#indieweb 2018-08-14

2018-08-14 UTC
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@jgmac1106 11 years ago @hickstro & I presented w/ @lzread98  @laurieHenry & @wiobyrne at what we believe to be  first @ncte session on blogging with students. Now Troy, @shsabrams and I  to submit an IES grant to bring #DoOO and #IndieWeb to schools ⏱✈️ (http://jgregorymcverry.com/5970-2/) (twitter.com/_/status/1029162356255940608)
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@stringy I joined in on #BlockParty500 in the hopes that Twitter will feel the pressure to sort out the nazis and conspiracy theorists. Also going to try a few @indiewebcamp projects in case they don’t sort it out. (twitter.com/_/status/1029176601999601664)
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[jgmac1106] I just have to ask are there really this many Nazis in the world...everyone is talking about Nazi free zones as if the Illinois Nazis were after every band on a mission from God
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aaronpk That sounds like -chat
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[jgmac1106] yeah it was...sorry
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@sandhawke ↩️ I'm not understanding that use case. Give me an example of when you would want to do that? (There are lots of open issues not solved for me, but this doesn't sound like one I know.) (twitter.com/_/status/1029199217900875776)
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@dustyweb "Dear @cwebber, I don't suppose you have opinions about how to implement a web of trust system for the fediverse???" Heck yeah I have opinions, and here's how you do it: you combine it with a petnames system: https://chat.indieweb.org/social/2018-08-14#t1534216302328700 (twitter.com/_/status/1029212047597334528)
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@jgmac1106 ↩️ Thinking back to the Verisign logo everyone ignored. A publisher, group, friends have clear criteria of what counts as trust. Behind some logo is a list of ten sites who meet criteria Seems a solution possible today. Open to any perspective (http://jgregorymcverry.com/5979-2/) (twitter.com/_/status/1029229628668497920)
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jgmac1106 good morning all
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@wiobyrne ↩️ I think we're close with #IndieWeb. I can create a space for bookmarks & documenting as I think, sharing publications with full transparency, & longer blog posts to tease out/test drive ideas. Really need a personal wiki to pull this all together, but need to invent cloning first (twitter.com/_/status/1029320521459097600)
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[jgmac1106] Wow... Bridgy buttons in Indigenous... Say keeps getting better.
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@jgmac1106 I am excited to test and share all the important #IndieWeb WordPress updates. @pfefferle released a new mf2 plugin that works with more themes, @dshanske made publishing easier and @aaronpk added apeture to support social readers. (https://jgregorymcverry.com/5984-2/) (twitter.com/_/status/1029321394193084416)
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@wiobyrne Slowly coming out of my vacation-induced social media cocoon with some renewed ideas for how I handle my digital. Streamlined domain of my own, systematized #IndieWeb, & more Twitter. But, now I see we're all leaving Twitter... (twitter.com/_/status/1029325241879801857)
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@jgmac1106 ↩️ so many awesome #IndieWeb WordPress things happened when you were gone…Very close to turnkey….you have to try the @Indigenous on Android now that the micropub and header authorization issues all sorted….It is so cool. (http://jgregorymcverry.com/5988-2/) (twitter.com/_/status/1029327543940337664)
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@jgmac1106 ↩️ @autmm  Here is my class https://edu522.networkedlearningcollabortive.com using webmentions as part of class is awesome and release of some new #IndieWeb plugins makes it easier  with WordPress.. though I am still tempted to try @microdotblog (http://jgregorymcverry.com/5990-2/) (twitter.com/_/status/1029328667737026560)
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@oldaily Building an IndieWeb Reader #oldaily https://www.downes.ca/post/68447 There's a lot to like in this description (I haven't tried out the actual product) of a reader that in many ways resembles what I'm trying to do with gRSShopper. (twitter.com/_/status/1029341176724434950)
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@nick_chater Building an IndieWeb Reader https://ift.tt/2B7gvX1 #EdChat (twitter.com/_/status/1029343998735994880)
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tantek__ wow looks like there's a whole wave of Twitter locking accounts happening
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tantek__ https://twitter.com/ztsamudzi/status/1028494677157113856
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@ztsamudzi Wow. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DkXycr2UcAAkERY.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/1028494677157113856)
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tantek__ (see screenshot and thread)
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tantek__ also I got an email on 2018-08-11 00:27 PDT saying that my @t account was unlocked ("restored"), and the "reason" it was locked.
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tantek__ "Your account was locked due to a violation of the Twitter Rules (https://twitter.com/rules), specifically our rules around abuse: https://support.twitter.com/articles/20169997. "
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tantek__ "Your account is now restored. Please note that further violations may result in the locking of your account again or permanent account suspension. "
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tantek__ Despite my account being unlocked, I'm still going to reply to that and note there was no abuse from my account - my posts are pretty positive in general, and certainly not attacking any person / group etc.
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tantek__ Another odd lockout: https://twitter.com/LadyJSuarez1/status/1028520263649054720
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@LadyJSuarez1 @ztsamudzi @emoblackthot I posted this and got locked out. Apparently this violated twitters rules. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DkYJueMUUAEskJu.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/1028520263649054720)
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tantek__ This makes me think that there are groups of people going around on Twitter and en masse reporting accounts for abuse to get them locked
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aaronpk wow
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eeeeeta time to move to mastodon or some indieweb solution?
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tantek__ though I'm not sure how much is targeted vs Twitter starting to err on the side of locking out and deleting accounts as an overreaction to their problem(s) with bots
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tantek__ I just noticed my followers # went down a lot from 72k to 67k and I'm hoping that's an indicator of lots of bot accounts being deleted (I still suspect most of those followers are bots)
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tantek__ Seems like it's not just Twitter either:
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tantek__ https://twitter.com/SwiftOnSecurity/status/993240491176222720
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@SwiftOnSecurity If anyone on Facebook’s security/login team is out there, I’ve been submitting appeals to get my Facebook account I only used for a day unlocked, for months. I may have fallen into some failure loop because nothing happens at all. No emails or rejections. Keeps asking for ID pic. (twitter.com/_/status/993240491176222720)
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tantek__ maybe we should create a page about account locking and start to document these across silos?
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aaronpk there were a bunch of posts going around about how people should expect to see a drop in follower counts after the great bot culling of 2018
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petermolnar I'm quite happy people are getting driven away from silos; on the other hand, I'm also afraid it will just drive them away from having an internet presence at all
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@arthrfrts ↩️ mas eu acho que chegamos num ponto onde essa centralização de conversa, tanto aqui quanto no fb. é mais prejudicial do que qualquer outra. que voltem a tornar a internet uma praça pública (como o indieweb pretende fazer), não o parquinho de anunciante, como o fb e o twitter. (twitter.com/_/status/1029368476744511488)
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tantek__ TIL: "break the glass" or "break glass" scenario (in security terms) https://twitter.com/SwiftOnSecurity/status/1010272797820686337
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@SwiftOnSecurity @DenShilkin Great question! There are scenarios called “break-the-glass” where you have an account using only a secure password physically stored in a locked safe, as a last-resort option. Example: Attacker wipes all your phones, SMS codes not coming through (it happens), or rogue admin (twitter.com/_/status/1010272797820686337)
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skippy petermolnar: what do you suggest instead of silos? (not trolling; legit question!)
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tantek__ does anyone have / do anything like this for their personal site?
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tantek__ skippy, depends on your use-case! but in general, start with publishing on your own site instead of silos :)
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petermolnar skippy: it really depends on the use case; many should just return to email and send their important family pictures to their family. Others should start their own website, yet others might just want some group chats.
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skippy sure, i know that. but that doesnt account for all the interactions that silos facilitate more easily.
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petermolnar you mean the likes, favs, viewed-by counters, etc? yeah, getting rid of vanity is hard :)
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skippy true; but there's a lot more to the interactions than just vanity.
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snarfed eg rsvps
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skippy discovery of new ideas / content / interesting people; interacting with people in low-impact ways.
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petermolnar I think rsvps are overrated. Either make tickets (it could be free tickets), or just ignore rsvp and hope for the best.
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petermolnar discovery is in fact an issue
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petermolnar but
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aaronpk rsvps are not overrated! I've mentioned the difference in turnout rates for IWCs between people who posted an RSVP vs people who registered for a ticket
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petermolnar for that, we have things like reddit, hn, etc; which are not, strictly speaking, content silos
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aaronpk even when the ticket costs money
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snarfed also for any non trivial event planning, rsvps are pretty much necessary
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petermolnar aaronpk: I'm not saying they can't be useful, I just think they are overrated
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petermolnar but rsvps are not silo reactions, not like likes or favs; it's a since-the-dawn-of-time thing
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aaronpk and i'm countering that by giving an example of how much of a difference it makes
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petermolnar I mean you can rsvp face to face
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snarfed not if you're remote
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petermolnar voice call to voice call
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petermolnar letter
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petermolnar email
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petermolnar etc.
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snarfed heh. sounds like you're intent on avoiding structured online interactions in general. if so then sure.
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skippy there's more than one way to do most everything. I could print off all my photos and mail copies to people. i could invite everyone over for an old fashioned slide show.
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Zegnat If we are just talking about what you lose by quitting silos, and the only silo I know that offers an RSVP response being Facebook, I don’t think you need to stick to silos for RSVPs or events. In my experience, RSVPs on Facebook events are close to useless.
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Zegnat But RSVPs in general, I don’t think are useless at all.
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skippy overrated != useless; to be pedantic. petermolnar never said useless.
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tantek__ skippy, you can use your own site for interactions also. if you want to keep getting interactions from silos, you can add POSSE+backfeed support
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@Long_Lazuli ↩️ @SaraSoueidan Good idea, maybe check https://indieweb.org/webmention , I want to try it too soon. (twitter.com/_/status/1029372212879478785)
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skippy tantek__: yes, I know. *I* can. But that's a high bar for entry. I'm thinking of the casual user.
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tantek__ petermolnar: all those rsvp alternatives do not scale for event organizers.
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tantek__ skippy, for the casual user, you're right. ideally your indieweb software/service would have a simple on/off switch for [x] publish to silos and receive interactions back
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skippy yes, that would be grand.
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tantek__ we're not quite at "casual user" /Generation 4 yet, however either micro.blog or WordPress+plugins definitely reaches more people that we did a year ago, well into /Generation 2
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skippy agreed.
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tantek__ we'll get there
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tantek__ step by step, year by year, we reach more people, more "casual" users
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petermolnar tantek__: event organisers managed before facebook
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skippy this is what has me thinking a bit more about these issues today: https://twitter.com/ringmaster/status/1029201005714583553
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@ringmaster @smerrill In Twitter, like many others, I have yet to find a service that has the same capabilities without the available audience. I don’t care a lot about this activism, but I find it disappointing that after everyone with principles leaves, I’ll only have their opponents left to read. (twitter.com/_/status/1029201005714583553)
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petermolnar yes, they might have more data and generic idea of an event has enough people, so that can minimise risk
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tantek__ petermolnar yes, evite 😂
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tantek__ skippy, mass silo migration has happened before, and it will happen again
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tantek__ especially for the audience chasers
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petermolnar interesting question though, was geocities a silo?
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petermolnar (proto-silo)
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tantek__ sorta - you didn't control the TLD
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tantek__ it was a content hosting silo, just not social media
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tantek__ plenty of silos before social media
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Zegnat As long as %service% can irrevocably cut you off, and you have no way to then point it at %newservice%, it would be a silo. If your Geocities page was suddenly made unavailable, you cannot communicate where people might find you now, and you may not have been able to take with you stuff you stored there. Sounds silo to me.
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petermolnar back on the original question, skippy - what to replace silos with - fair question, and as long as one of the main selling points of silos is that they their audience believing they are seen and heard, the answers is... with another silo...
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snarfed as much as i get bored by "is X a silo" questions (purely personally!), i do appreciate the simplicity of our central dogma. if you have 1) the domain, and 2) data portability, you're indie, you're not on a silo. all else follows.
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tantek__ "selling points"
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tantek__ nevermind their or others framings or "selling points", ask yourself what is *your* use-case that you want to solve (or are using a silo for currently), then let's talk about that
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snarfed asdf
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tantek__ that's much more productive than hating on silos etc.
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snarfed heh oops nm
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tantek__ wat
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skippy not all silo users want the same things, obviously. But the whole network effect of communication on Twitter *is* hard to replicate.
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tantek__ "hard to replicate" said every other dominant silo which ended up dying
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petermolnar tantek__: completely agreed, but that approach requires a certain zen mindset, to be able to focus on what _you_ want out of this
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tantek__ petermolnar: hah I think that's the first time I've heard indieweb called zen 😂
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petermolnar see the (forced) shift from search to recommendations these days
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skippy what I want is to be able to communicate quickly and easily with poeple I like; and to be able to enjoy fun new content. If I pursue what I want, I wont have the network of participants of all my casual-user friends.
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tantek__ skippy, if you chase "network effect" you'll just keep bouncing from one dying silo to the next
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petermolnar https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0020/#id3 - we have rather similar approach with the principles
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tantek__ it's a futile quest
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skippy tantek__: i think you're making a bit of a slippery slope argument. it's not all-or-nothing,
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skippy i'n not suggesting we "chase" the network effect; i'm observing that the network effect has some value in communication;
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petermolnar skippy: 1) I want is to be able to communicate quickly and easily with poeple I like - it's called email or IM; 2) and to be able to enjoy fun new content - technorati, reddit, hn, etc, just never check the comments. These two are not actually connected in my opinion.
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skippy petermolnar: fair point that they're not directly connected. reposts and retweets makes it easier for me to find content FROM PEOPLE I LIKE / TRUST, which adds weight to whether i choose to pursue it. HN, reddit, etc, require sifting through a lot more junk, overall.
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petermolnar in case of reddit, it really depends on the subreddit
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Zegnat Sounds like you need a feed reader like fever. Where you can have (twitter?) feeds from people you like/trust boost how high items from reddit/hn/etc show up.
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Zegnat I wish that concept had caught on with feed readers in general
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petermolnar imo one of the hardest silos to replace is github, when it comes to random collaboration and pull requests
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[iambismark] ugly side of silo quits is broken links… my ssg does tweet oembed query at build time and barfs when the tweet is deleted… feels like i’m going in to fix it every other day now…
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skippy linkrot is a problem all over the web.
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skippy people change their publishing software and get new permalink structures. people change domains. sites get bought out and paywalled.
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[jgmac1106] Quitting Silos is also a loss of Networks, extremely important ones in my field and in my small town
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[jgmac1106] I miss a ton beyond family since saying goodbye to facebook
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Loqi misses a ton beyond family since saying goodbye to facebook too
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[jgmac1106] @skippy this is where I dream of some kind of group affiliation in an hcard... Though I could as I type it just group people I like into a specific feed
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[jgmac1106] But still be really neat if one day I could say share this post but only with x, y, z
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skippy aye
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aaronpk i want that
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[eddie] Yeah, can kind of imagine doing a type of …. *shudder* Google Hangouts Circles type thing
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[eddie] Because I think group affiliation is different to different people
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[eddie] Good morning, [cleverdevil] 👋
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[cleverdevil] Good morning, IndieWeb 🙂
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Zegnat I am looking forward to seeing if/how litepub might address that share-to-group case.
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skippy what is litepub?
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Loqi litepub is a static blog generator written in Go https://github.com/mirovarga/litepub and also a nascent effort to define a stricter subset of ActivityPub https://semestriel.framapad.org/p/litepub https://indieweb.org/litepub
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[cleverdevil] Been thinking about my serverless CMS more and more.
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[cleverdevil] This new activity around a listing/searching posts via Micropub "q=" makes me want to take another crack at it.
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Zegnat Hmm, that framapad link is offline
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[cleverdevil] Remove the frontend bit completely.
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[eddie] Ohhh that makes sense
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[eddie] a serverless API for creating and reading posts
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[cleverdevil] Just focus on making a really easy to deploy and operate CMS *backend*.
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[cleverdevil] Yup.
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[eddie] :exploding_head:
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[eddie] Awesome
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[cleverdevil] Also, AWS just made Aurora Serverless generally available.
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[cleverdevil] So, I could use that as the backend store, and it'd cost pennies a month to run.
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[eddie] Oh nice!
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[cleverdevil] Too many projects, too little time 🙂
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aaronpk tell me about it
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[cleverdevil] Also, I got a reply back from Apple that they're *STILL* investigating my issue getting Indiepaper-iOS published 😕
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[cleverdevil] (its been 28 days)
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[eddie] That is insane. I don’t understand how it can take them this long
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[jgmac1106] ... Tried to make a new Twitter app for SNAP four weeks later they need more information before approving my app... Silo through Attrition
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@mattmcmanus I've read about technologies under the umbrella of the "Indie Web" before but never really leaned into it. I'm categorically compelled by the idea now! It feels like an attempt at reclaiming some of what we've lost on the internet: https://indieweb.org/ (twitter.com/_/status/1029403118453239809)
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[tantek] Zegnat were you able to find that framapad link on Archive org?
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[tantek] [iambismark] perhaps a reason to only use oembed query at first build time for that post instead of every build time?
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Zegnat [tantek], I haven’t checked yet, bit busy around the house. Eitherway it wouldn’t be uptodate. The pad got vandalised and a new private pad is being used for the current development of the standard
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[iambismark] Yah just something I need to get around to building, I’m not sure if Hugo has a native way of doing that.
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[grantcodes] [cleverdevil] I'm working on my headless micropub endpoint at https://github.com/grantcodes/micropub-endpoint
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[grantcodes] Getting close to the point of switching my own site over to once I iron out a few issues and test it properly
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[grantcodes] Don't know if you'd be able to run it "serverless" though.
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[cleverdevil] I'm sure its possible.
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[cleverdevil] If you want to give it shot, you can likely do it pretty quickly using serverless framework - https://www.serverless.com
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[cleverdevil] -> #dev
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kicks cheerio
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@OnlineInstruct1 Building an IndieWeb Reader #Learning http://dld.bz/gWtqk (twitter.com/_/status/1029433159484669952)
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@DavidWolfpaw Check out @iwantmyname promoting #IndieWeb on their homepage. https://t.co/ZDGgtJJ1G7 (twitter.com/_/status/1029447747571732480)
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sknebel Interesting question, do you keep siloquit deleted posts around in your embeds or so you delete them following the original?
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[iambismark] i’ve been keeping the body with a link, even though its a broken link, just for historical purposes. i know technically thats against the wishes of the author… but 🤷‍♂️
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[iambismark] i also started running youtube-dl on all the youtube videos i post so that in case the video disappears on youtube i can rehost it…
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[chrisaldrich] I typically embed things like Tweets in their native format, but also keep a blockquoted version of the original so if the original disappears I have a copy. Typically I wouldn't delete it following the original, but would make it a private post only visible to me.
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Zegnat I think it depends a lot on the context. If the embed is purely meant as a share of the original, probably remove it. If it is simply meant as a quote of something you said and I reacted to as part of public discourse, probably alright to keep it.
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KartikPrabhu what if it is a reply-context?
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Loqi http://meme.loqi.me/m/4vx_9AjA.jpg
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KartikPrabhu if you delete the reply-context then your reply makes no sense most likely
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sknebel yeah. I guess it depends? in many cases I'd be fine with just hiding the entire thing, but somethimes replies might be "important" I might want to keep them public for their content
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KartikPrabhu maybe a "deleted by author" warning is good
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@danielsouza ↩️ This is a brilliant idea with potential to solve this problem, but needs a lot of effort in order to remove all the nerdiness https://indieweb.org (twitter.com/_/status/1029467640534851584)
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petermolnar reading back
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petermolnar !tell [jgmac1106] I'm genuinely curious why online communities are so important in small towns, given f2f is not that hard to do in them (talking about experience, even in a city of 150k, real life communities are much stronger here)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@bradenslen New Aperture WordPress Plugin for Indieweb: https://ramblinggit.com/2018/08/new-aperture-wordpress-plugin-for-indieweb/ (twitter.com/_/status/1029476007789715457)
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "Indieweb.xyz: Difficult or Silo?" https://www.kickscondor.com/2018/08/14/indieweb-xyz-difficult-or-silo/
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@mattmcmanus ↩️ Excellent. I’m starting a list of things to work through. I’ve gone down the openid path before and found it to be less than ideal, but maybe things have changed. My current reading/todo list is here: https://www.evernote.com/l/AAIUbrgKXaNG0oioyf6f5A_7JlBShO8GuEw (twitter.com/_/status/1029498025482379264)
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[jgmac1106] @petermolnar they are small but in many small towns <10k the local media doesn't exist, if you sell something you go to Facebook, want to debate new budget, Facebook many businesses don't have websites just facebook
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[jgmac1106] f2f is possible but looking for networked knowledge harder, if I need help with chickens I know plenty of people but will they be home, want to know what is really going on in town have to go to the dump on Saturdays
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gRegorLove If I need help with chickens, I ask benwerd
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tantek__ indeed
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[jgmac1106] Why I had to mention it, need to do post on losing networks when quitting silos but you find better ones.. Like here
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