#indieweb 2016-09-30

2016-09-30 UTC
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aaronpk the only downside to splitting up my website into a bunch of external services is that now doing things like adding support for sending the "code" parameter with a webmention means I have to update a bunch of stuff downstream
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aaronpk but hey now Telegraph supports sending the parameters for private webmention. (and vouch!)
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aaronpk by "supports" i mean it passes through the parameters, doesn't actually do anything smart itself
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tantek aaronpk - is there a conformance class for such passthrough implementations of Webmention?
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aaronpk interesting
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Loqi Just generated the first draft of this week's newsletter! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2016-09-30.html I'll generate a draft again tomorrow, so please add to it before then! https://indieweb.org/this-week#How_to
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "Indie Web Camp Brighton 2016 - Adactio Journal" https://adactio.com/journal/11246 (from https://aaronparecki.com/2016/09/29/16/)
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tantek hey we need a photo for IWC Brighton!
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tantek for: https://indieweb.org/this-week/2016-09-30.html
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Loqi [indieweb] "This Week in the IndieWeb" on 2016-09-30 https://indieweb.org/this-week/2016-09-30.html
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gRegorLove aaronpk: Could exclude deleted pages from the newsletter: https://indieweb.org/directmessage
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aaronpk Oops yeah. That was a move
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GWG I'm trying to create an argument about trackbacks.
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KartikPrabhu "argument about"?
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KartikPrabhu for/against?
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GWG Well, WordPress has a field in their post UI where you specify what URLs you want to send trackbacks to.
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GWG It is that field I am contemplating.
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KartikPrabhu could you be more specific? contemplating doing what?
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GWG Well, there is an expensive query that someone was commenting on, searching for these trackback urls to send trackbacks to. And it got me thinking about why that is the preferred way to send them. Despite the fact I don't want to send them.
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GWG It is how to move forward.
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@kevinmarks @hunterwalk you know, we have #indieweb ways to get the twitter conversation back to your blog (twitter.com/_/status/781734636418322433)
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@kevinmarks @hunterwalk indieweb plugins on WordPress to enable webmentions, and brid.gy to connect twitter to them (twitter.com/_/status/781736390945935361)
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Zegnat Someone remind me: when is the weekly newsletter going out?
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gRegorLove Friday 2PM Pacific
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Zegnat 2 p.m. PDT should be 11 p.m. CEST. Good. That should give me time to finish the intro and demos pages for IWC Brighton before the email goes out.
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Loqi [indieweb] "“Outside the app.net sphere there are other things I'm really curious about in the "indie" social networking space.” https://lukasrosenstock.net/post/70475040 - adopting #indieweb standards could" by Kevin Marks on 2016-09-30 http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/outside-the-appnet-sphere-there-are-other-things-im-really
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@sl007 @martijnvdven @t @aaronpk Possible BER indiewebcamp in NOV: Tried to orga. - Rooms: Chance for c-base but gremium decides tomorrow: (1/2) (twitter.com/_/status/781795151215726593)
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pfefferle good morning #indieweb
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Zegnat ping sknebel: https://twitter.com/sl007/status/781795449128747009
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@sl007 @martijnvdven @t @aaronpk Anybody would need to show up 20.30h . ANY idea how to contact Sven or which indiewebpeople are in Berlin ? (2/2) (twitter.com/_/status/781795449128747009)
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@sl007 @sknebel indieweb BER : 6 begründete Absagen für Räume aber Chance c-base : Problem: Jm. vor Ort müsste morgen, 20.30 kurz v. Gremium reden (twitter.com/_/status/781810378258931712)
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tantek ooh, chance of another IndieWeb Berlin!
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tantek I think we have a wiki page for coordinating that
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tantek what is IndieWebCamp Berlin?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "IndieWebCamp Berlin" yet. Would you like to create it?
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[ignaciodenuevo] hate Loqi xD
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tantek hah
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tantek why?
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tantek what is Planning?
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Loqi The IndieWebCamp community is planning numerous upcoming events, including future IndieWebCamps, regular Homebrew Website Club meetups, talks, and other proposals — if you'd like to help, please contribute to this page! https://indieweb.org/Planning
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tantek there we go
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tantek IndieWebCamp Berlin is /Planning#Berlin
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Loqi ok
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tantek what is IndieWebCamp Berlin?
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Loqi The IndieWebCamp community is planning numerous upcoming events, including future IndieWebCamps, regular Homebrew Website Club meetups, talks, and other proposals — if you'd like to help, please contribute to this page! https://indieweb.org/IndieWebCamp_Berlin
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tantek !tell sknebel,sl007,Zegnat check out and add yourself and any details re: a possible IndieWebCamp Berlin to https://indieweb.org/Planning#Berlin (re: https://twitter.com/sl007/status/781795151215726593 )
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@sl007 @martijnvdven @t @aaronpk Possible BER indiewebcamp in NOV: Tried to orga. - Rooms: Chance for c-base but gremium decides tomorrow: (1/2) (twitter.com/_/status/781795151215726593)
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Zegnat tantek: Marc needed an organiser on location to help him out, Sebastian volunteered during IWC Brighton and I think Joschi put him in touch with Marc. So this is extremely early stages.
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Loqi Zegnat: tantek left you a message 14 minutes ago: check out and add yourself and any details re: a possible IndieWebCamp Berlin to https://indieweb.org/Planning#Berlin (re: https://twitter.com/sl007/status/781795151215726593 )
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tantek Zegnat - cool, just hoping to use the wiki for coordinating more than Twitter :)
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tantek I have to run (literally) but could someone (Zegnat?) add *this* photo https://www.flickr.com/photos/tollwerk/29914346995/in/photostream/ to the top of https://indieweb.org/2016/Brighton#Photos with the photosrcalt template? e.g. {{photosrcalt|http://example.com/pic.jpg|Photo of something awesome}} Thanks!
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Zegnat I don't know if tantek wants to replace the other photo, nor if he wanted the static or animated version to be added ...
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Zegnat Anyone want to wager a guess?
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[schmarty] My guess: replace any other photo on that page with the exact image that he linked (which looks to be static to me).
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[schmarty] (replace any other photo at the top of the page, i mean)
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Zegnat [schmarty], on that page he linked the first comment/note/whatever is the animated version.
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[schmarty] zegnat: i think he is trying to make sure a photo for the event shows up in This Week in IndieWeb
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Zegnat The photo that is there should work, I think animated photos had been tested already. But I’ll add the other one soon
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Zegnat tantek: “I don't know if tantek wants to replace the other photo, nor if he wanted the static or animated version to be added ...”
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tantek did say *add* *this* :)
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tantek and the photo already there *didn't* work (see Loqi preview of "This Week" above), because it's not marked up
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tantek the animated one in the comments of that Flickr link is hilarious though
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tantek hmm this one is better: https://www.flickr.com/photos/tollwerk/29830936741/
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Zegnat Yeah, that one doesn’t have the weird faces, probably better
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tantek ok added that one, I'll see if I can figure out how to best add the animated gif version of it. may have to upload
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Zegnat Do you clear the rights with Julie?
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@sdepolo How and why you should be taking part in the #IndieWeb. https://calumryan.com/blog/taking-part-in-the-indieweb/ (Great post by @calum_ryan whom I met recently) (twitter.com/_/status/781887756888858624)
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tantek Zegnat, exactly, just did
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Zegnat tantek++ for responsible rights management!
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Loqi tantek has 305 karma (203 in this channel)
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Zegnat Where can I see the This Week preview? I don’t see it here in the channel, but maybe I am looking for the wrong thing
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aaronpk it was posted last night https://indieweb.org/this-week/2016-09-30.html
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aaronpk i need a way to trigger Loqi to regenerate it on demand
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Zegnat Thanks aaronpk!
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tantek gives Loqi a trigger
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Loqi Thanks, tantek!
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tantek hey aaronpk do we have an upload size limit?
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Zegnat I was informed I have about 5 more hours before it goes out, in other words, about 5 more hours to find the time to write /2016/Brighton/Introductions and /2016/Brighton/Demos
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aaronpk hrm, not sure about the size
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aaronpk does twitter have an upload size limit on photos? that's probably the limiting factor
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tantek I guess we'll find out!
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tantek how's the multiphoto support though?
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aaronpk oh i was working on fixing that
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aaronpk let's see where the silo.pub issue left off
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aaronpk looks like silo.pub is updated to use new twitter char counting which is a start https://github.com/kylewm/silo.pub/issues/37
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aaronpk this would make my life easier but is not strictly necessary for this https://github.com/kylewm/silo.pub/issues/7
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Zegnat There was some char counting discussion going on over at https://github.com/twitter/twitter-text/issues/117 which seemed to suggest counting didn’t need to change at all, because the @mention and attachments should go in a property separate from text. Text can be counted the same way.
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GWG Howdy
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Zegnat has used twitter/twitter-text for tweet parsing and was always very happy with it
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Zegnat Hiya GWG
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GWG How goes, Zegnat?
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aaronpk Zegnat: the problem is when the helpers assume that URLs and photos will count against the limit, so they deduct that from the max length
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aaronpk basically now you have to remove the code that was specially added to account for photos in tweets
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aaronpk (which coincidentally I never got around to adding in Quill, so now Quill properly counts characters when a photo is included)
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@spampk This week in the #indieweb https://indieweb.org/this-week/2016-09-30.html (twitter.com/_/status/781895179053654016)
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aaronpk oh crap what
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aaronpk that is supposed to be private
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aaronpk ah i was testing the streaming api so i had to make it public, oops.
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Zegnat GWG: it goes well, how are things there?
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GWG pfefferle and I finally had a few minutes to chat this morning. Sorted out some plans.
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aaronpk oh tricky
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aaronpk if you upload a gif to twitter, you can't upload any other photos
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GWG So I have a PR to prepare for the WordPress Webmentions plugin
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tantek GWG, that's great! yes, saw your chat
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Zegnat aaronpk: maybe because it treats GIFs like video in their UI – with the play/pause mechanism etc – instead of making it part of an album?
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tantek aaronpk is it too late to include the Social Web WG event and photo as a "recent event"?
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tantek how far backwards does the "This Week" look?
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aaronpk tantek: it looks 7 days back
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tantek like 7 literal days like 7d*24h?
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GWG tantek, I intend to take advantage until pfefferle gets busy again.
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tantek aaronpk, for the start of the event or the end?
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aaronpk it takes the exact timestamp of 7d*24h ago, and if the event either starts or ends after that it's included
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aaronpk (if there is an end date, it uses the end date)
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tantek ok then, I'm going to try something
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tantek when it reads the URL of the event for details, does it only read from indieweb.org wiki URLs, or will it load an external (e.g. w3.org) url?
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aaronpk looks like it goes and fetches the event permalink to look for photos
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tantek then this will be a good test!
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aaronpk and summary
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tantek but presumably it does the "looks 7 days back" check on /events right? and then chooses to fetch the event permalink?
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aaronpk right
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aaronpk omg that's a 10mb gif
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aaronpk aaand found the twitter limit
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tantek hey blame julie :p
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tantek good stress test for our systems :D
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aaronpk "Image file size must be <= 5242880 bytes"
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tantek that deserves to be documented in /Twitter
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tantek also just requested a <5Mb gif
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aaronpk i'm resizing it
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tantek whoa ok
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@cairbreUK via .@alexscroxton .@maidsafe #safenetwork aims to get rid of #backup "bane of a CIO's life" https://t.co/wKwS3SBmlK #internet #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/781901428847673345)
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@sugruecomms via .@alexscroxton .@maidsafe #safenetwork aims to get rid of #backup "bane of a CIO's life" http://www.computerweekly.com/news/450304075/MaidSafe-secure-internet-concept-enters-testing-phase #internet #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/781901433075601410)
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aaronpk wow the wifi at this coffee shop is slow. uploading 3mb should not take this long :P
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aaronpk it worked!
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tantek and now for the second test
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tantek updated https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-09-22 with u-photos!
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Loqi Social Web WG Face to Face Meeting in Lisbon (F2F7) https://www.w3.org/wiki/images/c/c9/2016-09-23-socialwg-group-animated.gif
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tantek and /events links to it
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tantek so now This Week should pick it up
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tantek (with two photos)
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aaronpk k running it now
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aaronpk it worked!
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aaronpk now the question is, when there is more than 1 gif, which should it choose?
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aaronpk the most recent?
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tantek was just going to say that
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aaronpk and if there are no gifs, then the most recent 4 photos?
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tantek yea
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aaronpk documented https://indieweb.org/this-week-in-the-indieweb#What_photos_are_included_in_the_tweet
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tantek seems to have worked! https://indieweb.org/this-week/2016-09-30.html
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aaronpk yep! and the tweet works too (tested on a private account)
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tantek nice!
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tantek so most recent animated gif wins over most recent four photos? (or is that top photo of each of four most recent events?)
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Zegnat Those people on that escalator on the SWWG animated gif <3
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tantek Zegnat yeah that was an awesome unintended easter egg. and they're stairs
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aaronpk most recent animated gif wins. if there are no gifs, then the most recent 4 photos are included
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tantek so if the most recent event has 4 photos, then it wins over other events?
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aaronpk yeah
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tantek the IWC gif has a single "flash" frame it looks like
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aaronpk that's gonna be harder to select one photo from each event. i think i'll wait until that's a problem.
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Loqi [indieweb] "Repost of Stacey DePolo's tweet" by Chris Aldrich on 2016-09-30 http://stream.boffosocko.com/2016/repost-of-stacey-depolos-tweet-a511c0b171
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aaronpk alright that's enough of that
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aaronpk time to get back to private posts
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tantek good strategy
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aaronpk solid improvement in the newsletter and tweet tho
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tantek definitely. and first cross-site event info retrieval AFAIK
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sknebel good evening
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Loqi sknebel: tantek left you a message 4 hours, 42 minutes ago: check out and add yourself and any details re: a possible IndieWebCamp Berlin to https://indieweb.org/Planning#Berlin (re: https://twitter.com/sl007/status/781795151215726593 )
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Zegnat hiya sknebel
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Zegnat Did you revive your Twitter account today? :p
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sknebel well, it's not dead, but sebastian didn't figure out what it is. and I just came back in reach of any notifications anyways
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sknebel let's figure out what's going on there
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Zegnat Same for me, I only turn to Twitter when I am mentioned.
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tantek yeah I switched my Twitter back to public so I could post to public hashtags
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KevinMarks1 pronoun doucherie https://twitter.com/i/moments/781896003947417600
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Zegnat tantek, I was able to keep my Twitter private, because Sebastian is following me. I probably would not have replied at all if I had to go public.
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tantek sounds like typical college prankery, sorry to say. if there's any place such experimentation ought to be encouraged (for whatever reason), college is it (since it will inevitably cause discussions / greater awareness)
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tantek also kevinmarks, what has that to do with indieweb? tangential at best (unless one of those students put it in their h-card on their personal site - am I missing something?)
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Zegnat I have decided not to put pronouns in my h-card, because they are extremely hard to get right multilingual-wise
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tantek what is a personal pronoun?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "personal pronoun" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek what is a pronoun?
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Loqi A pronoun is a word that people often use to refer to other people or objects instead of their names; on the indieweb you can express which pronouns should be used to refer to you https://indieweb.org/Pronoun
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tantek Zegnat can you add that to an Issues section there ^^^
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tantek (it's a good issue to capture)
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Zegnat I shoule
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Zegnat s/shoule/should
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tantek and plus I can point W3C i18n folks at it and challenge them ;)
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Zegnat makes note
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Zegnat So many wiki-todo-things
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aaronpk multi-lingual pronouns, oh my
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tantek Zegnat, welcome to my world ?
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Zegnat aaronpk, yeah, even “they” does not translate as French has a masculine and a feminine word for “they”. Swedish has a (new) third-gender/gender-neutral pronoun “hen” (vs male “han” and female “hon”), but Dutch does not so how would I translate that one.
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Zegnat Whole bunch of headaches.
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tantek definitely worth wikifying
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Zegnat And then there are languages that do not make the distinction he/she at all, if I recall my old research correctly. So if I identify as “he”, I would identify as what in those languages?
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aaronpk the other challenge is when people actually do make up their own word for a pronoun that does not exist in their native language, what's the correct way to "translate" that into other languages? probably best to not modify it? how do you indicate that?
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tantek we'll just end up with universal pronouns for subject, object, indirectobject
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tantek nullifying all this preferred pronoun and/or gender identity stuff, since languages can't agree
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aaronpk eh I doubt it. there aren't enough sounds in common among all languages to have anything "universal"
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tantek universal conceptually, zey'll likely localize to per-language pronunciations
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aaronpk and spelling
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Zegnat aaronpk, oh yes, self made up pronouns are also a thing. And have been a thing for a long time, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spivak_pronoun
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tantek and chars
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Zegnat and then there is just educating the general public. E.g. there is no real reason for my gender and pronoun to match how you would think they should go together.
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Zegnat Although at that point I do start to wonder if you aren’t just messing with people
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KevinMarks1 twitter moments are a kind of collection post? https://twitter.com/i/moments/781914771150876672
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tantek KevinMarks: interesting - worth adding to /collection#Silo_Examples
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aaronpk oookay i think i got my site set up to send private webmentions now
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aaronpk interestingly I was able to skip a lot of the "hard" part of private post handling by limiting the scope of this to just being able to fetch the post given a webmention access token rather than building out the whole thing that lets people log in
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aaronpk right now there is still no concept of a "user" or "logging in" to my site, but I can now send a webmention and the recipient can do the token exchange and fetch the private page. I didn't need the concept of "users" in order to do that. ?
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Zegnat Oh. I just spotted that /2016/Brighton/Demos is for both Introduction demos and End-of-IWC demos?
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Zegnat Introductions were kinda short, and was mostly people literally introducing themselves. Any reason to split that off as demos?
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sknebel Zegnat: weren't intrudctions normally at /Introductions?
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sknebel I personally care a lot more about the demos at the ned
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Zegnat That is what I was thinking. For /Düsseldorf/Demos is just the end-of-IWC demos. But I just noted someone split up /Brighton/Demos in two timeslots, and /Brighton/Schedule links to the two subheaders separately.
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sknebel aaronpk: I think I'll finish at least a very basic receiver today
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tantek Introduction was just what adactio did at the beginning
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tantek intro demos is our way of doing introductions
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Zegnat Alright, I will put everything under demos then, tantek :)
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tantek literally the /Introduction page is just so organizers remember to say the things they're supposed to say
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tantek though I think we forgot to explicitly mention code of conduct
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Zegnat I don’t think we mentioned CoC, no.
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Zegnat I might update /Introductions with the things that adactio actually said later then, from the live stream. Focus on rewriting my IRC notes to /Demos now.
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tantek That would be good. I tried to do that a bit
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tantek re: Introduction
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Zegnat I would try to do captioning on the videos, if I didn’t really hate the sound of my own voice. For now, IRC notes will have to do
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aaronpk sknebel: awesome! i will try sending you one then!
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Zegnat is including a link to livestream on the Demos page this time around
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Zegnat Does anyone know Martin’s URL?
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Zegnat I really can’t make it out :(
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bear wouldn't it be in IRCPeople page?
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sknebel not an irc-person I think
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Zegnat I have no idea who Martin would be on IRC, if he ever has been here
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Zegnat And I can’t find him in participants for Brighton either
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sknebel Zegnat: adactio should have contact details at least, could shoot him an e-mail
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bear oops
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Zegnat https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W70wd56i0Bg&t=5m44s - “martin dot … dot org” is all I am hearing
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sknebel Zegnat: http://martin.tomes.org/
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bear sknebel++ nicely done
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Loqi sknebel has 11 karma (8 in this channel)
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Zegnat sknebel++ (you should be burned at a stake for witchcraft though)
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Loqi sknebel has 12 karma (9 in this channel)
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sknebel lol
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aaronpk well this is an interesting thought experiment. now that I send an auth code with private webmentions, i may want to explicitly *not* send a webmention for a URL in a private post, such as if i'm sending a message to someone about something else, I may not want that other party to be able to see the post
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sknebel huh
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sknebel true, they probably should only send to "in-reply-to"
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bear yes, anything that is a truly private post should default to not send webmentions
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aaronpk I might just chalk this up to "private webmention is not the same as private message" again
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sknebel or only to manually selected
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bear I like the idea of only sending outbound webmentions for those flagged as "in-reply-to"
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aaronpk i'm going to leave it alone for now, but will keep that in mind
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Zegnat bear, that was that I was planning to do. Private webmention + in-reply-to = private messaging, IMHO
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Zegnat Ugh. For video next to notes, next to writing, next to chat, I should really get a second screen.
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bear view the video on your phone?
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aaronpk heh i should add private webmention sending to webmention.rocks
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bear I kinda figured you would be doing that to test your changes
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aaronpk cause i'm not sure sending private webmentions to myself is really a good test
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bear for ^^ that ^^ reason :)
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Zegnat I was thinking of building a private webmention test endpoint. You would send a private webmention to it, and then it would send you back one with a u-reply-to to your original, possibly quoting a bit from the original one so you could see it was correctly sent.
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Zegnat But that is all the way on the bottom of my todo list
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Zegnat Is there a {{stub}} for page sections?
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Loqi Just generated this week's newsletter! You still have a few minutes to make changes, and I'll re-generate it 10 minutes before it gets sent out at 2pm Pacific time. https://indieweb.org/this-week/.html
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tantek good afternoon #indieweb!
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tantek hey Loqi - why the broken URL?
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tantek gives Loqi a stern look
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Loqi enjoys the stern look
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aaronpk oh dear
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aaronpk scrambles
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tantek I don't always break things, sometimes I just notice when they're broken.
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Loqi Just generated this week's newsletter! You still have a few minutes to make changes, and I'll re-generate it 10 minutes before it gets sent out at 2pm Pacific time. https://indieweb.org/this-week/2016-09-30.html
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Zegnat I am not going to get the Demo page done in time :(
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Zegnat too many distractions
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tantek Zegnat, perhaps ask aaronpk if he can delay the newsletter for you - how much more time do you need?
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Zegnat Too much. Just let it go out. We can do what we did for Düsseldorf: someone make an indienews post about the demos and then that will be picked up by the newsletter next week (I think?)
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Zegnat I always underestimate the number of notes I have taken
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tantek Zegnat would another hour make a difference?
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Zegnat No clue. Depends on distractions. An hour makes a huge difference, but I do not like making promises about how fast I can produce written content
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tantek Zegnat, no stub for page sections yet, it's in my non-written down to-dos. But if you find a good looking section-stub template on Wikipedia, let me know and I'll analyze it and make one for indieweb
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aaronpk i need like 15 more minutes to finish this writeup of sending private webmentions so i w ould happily delay the newsletter an hour
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Loqi Generated the final version of the newsletter! This will be sent out at 2pm Pacific time. https://indieweb.org/this-week/2016-09-30.html
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tantek aaronpk - do it
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tantek that's two good reasons
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aaronpk bumped to 3pm
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Zegnat Wow, sknebel, our notes on Sebastian Lasse’s indieauth protocol demo are pretty … messing
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Zegnat s/messing/messy
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Zegnat What is 3pm in CEST?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "3pm in CEST" yet. Would you like to create it?
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aaronpk 45 minutes from now
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Zegnat Alright
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Zegnat racing the clock :p
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aaronpk me too
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "First draft of Private Webmention sending" https://aaronparecki.com/2016/09/30/12/private-webmentions
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aaronpk \o/
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tantek woot!
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Loqi :D
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bear nice!
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Zegnat I am on aaronpk now. 4 people left after this. I should not become a journalist, I will never make my deadlines :p
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aaronpk another option for you... post what you have and add the rest after the email goes out!
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Zegnat I am guessing the /Demos page will already be in the email, as someone created it.
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Zegnat It will just not be filled
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Zegnat Maybe I will just save what I have written at the moment though
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aaronpk here's hoping silo.pub's new character counting is live
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aaronpk it worked!
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aaronpk being able to include a photo without counting against the char limit is great
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Loqi Generated the final version of the newsletter! This will be sent out at 2pm Pacific time. https://indieweb.org/this-week/2016-10-07.html
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aaronpk oh no hahaha
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Loqi nice
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aaronpk let's try that again
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aaronpk https://indieweb.org/this-week/2016-09-30.html
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Zegnat Alright, I have given people *something* to read on https://indieweb.org/2016/Brighton/Demos . I will probably finish tomorrow instead of pulling an all-nighter on this.
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Zegnat tantek, I don’t know any good stub-sign for subsections. I just wished there was one to add to the Intro-demos-subheading, as I am prioritising the hack-day-demos.
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aaronpk Zegnat++
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Loqi zegnat has 22 karma (20 in this channel)
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Zegnat !remind zegnat in 12 hours add photo of adactio’s idea list to /Demos
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Zegnat Argh, aaronpk, can you remind me of the right syntax again?
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aaronpk just "12 hours until"
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Zegnat 12 hours until zegnat should add photo of adactio’s idea list to /Demos
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Loqi I added a countdown scheduled for 2016-10-01 11:56am CEST (#5921)
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tantek Zegnat you still editing?
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aaronpk hah nice, notice what timezone Loqi reported that in?
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Zegnat No, I tapped out for a second to grab something to drink
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tantek and yes on prioritizing hack day demos
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tantek ok
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Zegnat Does it get my timezone from IRC-People?
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aaronpk :)
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Zegnat tantek, I might jump back in after refreshing myself a bit to finish up the hack day demos text. So I only have to do further clean-up tomorrow and can start on intro demos
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tantek adding myself briefly
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Zegnat I keep underestimating how much time it takes to make my IRC logs into nicely presentable informative text
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Zegnat should just take even better notes next time
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tantek got mine in!
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Zegnat Hmm, looking at my notes I was also planning to mention how this enables you to add Tweet IDs and other such postprocessing info.
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Zegnat But at least you are on the list now ;)
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tantek yeah I just braindumped
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tantek definitely feel free to rewrite it with what I actually said / showed
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Zegnat Will do.
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Zegnat Minus the links to the storage files ;)
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tantek thanks!
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@dougmckown Bill Gates should buy Twitter. And make it a public utility. #indieweb https://medium.com/we-progress-by-sharing-ideas/bill-gates-should-buy-twitter-and-make-it-a-public-utility-f1ddff93144c%23.8uqr2xxen (twitter.com/_/status/781979609009127424)
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@indiewebcamp This week in the #indieweb https://indieweb.org/this-week/2016-09-30.html https://twitter.com/indiewebcamp/status/781980707727904768/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/781980707727904768)
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npdoty aaronpk, thanks for sharing this draft of Private-Webmention https://indieweb.org/Private-Webmention
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Loqi npdoty: snarfed left you a message on 2016-07-11 at 8:07pm UTC: use invite code 'indieweb' for snippets.today
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Zegnat I am falling asleep at my keyboard. Will finish the demos page tomorrow. If I am not working on it in about 12 hours from now, someone come poke me with a stick
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aaronpk npdoty: yeah! i'm excited! want to try out implementing it too?
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npdoty thanks, Loqi, for always and only reminding me of things months later :)
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Zegnat Have a good night all!
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Loqi you're welcome, npdoty
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Loqi ciao
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npdoty I'm confused by the little mini-oauth dance
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aaronpk how so?
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aaronpk "mini-oauth" lol that's great
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aaronpk that's exactly what it is
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tantek what is mini-oauth?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "mini-oauth" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek (hey you knew that was coming)
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npdoty could the same functionality be accomplished with a `private_source` parameter, an unguessable/private link that gives the bearer access to the contents of `source`?
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tantek _--
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aaronpk npdoty: ah that was early on in our conversation in brighton. i should add that to the faq
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npdoty I'd rather not deal with exchanging codes for temporary tokens unless we're actually going to implement OAuth access for access control in general
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aaronpk well the tokens you issue don't have to be temporary
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npdoty I see it mentioned that that would be one way to implement this already with static sites
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aaronpk there are a few drawbacks to just using an unguessable URL
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aaronpk basically all the OAuth 2 arguments against using bearer tokens in the query string apply
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sknebel aaronpk: could you send me a private webmention? homepage WMs should work if you use HTTPS
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aaronpk query strings are typically logged, so leaky tokens are a problem
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aaronpk sknebel: okay give me a sec to create the post :) (I don't have micropub integration for this yet)
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npdoty sure, there are certainly potential security concerns in using private links, although I think risks are less when they're being used solely for server-to-server communication
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npdoty ... but they wouldn't require implementing as much of a new authentication protocol
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npdoty (my 2¢)
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aaronpk a slightly less dangerous version of what you're suggesting is to include a separate parameter in the webmention request that is the token directly, and then the post is fetched with that token in a header.
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npdoty my other question is about how private webmentions should be displayed by the recipient
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aaronpk yeah the display of this is TBD, similar to how the webmention spec doesn't actually suggest how to display webmentions
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npdoty should I or shouldn't I let visitors to my site know that you responded privately?
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npdoty yeah, I like the flexibility in general, but in this case, the recipient could potentially do harm to the sender if they don't agree on the expectations
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aaronpk i think that aspect will shake out by using new microformats properties
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aaronpk there are multiple reasons to send a private webmention for example, with different expectations of each
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npdoty ah, so the privacy would be determined within the contents of the source page?
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aaronpk a private webmention to your home page is more like a direct message, whereas a private webmention in reply to a post is more like a private comment
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npdoty in the long run, it would be cool if private comments you made, visible to a group of people, appear in context to that same group of people when they're authenticated and browsing my site
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aaronpk definitely
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aaronpk that kind of thing is hard, and requires a lot more thought, but i think this core is laying the foundation for things like that to develop
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KevinMarks Known already has a lot of the acl infrastructure for that
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aaronpk true! gotta get benwerd to look at this
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aaronpk sknebel: sent!
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npdoty aaronpk: it seems like maybe this does follow the OAuth 2 spec, just with slightly different terminology
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aaronpk that was the idea!
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aaronpk the goal was to get as close to the oauth 2 terminology actually
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npdoty that the sender is providing an Authorization Grant along with the notification
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npdoty but you don't want to use/cite OAuth 2 explicitly?
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aaronpk that tends to scare people :)
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npdoty a reasonable concern, but you can at least count me among the people who get scared by the possibility of inventing/implementing another authorization protocol
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aaronpk haha fair
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Loqi hehe
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aaronpk i would want to leave the explicit text and examples as is, but am happy to cite that as coming from OAuth 2
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aaronpk what I don't want to do is say "refer to OAuth 2 for how to do this"
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KevinMarks Especially as OAuth 2 is so tmtowtdi about things
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aaronpk yep
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aaronpk OAuth 2 is a good framework, mostly because there are a lot of people looking at it and basing things off of it. my goal was to use it as a framework and change as little as possible to do what we need for this.
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sknebel aaronpk: could I get another WM? ;) (token expired probably by now?)
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aaronpk i think i can re-send that one
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aaronpk yep done
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sknebel mh, okay, i need to implement token endpoint myself for testing if I invalidate the tokens all the time and then crash.
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sknebel or my request is malformed
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tantek yup, "refer to oauth2 for how to do this" should be a documented antipattern
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aaronpk sknebel: not sure I follow. want to take it to #indieweb-dev to debug?
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tantek does anyone post /read posts for things other than books? e.g. magazines / magazine articles, blog posts, essays, medium posts etc.?
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tantek is that interesting?
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tantek it's a kind of "consume" :P
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tantek looks at aaronpk and recent bookmarks discussions
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aaronpk i actually don't have any "consume" posts other than food.
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tantek also does anyone do "added this book to my list of things to read" type posts?
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tantek aaronpk, you used to say what you were watching / listening to
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aaronpk "read later" type things?
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tantek somewhere - maybe only a sidebar?
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aaronpk ah yeah but those weren't posts, just in the sidebar
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tantek but those were essentially showing the "latest" version of those types of posts
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tantek just like your eat / sleep etc. summary on your home page
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aaronpk true
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tantek shows the latest version of those posts
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tantek there's some similarity there
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tantek even if you weren't storing the "previous" watching / listening posts
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tantek because clearly you did deliberately edit the sidebar at some point in time to change it
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tantek that's kind of like a post of sorts
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aaronpk i was actually! when you looked at an old permalink of a post, the sidebar reflected what it looked like at the time that post was created
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tantek but just without a permalink for the change
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tantek oooh
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tantek like a blog post could show how well you slept the night before!
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aaronpk yeah! which is anothing thing I am trying to figure out how to do
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tantek as well as what you ate right before the blog post, what you were listening to at the time
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tantek would provide fascinating context
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aaronpk i thought i had written that up in a github issue but can't find it
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aaronpk but I did find this: https://github.com/aaronpk/p3k/issues/22#issue-23935479
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gRegorLove Good afternoon, indieweb
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gRegorLove tantek: I have some want-to-read posts, one mentioned on /read
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gRegorLove manually POSSE to Goodreads
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gRegorLove (for books. no magazines, articles, other examples you listed)
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tantek got it
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tantek also wondering if there's such an equivalent of want to listen to for podcasts / albums / songs
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tantek or "want to watch" for movies, tv shows etc.
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tantek I mean I have a "static" list: tantek.com/w/WatchFilms#MoviesIwanttosee
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tantek but now I'm wondering if I should write a post everytime I add to that list
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tantek and then write a "watched" or "seen" post when I remove something
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tantek speaking of which I need to update the list
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gRegorLove Want to watch could be interesting. I use Netflix for that currently.
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tantek what is watch?
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Loqi follow is a common button in silo UIs (like Twitter) that adds updates from that profile (typically a person) to the stream shown in an integrated reader, and sometimes creates a follow post either in the follower's stream ("… followed …" or "… is following …") thus visible to their followers, and/or in the notifications of the user being followed ("… followed you") https://indieweb.org/watch
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gRegorLove But owning that could be cool
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tantek wat
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gRegorLove Heh
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tantek yeah Netflix is a good silo example of "want to watch"
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gRegorLove reads logs
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tantek oh do we have an indie event for next week HWC?
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gRegorLove mini-oauth, heh
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tantek yeah I think that deserves a mini-me meme
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tantek you know all those memes that Loqi generates here?
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tantek wondering if they could go to tumblr.indieweb.org
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tantek ;)
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gRegorLove That would be fun
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gRegorLove re: multi-lingual pronouns, wouldn't the lang attribute work?
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tantek so is it every user's responsibility to specify their pronouns in every language?
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aaronpk that works to indicate which language your pronoun is in, but is not practical for having someone find the translations of their pronouns in every language
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tantek right
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gRegorLove Specify the pronoun in every language that you're planning to support on your page, at least. So presuming your page is multi-lingual, sure, why not?
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tantek also re: /read posts - sometimes I just skim an article and I explicitly note it as such in my personal (text file only) log
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tantek "skimmed: URL"
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tantek that kind of thing. like I see some value in noting that for myself but don't know why anyone else would care.
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tantek nor would I want to potentially insult the author by posting anything like that publicly. but I wouldn't claim to have "read" it either, so... ?