#indiewebcamp 2015-12-02
2015-12-02 UTC
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# 
@jgmac1106 @kylewmahan I go the hcard and the rel=me links figured out but still some work to do on #indieweb stuff. (twitter.com/_/status/671844553696124928)
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dhalgren GWG: I'm pretty sure this attempt of mine is a dead-end.I'll ask support via mail tomorrow to be sure, but doesn't seem I can upload anything to wp-content/plugins using this default host free domains in my country get. Guess it makes sense not to allow random php code to get executed... are there WP hosts that would allow this, or should I just install WP myself on say heroku or such?
# 
@pauloppenheim hey web people, IndieWebCamp SF on Thursday: http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/SF (twitter.com/_/status/671852903275991040)
# dhalgren snarfed: I tried to find any indications of such an option in the console. maybe I missed it? lemme see again
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# snarfed e.g. bottom left of the the screen shot on https://wordpress.org/
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# dhalgren no, mine's got users below appeareance
# dhalgren no plugins on the left bar :(
# dhalgren prob
# dhalgren little; there's some FAQ and getting started videos, but not much beyond logging in to the admin interface. I'll send a mail though, to confirm.
# snarfed if you're hoping for free, you could use blogger, wordpress.com, or tumblr. the wiki has details on how to use your own domain and set up indieauth, and you can send/receive webmentions with https://brid.gy/about#blogs
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# dhalgren yy, thx. I'll go w wordpress.cik then.
# dhalgren com
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tantek.com edited /2015/SF/Guest_List (+27) "/* Participants */ raised capacity to 40" (view diff)
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# dhalgren hm, not quite free though, snarfed ; mapping a domain is 13$ apparently. Well, that's not much but...
# snarfed i think domain may be free for the other two. i expect the wiki probably already knows, either on https://indiewebcamp.com/web_hosting or the specific silo pages
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@wavis @kylewmahan Thanks for the invite. Got approval for PTO and rsvp'd with my #indieauth ID http://www.wavis.org/ (twitter.com/_/status/671897499758518273)
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Loqi [bridgy] wavis replied '@kylewmahan Thanks for the invite. Got approval for PTO and rsvp'd with my #indieauth ID wavis.org' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/SF (https://twitter.com/wavis/status/671897499758518273)
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[kevinmarks] Domain is free on blogger, but they'll sell you one. Withknown.com has deals with some domain vendors too
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# eliemichel hi, does anybody remember a way to reply to a fragment of a text?
# eliemichel I think I found it on something indieweb-related the first time but I cannot find it
# eliemichel I think about something with the url
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petermolnar eliemichel are you looking for http://indiewebcamp.com/fragmentions ?
# eliemichel like foobar.com#first-words--last-words or something
# eliemichel petermolnar: think so
# eliemichel thx
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# dhalgren so, I'm gonna try and convince my country's free blogging service to allow indieweb compatibility for the hosted blogs. Fat chance I think, but at least to make them aware of it..
# eliemichel dhalgren: which country is it?
# dhalgren croatia
# eliemichel nope
# eliemichel (France)
# eliemichel or I'm not aware of it
# eliemichel that's an interesting initiative, though
# eliemichel oh yeah sorry, I just realized
# eliemichel weechat uses the same color for both of you
# dhalgren cweiske: apparently. http://from.hr guides one through setting it up. Free personal domain and optionally wp hosting. Can't use any plugins sadly, nor do I have ftp to upload anything (sensible security precaution prob) so that makes it unusable for IndieWeb, but looking into it
# eliemichel so i got confused
# dhalgren cweiske: yup. Initiatve of the state's academic network, that doubles as the country's TLD body.
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# dhalgren don't think its used much (poor visibility), but noticed the option when I was digging through their docs&rules, since a company I worked at was arguing with them about allowing a certain domainname
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# dhalgren` which specific plugins should I ask for being whitelisted/bundled to ensure IndieWeb compatibility?
# dhalgren` damn, I find it really difficult to think in my native language about technical terms/discussions :)
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# dhalgren` anyone here using WP? I'm wondering if this is a sensible core list to ask support for? I see there's more but I don't wanna scare them off by asking for too much: IndieWeb plugin, Sempress theme, Webmention plugin, Semantic Linkback plugin, Post Kinds plugin?
# dhalgren` kk. I'll wait
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# dhalgren` what's the relationship of IndieWeb w w3c's Social Web WG? I saw there's some participation in it, but the protocols being discussed look quite different (uf2 vs RDF-based)? Is there hope of future convergence or are expectations it birthing something practical low?
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# dhalgren` :) sure
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# dhalgren` thx, y I was drawing the ideas from there. but there's a lot more of them mentioned there, I have a feeling too much to suggest to a potentially unwilling admin, so maybe a bit of input from someone already using some of them would help
# petermolnar what do you mean by support? I don't know what GWG and pfefferle are doing for a living, but if it's a paid support, the chances to get it would be much higher I believe
# petermolnar is a WP user as well
# dhalgren` nono
# dhalgren` ah!
# dhalgren` nono; I'm trying to convince a certain national blogging service to include the option of enabling some core IndieWeb plugins. Long shot, but thought it worth a trying.
# dhalgren` since plugins in general seem to be blocked there
# dhalgren` petermolnar: great! so what do you think about the list? Should I aim for more? Are some more critical than what I plan to name?
# petermolnar I've just edited the getting started on WP page yesterday :) I think that's a good list for setting wp up as an indieweb site.
# petermolnar the most important parts are the rel=me supports for the theme, the microformats2 support for the theme and the webmention plugins
# petermolnar ( webmentions + semantic linkbacks )
# petermolnar the rest can wait
# dhalgren` so, that's webmentions, semantic linkbacks and the sempress theme?
# petermolnar approximately, yes, but that is my opinion and I'd ask pfefferle & GWG as well
# dhalgren` thx! so, what does the IndieWeb plugin actually do? "helps install various indieweb plugins" sonds very meta
# dhalgren` *sounds
# dhalgren` thx!
# petermolnar probably the next step is the bridgy publish
# dhalgren` so, post kinds is not as critical?
# petermolnar not in my opinion, no
# dhalgren` great
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# petermolnar the indieweb plugin is a dashboard to install the mentioned plugins
# petermolnar so it's a plugin-installer plugin
# petermolnar and that probably won't get whitelisted directly for this reason
# dhalgren` yeah, good point
# petermolnar so the workflow in my opinion: get webmentions, semantic linkbacks, the sempress theme and bridgy publish whitelisted and you're more or less good to go as indieweb-compatible
# petermolnar cweiske no worries :)
# dhalgren` that's what I'll do, then. after confirming w pfefferle and GWG.
# dhalgren` I'm trying to frame it as them supporting the open web, since I know they do have such rethoric and initiative.
# dhalgren` hence my q on standards bodies - thought w3c participation could lend credence to that thesis
# dhalgren` petermolnar: btw, what's this buddypress thing? don't tell me, yet another open social net initiative?? ugh
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# petermolnar sorry, I was away; dhalgren` buddypress is a "social network" plugin; basically adds frontend user options, like walls, private messages, etc; slow as hell, but robust, impossible to theme
# dhalgren` thx! does that across different blogs with that plugin enabled? does it use some existing protocols for what it does, or its own solution?
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# dhalgren` another q, if I may without being too much of a nag, petermolnar: is this a fair characterisation of the different components: for sempress theme, I state that it gives support for uf2 markup, for webmention that its a newer linkback protocol modelled after pingback, for semantic linkback that it turns linkback notifications into replies, likes etc by reading their uf2 markup, and for bridgy that it pulls reactions on the shared conte
# dhalgren` on existing social networks back into the blog with the original post, as a compatibility layer
# petermolnar that is a fair summary
# petermolnar go may want to add it to the getting started page :)
# dhalgren` thx, sure. gotta try setting up IndieAuth first, which is a good idea
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# dhalgren` easy as "advertised", nice!
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# damjan-novak.from.hr edited /Getting_Started_on_WordPress (+147) "/* Syndicate your content to other sites */ embedding a short (attempt at?) description of bridgy, so a newcomer might grasp the point of it w/o chasing links to long articles elsewhere" (view diff)
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# damjan-novak.from.hr edited /Getting_Started_on_WordPress (+77) "/* Required Plugins */ thought stating it merely makes things "look better" sounded superficial and/or possibly subjective" (view diff)
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# damjan-novak.from.hr edited /Getting_Started_on_WordPress (+4) "/* Required Plugins */" (view diff)
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jonnybarnes aaronpk can you update https://ssl.pin13.net/indiewebcamp/ to not tell people to use SSL?
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jonnybarnes.uk edited /HTTPS (-3) "/* Level 6 security */ My domain is now jonnybarnes.uk" (view diff)
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# jonnybarnes.uk edited /HTTPS (+176) "/* Maintenance tax and site fragility */ let’s encrypt’s solution?" (view diff)
# jonnybarnes is it worth adding HTTP/2 to the Why? section of HTTPS?
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# jonnybarnes oh dear, a netsplit
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# jonnybarnes is it over?
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@benwerd @holden @dkernohan #indieweb plugins are available to do just that. (twitter.com/_/status/672091599690592256)
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kylewm aaronpk: where are you seeing this? it looks ok on https://reader.kylewm.com/?entry=https://kylewm.com/2015/11/silo-pub-as-a-generic-micropub-to-silo-adapter
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# kevinmarks_ !tell dhalgren` you could also ask from.hr to allow Known to be used - see withknown.com - they're pure indieweb and run anywhere wordpress does
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# kevinmarks_ I think that is a bit precious tbh
# dhalgren` kevinmarks_: hm, well I'll try suggesting that as an alternative to the plugin set; heh, I'd love to do something to support Known :D Think its an even longer shot then this though, as they've already got a presumably large WP deployment. Not that I'm too hopefull to begin with; think its easiest for the admin in q to simply say no to whatever I write :(
# Loqi dhalgren`: kevinmarks_ left you a message 4 minutes ago: you could also ask from.hr to allow Known to be used - see withknown.com - they're pure indieweb and run anywhere wordpress does http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-12-02/line/1449074927906
# kevinmarks_ we can always change examples later if they go site death on us
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# kevinmarks_ dhalgren`: I'm not sure if known is translated into croatian yet
# dhalgren` oh, that's a good point too.
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# dhalgren` kevinmarks_: how much of text are we talking about? maybe I could give it a shot?
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# dhalgren` kevinmarks_: is it using gettext/.po files? didn't see them glancing through the repo.. I did some translation with those previously; or maybe some other localization system; how different can it be? I'd have to doublecheck, but if my memory serves me, translating the docs needn't be a priority, for I think they linked to english-lang wordpress docs anyhow, so that wouldn't be a comparative flaw. I did however switch it to english as
# dhalgren` soon as I could so I may be mistaken.
# kylewm dhalgren`: you could volunteer on https://github.com/idno/Known/issues/1002 if you want to :)
# dhalgren` thx
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# kevinmarks_ so, looks like it needs some refactoring first
# dhalgren` ah, y . I'd be much easier if the localization mehanism was already in place, say for any other lang
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# dhalgren` there's linked-data related localization technologies, ticket mentiones? gotta see what that is
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# kevinmarks_ have you tried google translator toolkit?
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# dhalgren` no. wiki suggest that's for improving what google translate produces? If so, I don't think that helps much in translating from english to any highly inflected and poorly resourced language. maybe I'm misunderstanding its purpose though.
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# kevinmarks_ no, it lets you upload files, translates them by machine and lets you edit the transaltions
# kevinmarks_ I'm trying it on noter live
# dhalgren` yeah, well that's roughly equivalent to giving you an empty page, as SMT's output is way too far from just editable quality, I'm sorry to say.
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# dhalgren` bet it's great for say french, though...
# kevinmarks_ heh
# kevinmarks_ I was trying in french as that and german are about as far as I get
# dhalgren` is german decent enough?
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# kevinmarks_ a lot of it depends on them having good parallel texts to train on
# kevinmarks_ so a lot of EU official documents
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# kevinmarks_ in the first release, if you put in Blair it would translate to Sarkozy
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# dhalgren` kevinmarks_: hah! y, but there are also linguistic characteristic that make it harder or easier for it to work. Like, finnish is pretty hopeless, being agglutinative. Lots of morphology can make the model too sparse, and reasonable forms may not even be seen - huge long tail of such phenomena can exist. It's relatively easy w near-analytic languages like english, or with at least not too many forms -- but also german compounding seems
# dhalgren` to make it a hardish nut to crack, even though its well resourced. Last world machine translation was in en -> de was won by a neural network, closely followed by a model w explicit syntax, both substantially beating your regular pharse-based models.
# kevinmarks_ google does it with giant machine learning that combines a statistcial model of each language and mappings derived from parallel texts
# kevinmarks_ and when you manually edit translations it adds that to the model
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# dhalgren` kevinmarks_: yeah. and mostly phrase-based. Gets beaten in certain pairs despite its massive data advantage. Like en -> czech is consistently won by a czech system, incorporating lots of old-fashioned linguistic syntactic analysis (tectoML, transfer-based, using ideas of some prague school of syntax), a google-ish phrase-based system and a rules-based "fixer" of common mistakes. Chimera, they call the resulting monstrosity.
# dhalgren` ofc , what google does scales to many more languages; they just need data, not hand-crafted precise syntactic analysis
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# kevinmarks_ and of course other translations just get slurped in too
# dhalgren` eh, eventually. though I think more flexible models than what is currently mainstream of translation will become dominant, at least for tricky pairs. Like what Bengio's group demonstrated this year for en->de with deep learning I just mentioned. It's all the rage everywhere else in google, why not infect translate as well?
# dhalgren` y, sorry, sidetracked
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# 
tantek who said they were implementing /Vouch recently? Did you add yourself to /Vouch#IndieWeb_Examples ? was it gRegorLove ?
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# 
gRegorLove Yep and yep
# gRegorLove s/Yep and yep/Me, yep, and yes./
# adactio So it looks logging in with IndieAuth using Twitter isn't working anymore (we've got multiple people here at Homebrew Website Club reproducing the problem). We suspect it might be because Twitter has started encoding the link back to your own website with a t.co redirect. (or have they been doing that for a while?)
# Loqi adactio: tantek left you a message on 11/25 at 7:03pm: are you hosting HWC Brighton https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-12-02-homebrew-website-club ? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-25/line/1448507033523
# Loqi adactio: tantek left you a message on 11/28 at 10:55am: Is there a HWC Brighton this coming week? https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-12-02-homebrew-website-club#Where http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-28/line/1448736933105
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# kylewm No rel=me link was found on https://twitter.com/kylewmahan to https://kylewm.com/
# gRegorLove adactio: Have any of them tried updating their URL listed in their Twitter profile? A while ago (a year?) I found that worked. Same URL, just updating the profile did something... regenerated the t.co URL, probably?
# kylewm t.co redirects to https://kylewm.com instead of https://kylewm.com/ (trailing slash), I wonder if that's it??
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# dhalgren` kylewm: then that would be a problem if another auth provider did that as well? for my github directs to a no-ending-slash domain too, and works.
# dhalgren` ah, well its not a redirect but in the <a> itself, maybe that's a relevant diff...
# gRegorLove Confirmed my twitter broke on indieauth rescan as well
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# kevinmarks I tried the google transalte toolkit on noterlive for french http://www.noterlive.com/index.fr.html
# Loqi kevinmarks: kylewm left you a message 16 minutes ago: is known.kevinmarks.com hosted on withknown.com still? I didn't get a webmention from your last comment to me :( http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-12-02/line/1449082094922
# kevinmarks hm
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# jonnybarnes can we extend micropub’s querying to include places?
# jonnybarnes my micropub client currently querires my site directly to get places near the given lat/lng
# jonnybarnes a new place can be created by making h-card POST to the micropub endpoint
# jonnybarnes it seems sensible to me that we should also be able to query for existing places over micropub as well
# jonnybarnes well, it means I can’t use anyone elses client if I wanted to “checkin” somewhere
# jonnybarnes and one else could use mine unless I’d already created the place
# jonnybarnes to checkin you need to know which places alreasy exist, thus you need to be able to query for them
# adactio tantek: this post? https://adactio.com/notes/9903
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# 
ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: which ways are you trying to fix it
# ben_thatmustbeme i have seen that done before (wget returns different things unless you give it a proper user agent string
# kevinmarks I fetch the intent
# kevinmarks except you need an api key fro that, and you can just curl the intent
# kylewm aaronpk: maybe relevant? are you being redirected to mobile? https://twitter.com/meyerweb/status/672097284302241792
# 
@meyerweb Interesting: Safari 6 (yes, 6) is auto-redirected to mobile”¤twitter”¤com. [photo] (twitter.com/_/status/672097284302241792)
# ben_thatmustbeme oh yeah, they could be split testing
# kevinmarks ah, right, you're in indieauth flow.
# kevinmarks I am cheating for hovercards
# ben_thatmustbeme wonder if there is anyone at twitter we can ping about that missing rel
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# ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: speak his name and he hops the channel apparently
# kevinmarks I think that was a mini netsplit
# ben_thatmustbeme !tell benward would you be the right person to ping about twitter missing rel=me on mobile
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# tantek !tell adactio yes https://adactio.com/notes/9903 - kevinmarks replied to it here http://known.kevinmarks.com/2015/we-have-one-in-san-francisco-tonight and webmentioned from Known, from mention-tech, and the form on your permalink. comment didn't show up.
# kevinmarks known wasn't sending webmentions
# kevinmarks benwerd just fixed that
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# gRegorLove Is that documented or did you guess enough, aaronpk? :)
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# gRegorLove User-Agent: Gimme the desktop version
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# snarfed kylewm++ for woodwind getting demoed in social wg mtg! http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-12-02#t1449084306821
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# kevinmarks demo would ahve been better if the webmentions got sent automatically
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# kevinmarks known.kevinmarks.com had a cUrl bug
# kevinmarks benwerd has fixed it now
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@kylewmahan @meyerweb ha, this tweet helped us debug https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth.com/issues/108 (twitter.com/_/status/672159979466461184)
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# kevinmarks it's TWiG time soon
# kevinmarks AMP is on topic again
# kevinmarks what should I ask Gingras of Google about it?
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# kevinmarks AMP questions for Gingras?
# Loqi benwerd: shaunguice left you a message on 11/19 at 12:30am: http://www.durovis.com/opendive.html lenses ordered. next steps: 3d print, assemble, view vr content published in browser http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-19/line/1447921811053
# Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message on 11/29 at 12:00pm: really hope you can make it to IndieWebCampSF - could you add yourself to the IWC SF guest list! https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/SF/Guest_List ? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-29/line/1448827232378
# Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message on 11/29 at 1:26pm: Go get your IndieWebCamp SF ticket from Eventbrite! http://indiewebcamp.eventbrite.com/ http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-11-29/line/1448832412033
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# kylewm benwerd: I haven't done it in a couple months, but the last youtube link i shared to facebook worked normally https://kylewm.com/2015/09/nostalgia-attack-very-specifically-remember-hearing
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# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "expiring" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/108D
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "expired" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/108E
# tantek expired is [[expiring content]]
# 
loqi.me created /expired (+29) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-12-02/line/1449096800066 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
# tantek expiring is [[expiring content]]
# loqi.me created /expiring (+29) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-12-02/line/1449096793274 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
# kevinmarks we can redo the webmention demo in a way that works
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