https://www.brid.gy/about#blogs) only uses 1-2k notifs/month, so you can run a decent sized service in that budget
#GWGsnarfed: I know I don't program professionally, but am I really that bad a programmer?
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#GWGI am trying to be better, but some open source projects seen to expect all contributors are perfect.
#snarfedwow, deep introspection/self awareness time!
#snarfedGWG: you are a solid programmer, and you're clearly improving, which is the key point
#snarfedeveryone will differ in what they expect from contributors
#snarfedand text over the internet has no "tone of voice," so it's pretty bad at accurately conveying emotional nuance
#snarfedin general i'd recommend ignoring anything that feels personal, and just focus on the actual content of whatever you're trying to do and the changes they're asking for
#GWGsnarfed: I got tiu made a mistake, so I stopped reading.
#bearno one is ever a *bad* programmer - your may be lower or higher on the skill continuum than whoever is saying this, but the only way, IMO, you can be *bad* is if you refuse to learn from mistakes or critiques
#GWGWordpress season is over for 4.4 anyway, so I can focus elsewhere till 4.5 opens up
#GWGsnarfed, I still owe you some unit tests, which going to be a running joke, it seems.
#petermolnarand to be honest, they do have solid reasons for being like that: the kernel actively used by the majority of the internet, so for keeping it fast & agile, there is no real space for British politeness
#voxpellithe maintainer might set the tone a bit on a project as well...
#petermolnarsure, but I do agree with Linus on this: code above everything WHEN and only when it's actually about code
#petermolnareverywhere else, when you don't need that level of directness, speed and clarity in your text, be polite, of course
#voxpelliFun thing about time and open source projects: two years or so after I gave up developing my Omniauth / Passport.js-like for Drupal it suddenly rocketed in usage
#petermolnardevelop some hard-realtime embedded systems with safety requirements and try to make a change; you'll realize that if you can't back it up and it's not without bugs, you'll need to take a step back and fix it
#voxpellifrom around 100 or so sites, to now over 10 000
#voxpelliI partly gave up because it felt like no one else but me thought the idea was good – but apparently time changed that
#petermolnaroh, that should never, ever be a reason to give up
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#voxpellithe other reason I gave up was that I no longer used Drupal myself :)
#petermolnarwe wouldn't have Tesla cars now if Elon Musk wasn't that persistent
#petermolnarthe second is a relatively valid reason which I had thought about as well, since I'm getting tired of WP and have no idea what I'll do with my plugins
#voxpelliand gave up is probably the wrong word, I just lost motivation to work on it because I no longer had a use case myself and no one else seemed to have one either
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#cleverdevilGWG and voxpelli, if you're looking for some help getting more involved in the WordPress core community, I've got some people on my team at DreamHost who are very involved in the core WP community and might be able to help.
#cleverdeviljust let me know if you want introductions!
#voxpellicleverdevil: cool – it's mostly GWG, pfefferle and a bit Snarfed that does the WP-things – I'm just cheering from the side as I have done a lot of WP in the past
#snarfedohhh actually i think we've seen this before, and added kylewm.com to the FB profile because of it, but we didn't re-auth bridgy afterward, so it doesn't know that
#cweiske"oday, as long as you're not blocking Googlebot from crawling your JavaScript or CSS files, we are generally able to render and understand your web pages like modern browsers."
#cweiskeso they are indexing javascript-generated content
#kevinmarksinteresting bit "Does the CMS support structured content? Is content broken down into reusable chunks? Are inputs stored as specific data types? "
#kevinmarks"Traditional, page-centric tools store information in big blobs of data, where actual content is mixed with formatting styles and layout elements. Karen McGrane has illustrated the painful struggle to adopt such content to new mediums in all its gory details. The antidote to the majority of these problems is to disassemble undifferentiated content blobs into small, reusable chunks of data and keep this data strictly separate
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#gRegorLoveRe: modularity, that's something I really like about ProcessWire. Since each template is basically a custom collection of fields, I can easily separate out distinct parts, like post content, syndication URLs, in-reply-to URLs, etc. and construct different views. It feels a lot better than trying to bolt on functionality to a CMS.
#kevinmarksdon't be put off by the title, it's more like list oriented
#kevinmarks"mobile first simply means forced prioritization. It means think about layout later. Start with a single column “design” (also known as a list), and force yourself to prioritize content and functionality with sequential ranking."