#indieweb 2018-04-09

2018-04-09 UTC
jjuran, eli_oat, tantek, ajft, renem, rev_strangehope, dougbeal|mb1, wolftune, j12t_, [snarfed], KartikPrabhu and ben_thatmustbeme joined the channel; dougbeal|mb1 left the channel
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@chrisbergr Oh no! This is so sad, my Google Reader replacement #digg also shuts down. #IndieWeb https://t.co/hdW0zGzjvI (twitter.com/_/status/983215003506479104)
jalcine, loicm, barpthewire, cweiske, jihaisse, Pierre-O, [kevinmarks] and AngeloGladding joined the channel
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@ShowYourKidsTh1 I'm migrating our @KouklaHouse travel blog from @wordpressdotcom to Show your Kids the World! http://www.showyourkidstheworld.com Partly inspired by the #indieweb idea, partly because we want to build our new site. #travel #familytravel (twitter.com/_/status/983268427631480832)
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@davidmead Reading http://apps-of-a-feather.com/ makes me long for a “social network” showing 1st 140 chars of blog posts using #RSS and #Indieweb. *[#RSS]: Rich Site Summary (http://djm.click/blog/b/5UZ) (twitter.com/_/status/983300977745948672)
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jeremycherfas Good morning IndieWeb
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cweiske hiho
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sknebel good morning!
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_200ok_ just realised a universal greeting ends up sounding like the Truman Show. good (morning|afternoon|evening|night)!
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petermolnar rise and shine, citizen!
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@kevinmarks ↩️ microformats are still a thing - the microformats2 revision simplified them, and they are being used as part of the #indieweb cross-site communication with webmentions etc. https://indieweb.org/posts#Types_of_Posts - I compared with schema before http://www.kevinmarks.com/microformatschema.html (twitter.com/_/status/983330001729851392)
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@Shoq WHAT WE SHOULD DO: Urge @tomsteyer @mcuban @sacca or other BWAC (billionaire-with-a -clue) to fund a blockchain-based #indieweb social network to finally break @Facebook's near-monopoly. You put your data wherever you wish and it's shared via free and open web protocols. (twitter.com/_/status/983346234638438400)
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jeremycherfas Yay! Blockchain!
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Loqi :D
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KartikPrabhu and hurray for "give us money" without explaining "why someone should do that"
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jeremycherfas They have a clue, right. So they get it. :)
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skippy ahoy hoy
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tantek_ greetings from ZRH
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tantek_ Odd, plenty to unpack in that tweet.
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tantek_ Why the focus on speculative plumbing? ("blockchain-based social network" - hypothetical)
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tantek_ Why artificially a positive (#indieweb social network) to a negative "break ... near-monopoly"? The former does not require the latter. The latter, like negative incentives in general, is not sustainable (fails /longevity ).
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tantek_ And why "billionaire with a clue"? The last time a billionaire (presumably) pitched a decentralized social network with blockchain was McAfee's pitch of /Hiveway - we all know how quickly that scam ended.
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tantek_ The closing statement "You put your data wherever you wish and it's shared via free and open web protocols" is a reasonable summary of some of the top indieweb home page statements but does not follow from nor need any of the "SHOULD" sentence at the start.
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[kevinmarks] heh. I can't quite see the people he tagged in (Including me) coming to an agreement.
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[davidmead] Funnily enough Merlin Mann and John Siracusa spoke about FB on their podcast https://www.relay.fm/rd/75. Towards the end of it, reflects a lot of my feelings - ie. people won’t move because they don’t think there’s anything wrong
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_200ok_ I think people won't move unless the majority of their friends and family move to one single alternative.
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_200ok_ It's easy to forget that FB still actually, usefully connects people. That's a big motivation for the average person to stay.
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_200ok_ I once speculated that open data would let multiple social networks coexist while still making a profit (https://weblog.200ok.com.au/2007/07/syndication-needs-to-get-social.html) ... it's still true from a tech perspective
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_200ok_ But businesses don't like to share.
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@Shoq ↩️ For those unfamiliar with #indieweb concept (your own domain as primary web identity), here's the FAQ. social network component. https://indieweb.org/IndieWeb OSSN, ELGG or cots solution could be bolted on for the social network component https://www.opensource-socialnetwork.org/ (twitter.com/_/status/983366443453571072)
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_200ok_ (insert wistful ramblings about the days of BBSes ;))
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[jgmac1106] @_200ok_ I almost rejoined myself. Was having a problem with my bike derailer, and was like, "Dammit if I was still on FB I could post a message on the town group page and find someone to help me right now. Kind of sucks not being plugged in locally
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pjz "I object to FB as a silo, but not as a network, since it's already an overlay on the web. A socialnet with a browser plugin that could be told to post to FB *as well as* the socialnet would be nice.
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@swW3fNbFC2LuZaU https://bit.ly/2GLuOD7 analsexluxembourg indieweb pigpay thatshit kinks allylyons1 popstar piccollage theresident columbusday cleveland last performinglive boxingday (twitter.com/_/status/983383868530221056)
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[kevinmarks] _200ok_ the point is to make it so they don't all have to move to a single alternative, but have multiple alternatives cross-connect
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[kevinmarks] @pjz that we already have a few times over.
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gRegorLove What is Omnibear?
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Loqi Omnibear is a browser extension for posting text notes, replies, and likes to your website using Micropub https://indieweb.org/Omnibear
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@Shoq ↩️ There are many potential vectors and layers. I would like to see first things. I think Tantek Çelik, @kevinmarks and the @indiewebcamp folks have always had a very simple model that could jump-start it, given this new @Facebook hysteria. The social networking options are many. (twitter.com/_/status/983394225248194561)
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@PHLUBUP ↩️ Mastodon with a twitter-killer UI and a good DM would be formidable. (twitter.com/_/status/983394725439811584)
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[jgmac1106] https://files.slack.com/files-pri/T03QR2B2T-FA3LK8D9Q/screen_shot_2018-04-09_at_1.30.38_pm.png?pub_secret=965d4b15a4&name=Screen Shot 2018-04-09 at 1.30.38 PM.png I got here trying out omnibear. IndieAuth went through but the token failed it seems
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@Shoq ↩️ #OpenWeb's been around since 2010. It's consistent with #PluralityOfProjects approach, which I favor. These ideas don't need more tech. They need a collaborative framework & a team advocating them full-time now that the silo threat is clear. https://indieweb.org/principles#Plurality #webredux (twitter.com/_/status/983405724813361152)
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@kevinmarks ↩️ If you want a more twitter like ui to the fediverse that mastodon is part of, there is http://quitter.no http://quitter.se etc (twitter.com/_/status/983421951262806016)
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@PHLUBUP ↩️ That Norsk one is down for the count. Swedish one's loading. I'll check it out. Thanks! (twitter.com/_/status/983422726692990976)
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tantek_ [jgmac1106] good point about the value of FB Groups
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tantek_ Hey _200ok_ great to see you here!
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tantek_ And that's a great post, definitely would be a good retrospective add to IndieNews! https://weblog.200ok.com.au/2007/07/syndication-needs-to-get-social.html
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tantek_ _200k_++ for "publish once and syndicate wherever I choose" back in 2007(!!!)
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tantek_ 200k++
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tantek_ 200ok++
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tantek_ hmm does Loqi require a leading a-zA-Z for karma commands?
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@Shoq ↩️ After http://identi.ca went away, I watched http://Pump.io evolve. I recently got side-eye about OStatus that I still don't quite get. As I said, lots of options for the SocialNet prong, but that by itself isn't a #FB killer (But it's a good start. :) (twitter.com/_/status/983428158845345792)
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kaushalmodi \_200k\_++
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kaushalmodi well, I tried
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tantek_ ok++
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Loqi ok has 1 karma in this channel (0 overall)
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tantek_ just needs 199 more :)
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tantek_ !tell [jgmac1106] if you have a moment, could you add your perspective / use-case that you noted re: FB town group page to https://indieweb.org/private_group#Perspective_and_Itches (added mine there myself). Thanks!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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snarfed is there a widely accepted icon for "slow"?
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snarfed i could use a turtle, but i'd rather an abstract symbol
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tantek_ snarfed, more context? is it 'slow' as an indicator, or 'slow down' like a button like for half-speed video etc.?
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aaronpk huh, seems to be a speedometer with the pointer to the left, or turtles https://thenounproject.com/search/?q=slow
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snarfed it'll on a bridgy user page, to indicate that it's polling less often due to silo rate limiting
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snarfed ok
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tantek_ a-ha - throttling
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Zegnat I am never sure how well speedometers work without a contrasting “fast” icon to show the viewer there are different states depending on where the arrow points
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tantek_ snarfed, first thing that came to mind is a classic "SPEED LIMIT" sign, same type etc. perhaps saying "RATE LIMIT" :)
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snarfed yeah. sadly street signs aren't universal, not even shapes, and i'd ideally like to avoid text
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snarfed i'll try turtle
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tantek_ 🐌
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tantek_ do we have an emoji for silo?
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snarfed 🏢
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tantek_ yeah I was looking at that one. office building could mean so many things tho
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snarfed sure. if we want one, we'll have to go with *some* approximation
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tantek_ going to prefer a more positive use
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[jgmac1106] will do t, though the group I might miss the most is the always snarky Colorado Big Game Trophy Wook Hunters, and all of the professional teacher groups, so many professional orgs seemed to have neglecte their listserv in favor of FB groups
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snarfed ok, trying out turtle: https://brid.gy/instagram/snarfed#listen-ui
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@pstuifzand I implemented ZADD/ZRANGEBYSCORE paging in the microsub server. :D #redis #microsub #indieweb https://p83.nl/p/514 (twitter.com/_/status/983435896430252032)
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[kevinmarks] 🏺🚧📉⛔〽Are the most "slow down" seeming emoji
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tantek_ the chart ones are sad looking sparklines
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[kevinmarks] Amphora, shed and barrel implying silo
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tantek_ 🚧 looks like a "road or bridge out ahead" warning/block, could be appropriate for if/when a bridgy service is (temporarily) down
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tantek_ While ⛔ is a firm DO NOT ENTER (implying danger etc.)
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[kevinmarks] Hourglass is good for wait, as it has an implied bottleneck
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tantek_ true!
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snarfed good call
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[kevinmarks] Also the windows legacy there
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tantek_ snarfed, you can make the emoji hourglass spin using CSS animation ;)
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snarfed lol. or not
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snarfed funny though
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sknebel hourglas kind of implies "I'm doing something right now, wait for it to finish" to me
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snarfed yeah actually hourglass might fit "polling now" better than the current icon for that
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tantek_ kevinmarks, amphora sounds like a nice project/product name for portable storage
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tantek_ just read wikipedia page
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[kevinmarks] And pithos for a big one
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tantek_ but is there a pithos emoji?
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@EddieHinkle ↩️ I know you have a http://micro.blog, I have really been enjoying http://micro.blog and it echoes what you describe here. I use it for 90% of my social net interactions and it’s great! Also, I’ve been using #microsub (https://indieweb.org/Microsub)… https://eddiehinkle.com/2018/04/09/4/reply/ (twitter.com/_/status/983443579799564288)
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[kevinmarks] snarfed - if you increase the snippet length can we regenerate the comment?
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snarfed (re https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/805)
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Loqi [kevinmarks] #805 Blogger domain localisation breaks webmentions via bridgy
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[kevinmarks] (I want to show it to Gargron as an example of why mastodon should send WM's)
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snarfed [kevinmarks]: not easily. it's idempotent; it knows it already created a comment.
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snarfed probably easier for you to just edit it in blogger manually
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[kevinmarks] hah
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[kevinmarks] but if the post updated and the wm was resent, would it edit the comment?
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snarfed sorry, no
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snarfed iirc blogger api didn't support that
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snarfed https://developers.google.com/blogger/docs/2.0/developers_guide_protocol#Comments
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tantek_ such uneditability is a good reason to POSSE a subset (summary) to such destinations, and link to your canonical full version so you can update it
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[kevinmarks] hm, the UI doesn't either
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[kevinmarks] I have "remove content" "delete" or "spam"
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[kevinmarks] epic anti-silo rant https://twitter.com/gravislizard/status/983368802992668683
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@gravislizard The thing that really kills me about the silicon valley hypercapitalist hell spiral is how many good, desirable ideas they're killing forever by implementing them so fucking horribly that when everyone wakes up from this daze we'll reject massive swaths of concepts reflexively. (twitter.com/_/status/983368802992668683)
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tantek_ or it will slow down the adoption of those (new) concepts, good, desirable ideas, so we take time to build and iterate on them incrementally, thoughtfully, humanely.
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tantek_ the rest of that thread though - wow
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tantek_ ok but seriously this is basically solved on iOS device + MacOS "Image Capture" utility: https://twitter.com/gravislizard/status/983375461349642241
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@gravislizard god fucking forbid we have something like a send option in the android UI that notices I have a USB cable plugged in and lets me send shit to my PC where i get a dialog asking where to save it. that's the work of a weekend but instead we've gone decades without it. (twitter.com/_/status/983375461349642241)
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tantek_ It me 😂 https://twitter.com/gravislizard/status/983378250058493952
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@gravislizard Taking a single photo on a mobile device is the act of signing a support contract with yourself. Congratulations, dipshit, you are now committed to Developing A Workflow, like this is your job. Or you can live as a beast and someday your phone fills up with photos you can't save (twitter.com/_/status/983378250058493952)
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tantek_ should document his photo taking workflow because seriously there is one
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tantek_ is more curious how aaronpk's photo taking workflow has evolved since the days of eyefi cards
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aaronpk i still use my eye-fi card!
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aaronpk it syncs directly to my computer now instead of uploading to flickr, so i have a bit of an automated workflow that ends up with the photos on flickr via my computer
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[kevinmarks] google's photos cloud is really good
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tantek_ aaronpk - wow!
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tantek_ kevinmarks - I believe that thread addressed (not) trusting anything Google and server/cloud related
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[kevinmarks] yes, I get that. Of the silos, I am more inclined to think Google won't delete or sell my photos. They will run AIs over them though.
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[kevinmarks] and sometimes that can be amusing http://known.kevinmarks.com/2015/the-uncanny-valley-of-video-editing
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Loqi [Kevin Marks] The uncanny valley of video editing
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skippy Amazon Photos is nice for Amazon Prime members. No public API yet, though, but for a place to dump gigs of photos, it's not bad.
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tantek_ what is Amazon Photos
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Amazon Photos" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "Amazon Photos is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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aaronpk oh yeah i forgot i'm using amazon photos as a backup of my eye-fi workflow
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tantek_ I would love to know which friends are in the same (not-my-home) city as I am, and since Dopplr, I have no idea how to figure that out
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aaronpk same!
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tantek_ even just in their twitter bio/location so I can @-mention them
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tantek_ oh hey that gives me an #indieweb-dev reader idea...
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aaronpk i was just thinking that
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[kevinmarks] swarm will give you some of them
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snarfed hey tantek_ have you considered extending your rsvp webmention display to likes and reposts? seems pretty incremental, and i expect avoids spam
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[kevinmarks] if you change your home city in facebook it will list them
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[kevinmarks] anyone on Windows and want to try http://openlivewriter.org/ with Aaron's new thing
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@gRegorLove ↩️ Yep, microformats are alive and well; used a lot in the #indieweb community. If you’re adding them to new content, I’d recommend checking out microformats2 h-card. Easier markup and parsers are backwards compatible. http://microformats.org/wiki/h-card (twitter.com/_/status/983464131570360321)
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[kevinmarks] I have . a Windows 7 machine, lets see
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[kevinmarks] hm. Invalid Server Response: blogger.GetUsersBlogs method was invalid
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aaronpk blogger? hrm i might need to implement more of those apparently
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[kevinmarks] INvalid response document returned from XmlRpc server -thats telling it I'm using wordpress
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[kevinmarks] shall I see what other options it offers?
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aaronpk well if someone says they'll actually use this, I'll add support for it
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[kevinmarks] looks kinda alive - maybe we should just file a bug asking for micropub https://github.com/OpenLiveWriter/OpenLiveWriter
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Loqi [OpenLiveWriter] OpenLiveWriter: An open source fork of Windows Live Writer
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aaronpk that'd be better :)
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[kevinmarks] same error
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[kevinmarks] I was just looking for metaweblog clients
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[kevinmarks] now trying oldschool python xmlrpc code
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tantek_ gregorlove++
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Loqi gregorlove has 114 karma in this channel (230 overall)
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tantek_ hey who was looking for examples of multilingual posts? http://tantek.com/2018/099/t1/berlin
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Loqi [Tantek Çelik] Guten Abend Berlin Freunden! Ich bin in deiner Stadt. Here for @CSSWG meetings this week. LMK if you’re around and let’s hang! (no idea how to search Twitter for friends/followings in Berlin so I can @-mention them)
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snarfed what is bridge all the things?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "bridge all the things" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "bridge all the things is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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snarfed bridge all the things is a nascent IndieWeb philosophy that prioritizes interoperability over ideology, NIH, historical disagreements, etc. ecosystems are valuable and powerful, and one easy way to extend an ecosystem is to bridge it with other existing ecosystems.
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Loqi ok
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[kevinmarks] bridge all the things << http://epeus.blogspot.com/2003/09/how-to-atomize-or-de-atomize.html
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Loqi ok, I added "http://epeus.blogspot.com/2003/09/how-to-atomize-or-de-atomize.html" to a brand new "See Also" section of /bridge_all_the_things https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=46768&oldid=46767
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tantek_ wow, searching IRC I did not expect to find this 2015 reference as the first: https://chat.indieweb.org/2015-07-31#t1438364619261000
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Loqi [tantek] Bridge all the things!
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tantek_ snarfed, I have a feeling you've been saying this for a while
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snarfed heh maybe
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[kevinmarks] has loqi not made the meme before?
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gRegorLove what is NIH?
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Loqi NIH is Not Invented Here is an anti-pattern and a frequent response to standards, especially in big companies https://indieweb.org/NIH
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[kevinmarks] hm https://loqisaur.tumblr.com/
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tantek_ snarfed, well if I'm to blame for that, then I want to pass along credit/inspiration to early TimBL writings and actions/inventions, when such bridging was a key design aspect of initial web tech URL, HTTP, HTML so it could get incrementally adopted in existing ecosystems.
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pjz the nice thing about standards is that there's so many to choose from
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tantek_ I.e. to bridge existing internet ways of accessing things (gopher, wais) instead of insisting on HTTP, to bridge serving of any kind of document (PDF, Word, whatever) instead of insisting on HTML, and to be able to use any protocol (FTP, gopher whatever) to serve HTML instead of insisting it only be served over HTTP. (early Weaving the Web citation I think)
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[snarfed] 👍
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tantek_ found it: http://tantek.com/log/2003/0813t1158.html#minimodules
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tantek_ that's actually a decent quote for the building blocks page
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tantek_ (as compared to the "stack" frame of mind - no pun intended, obv, this isn't dev)