#indieweb 2017-10-11

2017-10-11 UTC
strugee, electronicmaji, awolf, snarfed, davidmead, cdchapman, marinin_, hs0ucy, tantek, eli_oat, marinin, wolftune, renem, [miklb], waynr, grantcodes, CherryPuffs, jeremycherfas, KartikPrabhu, [jeremycherfas], cweiske and nitot joined the channel
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jjuran What is livecoding?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "livecoding" yet. Would you like to create it?
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[miklb] like when someone does a live demo and is physically typing the code as they go?
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jjuran I was inquiring about a particular startup, whose drama is thankfully not documented here.
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[miklb] nods
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petermolnar is anyone aware of any API that autotags content, similarly to auto-tag suggestions for images from vision API or flickr
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petermolnar I don't mean keyword extraction
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sknebel hm... do Google/IBM Watson/... have stuff like that? they surely have NLP stuff, question is if you can get useful tags from their output, without having a model specific to your usecase
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petermolnar I don't know, that's why I'm looking
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[kevinmarks] Google has that, yes
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[kevinmarks] https://cloud.google.com/vision/
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j4y_funabashi morning all
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sknebel morning!
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sknebel [kevinmarks]: I think the question was for something like google vision api, but for text
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Zegnat Hellow
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petermolnar !tell tantek Zegnat after that guardian article I found myself questioning if I should fuel the attention thirstiness of people at all, as in: should we even 'like/bookmark/fav' in the silos or just save them - with a copy - on our site, if it's worthy?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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petermolnar Zegnat I realise you're here, but I was in the middle of the sentence :)
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Zegnat Just going to drop in sebsel’s post on the matter: https://seblog.nl/2017/10/09/9/bookmarks-and-likes . Sometimes likes are part of social discourse
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Loqi [Sebastiaan Andeweg] Thinking about bookmarks and likes on the IndieWeb
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petermolnar I know, and I mostly agree with sebsel's entry
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sknebel petermolnar: you'd need to use "," between nicks for !tell to multiple people anyways ;)
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petermolnar damn!
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petermolnar thanks
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petermolnar back on topic: but making ~likes in the silos, social discourse or not, is just adding to the problem, isn't it?
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petermolnar if you remember visitor counters, those remote images you added to your static geocities site, it's kind of the same thing
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Zegnat I don’t think so. Not if the like is used for actually communicating something. The like is just replacing me commenting “great job on that thing!”.
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petermolnar one could say that has been split into analytics and likes though
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Zegnat I have definitely seen likes being used as more of an “I read this and didn’t dislike it” marker, which isn’t communicating anything. Those might be bolstering the numbers problem you are describing.
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petermolnar that's the thing: I don't think I should do that, neither the ~like, nor the "good job"; both because too much appretiation is not good for anyone and inevitably leads to narcissism but also because when I poke that button I will distract the person from whatever they're doing
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petermolnar does it worth it?
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Zegnat That’s on every individual liker though
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Loqi [superfeedr] "IndieWeb" by Khürt Williams on 2017-10-11 https://tracking.feedpress.it/link/1771/7052728
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petermolnar I've heard people re-posting their stuff because it didn't get enough reactions within X minutes and therefore it will appear less and less
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petermolnar so I don't think I'm helping the problem by liking a thing
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sknebel interesting perspective
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Zegnat We’re talking two different targets here though, right? Me liking dinner cooked by a friend on Facebook, vs me liking a photo by someone trying to make it on Instagram?
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Zegnat The first is more likely to interpret my like in the social context, the latter wants it to drive their content.
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sknebel yes, there's definitively some weird overlap between a like that's almost a (very low-bandwidth) personal message and like as "tiny part of a arbitrary number signaling popularity". Silos add at least "like as bookmark" (I'm guilty of that on twitter as well) and "like as chance of retweet" (=e.g. twitter or Facebook showing something to my followers because I liked it)
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sknebel and I guess social signaling to third parties: "I liked $goodThing, I'm good too!" (or something like that)
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sknebel what is like?
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sknebel oh, I bet that's blacklisted
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sknebel What is likes?
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Loqi likes are sometimes part of the information about a post displayed on the post itself, sometimes in a post footer, like a total number like responses, icons of recent likers, or even a datetime ordered list of likes https://indieweb.org/likes
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petermolnar so I'm referring to https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/oct/05/smartphone-addiction-silicon-valley-dystopia - the problem is that a little while ago I came to the conclusion that I shouldn't silently bookmark things, stalker-style, and instead I should make an effort and either use the silo or actually posse the corresponding ~like action if I happen to bookmark something, because it matters to the content creators and sometimes,
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petermolnar if they depend on it, it's even an effect on their income
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petermolnar however, the other side of that, is if I do give in to the silo method, I'm fueling the greed and hunt for likes
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petermolnar the solution is most probably to identify where the like is an actual importance - income-wise, for example - and where it's an addiction, and use either proper reactions or stalker mode based on this
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petermolnar but this is extremely hard
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jeremycherfas I've read the above and some posts on the topic, and I really think it is incredibly hard both to have rules that would always apply and to decide each case on its merits. Iknow that if I have something to add (which makes it more of a reply or comment than a like) then I'll try to do it on my own site and POSSE.
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jeremycherfas But if I only want to say "well said," or "I agree" then I often take the easy option and do it in the silo.
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jeremycherfas To me, reposts are the really tricky ones. I usually do those in the silo too, even when I have something to add.
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sknebel I hadn't considered the economic aspect. generally thought that I probably should reduce use of likes to the personal-message situation and just do bookmarks (possibly not even public, still working on what I want there exactly) otherwise
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Zegnat The economic aspect is why I subscribe to youtubers even when I follow them in my feed reader.
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petermolnar yes, that is indeed an economic aspect
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sknebel and why you probably "should" like their videos. even though that's not something I personally would archive on my site
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petermolnar however, liking on FB is most usually not
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Zegnat I actually don’t like YouTube videos for the economic aspect, sknebel. But that is because I value when I actually like a thing. YouTube will also give you access to a playlist with everything you have liked.
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Zegnat So while I know some algorithms and stuff will help my favourite youtubers if I like their stuff, I still treat likes as a personal thing and not as e.g. an “upvote”
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sknebel upvote is a nice framing for it
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Zegnat (Maybe that’s the real difference here: liking (sentimental) something because what you feel vs upvoting (numeric) because you want to boost the visibility of either author or content.
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sknebel do you use the feed and go back - do you use it more as some kind of bookmark then?
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Zegnat I have definitely gone back to find videos in it. E.g. “I know I really liked that song’s video clip but I don’t know the name. Let me check videos I have liked.”
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sknebel what is upvote?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "upvote" yet. Would you like to create it?
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petermolnar that's a good way to differentiate - the trouble is that not many silos offer both solutions
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petermolnar as far as I can recall, 500px used to have like and fav and you can't even retreive the likes any more, while favs have been made deviantart-like into collections
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petermolnar but a while ago this, in theory, was the exact difference between the two: show appreciation and save it as something you want to remember for
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petermolnar but
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sknebel oh, right, favorites are another thing. and twitter switched from stars to hearts. and favs are kind of bookmarks, but somehow not(?)
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petermolnar none of the ones I know have 3: boost/upvote, save as bookmark, like for apperciation
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Zegnat I think silos have a good reason for not having all 3, because only power users are going to be interested in it
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Zegnat But it is probably fair to say that the way silos make those 3 things into a single button is why people have drastically different usecases for them.
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sknebel sites with explicit voting systems often have bookmarks of some kind as well (e.g. both reddit and HN)
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sknebel to pull thread back from -chat, I guess youtube "likes" are somewhat inbetween: they have a negative equivalent, the economic aspect clearly means they have a ranking role (although not direct), but we talked about them as likes and e.g. zegnat mentioned use as such
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petermolnar youtube likes are closer to upvotes thant to facebook likes/reactions imo
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Zegnat YouTube likes may or may not somehow affect the internal private algorithms used to determine front-page and recommended videos.
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Zegnat I think that’s too vague to call them upvotes.
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Zegnat Well, this is a bit scary: https://www.jwz.org/blog/2017/10/apparently-dropbox-spam-is-a-thing-now/
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Loqi Apparently Dropbox Spam is a thing now
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petermolnar is anyone documenting the bootsing effects of the available method on the different silos by the way?
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petermolnar as in do fb likes give more visibility, do twitter hearts boots ranking on search, etc
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Zegnat Haven't seen much of that on the IndieWeb. Chris' mom post is the closest to that I guess.
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Zegnat But I'm guessing there are "SEO" blogs about it
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@kongaloosh I guess this relates back to the “own your data” principles of #decentralized web and #indieweb. (twitter.com/_/status/918111843717140481)
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jjuran Bootsing sounds like a combination passphrase / voiceprint / tone sequence required to power on a computer. :-)
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[kevinmarks] @petermolnar were you looking for something like this http://www.opencalais.com
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petermolnar thanks, that looks interesting
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aaronpk petermolnar: i was experimenting with this one https://www.clarifai.com
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petermolnar isn't that image only?
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[kevinmarks] I still like this narrative of the multiple meanings of a favorite ?
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[kevinmarks] http://time.com/4336/a-simple-guide-to-twitter-favs/
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@kongaloosh Everything is indieweb. Indie all the way down. ? (twitter.com/_/status/918120544356225024)
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petermolnar [kevinmarks] oh. I haven't started thinking about the depth of the rabbit hole here: reacjis and all their deeper meanings.
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sknebel reacji map surprisingly well. and are the better thing for the "personal social like" IMHO (e.g. in messengers, answers with a single emoji (guess emoji + punctuation isn't a reacji anymore :/) express a lot between people that know each other
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petermolnar I'm still running away from emojis, and I think reacji only deepens the problem
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sknebel on mobile messengers I use emoji quite a bit by now, on PC never
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sknebel (wrong, forgot about github reacji)
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petermolnar upvote, downvote, bookmark, appreciate/whatever -> ?, ?, ?, ★ - in theory, this should be enough for any network. in theory...
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aaronpk i thought you were asking about images?
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petermolnar no, about text
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aaronpk oh, by "content" you meant text
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aaronpk i thought you literally meant like the flickr auto tagger
friedcell, snarfed, tantek, [cleverdevil], j12t, jmelesky, snarfed1 and EmreSoku_ joined the channel
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@kongaloosh @SUCanadaSummit The idea that it should be your decision to give away your information. #SUCanSummit #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/918149246486024193)
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@benwerd Media companies should own their websites + audience relationships. #indieweb, I want to see your applications. https://matter.vc/apply (twitter.com/_/status/918149486953758720)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Media companies should own their websites + audience relationships. #indieweb, I want to see your applications. https://matter.vc/apply" by Ben Werdmüller on 2017-10-11 https://werd.io/2017/media-companies-should-own-their-websites-audience-relationships-indieweb-i
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tantek admires aaronpk's home intranet of things :)
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Loqi tantek: petermolnar left you a message 4 hours, 51 minutes ago: Zegnat after that guardian article I found myself questioning if I should fuel the attention thirstiness of people at all, as in: should we even 'like/bookmark/fav' in the silos or just save them - with a copy - on our site, if it's worthy?
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tantek petermolnar: that is an excellent question
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tantek perhaps worth noting in e.g. /like#POSSE
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@Moturoais How about INC on Roku? #indiefilm #indie #film #indieweb #Roku #Feature #movies https://twitter.com/PhilAutelitano/status/918145106548576256 (twitter.com/_/status/918155549589606402)
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sebsel morning IndieWeb :)
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Loqi sebsel: sknebel left you a message 1 day, 9 hours ago: I do not seem to have received a webmention for your post, did you send one/how?
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Loqi sebsel: petermolnar left you a message 1 day, 3 hours ago: I'm in the middle of rethinking likes and bookmarks, I ended up with the following: if it's a platform and offers anything that resembles a like, I'll sign up and "properly" like it, than backfeed/pesos it to my site, and if it doesn't, it's a bookmark
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sebsel nice discussion about likes/bookmarks earlier.
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sebsel I have some re's prepared
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sebsel re feeding the like-craving: The way Indie-likes work, you can’t really just use them as upvotes. Displaying “I have 99 likes on this post” does not say anything about the post, because you can fake it. Only if your reader picks up indiviual like-posts from feeds you follow, it can boost a particular article. And even then it’s up to the reader, which is in the control of the consumer. I feel like that makes it less harmful to
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sebsel show appreciation.
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sebsel re like as upvote: in that same way, likes as upvotes only work on systems that count those votes. As a reader, you can count likes, or you can just ignore them. I don’t think a new type is helping there.
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@bourkec The break away internet: https://indieweb.org/ all mainstream ideas were once at the fringe, perhaps these radicals are the future? (twitter.com/_/status/918216803179954178)
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tantek nice
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[kevinmarks] it's TWiG time
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tantek http://www.sfgate.com/entertainment/the-wrap/article/Facebook-Goes-Down-Users-Turn-to-Twitter-to-12269781.php
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tantek https://twitter.com/NesiKa11/status/918135764759613440
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@NesiKa11 When you finally open Twitter just for checking "is facebook down?" (twitter.com/_/status/918135764759613440)
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@SaPlaneGuy https://indieweb.org is my kind of jam , he tweets (twitter.com/_/status/918253791324934144)
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tantek eh
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tantek I mean heh :)
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@microformats @anotheruiguy @aaronpk everything there's new #microformats2, @MastodonProject, @IndieWebCamp, @microdotblog, #OSS, #JSON. Looking for something in particular? ^@t (twitter.com/_/status/918256088075485184)
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tantek ooh I like the superfast key-by-key indieweb search results using the top left box here: http://blog.anotheruiguy.com