#indieweb 2018-02-12

2018-02-12 UTC
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[miklb] I see that Ethan Marcotte (@beep) quietly added webmentions
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KartikPrabhu oooo nice!
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KartikPrabhu [miklb]: might be good to invite him to the channel. Beep's input would be pretty valuable
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[miklb] sure. I just asked about something unrelated, but will mention it
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[miklb] though not seeing any mf2 in his markup
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KartikPrabhu [miklb]: you don't need to use mf2 to receive webmentions.
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KartikPrabhu so it is a good illustration of how the different indieweb tools are separate but related
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[miklb] no, I understand. Was just curious how far he was adventuring
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KartikPrabhu maybe he started with webmention
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DanC ugh! github wikis don't have a RecentChanges page. How lame!
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DanC There's a super-hidden .atom feed, though, so they have the technology.
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KartikPrabhu <sigh>
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KartikPrabhu sidefiles--
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Loqi sidefiles has -3 karma in this channel (-4 overall)
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[miklb] doh. Just realized I can add my nick as a keyword in Slack so I can still get notifications from IRC users.
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aaronpk hah nice miklb
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tantek what was Favrd
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Favrd" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "Favrd is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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tantek Favrd was a very early tracker of recent tweets sorted by how many times they had been favorited, shut down in 2009. https://web.archive.org/web/20091221044217/http://www.zeldman.com/2009/12/06/the-stars-look-down/#comment-50635
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Loqi ok
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tantek ^^^ that comment is a really good read
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Zegnat Good morning IndieWeb
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[gerwitz] Whatever happened with FOAF?
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[gerwitz] (I found my first complaining-about-silos post 😄 https://hans.gerwitz.com/2003/12/06/connections.html )
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[gerwitz] (Friendster and Tribe and Six Degrees were such menaces.)
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Loqi [superfeedr] "十四年" by Jacky on 2018-02-12 https://medium.com/@jackysee/%E5%8D%81%E5%9B%9B%E5%B9%B4-b5a3e88eb23a?source=rss-16d3a8d731c1------2
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Zegnat What is FOAF?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "FOAF" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "FOAF is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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Zegnat Wait, we don’t have a page? :o
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[kevinmarks] Foaf never got much adoption. Xfn picked up more (I was crawling both at Technorati)
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Zegnat Hmm. Doesn’t SOLID use FOAF?
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Zegnat What is SOLID?
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Loqi Solid is a decentralized file system and protocol designed to power decentralized social applications and linked data https://indieweb.org/Solid
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Zegnat Yes, they do: https://github.com/solid/solid-spec/blob/master/solid-webid-profiles.md#required-profile-information
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[kevinmarks] I'm not sure that materially impacts foaf adoption
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Zegnat Not sure either. No idea who is doing anything with Solid.
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petermolnar summoning rhiaro
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Zegnat Is she implementing Solid?
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Zegnat She does include the namespace on her homepage, it seems, but doesn’t actually use it.
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petermolnar she was (is?) involved in Linked Data Notification, I'm uncertain about SOLID
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petermolnar https://www.w3.org/TR/2017/REC-ldn-20170502/
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Zegnat (The FOAF namespace that is.)
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Zegnat Oh, yeah, that for sure. And Solid does pull in some stuff from that end of Linked Data too :)
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petermolnar I'm completely unconvinced about all the different solutions; while schema.org is horrible, at least it's universal enough that it could be adopted, and instead of working on new standards and ideas, we could finally _use_ something
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petermolnar although mf2 more than perfect for the web
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petermolnar I've never went through FOAF, but taking a look now - geez, this is like the naming conventions of PHP functions: random.
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petermolnar mixture of camelCase, CamelCase, not_camel_case
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sknebel not_camel_case_is_snake_case
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Zegnat What is camelCase?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "camelCase" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "camelCase is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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Zegnat What is PascalCase?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "PascalCase" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "PascalCase is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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Zegnat What is snake_case?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "snake_case" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "snake_case is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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Zegnat So much missing knowledge, haha
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Loqi nice
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petermolnar andwhatisthereisnocase?
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Zegnat Not sure if that has a name
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Zegnat Other than illegible
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jeremycherfas Nospacecase
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sknebel cmpctcse
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jeremycherfas Vowels? We don't need no stinkin' vowels.
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Zegnat Next meetups: Homebrew Website Club https://indieweb.org/events/2018-02-14-homebrew-website-club. Code of conduct: https://indieweb.org/code-of-conduct, log https://chat.indieweb.org/today
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[kevinmarks] BactrianCase vs dromedaryCase?
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[kevinmarks] anyone else tried out Fritter yet?
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[kevinmarks] petermolnar - what you say . obout schema is even more true of activity streams; adoption doesn't happen that way round though
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[tantek] Zegnat - try Wikipedia for such “missing knowledge” :)
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Zegnat I was never going to add them to the IndieWeb wiki anyway [tantek]
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[tantek] I know, just sayin for the record ;)
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jeremycherfas What is fritter?
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Loqi Fritter is a P2P Twitter-like app accessible over Dat https://indieweb.org/Fritter
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jeremycherfas In that case, the answer is "No".
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[kevinmarks] Beaker is interesting in that you can just add local files to make a shared site, Fritter gives a UI on top of that
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[kevinmarks] I'm really liking "move slowly and fix things" as an indieweb ethos
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@aj100kblog The IndieWeb outside of Facebook is full of opportunities https://tpl.host/A7UQA77 #wordpress #smm https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DV1k1nuXUAIBNGZ.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/963036779300425728)
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tantek I feel like that account has already posted that a few times
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tantek lol literally every day: https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=default&q=from%3Aaj100kblog%20IndieWeb%20outside%20of%20Facebook%20is%20full%20of%20opportunities&src=typd
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tantek So, is that spam or not?
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petermolnar +1 to adding "move slowly and fix things"
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tantek I don't think speed has anything to do with it
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tantek that's up to the individual
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tantek there are folks here that move very quickly with experimenting with their own sites, and folks who move more conservatively. both are fine, and up to the individual
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jeremycherfas It strikes me as a necessary counterpart to the mantra of move fast and break things.
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tantek but that's a reaction, rather than a positive statement
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tantek why do you want a counterpart?
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tantek and why is any counterpart "necessary"?
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jeremycherfas The whole piece from which it was taken is a reaction, and a series of positive statements.
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jeremycherfas Maybe you hadn;'t seen it?
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tantek which means out of context it's not really a good ethos
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tantek if it can't stand on its own
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jeremycherfas Whatevs tantek.
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tantek it's as hollow a methodology as "don't be evil"
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tantek you can move however slow or fast you want on the indieweb, it's up to you
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aaronpk also didn't facebook "officially" stop using that phrase a few years ago?
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tantek you can gradually fix things or rapidly build and break things on your own indieweb site - it's up to you
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tantek I see no counterpart
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tantek yes
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aaronpk my mantra is move fast, write good tests, and try not to break things
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tantek aside: I've updated my Atom feed to omit responses, because I don't know of any old feed-file-only readers that do anything intelligent with responses
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tantek right aaronpk. adopt and customize such mantras as they work for you.
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aaronpk hehe
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tantek TBH "move slowly" feels like an excuse for laziness, or fear
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[kevinmarks] well,, OK, maybe it's more of a w3c ethos
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[kevinmarks] move deliberately
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tantek sure, move thoughtfully, with /principles in mind
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tantek skimmed the original piece, seems like the critique of "most fast" is only valid in absence of principles (which is implied in the piece)
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[kevinmarks] I get an analogy with the "slow food" movement
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tantek except it doesn't fit
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tantek indieweb folks often implement things thoughtfully, *faster*, than silos bother to iterate
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tantek it's why we're catching up with features, and they're failing to innovate
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tantek read the first half of this instead: https://medium.com/@steve.yegge/why-i-left-google-to-join-grab-86dfffc0be84
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[kevinmarks] OK. Maybe I'll put "Move thoughtfully and fix things" on a slide
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tantek and this: https://medium.com/@steve.yegge/google-doesnt-necessarily-need-innovation-95cea96d0eeb
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tantek "move slowly" isn't helping Google for example
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[gerwitz] maintenance over disruption?
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[gerwitz] I like Indieweb for the same reason I prefer Dutch over US infrastructure 😛
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Zegnat Dutch infrastructure? Most of that just works because the country is basically the size of a single city state 😇
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[kevinmarks] And they need to commit to it to stay un flooded
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[gerwitz] The sea is a motivating enemy.
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[gerwitz] …and very patient, so a long view is more common.
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@debs @kevinmarks @heathr Can’t hurt to see if they would support #indieweb initiative! This is obv. effort to show FB is a good place. (twitter.com/_/status/963069457592561664)
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@schmarty Your &lt; 10min update on the #IndieWeb community! This Week in the IndieWeb audio edition for February 3rd - 9th, 2018. https://martymcgui.re/2018/02/12/104749/ (twitter.com/_/status/963077602490699777)
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@huffduffer This Week in the IndieWeb Audio Edition • February 3rd - 9th, 2018 https://huffduffer.com/schmarty/459612 (twitter.com/_/status/963078821929996288)
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[cleverdevil] So, not sure this is relevant for here, or for #dev, but I've been pondering the use of Amazon S3 + Athena as a backend for my website's data storage.
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[cleverdevil] But, before I go down the rabbit hole, I am curious if, by using S3/Athena, I'm sort of wedding myself to a silo, by using a platform that has no competition.
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[cleverdevil] That said, the odds of S3 going anywhere, or Athena for that matter, are pretty much zero.
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[cleverdevil] This would basically allow me to store every single piece of content in my site as a single, static JSON file.
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[cleverdevil] In a massive, redundant, distributed object store.
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[cleverdevil] And give me the ability to query across it, very fast.
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[cleverdevil] Curious to hear thoughts!
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KartikPrabhu (moved to #dev https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2018-02-12#t1518457801483900 )
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Loqi [snarfed] [cleverdevil]: re AWS and Athena (moving here...)
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KartikPrabhu ^ for anyone reading logs later
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: is there some way to automate linking to moved conversations ? like that ^
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aaronpk automate?
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aaronpk i'm not sure what about that could be automated
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KartikPrabhu yeah like some Loqi command that automatically generates the URL in the logs
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KartikPrabhu right now I had to go to the logs and copy paste the URL. I couldn't do it from my IRC client
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aaronpk I think that requires a bit of a human touch to get it right, otherwise Loqi might find the wrong link in #dev to link to
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snarfed eh, logs are timestamped, people can follow timestamps. "(to #dev)" alone is probably fine
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: yeah I thought so
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: yeah maybe I am overdoing :P
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sknebel even jumping to jsut the same day in the other channels log would be a start
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tantek whole different kind of /silo-quit: http://money.cnn.com/2018/02/12/media/unilever-advertising-facebook-google-swamp/index.html
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tantek what is silo quits
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Loqi silo quits are public statements by individuals announcing they have publicly quit posting on or using (at all) various silos, either with intended permanence, or temporarily (sometimes referred to as taking a "social media break") https://indieweb.org/silo-quits
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tantek silo-quits << ~2018-02-05 @rafaorr quit [[Facebook]] per 2018-02-12 https://twitter.com/rafaorrr/status/963118776618188803
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@rafaorrr @CNN This is good news, I deactivated my Facebook account and erased the app from my phone a week ago, and I have to say I’ve been feeling more positive lately. Tweeter I just use for soccer news and once in a while read of breaking news. Hope everyone has a great day today (twitter.com/_/status/963118776618188803)
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Loqi ok, I added "~2018-02-05 @rafaorr quit [[Facebook]] per 2018-02-12 https://twitter.com/rafaorrr/status/963118776618188803" to the "See Also" section of /silo-quits
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dgold tantek: that story was reported in the UK media as "Marmite maker mulls facebook/youtube withdrawal"
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tantek dgold LOL!
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[colinwalker] Respect to Unilever!
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tantek yeah it's a pretty big deal
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bear if anyone is using GitLab Pages - a security notification from them -- https://about.gitlab.com/2018/02/05/gitlab-pages-custom-domain-validation/
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[kevinmarks] this is worth reading https://www.wired.com/story/inside-facebook-mark-zuckerberg-2-years-of-hell/
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tantek sooooo long kevin
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tantek too long of an article
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tantek needs a tl;dr
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[kevinmarks] The tl;dr is Zuck actually wants to fix their "feed of crap" problem
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[kevinmarks] Zeynep has a fiercer TLDR https://twitter.com/zeynep/status/963163634384941056?ref_src=twcamp%5Ecopy%7Ctwsrc%5Eandroid%7Ctwgr%5Ecopy%7Ctwcon%5E7090%7Ctwterm%5E3
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@zeynep So this Wired story pretty much confirmed for me what I’d been saying for a while (including before the election). Facebook got played and manipulated to not fix the egregious exploitation of its platform before the election. Plain and simple. https://www.wired.com/story/inside-facebook-mark-zuckerberg-2-years-of-hell/ https://twitter.com/zeynep/status/914200471384010752 (twitter.com/_/status/963163634384941056)
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tantek ^^^ what happens when you react out of fear, instead of acting with a purpose
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[kevinmarks] https://twitter.com/MichaelFNunez/status/963086658106249218?ref_src=twcamp%5Ecopy%7Ctwsrc%5Eandroid%7Ctwgr%5Ecopy%7Ctwcon%5E7090%7Ctwterm%5E3
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@MichaelFNunez It's pretty shitty. https://twitter.com/WilliamTurton/status/963082827645444096 (twitter.com/_/status/963086658106249218)
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KartikPrabhu so "move fast and break things, then regret it" ?
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tantek when you lack principles or purpose, move fast and break things = anarchy at best, manipulation by outsiders at worst
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tantek it's not the moving fast that's the problem.
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tantek Facebook << 2018-02-12 CNN: [http://money.cnn.com/2018/02/12/media/unilever-advertising-facebook-google-swamp/index.html Unilever to Facebook and Google: Clean up 'swamp' or we'll pull ads] <blockquote>"We cannot continue to prop up a digital supply chain ... which at times is little better than a swamp in terms of its transparency," Unilever marketing boss Keith Weed</blockquote>
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Loqi ok, I added "2018-02-12 CNN: [http://money.cnn.com/2018/02/12/media/unilever-advertising-facebook-google-swamp/index.html Unilever to Facebook and Google: Clean up 'swamp' or we'll pull ads] <blockquote>"We cannot continue to prop up a digital supply chain ... which at times is little better than a swamp in terms of its transparency," Unilever marketing boss Keith Weed</blockquote>" to the "See Also" section of /Facebook
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sknebel interesting article
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