#indieweb 2018-10-07

2018-10-07 UTC
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KartikPrabhu what is reader?
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Loqi A reader (AKA indie reader or social reader) in the context of the indieweb is the portion/feature integrated into an indieweb site that provides a way to read content from other indieweb sites, possibly including posts from the current site, and respond (like, comment, repost, etc) inline in the reading UI itself https://indieweb.org/reader
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KartikPrabhu Old_Man: ^
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KartikPrabhu yup. we try to document actual usage
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aaronpk the #microformats channel gets pretty active at times, just not every day like this one :) https://chat.indieweb.org/microformats/2018-09-29
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Old_Man So if I'd been reading various web pages and github feature requests and such, and noticed a trend that people want to work around Google's proprietariness by creating OpenStreetMap-based traffic reporting alternatives...
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Old_Man One way I might like to approach that is by letting people contribute simple dtg/lat/long/speed documents to a central repository.
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cweiske I see that the "Code of Conduct" is linked at https://indieweb.org/2018/Nuremberg#Participating
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cweiske Am I required to sign it to be able to attend?
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Zegnat cweiske, no, the online signing is more symbollic. Though at the event the CoC will be pointed out again as the one that governs the event.
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cweiske then I guess I'm out
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Zegnat At least, that has become the norm and I see no reason why jkphl would deviate
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Zegnat Any specific issues with the CoC?
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Zegnat checks the feedback pae
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cweiske I generally do not want CoCs
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cweiske just like I don't sign CLAs or NDAs
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Zegnat That’s going to make attending events a lot harder. I’ve seen more and more of them adding CoCs or similar documents. It feels mostly to make organisers feel empowered to act against bad behaviour, imho.
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cweiske organizers have a house right and may banish people anyway
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cweiske also, there is something called "law"
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Zegnat https://indieweb.org/code-of-conduct-why :)
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Zegnat (I hadn’t actually read that page before, reading now, haha)
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cweiske tantek cites one post of one person to show that it's a good thing
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cweiske I don't think so
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Zegnat https://indieweb.org/IndieWebCamp#During also states “as part of [the introductions] show and present the code of conduct, also point out points of contact.” So it is fair to say the CoC will be brought in somehow at the Nürnberg event.
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Zegnat Would love it if you could add your feedback to https://indieweb.org/code-of-conduct-feedback. Afraid I do not have a lot to add to this discussion as I really haven’t looked into it :( You could always try #indieweb-meta during US daylight hours.
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jeremycherfas I'm very much on the fence about the detailed nature of the CoC, but I come at it from what may well be a position of privilege. One problem I see is that something not specifically mentioned as forbidden may be taken to be allowed. I'd far rather see something based on Do unto others ...
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jeremycherfas But I also appreciate that that leaves a lot of leeway to people who claim they wouldn't mind having inflicted on them what they inflict on others.
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jeremycherfas There is law, and there is common sense, and in the end it is a private event in a private location. So while I am not going to sign up, I am also going to behave as well as I can and hope that others do the same.
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cweiske jeremycherfas++, good explanation
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Loqi jeremycherfas has 7 karma in this channel over the last year (23 in all channels)
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jeremycherfas Also, I hope to see you there cweiske
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[Rose] I've seen a lot of events implementing a code of conduct and specifically stating what behaviour is acceptable which as a female in a predominantly male environment is definitely welcome. It's good from my point of view for it to be clear in advance what will not be tolerated to attendees and the event holders
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jeremycherfas Rose++
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Loqi Rose has 1 karma in this channel over the last year (2 in all channels)
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[Rose] (Which I've just seen is documented in the why page)
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[Rose] I'd also note that while in general the vast majority of people are extremely well behaved the minority that are not really do ruin experiences - for everyone. Thankfully everyone I've encountered here has been wonderful and I fully expect that trend to continue - as such the code of conduct is "we're documenting how we're behaving" rather than "people suck and have to follow this" here (in my experience, again)
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jeremycherfas That is my exact feeling about this particular group.
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[Rose] Well that's a good sign!
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cweiske so are there CoCs that say that people may not spit at other people?
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Zegnat No clue. The IndieWeb one tries to encourage the dos, not the donts.
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cweiske If a CoC tries to define what people are allowed to do, it will never be complete (e.g. nobody says breathing is allowed)
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sknebel luckily CoCs don't try to exhaustively list what's allowed to do
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cweiske so CoC is because people think that laws and common sense are not enough=
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cweiske ?
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jeremycherfas Laws are definitely not enough, because they are slow and often ineffective, and the people responsible for administering the laws may have a vested interest in some of the behaviour that is being complained about. Common sense would be fine, if we all shared the same idea of what constitutes good sense.
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jeremycherfas I understand your concerns, but how would you feel if I just started shouting "Of course we need a CoC, you're an idiot if you can't see that, and you're probably ugly too"? None of which is against the law. But it isn't very kind or welcoming.
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jeremycherfas And the thing I said earlier about "people who claim they wouldn't mind having inflicted on them what they inflict on others" has two problems. First, it degenerates into a fight that solves nothing and, as [Rose] said, disrupts for everyone. And secondly, it is mostly untrue. The one thing bullies of any kind cannot stand is being stood up to. And mostly they are bullies.
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cweiske this implies that there are people who think that this shout would be good sense
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cweiske so a CoC is there because it's easier to ban people based on written text than to ban them based on common sense?
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[Rose] If it's in writing they cannot complain they didn't know when they were banned
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jeremycherfas It does, because there are.
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jeremycherfas Exactly.
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[Rose] As someone who has been managing online communities for years unless you have rules to point to it quickly descends into a "you're banning me because you hate me" fest if there isn't something like that
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sknebel it's also a commitment by the event organiser to other participants that they will actually make use of their "hausrecht"
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jeremycherfas And like all the best contracts, you hope for the best but plan for the worst.
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[Rose] Seconding both of those statements
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[Rose] Best case scenario: we never need to think about the CoC and everyone acts nicely and is happy. Worst case scenario: well, let's not think about that.
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cweiske I wish I would not have to think about the CoC, but I had because it is written on the Nuremberg page
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jeremycherfas And in doing that, cweiske, you are probably ahead of most other people. I mean, I knew about the CoC and I remember it being mentioned last year, but I had not read any changes or signed up. And I won't sign because that is just a gesture, and I am not big on gestures. I prefer to just act.
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[Rose] If there were no CoC, I wouldn't be attending
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jeremycherfas You should document that, somewhere.
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[Rose] Just need to find the right place, probably on the why page
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Loqi I agree
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[Rose] Good Loqi
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Zegnat Had to drop out for lunch. Note that topics like this are probably better discussed in #indieweb-meta as to not discourage people finding the IndieWeb to chime up and ask questions on this channel.
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Zegnat [Rose] it would be much appreciated to document your thoughts on the wiki! (As would cweiske’s thoughts!) /code-of-conduct-why as well as /code-of-conduct-feedback are good places to add thoughts.
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[jgmac1106] I would say, "Avoid demeaning, discriminatory, harassing, hateful, or physically threatening behavior, speech, and imagery." coves "Do Not Spit on People"
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cweiske so Rose is attending the event because it's easier to ban people.
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[jgmac1106] heading to meta
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cweiske the main problem is that all the adjectives defining respectful behavior are subjective - because their meaning is defined by ones common sense
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cweiske one person may find something "demeaning" that another may not
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[Rose] #indieweb-meta is where the discussion is now 😉
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cweiske I'm done with it anyway
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[jgmac1106] thx, if you have concerns, there is a place to put them
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sknebel https://twitter.com/AntoineAugusti/status/1048600809091596293
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@AntoineAugusti I've requested my personal data from @trainline_fr thanks to #GDPR and I've decided to take 1 hour to visualise how I travel by train. First, 👏 to Trainline: they send you a very complete JSON (mine had 100k lines). See what I've done with it and what I visualised ⤵️ #data (twitter.com/_/status/1048600809091596293)
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[TimApple] I'm a big mastodon user... I'm wondering if the best way to indiefie (can I coin that term) mastodon is to just run my own instance for myself. Don't know if it's necessary, but hosting yourself is pretty cheap. If I lost my stuff, it would be my own darn fault.
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Zegnat Indiewebify.me is a thing, so you might be late to the coining party, [TimApple]
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[TimApple] lol
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Zegnat Selfhosting it definitely gets you to own your own data, and the ability to put it on your own domain to also own the identity. Definitely something recommendable imho
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aaronpk if you're tied to the mastodon software then yeah that's gonna be the best option, or at least pay the $5/mo to that company that will host one for you so you can point your domain to it
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[TimApple] That's what I was planning [aaronpk]
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Zegnat aaronpk do you mean masto.host?
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aaronpk that sounds right
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[TimApple] Yeah, I was looking at them.. 5 euro isn't bad.. And for me by myself should be ok on the smallest instance
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Zegnat They host IndieWeb.me. Seems like good people.
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aaronpk hm there isn't really anything about that on https://indieweb.org/HTTPS
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vilhalmer I think TLS as implemented in the CA model is inherently anti-indieweb, it requires a third-party for trust
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aaronpk add a note about that on the criticism section on that page?
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vilhalmer good idea
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vilhalmer I continue to wish that Convergence had gone anywhere https://web.archive.org/web/20160803195327/http://convergence.io/
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vilhalmer it would also be nice if browsers distinguished "private" from "secure" but I understand why they don't
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vilhalmer tls combines identity and privacy in a way that it doesn't really need to
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vilhalmer *tls+cas
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vilhalmer it would be cool to come up with a way that indieweb sites could vouch for the authenticity of each others' certificates
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vilhalmer it's a tricky problem though, because you have to look at the page you aren't sure if you trust in order to find out who you should ask about that trust
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vilhalmer ssh also requires an out of band transfer of the key
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vilhalmer that's the thing that TLS has to avoid
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Old_Man Which isn't out of the question for me.
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vilhalmer it isn't widely used because it's way too hard for most users :)
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vilhalmer including me
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Old_Man We could work on automating more of that, I think.
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vilhalmer people keep trying to fix it but you can only do so much when bolting stuff on an existing system
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vilhalmer keybase probably did the best
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vilhalmer but there's a third party again
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Old_Man I mean isn't there a commonly-implemented server-to-server encryption layer now?
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vilhalmer pgp servers you mean?
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Old_Man No, SMTP servers encrypting now.
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Old_Man I forget what it's called... let me google...
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vilhalmer I think that uses TLS
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vilhalmer the big ones might pin each others' certs to avoid the tofu problem
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vilhalmer of course, you always have to trust SOMEONE
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vilhalmer you have to do some sort of cert pinning if you want to know that you really are talking to the same person each time
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vilhalmer which would be a cool thing to crowd-source like convergence tried to do
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vilhalmer "what cert do you see for this domain"
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vilhalmer yep
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vilhalmer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sender_Policy_Framework
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Old_Man One of those
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vilhalmer it's not really encryption, just verification
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Old_Man Ahh, okay, yeah, I think so.
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vilhalmer SMTP has STARTTLS which can be blocked by a man in the middle
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vilhalmer but that's what happens when you bolt it on after the fact
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Old_Man ...invisibly to users who don't want to learn it.
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vilhalmer convergence did that well, you only had to configure who to trust if you really wanted to change it
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vilhalmer it was vulnerable to sybil attacks though
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vilhalmer a sufficiently powerful attacker can become a big enough portion of the network that they can drown out legitimate trust anchors
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vilhalmer which again comes down to tofu
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vilhalmer not currently
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vilhalmer I'm a bit of a tourist at the moment :)
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Old_Man I think those both provide encryption natively at a lower layer.
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vilhalmer been busy on other projects
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vilhalmer cjdns is interesting
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Zegnat So many words in my backlog that assume knowledge of terms like DKIM / DMARC / SPF / Tor / WoT / TOFU / ... This conversation was probably better had on #indieweb-dev or another less front-facing channel :)
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vilhalmer I was just thinking that, heh
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Zegnat Just for future consideration - we really *want* to get better on keeping jargon out of this channel and making it more welcoming to others to join in on the talks
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vilhalmer will do
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[jgmac1106] [TimApple] [christophe] has an instance indieweb.me build primarily for French audiences but also for just hacking on with IndieWeb stuff
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aaronpk I just realized I don't really have an "about" page
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aaronpk I have a page with my bio that I use for conference talks, but that's really just a bio and not an "about" page
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Old_Man So as far as decentralization technologies go, apparently there's another one called "InterPlanetary FileSystem (IPFS)". It's a decentralized file-storage protocol, that might be interesting as a distributed content management system. Anybody give that a try yet?
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aaronpk what is IPFS?
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Loqi IPFS is short for InterPlanetary File System, potentially a static site storage method using content based addressing https://indieweb.org/IPFS
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Old_Man Ooh, a wiki page on that too. Cool.
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tantek__ Old_Man, haven't used it myself, though maybe ask about "technologies" in #indieweb-dev?
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tantek__ What personal use-case are you looking to solve?
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Zegnat What would be on a personal about page, aaronpk?
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Zegnat What is about?
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aaronpk Zegnat: like your profile page
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aaronpk I don't even have anywhere to add more detailed information like yours
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Zegnat Ah
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Zegnat I think I might propose a quantified self / profile page session in Nürnberg. I need ideas, and would love to inspire others :D
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tantek__ what is a profile?
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Loqi Your homepage represents you on the web, typically at the top of your domain, with your name and an iconic representation, often marked up with h-card, and fairly commonly one or more streams of recent, topical, or most relevant posts marked up with h-entry https://indieweb.org/profile
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aaronpk https://indieweb.org/about
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Old_Man tantek, no "personal" use-case, but I like more-decentralized and federated technologies like email and bittorrent. Diaspora for social networking.
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Old_Man IRC for chatting. :)
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Zegnat I do not actually have a note-sized blurb on my page, as described on /about, haha
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Old_Man followed a few links to arrive at details of "filecoin" that seems to be replacing "siacoin" as a decentralized storage network with economic incentives for longevity.
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[Rose] Sign me up for that session Zegnat
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tantek__ Zegnat, sounds like an out of date entry - go ahead and update it
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Zegnat No, I mean the page specified p-note in its “guidelines” for an about page. And I do not have it.
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Zegnat I am not on that page at all, which is funny in itself, when you know what my page looks like
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tantek__ Old_Man, yeah, in general for technology centric discussions, #indieweb-dev is better
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