#indiewebcamp 2016-05-31

2016-05-31 UTC
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@w3c This week: W3Cx, Javascript API, Webmention, Blockchain workshop, IoT, Jeff Jaffe CSAIL Alliance, TTML, Data Shari… http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-w3c-digest/2016AprJun/0008.html (twitter.com/_/status/737436281265893376)
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@danbri RT @w3c This week: W3Cx, Javascript API, Webmention, Blockchain workshop, IoT, Jeff Jaffe CSAIL Alliance, TTML, Data Shari… http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-w3c-digest/2016AprJun/0008.html (twitter.com/_/status/737437084898578433)
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@dbarrera RT @w3c This week: W3Cx, Javascript API, Webmention, Blockchain workshop, IoT, Jeff Jaffe CSAIL Alliance, TTML, Data Shari… http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-w3c-digest/2016AprJun/0008.html (twitter.com/_/status/737437147779727360)
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ben_thatmustbeme Hey all
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GWG Hi, Ben
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ben_thatmustbeme hows it going GWG?
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GWG Been cleaning my work area all weekend. Or since 2001, depending on your perspective. In a little while, back to the Indieweb plugin after some food.
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GWG I'm trying to make it reayd to deploy this week
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@OriginalMyCom RT @w3c This week: W3Cx, Javascript API, Webmention, Blockchain workshop, IoT, Jeff Jaffe CSAIL Alliance, TTML, Data Shari… http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-w3c-digest/2016AprJun/0008.html (twitter.com/_/status/737441884197523456)
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@elfpavlik RT @aaronpk Webmention is now a @W3C Candidate Recommendation! https://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/ Thanks to everyone for their contributions and feedback! (twitter.com/_/status/737455090781409281)
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ben_thatmustbeme GWG. Yeah we are in the middle of prepping to move, in fact we sign on the new place tomorrow
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: Your cleaning job is bigger than mine.
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ben_thatmustbeme And amid all that, I am trying to get mobilepub as far along as I can before iwc. Hoping someone can showcase it there for me
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: I have to make some modifications.
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Loqi [indieweb] "4 days til #IndieWeb Summit!
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ben_thatmustbeme Modifications? Oh you mean to the IndieWeb plugin?
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tantek Thanks Loqi ;)
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Loqi you're welcome
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@wilkieii RT @aaronpk Webmention is now a @W3C Candidate Recommendation! https://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/ Thanks to everyone for their contributions and feedback! (twitter.com/_/status/737456020214173696)
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@dissolve333 RT @aaronpk Webmention is now a @W3C Candidate Recommendation! https://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/ Thanks to everyone for their contributions and feedback! (twitter.com/_/status/737456126120333312)
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aaronpk omg 4 days?
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: I had all these changes I pushed to the WordPress Micropub plugin, but snarfed wanted unit tests, so I stopped. I haven't played with it since because unit tests scare me.
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snarfed.org edited /comments-presentation (+111) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ snarfed since 2013-01-15" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme Btw, anyone who feels so inclined, please try out mobilepub and report any and all issues
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GWG I am inclined
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ben_thatmustbeme Trying to get everything documented in github issues at least
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tantek whoa, snarfed were you backfeeding in 2013 January?!?
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tantek (didn't see any pingback/webmention based indieweb reply posts)
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tantek regardless, the comments on there are cross-site which is awesome. were they backfed from Bridgy (or some other mechanism) at the time? or backfilled later? https://snarfed.org/2013-01-15_healed_with_beard (has replies from G+, FB, Twitter)
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Loqi [Ryan Barrett] Healed, with beard
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snarfed tantek: bridgy's first launch was jan 2012, non-webmention :P webmention relaunch was 2013. https://brid.gy/about#history
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snarfed tantek: is /comments-presentation only for pure indie replies? sorry if so, didn't realize
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snarfed (but yeah my first backfeed was dec 2011 or jan 2012. can find examples.)
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tantek wait did bridgy launch with pingback?!/
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snarfed tantek: nah, original launch was wordpress api
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snarfed scratch my own itch :P
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tantek that is so cool
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snarfed still looking but earliest backfeed i've found so far is 2011-12-03. https://snarfed.org/2011-12-02_thoughts_on_writing_my_first_android_app#comment-1153466
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Loqi [Ryan Barrett] Thoughts on writing my first Android app
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tantek frankly it's actually more awesome that you have an example of good cross-site comments presentation WITHOUT pingback or webmention
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tantek just a great example of UX first, improving the plumbing second
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snarfed aww thanks!
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tantek seriously unexpected piece of amazing indieweb history / archeology being unearthed.
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tantek snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 224 karma
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tantek snarfed, was this your own work / parallel invention *before* you found this community? trying to remember when you showed up :)
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snarfed.org edited /backfeed (+107) "/* Ryan Barrett */ since dec 2011" (view diff)
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snarfed tantek: yup! worked on it for maybe 18 mo before i discovered IWC
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tantek clearly you were POSSEing since at least then, and yeah, /backfeed since then too
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snarfed yeah, i possed for a long time and backfed for a while before i knew what to call them
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snarfed "Ryan started working on Bridgy in the summer of 2011 and https://snarfed.org/2012-01-08_bridgy_launched on Jan. 8 2012. It only supported http://wordpress.org/, and wasn't very polished, so it never got much adoption.
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snarfed He launched the current version on Dec. 9, 2013. It's been more successful, thanks in large part to http://indiewebify.me/#send-webmentions and the inspiration of the http://indiewebcamp.com/why."
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Loqi [Ryan Barrett] Bridgy up and running
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snarfed https://brid.gy/about#history
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tantek before we even had terms for it!
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snarfed heh, definitely before i did
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snarfed 2002-2003ish
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snarfed not that that's special or early, lots of you were doing the same thing, it just took me a while to find you all :P
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tantek no wait what were you doing 2002-2003ish?!?
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snarfed posseing i think?
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snarfed it's on the wiki somewhere. finding...
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tantek POSSEing to *what*? that's before Twitter, FB, etc.
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snarfed sorry, you're right, that's my first posts
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snarfed i guess whenever i joined fb/tw/etc, i possed
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tantek if you were POSSEing to LJ or something I was going to be aghast
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snarfed knew i wanted it, just not what to call it, definitely not a term for it
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snarfed heh
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tantek sure, I started late 2010-01; we didn't propose POSSE the term til 2012
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tantek I actually really like discovering instances of parallel invention. It's one of those concept-validating things.
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snarfed yes!
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tantek https://twitter.com/snarfed_org says Joined 2010 January!
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snarfed kevin kelly has a great explanation of that
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tantek and https://twitter.com/schnarfed has Joined May 2010
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tantek do you remember which fo those you started POSSEing to? was it immediately when you joined?
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snarfed both fb and tw immediately, yeah
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snarfed with exceptions, but only exceptions
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tantek sure - presumably you set up something automatic?
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tantek do you remember when you joined FB?
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snarfed nah definitely manual
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snarfed (still manual!)
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tantek even with Bridgy Publish?!?
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snarfed :P manual til it hurts and i post rarely so it doesn't hurt
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snarfed joined fb 2004 or 2005ish, but didn't post until maybe 2009
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snarfed and hmm maybe there was an automated period! https://www.facebook.com/notes/ryan-barrett/yos-yahoo-open-strategy/74585695872
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snarfed vs https://snarfed.org/2008-12-16_yos_yahoo_open_strategy
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Loqi [Ryan Barrett] Y!OS: Yahoo Open Strategy
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snarfed i think i possed to a very early semiprivate silo, clubnexus, but that's a rathole that doesn't matter :P
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snarfed and i doubt it's archived
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snarfed that was 2002-2003 ish
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tantek whoa check out those linebreaks on that FB post!
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tantek sure that was POSSE not PESOS? FB post says 10:49am, your WP says 5:00 PM
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snarfed yup, sure. fb api lets you set the date
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tantek It's interesting, I suppose I didn't consider it POSSEing when I would post to blog posts to my site and then manually post the post name + link to my Twitter 2006-2009.
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tantek why would you backdate the POSSE copy before the original?
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snarfed got me. bad timezone handling? :P
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tantek lol
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snarfed possibly my first tweet: https://twitter.com/schnarfed/status/13221228274
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@schnarfed Dining room table shopping http://bit.ly/9KhgWY (twitter.com/_/status/13221228274)
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tantek with permashortlink! even if using a shortlinksilo ;)
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snarfed yup
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snarfed anyway, gotta run, but fun reminiscing
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snarfed wish i could be there this week!
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GWG snarfed: Me too
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tantek lol. just when you made a bunch more wiki /timeline documentation work for me ;)
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[kevinmarks] Was friendfeed the first pesatas?
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@indiewebcamp RT @benwerd IndieWeb Summit is soon! If you care about the open web, I'd love to see you there. http://2016.indieweb.org/ #indieweb #indieedtech #edtech (twitter.com/_/status/737486197111414784)
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@tomwiththeweath RT @benwerd IndieWeb Summit is soon! If you care about the open web, I'd love to see you there. http://2016.indieweb.org/ #indieweb #indieedtech #edtech (twitter.com/_/status/737492210292137984)
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miklb is back with a live WP install
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GWG Yay
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GWG Hmm..usually Loqi chimes in
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Loqi who, me?
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aaronpk just when you thought you had Loqi figured out
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Loqi who, me?
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miklb first thing, I downloaded the spec branch of webmention and downloaded sem linkback from GitHub, when I installed the IndieWeb plugin, it doesn't recognize them, even though they are active.
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miklb And I will agree with earlier conversations, seems odd that that plugin seems like it's just a shell to tell you to install 10 more plugins
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GWG miklb: I've been working on that. The next version will do rel-me and a few other things.
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miklb so what exactly does the plugin do besides direct users to install other plugins?
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GWG miklb: Right now, or in the future?
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GWG Right now, nothing.
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GWG In future, rel-me, some user profile extensions for h-card.
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miklb Right. So for now, it's not really needed to do anything.
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GWG miklb: It started as a bundling of the WordPress webmentions plugin and the Semantic Linkbacks plugin
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GWG But it wasn't being updated, so it switched to being a plugin installer.
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miklb nods
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GWG Then, because of the same comment you mentioned...it is going to handle rel-me and h-card.
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GWG And that functionality is mirrored in Syndication Links, which I'm removing that functionality from. The new Indieweb version is going to be better.
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miklb what kind of time frame are you looking at for those things? Seems you have quite the full plate and need some more WP dev help :-)
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GWG miklb: Bingo.
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GWG But trying for this week.
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miklb so now that I have a live site, what can I test or work on to help?
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miklb Also, do I need to edit the theme or use one that's mf2 compat?
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GWG miklb: That's another choice.
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GWG That is where the problem comes. How do you teach choice?
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miklb I guess the question is what is the goal and who is the target audience? A seasoned WP developer or someone new to WP && IndieWeb. If latter, then install a theme.
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GWG I'd like to have both
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GWG The original idea of having things in pieces was to pick and choose what you wanted.
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GWG But to some degree, that does add confusion.
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GWG So I'm working on an alternate idea.
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miklb a seasoned developer is going to know how to edit a theme. If they have something to work from, then kills 2 birds. That was my goal with my jekyll project. Simple enough for someone not familiar with Jekyll or IW, and a solid foundation for someone to be able to dissect
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GWG But what about the simple user?
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miklb that's my point. A mf2 theme for them, that a dev can dig into the code and use a roadmap to customize their own theme
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miklb I think I read mention that you were working on a mf2 2016 theme?
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GWG I worked on getting certain things removed from 2016 to make it mf2 compatible, but it is only mf.
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GWG We've thought about releasing a microformats 2 version of the standard themes.
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GWG As a group.
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miklb my recommendation would be to start with one strong theme, and then add after the rest of the pieces are in place.
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miklb and the user/dev community within IW grows
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GWG I've done better with plugins than themes.
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GWG Mostly because design isn't my strong point.
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miklb mine either. which is why I'd start with 2016
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miklb not that I think it's a great design, but that it's clean and not very opinionated
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GWG Right now, I have a few goals I want to accomplish.
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miklb Which brings me back to, what I can test or work on to help?
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GWG 1. Finish the Indieweb plugin upgrade and the Syndication Links upgrade, one requires the other because I'm deprecating something I need the new version of.
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GWG miklb: I'm still hoping pfefferle will merge the commits for Webmention and Semantic Linkbacks.
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GWG But, what do you want to work on?
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GWG I know what I want to work on.
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miklb well, tantek asked me to look through https://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started_on_WordPress
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GWG Yes
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miklb I find it confusing in general. I added a rel-me link, and passed step 1 of IndieWebify.Me, but am not sure what the next step is. I installed the webmention and semantic linkback plugins, but then I don't know what I'm supposed to do next. (approaching from a new user standpoint).
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miklb from someone who has a site that is IndieWeb, my impulse is to have a mf2 compatible theme
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GWG So, what would help that?
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miklb is reading through the page again to see if I missed something
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miklb GWG the bridgy publish plugin still requires a site to sign into bridgy, yes?
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miklb I mean, bridgy needs to know about your site in order to use the plugin?
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GWG Correct. It needs an upgrade
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miklb upgrade?
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GWG Well, it just sends a webmention to Bridgy Publish.
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GWG I need to go through all my plugins periodically.
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[kevinmarks] Yay. http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/and-mobilepub-works-in-aeroplane-mode-too
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[kevinmarks] Is there a way for mobilepub to accept a share intent?
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miklb I would suggest some kind of documentation that it requires registration with brid.gy One might think activating the plugin is all that is needed.
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GWG miklb, a good feature for future.
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miklb I guess I would need to set up a different Twitter account to test with this since my Twitter account links to miklb.com?
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GWG That is what I did.
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GWG Bridgy Publish was an afternoon project
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GWG Only released the initial version
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miklb Just thinking through what people would want to do. I know syndicating to Twitter and receiving webmentions (likes/retweets) of them was one goal for my personal site.
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GWG But for each plugin, you can file any issues.
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miklb will do
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GWG But if I get the Indieweb plugin improved, I will do an update on the Bridgy Publish plugin, then maybe fix Simple Location.
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miklb GWG post kinds are just post_meta? Did you ever think of making them CPT?
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GWG milkb,yes
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GWG But that would be much more complicated.
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GWG They mirror post Formats more.
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GWG But that is why it is a question of why the plugins all for everyone.
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miklb OK, things are falling into place as I see them. mf2 should be a high priority. Otherwise, things like bridgy publish won't work
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GWG I have had mixed luck there.
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miklb https://michaelbishop.me/2016/05/31/tweeting-from-wordpress/ failed with no h-entry
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GWG But I would agree with forking mf2
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GWG for 2016
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miklb do you have a repo started?
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GWG No. I was doing a mf2 fork of _s
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miklb ah, yes I do remember seeing you discuss that
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GWG It needs updating.
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miklb link?
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GWG https://github.com/dshanske/mf2_s
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@appelgriebsch RT @w3c This week: W3Cx, Javascript API, Webmention, Blockchain workshop, IoT, Jeff Jaffe CSAIL Alliance, TTML, Data Shari… http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-w3c-digest/2016AprJun/0008.html (twitter.com/_/status/737522345342992385)
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miklb GWG a shorter path might be to update mf2_s and then create a child theme for it that has some basic styling
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miklb I can help with that
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GWG milkb, I do regret some things I did there. But will see what I can do
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miklb keep working on what you are doing. I can work on the theme stuff if you want
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GWG milkb, look at how Semantic Linkbacks does reply/Like/etc.
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@JavascRRipt W3Cx, Javascript API, Webmention, Blockchain workshop, IoT, Jeff Jaffe CSAIL Alliance, TTML, Data Sharing on the W http://www.rightrelevance.com/search/articles/hero?article=5b6d0b532765b1d0c842ffd94d50db1a4e9d77eb&query=javascript&taccount=javascrript (twitter.com/_/status/737527781521645568)
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miklb is that the Post Properties section?
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@miklb_indieweb Hello world!: https://michaelbishop.me/?p=1 (twitter.com/_/status/737526392154296320)
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miklb oh jeez :-(
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miklb I didn't even think about that
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GWG miklb, that is Post Kinds. Semantic Linkbacks works on comments.
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GWG Bed for me though, work tomorrow.
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miklb yep, I'll be around.
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Loqi [indieweb] "A week or two ago [Kevin Marks][] pointed the IWC channel to a must-read talk called [Inessential Weirdness in Open Source][inessential] ..." https://kylewm.com/2016/05/a-week-or-two-ago-kevin-marks-pointed-the-iwc-channel
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Loqi [indieweb] "http://mashable.com/2016/05/31/facebook-end-of-websites/ Facebook's design head says you only use 7 apps and 4 are his. Design for his silo. Or join the #indieweb" by Kevin Marks http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/20160531facebook-end-of-websites-facebooks-design-head-says-you-only-use-7-apps
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@kevinmarks http://mashable.com/2016/05/31/facebook-end-of-websites/ Facebook's design head says you only use 7 apps and 4 are his. Design for his silo. Or join the #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/737529762982203392)
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@fdevillamil RT @kevinmarks http://mashable.com/2016/05/31/facebook-end-of-websites/ Facebook's design head says you only use 7 apps and 4 are his. Design for his silo. Or join the #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/737530034458501120)
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@torgo RT @kevinmarks http://mashable.com/2016/05/31/facebook-end-of-websites/ Facebook's design head says you only use 7 apps and 4 are his. Design for his silo. Or join the #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/737530193535893504)
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Loqi [indieweb] "torgo: RT @kevinmarks: https://t.co/GPbP9aOBCw Facebook's design head says you only use 7 apps and 4 are his. Design for his silo. Or join the #indieweb" by torgo http://twitter.com/torgo/status/737530193535893504
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@dgwbirch RT @kevinmarks http://mashable.com/2016/05/31/facebook-end-of-websites/ Facebook's design head says you only use 7 apps and 4 are his. Design for his silo. Or join the #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/737530563569950720)
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@DimitrisTzouris RT @kevinmarks http://mashable.com/2016/05/31/facebook-end-of-websites/ Facebook's design head says you only use 7 apps and 4 are his. Design for his silo. Or join the #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/737530718713061376)
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@djwesto RT @kevinmarks http://mashable.com/2016/05/31/facebook-end-of-websites/ Facebook's design head says you only use 7 apps and 4 are his. Design for his silo. Or join the #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/737532544539729920)
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kylewm Wtf. That was supposed to be a draft Loqi
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@TT_SemWeb W3Cx, Javascript API, Webmention, Blockchain workshop, IoT, Jeff Jaffe CSAIL Al… https://t.co/rpKtuq2nJp, see more http://tweetedtimes.com/topic/RWW/semantic-web?s=tnp (twitter.com/_/status/737536746464804864)
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@blognoon W3Cx, Javascript API, Webmention, Blockchain workshop, IoT, Jeff Jaffe CSAIL Al… https://t.co/iEeipiDGgi, see more http://tweetedtimes.com/v/3112?s=tnp (twitter.com/_/status/737537648613462018)
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Loqi [indieweb] "Repost of Kevin Marks's tweet" by Chris Aldrich http://stream.boffosocko.com/2016/repost-of-kevin-markss-tweet-734bed2a52
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@ChrisAldrich RT @kevinmarks http://mashable.com/2016/05/31/facebook-end-of-websites/ Facebook's design head says you only use 7 apps and 4 are his. Design for his silo. Or join the #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/737538181336170498)
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[kevinmarks] https://github.com/hueniverse/metaphor/blob/master/README.md
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tantek good post kylewm - lots to think about
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tantek here's a thought, rather than make a new channel for newcomers, how about the opposite, make this channel more and more newcome friendly, and instead, start shifting some of the dev-centric stuff to an "#indieweb-dev" channel etc.?
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tantek s/newcome/newcomer
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Loqi tantek meant to say: here's a thought, rather than make a new channel for newcomerrs, how about the opposite, make this channel more and more newcomer friendly, and instead, start shifting some of the dev-centric stuff to an "#indieweb-dev" channel etc.?
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@commonstyle RT @w3c This week: W3Cx, Javascript API, Webmention, Blockchain workshop, IoT, Jeff Jaffe CSAIL Alliance, TTML, Data Shari… http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-w3c-digest/2016AprJun/0008.html (twitter.com/_/status/737556505600217095)
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ben_thatmustbeme starts #indieweb-dev why not, I started #indiechat
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jkphl.is edited /Events (+627) "/* June */" (view diff)
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@nitot RT @kevinmarks http://mashable.com/2016/05/31/facebook-end-of-websites/ Facebook's design head says you only use 7 apps and 4 are his. Design for his silo. Or join the #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/737575342676672514)
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jkphl.is edited /Events (+0) "/* June */" (view diff)
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jkphl.is created /events/2016-06-08-homebrew-website-club (+2684) "Created page with "<div class="h-event vevent"> <img style="width:100%;height:18em;object-fit:cover;object-position:50% 50%" class="u-featured" src="http://assets.veganstraightedge.com/articles/201..."" (view diff)
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colintedford.com edited /Known (+4) "/* How to use Quill */ link" (view diff)
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@codeheroics RT @kevinmarks http://mashable.com/2016/05/31/facebook-end-of-websites/ Facebook's design head says you only use 7 apps and 4 are his. Design for his silo. Or join the #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/737583653572616192)
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petermolnar ^^^ this one's title is quite sad but it's hard to argue with; since search result are getting less and less accurate and more money oriented, I'm not surprised people are turning to social networks, which they think they can trust, since the likes are recommendations from friends - at least that is what they believe.
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@jkphl Next Homebrew Website Club Nürnberg on June 8th, 17:30 @tollwerk. Just drop by! https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-06-08-homebrew-website-club #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/737584609089585156)
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@RikMende RT @kevinmarks http://mashable.com/2016/05/31/facebook-end-of-websites/ Facebook's design head says you only use 7 apps and 4 are his. Design for his silo. Or join the #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/737586889968885760)
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@alan_zimm RT @kevinmarks http://mashable.com/2016/05/31/facebook-end-of-websites/ Facebook's design head says you only use 7 apps and 4 are his. Design for his silo. Or join the #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/737592962360565760)
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@remixtures RT @kevinmarks http://mashable.com/2016/05/31/facebook-end-of-websites/ Facebook's design head says you only use 7 apps and 4 are his. Design for his silo. Or join the #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/737593560040538118)
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@dawnahukanna RT @w3c This week: W3Cx, Javascript API, Webmention, Blockchain workshop, IoT, Jeff Jaffe CSAIL Alliance, TTML, Data Shari… http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-w3c-digest/2016AprJun/0008.html (twitter.com/_/status/737596535500771328)
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Loqi [indieweb] "Just installed Review plugin for @withknown, it seems really nice - will start to use it to review some products, books, movies #indieweb" by Rick Mendes https://www.rmendes.net/2016/just-installed-review-plugin-for-withknown-it-seems-really-nice
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cweiske rMdes, you should link the review plugin https://github.com/cleverdevil/Known-Reviews
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Loqi cweiske: tantek left you a message on 5/28 at 6:33am: what is digikam? (gps correlator?) It looks like we don't have a page for "digikam" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10MJ http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-28/line/1464442408283
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cweiske.de created /digikam (+236) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-28/line/1464442361030" (view diff)
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cweiske what is digikam?
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Loqi https://indiewebcamp.com/digikam
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cweiske.de edited /digikam (+0) (view diff)
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cweiske what is digikam?
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Loqi digikam is a photo management application with many plugins https://indiewebcamp.com/digikam
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cweiske.de edited /digikam (+4) (view diff)
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rMdes cweiske, ok I will add to the post, maybe I'll review the review plugin with the review plugin :)
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cweiske :)
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@QwaOsgood RT @w3c This week: W3Cx, Javascript API, Webmention, Blockchain workshop, IoT, Jeff Jaffe CSAIL Alliance, TTML, Data Shari… http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-w3c-digest/2016AprJun/0008.html (twitter.com/_/status/737602715707015168)
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petermolnar rMdes that could be an additional definition of recursive :)
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rMdes :)
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ben_thatmustbeme Hello all
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cweiske hello ben
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ben_thatmustbeme How is everyone today?
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ben_thatmustbeme And what are you working on?
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cweiske non-indieweb; i'm building a owncloud-contacts-to-ldap sync script that is able to merge my wife's contacts and my own, but only syncs those contacts on my phone which are tagged with my name
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ben_thatmustbeme Cool
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ben_thatmustbeme I'm finally going through and updating the libraries on my site. I am using some very old versions
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rMdes i'm trying to understand what this plugin can do/not do : https://github.com/kylewm/KnownIndieSyndicate and its purpose when already on a Known site
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cweiske I guess it sends webmentions to non-linked sites like indienews for every published post
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rMdes hmm so it's like subscribing to a RSS feed but in this case the syndication heppens through webmentions ?
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cweiske indienews only displays post that you send webmentions of to them
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ben_thatmustbeme Huh cool. Didn't realize Kyle had added syndication via micropub
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ben_thatmustbeme kylewm++
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Loqi kylewm has 332 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme It basically is a plugin for syndicating to anything else you want. So if my wife and I each have sites, we could syndicate to each other's sites. Or maybe I have a site that is just a limited set of my posts, etc
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@pnkfelix RT @kevinmarks http://mashable.com/2016/05/31/facebook-end-of-websites/ Facebook's design head says you only use 7 apps and 4 are his. Design for his silo. Or join the #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/737607870263398400)
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ben_thatmustbeme S/anything else/any other micropub enabled site/
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rMdes does it mean i could subscribe to other sites with my Known site ?
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cweiske no. you can publish/copy your own posts to other sites that support micropub
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rMdes ok
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rMdes ok I get it, so If I wanted to let's say push my images to a specific site I could..my use case would be, 2 blogs hosted by 2 parents, but since we have a kid in common we could syndicate our kids pictures to another blog..and have it all in one spot
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cweiske yes
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rMdes written in my poor english but i think i got it :)
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ben_thatmustbeme Poor English is the language of the internet 😜
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cweiske see https://simple.wikipedia.org/
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cweiske Zero is a special number.[1] If there are zero things, there are no things at all. There are none. For example, if John has zero hats, that means he does not have a hat at all.
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rMdes lol
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ben_thatmustbeme Haha
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Loqi rofl
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@TheWAnswer RT @w3c This week: W3Cx, Javascript API, Webmention, Blockchain workshop, IoT, Jeff Jaffe CSAIL Alliance, TTML, Data Shari… http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-w3c-digest/2016AprJun/0008.html (twitter.com/_/status/737614558009790464)
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Loqi [indieweb] "Facebook's director of product design on why websites may be a dying business" http://mashable.com/2016/05/31/facebook-end-of-websites/
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Loqi [indieweb] "Why we built Known" by Ben Werdmuller http://stream.withknown.com/2015/why-we-built-known
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Loqi [indieweb] "A short note about web standards from your friends at Known" by Ben Werdmuller http://stream.withknown.com/2015/a-short-note-about-web-standards-from-your-friends-at
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Loqi [indieweb] "Self-hosted Known 0.8.5 has left the building - with better indieweb, micropub and AMP support." by Ben Werdmuller http://stream.withknown.com/2015/self-hosted-known-085-has-left-the-building---with-better
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Loqi [indieweb] "#indieweb principles are the best thing to implement for personal use of the web that are logical steps in a #postSnowden world. @snowden" by Rick Mendes https://www.rmendes.net/2016/indieweb-principles-are-the-best-thing-to-implement-for-personal
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@RikMende #indieweb principles are the best thing to implement for personal use of the web that are logical steps in a… https://www.rmendes.net/2016/indieweb-principles-are-the-best-thing-to-implement-for-personal (twitter.com/_/status/737629992830406657)
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@linux_everyday https://indieauth.com - Sign in with your domain name (using the rel-me-auth http://microformats.org/wiki/relmeauth protocol. #linux_everyday (twitter.com/_/status/737641589565165568)
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ben_thatmustbeme btw, aaronpk, i have been going through and finally updating all my client libs, but there were a few PRs that I would need to be live first before i can fully update.
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ben_thatmustbeme php-comments and php-mf2-shim i believe were the ones i updated this morning
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Pierre-O @ben_thatmustbeme ok left the other room
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ben_thatmustbeme thanks Pierre-O
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Pierre-O But actually it was really difficult for me at the beginning to understand why the indieweb mouvement didn't have a proper website
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Pierre-O and it took me a while to understand the camp was actually the website
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ben_thatmustbeme just waiting on a few more, i'll let you know when it gets done
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cweiske Pierre-O, I had the same problem
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ben_thatmustbeme ahh, hmm, wonder if that domain is owned
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[kevinmarks] Indieweb.org redirects to the wiki
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tantek that's good right?
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ben_thatmustbeme as does indieweb.camp
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cweiske but this does not solve the issue that newbies do not know that indiewebcamp.com is the "main page for the indieweb"
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cweiske because the "camp" in the name suggests a conference
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cweiske not a permanent website
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Pierre-O @cweiske yes exactly, I remember I had to come 3 times to really join the mouvement
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ben_thatmustbeme hmm, very good input. I wonder if we had just a 'what is the indieweb' type of page on one of those domains
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ben_thatmustbeme i know tantek and aaronpk went back and forth at one point about this and it being another page to maintain
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tantek cweiske: because it started with a conference :)
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tantek and then we just kept adding to it incrementally and here we are
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tantek literally indiewebcamp.com was the home page for the first IndieWebCamp in 2011 in Portland
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Pierre-O understand the history, but I think for newcomers (like I was) it is confusing
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cweiske +1
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petermolnar it depends: if one of the pivotal points are the indie web summits/camps/gatherings, the name is fine
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petermolnar if you want to transition away from that, the camp needs to go
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tantek in-person meetings have definitely been a major part of the community and why it has grown the culture it has
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tantek it's made it much more human / friendly / respectful / welcoming than your average online open source / open standards community
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tantek helps emphasize the human-centric values
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ben_thatmustbeme the issue is you can't get started in new locations very easily when its too focused on attending camps. I think thats the point
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ben_thatmustbeme "I'm in rural XYZ, they'll never have one here"
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cweiske no, the issue is that I want to learn about the indie web, but only get a website about a specific camp
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cweiske a specific conference
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cweiske not something general
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cweiske you'll have that problem until you realize that this one conference site is the general information centre
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tantek still not sure I understand the problem
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tantek you google for indieweb, first result indiewebcamp.com
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tantek and the search description is a definition
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tantek "The IndieWeb is a people-focused alternative to the ' corporate web'. ... By joining the IndieWeb, your content stays yours and in your control."
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cweiske yes. and then you ditch that because you don't want information about that conference, but general information about the indieweb
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tantek next is /Why, then Getting Started, then indiewebify.me then Wikipedia
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tantek we have 4 results before wikipedia, that's perfectly fine
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Loqi [indieweb] "Bridging the IndieWeb Generation Gap" https://kylewm.com/2016/05/bridging-the-indieweb-generation-gap
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kylewm ^same post I'd accidentally published instead of saved as a draft last night :p
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rMdes in short Indieweb could have a nice one-scroll page on a similar domain (without camp) that could be the go-point to get visitors to actually watch or read a few things that allow them to directly understand the point
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rMdes this website could even aggregate some more information form other sites, without having to be a site that someone need to manualy update once the front-showcase site is done
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tantek rMdes do you have any data that show such "one-scroll page" sites actually build a sustainable community?
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tantek I mean, e.g. show me a few examples
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cweiske my prediction is that this discussion will end without any notable results
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tantek I know they look pretty and all, but I have an alternative hypothesis - which is that such "one-scroll page" sites are primarily marketing hype, get attention in the short term (6-12 months) and then crash / evaporate when the kind of people that pay attention to such things move onto the next flashy marketingy thing
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tantek cweiske: yup, no results without evidence is correct
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rMdes I'm on the boat that find wiki's very serious, unatractive, sometimes even ugly, too geeky for way too many non-tech people. I agree that the indieweb community in terms of communication, image, could have a sexy website that would make people directly understand the key concepts, with exmaples of users, examples of use caes, etc...it does need to be a one scroll-page, but in short it needs to be inviting, charming, sexy, and
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rMdes make people stay on it because the moment they arrive on the site, they have this feeling that maybe the IndieWeb idea is the one they have been waiting for
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ben_thatmustbeme cweiske, rMdes, what about the landing page on indiewebcamp.com through you off though? so is it just the url? or is it just too much focus on in-person meet-ups on that main page?
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cweiske the URL
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tantek like I said, counter examples welcome
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cweiske and the big banner on top
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tantek otherwise, it's all armchair marketing talk, to be blunt
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ben_thatmustbeme in other words, if the main page were trimmed to just the ' What is the IndieWeb? ' for example
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cweiske IndieWeb Summit: June 4, 2016! RSVP
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Loqi The indieweb is about owning your domain and using it as your primary identity, to publish on your own site (optionally syndicate elsewhere), and ownyourdata https://indiewebcamp.com/indieweb
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tantek such sexy websites are ephemeral and do not build community
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cweiske the first thing you see when arriving at the wiki is the banner about the next conference
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: but i think they are giving you perfect user studies that say we DO have a problem.
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cweiske which increases the thought that it is all about that conference
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tantek rMdes - yes, wikis are serious, which is why Wikipedia is so sustainable and growing, and other "sexy" websites are nowhere close (many tried and died)
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aaronpk this discussion is timely
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: not really interested in a discussion of "switch to X! it will be better!" when there are no real world examples of X being better
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tantek there are issues and problems with Wikipedia too
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aaronpk i suggest anyone interested in creating this "one-page" landing page for the community start documenting why it's a good idea, and maybe even start writing up content
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tantek yet it still succeeds and keeps growing
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tantek so once again, I reject calls for theoretical X
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cweiske tantek, nobody says that the wiki is a bad idea
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tantek cweiske: not saying that
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tantek cweiske: I am saying no one has any evidence of any better ideas
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cweiske the issue is that the domain name irritates newcomers
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rMdes i dont have counter examples, tantek so maybe you're completely right and this opinion of mine is just lame, but i still think that the landing page could be more open and inviting to non-tech people
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tantek just handwaving
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tantek rMdes: I'm with you on your conclusion
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aaronpk one of my goals with 2016.indieweb.org was to make a friendlier page that actually looks like an event page
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tantek that's a process of continuous improvement we can continue iterating on
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tantek just not the "sexy single page scroll website" distraction please
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tantek zero data that actually results in anything besides ephemeral marketing hype
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tantek which frankly, only does a community harm, because of the inevitable subsequent drop, disappointment, and abandonment
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rMdes tantek, my opinion regarding this is based on a few month, now maybe a year, trying to bring my friends on the indieweb wagon and it's hard !
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tantek rMdes yes it's hard
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tantek the website is not why it's hard
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rMdes when i send them to the wiki, it's like the conversation is done
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tantek the *tech* is still hard
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tantek we don't have one-click installs
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tantek we still don't have an easy way to onboard WordPress folks
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tantek etc.
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tantek no amount of sexy marketing or copy-editing will fix that
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tantek so you're focusing on the wrong thing if you want more people to actually *use* the indieweb
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rMdes i know, not what i'm asking..maybe i should think more about how to improve what we already have, maybe that's the way to go
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tantek using it itself is still too hard
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tantek cake > frosting
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tantek etc.
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tantek or worse, the *color* of the frosting
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tantek or what should we write with the frosting on the cake
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tantek that's the level of discussion this is
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ben_thatmustbeme thats more what i was getting at, possibly editing the front page to make it more welcoming
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: yup, and if there are UX and copyeditors here who are good that we can talk about it
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, i wasn't saying we should switch, but i was saying we should investigate as there is certainly a disconnect from what we want
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tantek but typically, devs doing that do a horrible job at it sorry to say
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rMdes i keep thinking the landing page, could get a specific design and content that would insist on how easy it is to join the wagon because there is a communitu, because there is know-how and that people are willing to help
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cweiske i'd like to see the top banner removed that points to the next camp. it's too visible for the front page
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tantek the latest homepage was a collaboration among UX experts and copy writers etc.
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cweiske no idea how to do this
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tantek so the bar is pretty high
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tantek rMdes it's not easy to join that's the problem
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tantek cweiske: no the top banner is a very deliberate design element *specifically* to encourage more in-person participation
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ben_thatmustbeme i honestly think it may be a case of just shortening the sections on the camps / meetups themselves
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tantek that's a key point of indiewebcamp - to encourage the in-person meetings
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ben_thatmustbeme the blocks on that are pretty large, and they will just continue to grow
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cweiske you really don't see the issue we faced when we tried to join
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: what page?
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cweiske pointless
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tantek that's not true of the home page
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tantek cweiske: point stands, go find counter examples of better sites and we can compare
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tantek nitpicking at details like that is not a productive methodology for improvement
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rMdes well...i'm no coder..i got it in a few month, at leas the core of it, then switched to change my habbits, not always consistent, but i think i'm a good exemple of someone not tech, not coder, that managed to switch from total silo to a lot more indieweb and during this transition and after i always got the help to reach another step; that's good !! very good !
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tantek nor is saying "pointless"
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ben_thatmustbeme how can i join the indieweb section has attending as #3
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cweiske tantek, for you it's a detail
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ben_thatmustbeme not #1
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tantek cweiske: no, for me it is a *valuable* way of encouraging people to meet in person
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tantek much more than a detail
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tantek rMdes: yes! it took a few months - and it's great you stuck with it!
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tantek but you get that that's too much to ask for most people right?
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tantek we need to make that process easier
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tantek which is a lot more than just copy-editing home page
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rMdes well since then I have put a bunch of journalist to use indieweb everyday, self hosted, and they even dont know they are "indieweb" but they use it
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Loqi [indieweb] "Bridging the IndieWeb Generation Gap" by Kyle Mahan https://medium.com/@kylewm/bridging-the-indieweb-generation-gap-7526c84addf4?source=rss-e968697bc462------2
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tantek rMdes that's amazing, how were you able to get them onboard?
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rMdes i'm going to put my project manager to use Known, she wants to gain time, she's sick of having to manage different silo, she wants a one button approach to get things done
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tantek kylewm re: "it could be discouraging for a new person" I'm going to go out on a limb and state (openly, which is the risky thing) that 1) only certain people will even find the antipatterns/database/jsdr/XMLfeeds stuff, and 2) the people that strongly respond negatively to such unconventional plumbing points (with data) are actually not the people you want in a user-centric community
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tantek something I (and KevinMarks at least) have learned is that for a human-centric community to thrive, you hae to actively *discourage* negative people
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rMdes well i talked about the problems of silo's, the problem of having an old website stuck in the middle-age, and silo networks full of activity, opinions, stuff, I say : why not change the workflow ? why not produce content on the web, and share to silo's ? they can't even belive this is possible, then it's just a matter of working with them to change habbits
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aaronpk for the record, disagreeing with the /database-antipattern page is not the same as "responding negatively". what tantek is talking about (i think) is the people who throw a fit about the page and rant about it on twitter.
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tantek exactly
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rMdes and well install the whole stuff and than make sure they can follow with all the aspects, it's tricky (letsencrypt, known upgrades etc..)
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tantek you really don't want such twitter-fight people in your community, any community
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tantek so those pages serve a very good purpose to discourage them
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tantek more on this subject
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tantek https://msujaws.wordpress.com/2011/01/25/protecting-your-open-source-project-from-poisonous-people/
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tantek https://harthur.wordpress.com/2011/06/30/dealing-with-not-dealing-with-the-open-source-assholes/
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Loqi Protecting your open source project from poisonous people
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tantek https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q52kFL8zVoM
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tantek "How Open Source Projects Survive Poisonous People (And You Can Too)"
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tantek kylewm: because we (KevinMarks, myself, other admins) didn't respond quickly enough to discourage such negative / poisonous people, they ended up causing the vast majority of nice/productive people to leave the #microformats community in 2008
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rMdes the journalist wanted a one spot place, not in a silo, to blog about the current situation in France, strikes, etc...but he also wanted to push his content to silo's, so naturally Known was the perfect solution. this journalist is covering the situation in France and they actually manage to produce such great content that in the end they end up on the mass-media tv (without credit) but thanks to their website they can exist on
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rMdes the web without being in jail in a corporate silo that will (sometimes) hide or censor their content. the journalist also wanted good security and letsencrypt was the natural solution. in the end he is happy and doing his work like never before :)
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tantek.com edited /2016/Leaders (+138) "/* Session Ideas */ more good reading, kylewm's post, (for the "generations" session)" (view diff)
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tantek what is Getting Started with WordPress?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Getting Started with WordPress" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10MZ
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tantek huh
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tantek.com created /Getting_Started_with_WordPress (+42) "r" (view diff)
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tantek what is Getting Started with WordPress?
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Loqi By using a WordPress blog on your own domain, you are already part of the IndieWeb; here is how to get started with upgrading your IndieWeb support in WordPress https://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started_with_WordPress
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tantek what is Getting Started with Known?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Getting Started with Known" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10M_
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tantek ^^^ rMdes could you start that article with what you learned about onboarding that journalist?
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tantek always good to start such things based on a successful real world example!
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tantek and that way we can capture your good experience and hopefully replicate it
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tantek and maybe even generalize it beyond Known, to the community as a whole
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tantek but step 1, capture the specific good example!
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tantek (and use https://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started_on_WordPress as a good bar to meet or improve on)
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rMdes yes good idea, I won't link yet his website because he forgot to renew domain recently and lost it (so I will have to redo the work again) there is so much barriers yet to throw away it's crazy !
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tantek document those issues too!
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tantek those are real world and good to know and give heads-up to new people about
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tantek until we solve them
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Pierre-O My personal experience, somebody talked about IndieWeb, I searched for it, found the webiste, didn't understand what was this event, left it
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Pierre-O Then I met this person, he detailed what was the indieweb, and after an hour discussion, I understood, and I got the wow effect
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Pierre-O (I tried, with him, to start a local group in lisbon, we failed miserably)
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www.rmendes.net created /Posting_From_Mobile_Devices (+146) "Created page with "Great blog post here about Posting from Mobile devices http://stream.boffosocko.com/2016/sharing-from-the-indieweb-on-mobile-android-with-apps-and"" (view diff)
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Pierre-O And even today, I'm amazed by the content present on the wiki, and still share regularly articles
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Pierre-O but, I stopped talking about IndieWeb
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rMdes Pierre-O, I want to do this in Brussels after the summer
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Pierre-O like rMdes, my approach is the single place to share to silos
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Pierre-O and this, people understand
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rMdes maybe start a weekly meetup or something
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petermolnar rMdes feel free to put some content together you'd consider good for a landing page. if it's well constructed, it can replace the current front page; the aesthetics can be applied later
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tantek Pierre-O: really glad you found someone in person to discuss indieweb!
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tantek right now I agree that's the best way
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aaronpk Pierre-O: i'm really curious what was the part that got you to the "wow" moment
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tantek hence the emphasis on meetups and camps
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aaronpk and maybe there's a way we can capture that and put it on the home page
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rMdes i'm talking about Known all the time, my friends think i'm talking chinese, it's crazy
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tantek Pierre-O: now that you're here, add yourself to https://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people also!
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tantek rMdes is already on there :)
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tantek rMdes - would be great to capture all your "talking about Known all the time" on that "Getting Started with Known" page: https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10M_
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petermolnar tantek, aaronpk some of us have been doing our sites since the beginning of time, when the only option for hosting was to ftp some html up to various providers; we may not get the tone or the language that is required to board someone who had not seen that as all;
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aaronpk right, that's why i'm asking if we can write that down :)
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Pierre-O I was fascinated by decentralized social network since quiet some time, and the wow moment is when I realized that the web do it already (no need for extra work): rss + webmention. Plus the fact that IndieWeb offer a path to decentralisation with POSSE (no network effect)
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petermolnar I do agree we need a better landing page
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rMdes I agree its easier to explain indieweb principles person-to-person than anything else. by the way another friend of mine, also journalist is interested, but for him its totally chinese. it's mostly because I sold the idea in different steps that I manage to get them on board, if I put it all at once, they get lost...in fact people need time to reverse the logic, there is a whole generation of people that never knew the
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rMdes internet before silo's
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tantek petermolnar: "doing our sites since the beginning of time, when the only option for hosting was to ftp some html up to various providers" is like /Generations level 0
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petermolnar yep
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tantek to be clear, this is about reaching to Generations 2, 3, 4
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tantek that's the challenge
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rMdes tantek, i get a not found on this page
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tantek the "doing our sites since the beginning of time" will find us
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tantek rMdes: right! I asked you to start eh page
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tantek and that link should create it (assuming you're logged in)
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petermolnar when you go to indiewebcamp.com, there is no "Why?" which links to why. We have sentences, principles, etc., but nothing direct and "dump" enough
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rMdes wow ok, like I said earlier, editing wiki is new to me even if i know the web since 98
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rMdes i'm looged in
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tantek what is Getting Started with Known?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Getting Started with Known" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10Ma
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tantek ^^^ click that rMdes
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aaronpk WWW = a Wiki is the Web you can Write
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rMdes this time it's ok, look at the URL, not usre why
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tantek petermolnar: we used to link to "Why" in the sidebar
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tantek and cut back on the things there because there were too many
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aaronpk oh there is literally a "not found" error on the other url
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rMdes i need to learn some formatting otherwise my contributions are going to be ugly
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tantek whoa
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rMdes yes aaronpk
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tantek rMdes: don't worry about formatting!
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tantek just plain text with double line breaks between paragraphs is fine to start!
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tantek that's the best part about wiki-ing - you can focus on the piece you're passionate about
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tantek others will fix things up :)
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tantek (no need for you to even be bothered with approving / merging pull requests either ;) )
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aaronpk fixed. apparently it has always been broken if the URL has _
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tantek rMdes++ for finding and reporting that bug!
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Loqi rMdes has 3 karma
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rMdes wwwoo :) i got karma hehe
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tantek.com edited /Main_Page (+37) "/* Join the IndieWeb */ get started, or learn more why, per suggestion from petermolnar" (view diff)
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tantek petermolnar++ for pointing out that somehow we lost "why" completely from the homepage
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Loqi petermolnar has 21 karma
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tantek petermolnar: added here: https://indiewebcamp.com/#Join_the_IndieWeb take a look and see if that may have helped (at least the word "Why" is now findable on the page for anyone specifically looking for that)
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petermolnar that is enough for me :)
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petermolnar I think it's going to be good for others as well
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tantek great
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petermolnar rMdes here's one more page to read which might be useful for this situation: http://indiewebcamp.com/generations
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rMdes wow i'm not sure what generation I am
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rMdes i was a blogger once...when facebook didn't existed yet
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tantek ok who wants to write a nice warm reply to this one? https://twitter.com/ubiquill/status/713035418707431424
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@ubiquill @wavebeem a few years ago there were dozens of libraries for federated protocols. Pubsubhubbub, tent.io, etc (twitter.com/_/status/713035418707431424)
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tantek (read the thread)
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rMdes weird i find myself in the mix of the definition of generation 1 and 2
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tantek rMdes: that's why it's particularly awesome to have you here :)
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aaronpk oh she's from portland
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petermolnar I don't think a "maybe do more research before tweeting into the void" would be considered nice and warm so not me :)
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microblog.pierre-o.fr profile pierre-o created /User:Microblog.pierre-o.fr (+56) "first edit" (view diff)
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microblog.pierre-o.fr profile pierre-o edited /IRC_People (+59) "/* Nicknames */ adds pierre-o" (view diff)
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rMdes i think i have always avoided to become generation 1, not because i want, i never went to college or uni, i learned the internet, with my first computer, went from music production at home to putting my music online, before MP3 existed..back in the days...if it wasnt for the rise of the CMS, i think i would have moved to learn coding.
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@aaronpk @ubiquill We're still using them, and working on some new protocols too! Come to IndieWeb Summit this weekend? http://2016.indieweb.org (twitter.com/_/status/737666505718910977)
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tantek aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 145 karma
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tantek sometimes there is one gem in a Twitter thread: https://twitter.com/jkohlmann/status/729154221371756544
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@jkohlmann @profcarroll Point being, I'll bet that nothing decentralized will matter until it is consumable, usable via a high-quality user interface. (twitter.com/_/status/729154221371756544)
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loqi.me created /cash.me (+120) "prompted by petermolnar and dfn added by aaronpk" (view diff)
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@indiewebcamp @wavebeem @ubiquill yes decentralization is hard! But many doing it now: http://indiewebcamp.com See @shevski’s @redecentralize too! ^@t (twitter.com/_/status/737670569265496068)
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aaronpk tantek: did you posse that from your site to the @indiewebcamp account?
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tantek no I just wrote it there
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tantek because I realized that with a private Twitter I can't reach out to new people on Twitter
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aaronpk *gasp* original content on twitter?
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tantek just for IndieWebCamp community stuff
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tantek happy to backpost :P
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aaronpk why not treat that account as another POSSE destination?
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tantek (in fact I was)
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tantek ok fine
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[kylewm] probably best if no one else replies to @ubiquill/@wavebeem right now to avoid seeming like dogpiling
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[kylewm] (I mention because I was about to and thought better of it)
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tantek kylewm: actually, I think the term you're looking for is sealioning
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tantek (and they're not going to see my private @-reply anyway since neither follows me, I assume)
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tantek (oops I should check)
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[kylewm] I think of sealioning as a deliberately antagonistic debate tactic
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[kylewm] dogpiling more like, hey we genuinely want to be helpful and you’re talking about stuff we’re excited about. and overwhelming them
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tantek pretty sure it applies to any weighing in
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tantek by someone not in the original conversation
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tantek in particular someone with more influence/privilege/followers etc.
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aaronpk http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/sea-lioning
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aaronpk "Sea-Lioning is an Internet slang term referring to intrusive attempts at engaging an unwilling debate opponent by feigning civility and incessantly requesting evidence to back up their claims."
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tantek oh it's worse than I suspected ok
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tantek I thought it was merely a reference to weight and barking
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tantek (loudness)
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[kylewm] I don’t see why you won’t have a calm rational debate about sealioning tantek
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tantek lol!
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[kylewm] :slightly_smiling_face:
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@OBPCSHOP RT @kevinmarks http://mashable.com/2016/05/31/facebook-end-of-websites/ Facebook's design head says you only use 7 apps and 4 are his. Design for his silo. Or join the #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/737674330356731905)
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miklb are there not discussion pages on the wiki?
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[kevinmarks] No, we have the discussions here
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[kevinmarks] Or document them inline in the wiki pages, in the pre-wikipedia way
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miklb OK. I started working through WordPress last night and had some initial thoughts, but nothing ready for "wiki"
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[kevinmarks] If there's a big debate, making a page for that debate makes more sense - we found that with microformats, where we have a structure of associated pages
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[kevinmarks] You could make a WordPress install notes page for example
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miklb higher level thoughts than install, but point taken
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[kevinmarks] Wiki isn't necessarily supposed to be a big NPOV essay on a notable topic, that's a Wikipedia trope
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[kylewm] yeah there are a handful of …-brainstorming pages like http://indiewebcamp.com/Micropub-brainstorming
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miklb has had good success in past with discussion pages ¯_(ツ)_/¯
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[kevinmarks] Right, that's an example of the pattern. On Microformats we have "brainstorming" "examples" "formats" http://microformats.org/wiki/process#Pages_to_create
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Loqi The microformats process
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[kevinmarks] You can make a WordPress-discussion page if you think that will be useful
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miklb for now I'll just gather my thoughts in a text file and then decide best way to incorporate/share my initial thoughts
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miklb while they are still fresh
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aaronparecki.com edited /events/2016-06-01-homebrew-website-club (-376) "no pdx this week, i need more time for indieweb summit prep" (view diff)
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sknebel miklb: you could also put it on your user page (or on a subpage of it) if you don't want to put it anywhere official but share it already
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miklb sknebel good idea
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cleverdevil snarfed: ping?
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snarfed cleverdevil: h!
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snarfed er hi
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cleverdevil :)
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cleverdevil wanted to pick your brain about an issue I'm having with instagram-atom.
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snarfed shoot
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cleverdevil I'll PM ya
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@wprincipiante El mes pasado te explicamos qué son y cómo funcionan en #WordPress los #trackbacks, #pingbacks y #webmentions http://wprincipiante.es/trackbacks-pingbacks-y-webmentions/ (twitter.com/_/status/737681289415950336)
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snarfed morning all!
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snarfed aaronpk how's instagram scraping looking? will oyg survive the apocalypse tomorrow? :P
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aaronpk snarfed: well yesterday I finished all the work to extract the data from instagram
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aaronpk next i need to create the polling infrastructure. not sure i'm gonna have time today tho :/
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snarfed you'd rather own all that than depend on superfeedr?
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aaronpk well when you described it as just a couple of different tiers that have different intervals, it made it sound much more manageable
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snarfed oh that's just the backoff. the actual polling infra itself is definitely substantial
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snarfed doable, obviously, just nontrivial
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snarfed i'd definitely encourage you to at least try superfeedr + either your own converter or granary
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snarfed but up to you!
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aaronpk using superfeedr means i have to figure out their subscription API, plus i'm not actually positive how effective it will be
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aaronpk the way superfeedr works with json feeds is they hash the feed and if the hash ever changes they send a notification
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aaronpk what I don't know is whether the JSON doc changes in ways other than when a new photo is added
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aaronpk for example the jpg URLs contain tokens, i don't know if those tokens are short-lived or not
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snarfed oh yeah, that's what i meant by + ...
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snarfed you want superfeedr to poll your own endpoint or granary's, so you can remove those parts. not IG pages directly.
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aaronpk hm true
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aaronpk well at this point i want to do whatever is quickest
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miklb.com edited /User:Miklb.com (+1308) (view diff)
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aaronpk i think the superfeedr subscription api is basically like PuSH, so i probably know how to use that already
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aaronpk and probably making a proxy page for the user feed would also come in handy with my own polling setup
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aaronpk so maybe i can start with superfeedr and see how that goes
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snarfed aaronpk: honestly quickest right now is maybe a cron job that polls everyone every hr or so and just fails fast on any error (since it'll retry in 1h)
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snarfed superfeedr probably isn't too much harder
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snarfed gl!
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aaronpk either way i have barely any time to figure it out!
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aaronpk also the good news is whatever i do it will be better than ownyourgram is right now, since right now the instagram push api is kinda broken
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snarfed eh don't stress too much. if oyg is off for a bit tomorrow, not too bad
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snarfed true!
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miklb OK, initial thoughts/observations on my user page
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miklb possibly stuff that's been discussed before.
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www.rmendes.net created /Getting_Started_with_Known (+4500) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-31/line/1464707309897" (view diff)
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rMdes tantek, I have written some thoughts, it's all related to what I talk when i talk indieweb to friends, colleagues, journo's or activists
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gRegorLove Good morning, indiewebcamp
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rMdes i'm pretty sure the page should be called something else, and maybe reserve that name for getting concretely started on Known
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rMdes I have to get out now, but leave me a msg i'll follow;
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@benwerd @nayafia If you can, you should also check out #indiewebcamp: http://2016.indieweb.org (twitter.com/_/status/737688344377729025)
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Loqi [indieweb] "IndieWeb Summit 2016 - Portland, Oregon" http://2016.indieweb.org/
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herestomwiththeweather.com created /User:Herestomwiththeweather.com (+446) "Created page with "= Tom Brown = My personal blog is https://herestomwiththeweather.com == Working on == == Indie web setup == I recently migrated my blog to use [https://github.com/miklb/jek..."" (view diff)
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@MSmartDeveloper RT @w3c This week: W3Cx, Javascript API, Webmention, Blockchain workshop, IoT, Jeff Jaffe CSAIL Alliance, TTML, Data Shari… http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-w3c-digest/2016AprJun/0008.html (twitter.com/_/status/737697411506831360)
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GWG Good afternoon
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Loqi [indieweb] "http://mashable.com/2016/05/31/facebook-end-of-websites/ Facebook's design head says you only use 7 apps and 4 are his. Design for his silo. Or join the #indieweb" by Kevin Marks http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/20160531facebook-end-of-websites-facebooks-design-head-says-you-only-use-7-apps
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@ChrisAldrich Is it just me or has @sciencemagazine quit showing/allowing comments on articles? Perhaps a response to http://stream.boffosocko.com/2016/indieweb-raison-detre-55-freedom-of-the-press-trumps-atrocious (twitter.com/_/status/737717155051900928)
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Loqi [indieweb] "Is it just me or has @sciencemagazine quit showing/allowing comments on articles? Perhaps a response to http://stream.boffosocko.com/2016/indieweb-raison-detre-55-freedom-of-the-press-trumps-atrocious" by Chris Aldrich http://stream.boffosocko.com/2016/is-it-just-me-or-has-sciencemagazine-quit-showingallowing-comments
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tbbrown hello, i signed up for indieweb summit (and signed into wiki). looking forward to attending!
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aaronpk ttbrown: welcome!
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tbbrown thanks!
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rMdes not going to be able to attend, but I hope there will be some livestream
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aaronpk yep! we'll livestream the intros and demos, and will have google hangouts for probably 2 of the session rooms
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rMdes great :)
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gRegorLove Got my IWC shirt. Looks great.
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aaronpk woohoo!
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aaronpk glad they are arriving in time!
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Loqi [indieweb] "Retweeted this tweet: Kevin Marks on Twitter: &#8220;https://t.co/GPbP9aOBCw Facebook&#8217;s design head says you only use 7 apps and 4 are his. Design for his silo. Or join the #indieweb&#8221;" by Scott Kingery http://techlifeweb.com/14092-2/
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Loqi [indieweb] "Retweeted this tweet: Kevin Marks on Twitter: &#8220;https://t.co/GPbP9aOBCw Facebook&#8217;s design head says you only use 7 apps and 4 are his. Design for his silo. Or join the #indieweb&#8221;" by Scott Kingery http://techlifeweb.com/14092-2/
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@TechLifeWeb RT @kevinmarks http://mashable.com/2016/05/31/facebook-end-of-websites/ Facebook's design head says you only use 7 apps and 4 are his. Design for his silo. Or join the #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/737729855219892225)
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aaronpk i keep going back and forth on whether to use superfeedr or just implement polling myself
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snarfed1 heh
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snarfed how does superfeedr compare to the dumbest simplest cron job for polling?
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aaronpk well i have to do the PubSubHubbub dance to activate superfeedr subscriptions https://documentation.superfeedr.com/subscribers.html#adding-feeds-with-pubsubhubbub
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Loqi Subscribers
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aaronpk then when i get the ping from superfeedr i have to still queue a job to process the feed outside the http request
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snarfed ...yeah...
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aaronpk in cron i could just do the work in the cron task itself...
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snarfed yup
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snarfed as long user growth stays manageable
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aaronpk so...maybe i'll do that for now, then make it fancier later
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snarfed sgtm
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aaronpk i only have 82 active users right now
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aaronpk active meaning people who have actually connected a micropub endpoint at some point
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tantek aaronpk: that makes sense
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tantek plus you'll gain insight in how to rebuild
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tantek which is valuable / worth sharing
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tantek by sharing that, we encourage multiple implementations, sites / servers
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tantek which scales much better (takes the load off any one in particular)
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bear in scaling always do whatever solves the problem now because you almost always have to solve it another way when you next have a scaling issue
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bear so doing a lot of "this could happen" coding just gets tossed
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tantek ^^^ extremely wise words
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bear the only way to battle legacy code is to not generate it
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tantek certainly the cheapest way, not to write it in the first place
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tantek I've been trying to do that with battling legacy features in specs
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tantek by cutting them before they ship
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tantek but that seems to be a minority opinion
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@whataboutmd RT @WuselDusel83 How To: Mehr Kommentare im Blog mit WebMentions. Comments von Facebook, Twitter & Co.… http://blog.kallerhoff.org/2016/05/30/wordpress-mehr-kommentare-blog-mit-webmentions/ https://twitter.com/WuselDusel83/status/737163115473702913/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/737745846696091648)
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tantek still has a bunch of snarfed tabs open to document key additions to /timeline
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aaronpk woohoo basic polling is implemented
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aaronpk this is only going to work for existing users when I launch this. new users will be out of luck for now.
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aaronpk good enough for tomorrow
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snarfed wow. this is interesting, and crazy. http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2016/05/30.html
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snarfed aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 146 karma
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snarfed1 aaronpk: for new oyg signup, i expect you're thinking indieauth + bidirectional rel-me check?
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snarfed1 (that's what i did for bridgy)
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aaronpk yep!
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aaronpk that part i've already implemented
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aaronpk you first sign in to set up your micropub endpoint, then it walks you through the bidirectional rel=me check to your instagram account
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tantek snarfed, heh, HyperDev, that's too closely named to HyperCard to be a coincidence - and at first blush it strikes me as a very similar development approach. Good for Joel.
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tantek also "full-*stack*"
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tantek lol: "Looks like we're over capacity. We're working hard to get back up. " ok looks like people like it
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tantek speaking of scaling
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snarfed1 heh
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tantek what is googletagmanager.com?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "googletagmanager.com" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10Mc
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snarfed1 hyperdev reminds me of many of bret victor's ideas. e.g. http://worrydream.com/#!/LearnableProgramming , http://worrydream.com/#!2/LadderOfAbstraction
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@jkphl @bkastl Personal domain — ace! Time for some #indieweb spice then! ;) (+ maybe switch/alias your email address as well?) (twitter.com/_/status/737749953204879361)
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[kevinmarks] I'm not sure about it saving js char by char and executing it.
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[kevinmarks] I assume it is closing brackets for you
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snarfed [kevinmarks]: he addresses lots of variations on the "this seems crazy" complaint in the post
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snarfed short answer: it does seem crazy, and it's definitely not perfect, but for small things it mostly turns out ok
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snarfed huh, aaronpk, if new oyg signup already works, why will polling only be for existing users?
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snarfed (just curious)
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tantek sounds like an apt description of indieweb too ;)
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tantek (that "short answer")
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snarfed heh
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aaronpk snarfed: i have to redo the frontend
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snarfed ah ok
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aaronpk what I want is after the authentication bit, it shows you your latest photo and prompts you to test posting it
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aaronpk providing feedback if there are errors
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aaronpk and only after that, enable the cron job
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snarfed good idea!
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aaronpk that's how it worked before, but wasn't necessarily obvious that's what it was doing
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aaronpk alright, launched cron job. it checks every hour. let's see how this goes.
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gRegorLove What is HyperDev?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "HyperDev" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10Md
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gRegorLove What is HyperCard?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "HyperCard" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10Me
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gRegorLove HyperDev is a tool to quickly code a web app without server setup and deployment steps http://hyperdev.com
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loqi.me created /HyperDev (+133) "prompted by gRegorLove https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-31/line/1464731137852 and dfn added by gRegorLove" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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@tomwiththeweath looking forward to indieweb summit in portland this weekend! http://2016.indieweb.org (twitter.com/_/status/737766034497638401)
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gRegorLove kylewm: Saw talk of OPML import and blogrolls with Woodwind. If you need an mf2 example to try, I have http://gregorlove.com/following/
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[kevinmarks] So just h-cards, no xfn for you
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[kevinmarks] Can you add that to /blogroll
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gRegorLove Hm, I thought I did. What page did I put that on...
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mejoe hi everyone!
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gRegorLove Hi mejoe
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mejoe i'm so glad to be coming to indieweb! i had so much fun at the web 1.0 conference in november of last year
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mejoe i couldn't resist returning
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aaronpk oh yeah! I forgot we're having indieweb summit at the same venue they had the web 1.0 conference at!
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gRegorLove Ah, it's on https://indiewebcamp.com/follower#IndieWeb_Examples KevinMarks. Some overlap between that page and /blogroll
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gregorlove.com edited /blogroll (+311) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ +me, sub-sections, note 404, 'since' placeholder" (view diff)
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gRegorLove !tell tommorris Do you know the (approximate) date you added /blogroll to your site? Could you update your entry on /blogroll#IndieWeb_Examples with that?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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gRegorLove !tell barnabywalters Do you still have a blogroll on your site somewhere? http://waterpigs.co.uk/contacts linked from /blogroll#IndieWeb_Examples is 404 currently
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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www.svenknebel.de edited /follower (+56) "/* See Also */ blogroll" (view diff)
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www.svenknebel.de edited /blogroll (+39) "add link to /follower" (view diff)
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mejoe http://tilde.town/~joe/rsvp.html
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Loqi RSVP yes
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mejoe here's my rsvp
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aaronpk mejoe++
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Loqi mejoe has 1 karma
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tantek mejoe++ for an epic RSVP
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Loqi mejoe has 2 karma
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mejoe thanks :)
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mejoe subject is 'stoning of st stephen' by rembrandt
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tantek now let's get you upgraded with author name and icon so you show up here a little better: http://2016.indieweb.org/##Indie+RSVPs
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Loqi IndieWeb Summit
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tantek hey aaronpk can we get some ID attrs on those heading elements?
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mejoe how do i do that tantek?
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tantek I'm glad you asked :)
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tantek so you have an h-entry in your mark up now right? and you have a nice p-rsvp
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tantek start with adding a p-author with your name
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aaronpk tantek: http://2016.indieweb.org/#rsvps
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Loqi IndieWeb Summit
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gRegorLove tantek: I think it's safe to remove this line of text on /blogroll#IndieWeb_Examples, right? "IndieWeb community members (have participated in at least one IndieWebCamp) with blogrolls:" I presume that's why Melvin's is listed "in the wild" even though he has a user page?
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tantek gRegorLove: yeah our practices with that have changed over time
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tantek I think the parenthetical can be dropped
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tantek but we should keep the community bit
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gRegorLove k
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tantek I think it makes a difference when you see examples and you think oh I can ask people in the channel about them
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gRegorLove So keep Melvin as "in the wild"?
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tantek I think we've varied that heading across pages
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tantek "Examples in the wild" comes from #microformats research pages
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tantek looks like we've used "Other Examples" as a bit of all catchall
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gRegorLove I think I like that better, or even just "IndieWeb Examples" and "Silo Examples" If it's on a personal site, even if they're not active in IRC, it's indieweb to me.
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gregorlove.com edited /blogroll (-49) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ dropped parenthetical" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /2016/Schedule (+15) "update pre-party venue, add link to Calagator" (view diff)
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tantek gRegorLove: I think the community distinction is helpful because it shows more likely to be "live" and sustainable examples - people that explicitly care about and participate in the community
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tantek the catch-all should suffice for any additional examples anyone wants to document
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Loqi [indieweb] "IndieWeb Summit Pre-Party" http://calagator.org/events/1250470372
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tantek here's a good example of Other Examples: https://indiewebcamp.com/custom_post_style#Other_Examples
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tantek mejoe: still there? did that bit about p-author make sense?
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mejoe nope, but i just used http://indiewebify.me to validate my h-card
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tantek wonders if a more complete /RSVP how to example would help
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tantek nice!
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aaronpk examples++
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Loqi examples has 3 karma
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tantek then if you put that on a p-author class name inside your h-entry that should work!
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tantek e.g. class="p-author h-card" ... etc.
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tantek.com edited /performance (+84) "more" (view diff)
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aaronpk is faced with an interesting dilemma about multiple online identities
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tantek aaronpk, you are not a cat
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aaronpk lol!
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ben_thatmustbeme Haha
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gRegorLove I thought everyone on the internet was a cat
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aaronpk until proven otherwise?
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