#indieweb 2019-01-22
2019-01-22 UTC
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chrisaldrich Ugh... [eddie] @jgmac1106, et al. I may not be able to make the call tonight. There's been a last minute soccer coach cancellation, and I'm on the hook to fill in. I'll see if I can manage to catch/listen to part, but it will depend on coverage.
# chrisaldrich Sorry for the last minute notice...
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "🔖 Personal sites are awesome" https://personalsit.es (from https://boffosocko.com/2019/01/21/personal-sites-are-awesome/)
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petermolnar good morning
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noorul[m] <freenode_aar "I was always hesitant to expand "> Hi Aaron,
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# noorul[m] Hello IndieWeb members,
# noorul[m] I like to be connected users who set up web mention with static page instead of Known or WP plugin
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# petermolnar noorul[m]: most of us with static pages use some kind of service, eg webmention.io which we query on build
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# noorul[m] <freenode_pet "noorul: most of us with static p"> That's relief to know.
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# noorul[m] I am very much keen to know what are your existing work flow for using Webmention with static site.
# noorul[m] I usually, edit html rather than using a generator.
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[kevinmarks] other options: webmention.herokuapp.com and https://mention.tech/
# noorul[m] petermolnar: may I access to your site ?
# [kevinmarks] mention.tech is mine and needs better documentation
# petermolnar who is petermolnar?
# petermolnar eh, I still haven't put that together well enough on the wiki
# noorul[m] <freenode_[ke "mention.tech is mine and needs b"> Please consider a better UI too
# petermolnar noorul[m]: these our tools for ourselves - in this case, for [kevinmarks] -, so if it's good enough for him, it's good enough for him :)
# [kevinmarks] ui is not the strong point of my tools, it is true
# noorul[m] <freenode_[ke "ui is not the strong point of my"> Wish you could find time to make it good soon
# [kevinmarks] lol at the youtube video embedded in there
# noorul[m] <freenode_pet "eh, I still haven't put that tog"> "Homepage is old phrase" that's good one, Peter
# noorul[m] <freenode_[ke "lol at the youtube video embedde"> What is the option, mention all links ?
# [kevinmarks] mention all links takes a post url and sends webmentions for every link in the h-entry
# petermolnar ah, that's matrix, that explains the weird look
# noorul[m] sknebel yes, u r right. Using matrix. I avoid replying to individual msg 👍
# noorul[m] Kevin, basicially mention all links take source link to gather all mentions and send to all?
# noorul[m] sknebel welcome
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# [kevinmarks] yes, that's it.
# [kevinmarks] there are other tools that do that
# [kevinmarks] what is telegraph?
# Loqi Telegraph is an open source API and service for sending webmentions, part of the p3k suite https://indieweb.org/Telegraph
# petermolnar ^^^ I use this to send
# noorul[m] I am stuck here. I've static page with micro format and list of replies to various Website (Web mentions to a few site)
# noorul[m] So I simply access Online Webmention tool to send the mentions?
# [kevinmarks] yes
# petermolnar with telegraph, you need to manually - or via api - input the url
# petermolnar the from and to
# petermolnar and it does the sending
# noorul[m] Then I've mentions coming from Twitter and other sites. I am clueless what is workflow how to retrive webmentions list (json format or any) to my static site ?
# noorul[m] Manually copy individual Webmentions ?
# petermolnar you have multiple ways to deal with it
# petermolnar for example: you could import them from the source
# petermolnar alternatively you use webmention.io, get the json, format it, and either embed it during your build or write process or on the fly, via javascript
# [kevinmarks] you could use javascript to fetch them
# [kevinmarks] https://tumblelog.xyz/ has a script to do that
# noorul[m] Peter, I used Telegraph and Webmention.io last 3 days and disappointed to send one target url at time. I concluded I chose Webmention wrongly
# noorul[m] It's suck relief Kevin tool solve that problem. Thanks to him for coming mention.tech
# [kevinmarks] that is the script I modified
# petermolnar my use case: I have a decent amount of posts in markdown and a python script which rakes it together into a website. During this process, at first, in the beginning, I query webmention.io for any new webmentions as save them locally. After the build and the upload to my server, I poke telegraph with all the URLs I collected during the build that needs sending. Once the send is done, I save a file with the telegraph response about it, s
# petermolnar o I don't have to send it any more, unless my source file is updated.
# [kevinmarks] depending on how you wan them to look
# [kevinmarks] on kevinmarks.com I use the script from webmention.herokuapp.com which is a bit more advanced (in that it does dynamic updates too)
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jeremycherfas Good morning IndieWeb
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# noorul[m] Cool! Thanks Peter & Kevin.
# noorul[m] I dig more about these work flow and script and get back here later
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# [xavierroy] Should we start a Static Site Generators channel for this?
# petermolnar that sounds like an overkill
# petermolnar -wordpress exists because wordpress is still one of the simplest choices
# petermolnar we have -dev, where this most probably should take place
# noorul[m] I am using Pleroma which has ActivityPub.
# noorul[m] I've been trying to mention IndieWeb on Pleroma/Mastodon but failed.
# petermolnar noorul[m]: https://fed.brid.gy/
# noorul[m] Only https://aaronparecki.com/ has support to be mentioned on ActivityPub. Does any has clue whethed IndieWeb support for ActivityPub, WebFingering ?
# petermolnar check the page I linked, please
# noorul[m] Damn! There is support ActivityPub 🤩🤩🤩🤩
# noorul[m] Thank you Peter! 👌
# petermolnar yw :)
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# petermolnar thank it to snarfed though, he's behind brid.gy
# noorul[m] snarfed , hail you!
# [kevinmarks] pleroma doesn't usually have html posts to fetch, so hard to webmention from. Mastodon has good mf2 markup on posts
# [kevinmarks] this should maybe be in #dev
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[jgmac1106] being able to display webmetions on my static site and all my courses is my next goal, right now just collecting webmentions with webmentions.io
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# noorul[m] kevin 🤔 this is disappointing
# petermolnar what is js;dr?
# Loqi js;dr is JavaScript required; Didn’t Read https://indieweb.org/js;dr
# jeremycherfas The bridge from Slack to IRC seems to be malfunctioning for the Known channel. I see comments from Slack users in https://chat.indieweb.org/known/2019-01-22 but not in IRC.
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# jeremycherfas Thanks sknebel
# sknebel !tell aaronpk: also, isn't Loqi supposed to voice people from /chat-names?
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# [kevinmarks] We did get mastodon to add good mf2 markup, we could try filing issues for pleroma too
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# noorul[m] <freenode_[ke "We did get mastodon to add good "> [kevinmarks]: yes, we can do that.
# hs0ucy We can make some PRs instead of create issues.
# hs0ucy Pleroma team uses GitLab, so it's more MRs then PRs ;) I think it would be that repo https://git.pleroma.social/pleroma/pleroma-fe
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# [kevinmarks] if you do make a PR, add tests like mastodon did - parse the output for mf2 - that meant that it didn;t get broken later.
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# noorul[m] IndieWeb is so interesting that this is my 4th conservative days to dig about it.
# noorul[m] It's cool to keep learn about it but little overwhelming with vast information and time consumed for starting up
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# [kevinmarks] you can take it bit by bit - each of the components add something
# hs0ucy noorul[m] [kevinmarks] For me what it's hard is to understand all the concepts in all protocols ... for example WebSub.
# noorul[m] sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/OvSAloNuZweDUQsIdvplKqYm >
# noorul[m] hs0ucy I am drawing a mind map for all these moving parts, number of apps, protocols etc etc.
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# hs0ucy noorul[m]: +1
# noorul[m] I wonder is there way to "implement" like or share of a remote post on our site. Only reply is possible with Web mention, right?
# noorul[m] Am I missing that part?
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# noorul[m] I mean, can we send a "like" to a remote post and appear , "Noorul liked this" on remote
# hs0ucy noorul[m]: yes ... but the target should accept webmention ... or you need to use something like bridgy who translate it with the target API
# hs0ucy https://brid.gy/about#what
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# Loqi Post or posts may refer to individual pieces of content published on an indieweb site such as notes, articles, & responses, or the act of creating the aforementioned content (present tense), or Posts about the IndieWeb https://indieweb.org/Post_Types
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# hs0ucy sknebel: ok ... it's confusing sometimes for me.
# noorul[m] sknebel that's better.
# noorul[m] I get start playing with it various property
# petermolnar when you say "like or share of a remote post on our site" I believe you're looking for micropub
# petermolnar what is micropub
# Loqi Micropub is an open API standard (W3C Recommendation) that is used to create, update, and delete posts on one's own domain using third-party clients, and supersedes both MetaWeblog and AtomPub https://indieweb.org/Micropub
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# noorul[m] petermolnar MicroPub is interesting and like to have too.
# noorul[m] I asked for send "Webmention" to a remote post to show I liked instead of my reply/comment.
# noorul[m] Sknebe l recommended to use microformate to achieve that
# petermolnar ah, right, I misunderstood the question. Yes, you need to mark up your like post in a certain way, so the remote end understands it.
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# snarfed [cleverdevil]'s two reposts on https://aaronparecki.com/2019/01/21/33/monthly-summary#responses are now 410, but still visible
# Loqi aaronpk: sknebel left you a message 3 hours, 19 minutes ago: also, isn't Loqi supposed to voice people from /chat-names?
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# jeremycherfas Speaking personally, the only time I ever look at IG stories is when I have absolutely nothing else to do. Pure desperation. I can accept that for other people that kind of feature promotes FOMO, and I can only marvel at that.
# jeremycherfas Wouldn't that be even mnore FOMO-inducing?
# petermolnar I'm trying to justify the existence of such content on the personal level - time or view limited; so far, I can't. If I think if real life - as a one-time-event analogy -, if I show some printed photos to someone, and they ask me to see it again, I'm probably ok with that request.
# petermolnar actually... that might be an option. time or view limited, but re-visit approved on request.
# jeremycherfas IG stories have become even worse since they allowed advertisers in, of course.
# petermolnar (there are ads in ig stories?!)
# jeremycherfas Desperation, I tell you.
# jeremycherfas Now that's an idea. I do know a couple of people who seem to post the same image to both their feed and their stories on IG.
# petermolnar aaronpk: re the first, from the publisher site - that is usually due to limitations, like a concert or a tour of a certain album from a band, in my opinion. An actual one-off thing. re second: on personal sites, it's just presentation, isn't it?
# petermolnar by the time I wrote it down, the two of you wrote readers, that gives it context
# petermolnar I missed that angle
# petermolnar in a reader, you have might people mixed up in a group/stream; if you visit somebody's site, that site's features could include that grouped-by-person instead of a stream easily
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# [smerrill] but there’s no way to make something not permanent. archive.org, scrapers, humans screenshotting, etc.
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# [Vincent] There was an article the Guardian ran a few years ago related to this. Trying to dig it up. Teens in general prefer stuff happening “right now” and don’t want to be reminded of cringeworthy or stuff that could be used against them later for job interviews etc. So they favour stuff that is semi-permanent.
# [jgmac1106] stories sound like a collection with a delete button
# [jgmac1106] buit you can you stop a post going to a reader
# [jgmac1106] or have a u-story-of or something a reader knows to dlete it
# [jgmac1106] hypothetical, something that says, hey if someone follows ths delete Xttime after opening or simply X timei get that automated delete button, its the reader
# petermolnar back on the question of ephemeral content from the publisher perspective - aaronpk, you said you understand the usefulness it, can you give me an example when it's a better solution to post ephemeral content to broad audience, than sending a pm to those you want to see it?
# petermolnar sure, but if you don't know your audience, and you post planned-to-be-ephemeral (the teen example above) - do you trust them they won't archive it?
# petermolnar I may have not chosen the best wording
# petermolnar I have trouble getting a reason/usexase for ephemeral content, broadcasted to an unknown audience, via open web
# petermolnar the point of IG stories, as discussed at the beginning, is to glue people to IG
# [smerrill] petermolnar++
# petermolnar btw, don't get me wrong, I actually get the usefulness of ephemeral content, but not necessarily the ephemeral on the open web
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# petermolnar oh, in that case, sure, it does make sense
# jeremycherfas Maybe this is something pixelfed could integrate?
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[grantcodes] Not read the whole backfeed, but on the stories thing I could totally see a micropub client that posts something and then after x amount of time sends an update request to delete or unlist it
# jeremycherfas In other words, you don't try and put them on your own site with some sort of special mark-up, you share to pixelfed and let that handle expiry
# jeremycherfas How so [eddie] ?
# [grantcodes] Aaronpk: for sure, just a thought. Also I keep seeing zuck.js and find it funny every time
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# jeremycherfas I backfeed from IG to my site with OYG, so all my IG photos are on my asite, but not all the photos on my site are on IG. I can imagine a mechanism that makes ephemeral hotos hidden on my site, but available for a set period somewheere else.
# petermolnar reading on zuck.js, turns out it's actually a thing, I never hear of it - https://ramon.codes/projects/zuck.js/ -, sees 3D cube effect, gets reminded of compiz Cube
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# petermolnar stories - ephemeral, time limited gallery, with fancy effects
# jeremycherfas There's always something else to do.
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# [jgmac1106] I really want an HTML5 remix machine for my stories
# noorul[m] Is "Stories" new thing just started or users already using it?
# noorul[m] Like to check out your stories if it already using
# 
[eddie] if you go to https://aaronparecki.com/ and click on his circle photo with the color circle around it, it should show a single photo that is on his story right now
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# noorul[m] [eddie] great!
# noorul[m] I am using WhatsApp status regularly to post updates which last 24 hours and keep track of how many people view it.
# noorul[m] Excited for such feature with IndieWeb but not sure how it will be relevent for site
# [jgmac1106] heck for now, I could do a p-note in my h-card and use another class and an opacity timer set to 24 hours.
# [jgmac1106] but stories for me needs to be an explosion of multimedia in an IndieWeb friendly way...I loved the way Mozilla Popcorn
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# [jgmac1106] "It's not text persay, it's photos/video with text overlays" difference between a post, article, or collection IMO, and maybe navigational features to mark the beginning, middle, end of usual narrative structures
# noorul[m] Yes, WhatsApp status is name for WhatsApp "stories"
# noorul[m] It was introduced over 1-2 years ago copying snapchat.
# noorul[m] Then followed by Facebook stories
# Loqi ok, I added "[[MVP]]" to the "See Also" section of /Category:jargon https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=55798&oldid=50647
# noorul[m] Just 1 input, since stories are timed based, it's not easy to visit sites or any method effective.
# noorul[m] Stories have to push to followers so an user can able to view all of following stories in one go.
# noorul[m] 👌
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# noorul[m] You know how I am feeling now about this potential new feature.
# noorul[m] Welcoming but unexcited.
# noorul[m] The reason is that you , developers get together and try to "invent" new feature fulfil each other needs.
# [jgmac1106] @noorul[m] can you note a successful modern web technology that is still around that didn't start this way?
# snarfed noorul[m] you may also be interested in https://indieweb.org/generations
# noorul[m] I am suggesting if some effort can be put to make IndieWeb work out of box or much simple workflow.
# noorul[m] Sure, many of you can disagree to this statement. But this is only time I can make it'
# noorul[m] Because, a month later, I will be well versed with this platform and I will never bring up how a new comer may feel
# [jgmac1106] we are well versed in newcomer feelings, though those anxiety common in any open spurce space, still we could make it more inviting
# [jgmac1106] that is a dangerous side effect of the https://indieweb.org/generations model
# noorul[m] Sure, a new feature to be welcome. I simply stated the way I feel right now.
# noorul[m] This way I see will faded after a week
# [jgmac1106] our job to make onboarding easier, the wiki should be going through major overhaul soon splitting it into turn key, a bit of work, and roll your own engineering
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# [jgmac1106] [eddie] I may have or may not have made the challenge for a hackathon I am organizing to revole around build story making tools: https://jgmac1106homepage.glitch.me/femhackgrant.html
# [jgmac1106] this will be a hackathon for young women running parallel with IWC New Haven
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# [jgmac1106] not what you and [aaronpk] were discussing but to me the writing of the story more important to solve than figuring out how to make it disappear
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# chrisaldrich Remember that the idea of timed stories disappearing is a silo dark pattern meant to create fear of missing out and get users to come back on a frequent basis.
# chrisaldrich Perhaps the better IndieWeb way of framing things is to work on private posts and audience or geofencing?
# chrisaldrich I scrolled back, but only about half the morning...
# chrisaldrich And in part because I was thinking about IndieWeb as a service this morning...
# chrisaldrich What is IndieWeb as a Service?
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "IndieWeb as a Service" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "IndieWeb as a Service is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# chrisaldrich Obviously micro.blog is doing it almost whole-hog, but then there are things like webmentions.io....
# chrisaldrich Can anyone think of others? Disqus does comments as a service, but obviously not in an IndieWeb way...
# snarfed pants (RIP), all of the multi user projects on https://indieweb.org/projects eg dobrado
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# chrisaldrich It's certainly a broad spectrum depending on the level of service being offered, and even more so depending on one's level of sophistication.
# chrisaldrich Perhaps having an overview page with some examples may be helpful to spread knowledge and potentially create some competition and plurality in some of these areas.
# chrisaldrich We certainly don't want to recreate /projects...
# snarfed chrisaldrich: https://indieweb.org/web_hosting
# chrisaldrich I'm thinking about something closer to the idea of what Disqus does for Comments. Sadly it doesn't have much competition so it's bloated and slow.
# chrisaldrich or someone thinking: "I want feature X, but don't have the time or inclination to build that piece of plumbing."
# chrisaldrich ...widgetized IndieWeb anyone?
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# snarfed ah ok hosted building blocks. https://indieweb.org/Category:building-blocks then
# chrisaldrich I'm also thinking about ways we could help to create business opportunities and spaces for hosting companies, developers, etc. to move into these spaces to increase audience uptake, but also without going down the siloed cowpaths...
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# chrisaldrich or to put it into "snarfed terms" building a bridge from what we've got to a broader base, but one which has a paying userbase to support it all. ;)
# chrisaldrich micro.blog seems closest, but it would be nice to have one or two more
# chrisaldrich If you and aaronpk weren't so big-hearted or so time pressured, there might be a few more smaller subscription services.
# chrisaldrich [eddie] is there a page for proposing sessions for IWC Online after last night? I've got a proposal or two...
# [jgmac1106] [chrisaldrich] I was looking at weebly themes and weebly plugins over the weekend as that has become a dominant bridge for teachers... I think a mf2 theme and IndieWeb plugins quite doable... But won't play for long time
# Loqi Weebly is a web hosting service with a drag and drop website builder with guided set up to help Generation 3 and 4 people create a personal website with no coding needed https://indieweb.org/Weebly
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# [chrisaldrich] [jgmac1106] Are you seeing higher ed people using Weebly? I've seen a lot of it in the k-12 space and a very small smattering in higher ed
# [chrisaldrich] I haven't delved into Weebly, but it would be cool to do an IWC hackathon to see what we IW principles we could build on top of it for teachers (and others).
# [chrisaldrich] [eddie] I couldn't tell from last night if there were plans for doing all that in etherpad, wiki, and/or both
# [chrisaldrich] excellent
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# [jgmac1106] [jgmac1106] I would say majority of new teacher blogs coming out on three platforms Weebly, Seesaw, and wix
# [jgmac1106] Seesaw about student data protection, no need to approach, but Weebly I really think the way their templates and plugins work we could make an mf2 and use existing Indieeweb (..well someone could..I could just do the templates)
# noorul[m] A quick question, is there microformat or method to delete webmention like-of
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# [jgmac1106] what is mustache?
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "mustache" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "mustache is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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# [jgmac1106] I didn't know what it was=, was hionestly asking Loqi
# [jgmac1106] it was used everywhere as if mustache was a common framework
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# [jgmac1106] ...purrrfect then you can help us make some IndieWeb themes
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# [jgmac1106] same here, kitchen be backed up with tickets out the door
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# snarfed huh, http://portablecontacts.net is back
# 
[tantek] snarfed, still a zombie AFAIK https://indieweb.org/site-deaths#Portable_Contacts
# [tantek] yeah. more here https://indieweb.org/Portable_Contacts
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# 
bradenslen Good Morning Indieweb
# bradenslen hi snarfed
# bradenslen !tell chrisaldrich Indieweb as a service sounds great. An indieweb replacement for Disqus would be wonderful.
# snarfed https://webmention.herokuapp.com/ is pretty close
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# bradenslen Thanks snarfed. Nice find.
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