#indieweb 2017-10-11

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petermolnar
is anyone aware of any API that autotags content, similarly to auto-tag suggestions for images from vision API or flickr
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petermolnar
I don't mean keyword extraction
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sknebel
hm... do Google/IBM Watson/... have stuff like that? they surely have NLP stuff, question is if you can get useful tags from their output, without having a model specific to your usecase
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petermolnar
I don't know, that's why I'm looking
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[kevinmarks]
Google has that, yes
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j4y_funabashi
morning all
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sknebel
morning!
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sknebel
[kevinmarks]: I think the question was for something like google vision api, but for text
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Zegnat
Hellow
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petermolnar
!tell tantek Zegnat after that guardian article I found myself questioning if I should fuel the attention thirstiness of people at all, as in: should we even 'like/bookmark/fav' in the silos or just save them - with a copy - on our site, if it's worthy?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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petermolnar
Zegnat I realise you're here, but I was in the middle of the sentence :)
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Zegnat
Just going to drop in sebsel’s post on the matter: https://seblog.nl/2017/10/09/9/bookmarks-and-likes . Sometimes likes are part of social discourse
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Loqi
[Sebastiaan Andeweg] Thinking about bookmarks and likes on the IndieWeb
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petermolnar
I know, and I mostly agree with sebsel's entry
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sknebel
petermolnar: you'd need to use "," between nicks for !tell to multiple people anyways ;)
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petermolnar
back on topic: but making ~likes in the silos, social discourse or not, is just adding to the problem, isn't it?
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petermolnar
if you remember visitor counters, those remote images you added to your static geocities site, it's kind of the same thing
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Zegnat
I don’t think so. Not if the like is used for actually communicating something. The like is just replacing me commenting “great job on that thing!”.
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petermolnar
one could say that has been split into analytics and likes though
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Zegnat
I have definitely seen likes being used as more of an “I read this and didn’t dislike it” marker, which isn’t communicating anything. Those might be bolstering the numbers problem you are describing.
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petermolnar
that's the thing: I don't think I should do that, neither the ~like, nor the "good job"; both because too much appretiation is not good for anyone and inevitably leads to narcissism but also because when I poke that button I will distract the person from whatever they're doing
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petermolnar
does it worth it?
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Zegnat
That’s on every individual liker though
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Loqi
[superfeedr] "IndieWeb" by Khürt Williams on 2017-10-11 https://tracking.feedpress.it/link/1771/7052728
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petermolnar
I've heard people re-posting their stuff because it didn't get enough reactions within X minutes and therefore it will appear less and less
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petermolnar
so I don't think I'm helping the problem by liking a thing
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sknebel
interesting perspective
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Zegnat
We’re talking two different targets here though, right? Me liking dinner cooked by a friend on Facebook, vs me liking a photo by someone trying to make it on Instagram?
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Zegnat
The first is more likely to interpret my like in the social context, the latter wants it to drive their content.
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sknebel
yes, there's definitively some weird overlap between a like that's almost a (very low-bandwidth) personal message and like as "tiny part of a arbitrary number signaling popularity". Silos add at least "like as bookmark" (I'm guilty of that on twitter as well) and "like as chance of retweet" (=e.g. twitter or Facebook showing something to my followers because I liked it)
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sknebel
and I guess social signaling to third parties: "I liked $goodThing, I'm good too!" (or something like that)
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sknebel
what is like?
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sknebel
oh, I bet that's blacklisted
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sknebel
What is likes?
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Loqi
likes are sometimes part of the information about a post displayed on the post itself, sometimes in a post footer, like a total number like responses, icons of recent likers, or even a datetime ordered list of likes https://indieweb.org/likes
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petermolnar
so I'm referring to https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/oct/05/smartphone-addiction-silicon-valley-dystopia - the problem is that a little while ago I came to the conclusion that I shouldn't silently bookmark things, stalker-style, and instead I should make an effort and either use the silo or actually posse the corresponding ~like action if I happen to bookmark something, because it matters to the content creators and sometimes,
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petermolnar
if they depend on it, it's even an effect on their income
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petermolnar
however, the other side of that, is if I do give in to the silo method, I'm fueling the greed and hunt for likes
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petermolnar
the solution is most probably to identify where the like is an actual importance - income-wise, for example - and where it's an addiction, and use either proper reactions or stalker mode based on this
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petermolnar
but this is extremely hard
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jeremycherfas
I've read the above and some posts on the topic, and I really think it is incredibly hard both to have rules that would always apply and to decide each case on its merits. Iknow that if I have something to add (which makes it more of a reply or comment than a like) then I'll try to do it on my own site and POSSE.
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jeremycherfas
But if I only want to say "well said," or "I agree" then I often take the easy option and do it in the silo.
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jeremycherfas
To me, reposts are the really tricky ones. I usually do those in the silo too, even when I have something to add.
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sknebel
I hadn't considered the economic aspect. generally thought that I probably should reduce use of likes to the personal-message situation and just do bookmarks (possibly not even public, still working on what I want there exactly) otherwise
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Zegnat
The economic aspect is why I subscribe to youtubers even when I follow them in my feed reader.
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petermolnar
yes, that is indeed an economic aspect
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sknebel
and why you probably "should" like their videos. even though that's not something I personally would archive on my site
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petermolnar
however, liking on FB is most usually not
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Zegnat
I actually don’t like YouTube videos for the economic aspect, sknebel. But that is because I value when I actually like a thing. YouTube will also give you access to a playlist with everything you have liked.
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Zegnat
So while I know some algorithms and stuff will help my favourite youtubers if I like their stuff, I still treat likes as a personal thing and not as e.g. an “upvote”
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sknebel
upvote is a nice framing for it
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Zegnat
(Maybe that’s the real difference here: liking (sentimental) something because what you feel vs upvoting (numeric) because you want to boost the visibility of either author or content.
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sknebel
do you use the feed and go back - do you use it more as some kind of bookmark then?
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Zegnat
I have definitely gone back to find videos in it. E.g. “I know I really liked that song’s video clip but I don’t know the name. Let me check videos I have liked.”
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sknebel
what is upvote?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "upvote" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indieweb.org/s/10uZ
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petermolnar
that's a good way to differentiate - the trouble is that not many silos offer both solutions
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petermolnar
as far as I can recall, 500px used to have like and fav and you can't even retreive the likes any more, while favs have been made deviantart-like into collections
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petermolnar
but a while ago this, in theory, was the exact difference between the two: show appreciation and save it as something you want to remember for
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sknebel
oh, right, favorites are another thing. and twitter switched from stars to hearts. and favs are kind of bookmarks, but somehow not(?)
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petermolnar
none of the ones I know have 3: boost/upvote, save as bookmark, like for apperciation
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Zegnat
I think silos have a good reason for not having all 3, because only power users are going to be interested in it
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Zegnat
But it is probably fair to say that the way silos make those 3 things into a single button is why people have drastically different usecases for them.
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sknebel
sites with explicit voting systems often have bookmarks of some kind as well (e.g. both reddit and HN)
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sknebel
to pull thread back from -chat, I guess youtube "likes" are somewhat inbetween: they have a negative equivalent, the economic aspect clearly means they have a ranking role (although not direct), but we talked about them as likes and e.g. zegnat mentioned use as such
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petermolnar
youtube likes are closer to upvotes thant to facebook likes/reactions imo
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Zegnat
YouTube likes may or may not somehow affect the internal private algorithms used to determine front-page and recommended videos.
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Zegnat
I think that’s too vague to call them upvotes.
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Loqi
Apparently Dropbox Spam is a thing now
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petermolnar
is anyone documenting the bootsing effects of the available method on the different silos by the way?
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petermolnar
as in do fb likes give more visibility, do twitter hearts boots ranking on search, etc
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Zegnat
Haven't seen much of that on the IndieWeb. Chris' mom post is the closest to that I guess.
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Zegnat
But I'm guessing there are "SEO" blogs about it
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@kongaloosh
I guess this relates back to the “own your data” principles of #decentralized web and #indieweb.
(twtr.io/1X6C37VmkgM)
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jjuran
Bootsing sounds like a combination passphrase / voiceprint / tone sequence required to power on a computer. :-)
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[kevinmarks]
@petermolnar were you looking for something like this http://www.opencalais.com
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petermolnar
thanks, that looks interesting
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aaronpk
petermolnar: i was experimenting with this one https://www.clarifai.com
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petermolnar
isn't that image only?
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[kevinmarks]
I still like this narrative of the multiple meanings of a favorite 🌟
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@kongaloosh
Everything is indieweb. Indie all the way down. 🤖
(twtr.io/1X6F9baPFqQ)
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petermolnar
[kevinmarks] oh. I haven't started thinking about the depth of the rabbit hole here: reacjis and all their deeper meanings.
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sknebel
reacji map surprisingly well. and are the better thing for the "personal social like" IMHO (e.g. in messengers, answers with a single emoji (guess emoji + punctuation isn't a reacji anymore :/) express a lot between people that know each other
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petermolnar
I'm still running away from emojis, and I think reacji only deepens the problem
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sknebel
on mobile messengers I use emoji quite a bit by now, on PC never
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sknebel
(wrong, forgot about github reacji)
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petermolnar
upvote, downvote, bookmark, appreciate/whatever -> 👍, 👎, 🔖, ★ - in theory, this should be enough for any network. in theory...
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aaronpk
i thought you were asking about images?
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petermolnar
no, about text
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aaronpk
oh, by "content" you meant text
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aaronpk
i thought you literally meant like the flickr auto tagger
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@kongaloosh
@SUCanadaSummit The idea that it should be your decision to give away your information. #SUCanSummit #indieweb
(twtr.io/1X6RQnktowZ)
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@benwerd
Media companies should own their websites + audience relationships. #indieweb, I want to see your applications. https://matter.vc/apply
(twtr.io/1X6RVx0WMs0)
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Loqi
[superfeedr] "Media companies should own their websites + audience relationships. #indieweb, I want to see your applications. https://matter.vc/apply" by Ben Werdmüller on 2017-10-11 https://werd.io/2017/media-companies-should-own-their-websites-audience-relationships-indieweb-i
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tantek
admires aaronpk's home intranet of things :)
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Loqi
tantek: petermolnar left you a message 4 hours, 51 minutes ago: Zegnat after that guardian article I found myself questioning if I should fuel the attention thirstiness of people at all, as in: should we even 'like/bookmark/fav' in the silos or just save them - with a copy - on our site, if it's worthy?
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tantek
petermolnar: that is an excellent question
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tantek
perhaps worth noting in e.g. /like#POSSE
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@Moturoais
How about INC on Roku? #indiefilm #indie #film #indieweb #Roku #Feature #movies https://twitter.com/PhilAutelitano/status/918145106548576256
(twtr.io/1X6TetbUv6h)
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sebsel
morning IndieWeb :)
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Loqi
sebsel: sknebel left you a message 1 day, 9 hours ago: I do not seem to have received a webmention for your post, did you send one/how?
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Loqi
sebsel: petermolnar left you a message 1 day, 3 hours ago: I'm in the middle of rethinking likes and bookmarks, I ended up with the following: if it's a platform and offers anything that resembles a like, I'll sign up and "properly" like it, than backfeed/pesos it to my site, and if it doesn't, it's a bookmark
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sebsel
nice discussion about likes/bookmarks earlier.
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sebsel
I have some re's prepared
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sebsel
re feeding the like-craving: The way Indie-likes work, you can’t really just use them as upvotes. Displaying “I have 99 likes on this post” does not say anything about the post, because you can fake it. Only if your reader picks up indiviual like-posts from feeds you follow, it can boost a particular article. And even then it’s up to the reader, which is in the control of the consumer. I feel like that makes it less harmful to
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sebsel
show appreciation.
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sebsel
re like as upvote: in that same way, likes as upvotes only work on systems that count those votes. As a reader, you can count likes, or you can just ignore them. I don’t think a new type is helping there.
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@bourkec
The break away internet: https://indieweb.org/ all mainstream ideas were once at the fringe, perhaps these radicals are the future?
(twtr.io/1X6pYmDkhpd)
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[kevinmarks]
it's TWiG time
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@NesiKa11
When you finally open Twitter just for checking "is facebook down?"
(twtr.io/1X6Laq9DkxL)
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tantek
I mean heh :)
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@microformats
@anotheruiguy @aaronpk everything there's new #microformats2, @MastodonProject, @IndieWebCamp, @microdotblog, #OSS, #JSON. Looking for something in particular? ^@t
(twtr.io/1X73_mvh3ej)
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tantek
ooh I like the superfast key-by-key indieweb search results using the top left box here: http://blog.anotheruiguy.com
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Loqi
iOS Privacy: steal.password - Easily get the user's Apple ID password, just by asking
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tantek
what is apple id
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "apple id" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indieweb.org/s/10ua
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tantek
what is AppleID
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "AppleID" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indieweb.org/s/10ub
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tantek
what is iOS
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Loqi
iOS is the operating system that runs on the Apple iPhone and iPad https://indieweb.org/iOS
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tantek
AppleID is /Apple_ID
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tantek
Apple ID is https://appleid.apple.com/ a universal [[identity]] system from [[Apple]] that they use on [[iOS]] and [[macOS]] systems as well as their [[iCloud]] service.
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sknebel
good morning indieweb
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aaronpk
keithjgrant++
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Loqi
keithjgrant has 8 karma in this channel (13 overall)
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