#indieweb 2019-08-29

2019-08-29 UTC
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aaronpk hm mobile iOS app still doesn't show the RT
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[tantek] here at HWC SF!
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GWG I miss HWCs
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Loqi misses HWCs too
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[tantek] with Dietrich and a couple of people
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[tantek] OH: "one person's random bullshit is another person's hobby."
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aaronpk lol that describes like everything I do
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mattdavis Hey that was fun, thanks for hosting @tantek
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[tantek] nice to meet you mattdavis! and welcome!
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jamietanna[m] Who's planning on coming to IWC Amsterdam? My partner and I were planning on going to IWC Oxford, but thought we'll stop over in Amsterdam for a couple of days post IWC for a break, as it's conference season
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[Rose] So, I'm considering splitting all my "personal" things into a subdomain. This would be basically everything that's not an article. Has anyone done this before and if so do they have any words of advice?
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bekomotion[m] Yeah. Use CNAME or you'll go crazy when migrating somewhere else 😉
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[Rose] Haha, I will 😄
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jeremycherfas Not quite that far, [Rose] but I do have micro stuff in a sub-domain. Depends what you mean by personal, I suppose.
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sknebel What makes the articles non-personal? The topics?
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[Rose] Yes, basically.
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[Rose] It's mostly that I want Instagram, Swarm, Notes, Photos, elsewhere - my lifestream as it is
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[jgmac1106] I do that, only articles (and I am adding select photos) https://jgregorymcverry.com and everything else at https://quickthoughs.jgregorymcverry.com
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[jgmac1106] Some people use micr.blog for their life stream as well and mantain a portfolio site asa homepage
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bekomotion[m] That's https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com with a t? Won't resolve without =)
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jgmac1106 sorry its early
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jgmac1106 and micro.blog obviously
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bekomotion[m] It's a long url. I'd mistype this all the time.
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jgmac1106 I should add my own url shortner
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Loqi yea
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jgmac1106 got to here, http://jgregorymcverry.com/shorten/ but it looks like with yourl I would need to own a second domain tto make it shorter…
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jgmac1106 purchasing another domain may also lead to the acquisition of a divorce lawyer,
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jgmac1106 jgm.ac would be $80 a year
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jgmac1106 jgmac1106.me is just $9 may do that
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jeremycherfas [Rose] would say you just make an automated snippet of it [jgmac1106]
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bekomotion[m] <jgmac1106 "purchasing another domain may al"> uh oh.. what did I start here? xD
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GWG I do .us
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GWG Why do you want a shortener?
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benharri short domains are nice
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jamietanna[m] [Rose] what if you had the content hidden by default? Or do you want to have it explicitly separate?
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jgmac1106 gwg because of these url tothese pdfs sometimes https://jgregorymcverry.com/readings
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GWG oh
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jgmac1106 and to save characters on micro,.blog or twitter for really long names like https://jgregorymcverry.com/questionthewebresearchplan.html
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jgmac1106 so now https://jgmac1106.me/home and https://jgmac1106.me/blog work
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jgmac1106 not super short but still “branded” I almost did jgmac but that felt so wrong since the 1106 has been following me since prodigy and then aol and then the web
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bekomotion[m] unexpected flashback
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jgmac1106 they said to stay away from the brown paper
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[tantek] moving "friends mode" here from meta thread that started here https://chat.indieweb.org/meta/2019-08-29#t1567042863255900
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Loqi [jackyalcine] Perks of a personal website with a friends mode #indieweb
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[tantek] "friends mode" is a *way* friendlier (so to speak) phrase than "private mode" or "private posts" etc.
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[tantek] aaronpk is right that "private" is also ambiguous and confusing, private to whom?
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[tantek] https://chat.indieweb.org/meta/2019-08-29#t1567062157582500
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Loqi [aaronpk] Yeah but less tech my speak
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[tantek] also I dislike "restricted" as it more like it is referring to a rating of the content like movie ratings, song lyrics etc.
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aaronpk oops that was supposed to say "techno speak"
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aaronpk thanks autocorrect
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[tantek] I figured
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[tantek] I agree the use of "private" or "protected" has jargonified a bit in various UXes
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[tantek] Swarm defaults to a sort of friends mode
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jgmac1106 private for me, means just me
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[grantcodes] I don't think private posts / mode is technical. But ambiguity is a problem
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jacky private can mean different things to people
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[tantek] ^^^ this
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[snarfed] ok https://granary.io/ front page now loudly points reader users to *-atom
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aaronpk [snarfed]++ now i won't forget about those :)
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Loqi [snarfed] has 31 karma in this channel over the last year (77 in all channels)
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[snarfed] (and IG is still semi-permanently disabled in the REST API)
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[snarfed] => #-dev
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[fluffy] Terminology around private/protected/restricted/friends-<only|mode> is so varied and I’d love to see some cohesion come about if only to stop it from being so ambiguous.
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[fluffy] I’m not a fan of anything that uses “friends” though, which I rambled about over on #indieweb-meta late last night (for me)
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[fluffy] https://chat.indieweb.org/meta/2019-08-29#t1567061382234200
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Loqi [[fluffy]] friends mode meaning private posts?
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[fluffy] on a similar terminology thing, clarity over the various kinds of ways of managing incoming notifications/subscriptions. Like “timeline” vs “inbox” vs… whatever else. I’ve seen some folks refer to what I think of as timeline UIs as an “inbox” for example.
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aaronpk ouch
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[fluffy] which makes no sense to me, like to me an inbox is a collection of stuff to handle, and it goes away when it’s been handled
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aaronpk right
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[fluffy] I wonder if that’s been distorted by the way that Google changes the way that inboxes work for email though 😛
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[fluffy] like “oh your inbox is just a stream of stuff and we’ll try to filter the stuff you care about into other folders, don’t worry about ever clearing your inbox it’s ‘infinite’”
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aaronpk if this is in the context of mastodon, then more likely an artifact of activitypub
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[fluffy] It’s in the context of IndieWeb in general. I remember having a confusing conversation about it here when I was talking about how FeedOnFeeds’ UX is compared to, say, Monocle.
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[fluffy] oh I guess Monocle is more inboxy than I realized
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aaronpk how so?
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[fluffy] you can set it to only show unread posts
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[fluffy] as opposed to, say, Tumblr, which is very very timeliney
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aaronpk ah yeah, i added that because some people requested it :) I don't use it that way
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aaronpk oh i guess i do sometimes use it to find unread posts if a ton come in and fill up the channel
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[fluffy] yeah I’m playing with Monocle right now and the UX is so far removed from how I want to deal with feed reading
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aaronpk interesting!
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aaronpk do you have any sketches of how you want it to work?
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[fluffy] but different preferences are why we have different readers 🙂
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aaronpk because hopefully it can still work with the same underlying spec
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[fluffy] Google Reader was pretty much perfect, as I recall.
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[fluffy] I stick with FeedOnFeeds because it was the closest thing I found to Google Reader which was also trivially self-hostable.
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[fluffy] FoF’s just a Good Enough UI for my uses
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[fluffy] but like, yeah. There’s a global inbox that shows only unread entries, which I can sort from oldest to newest (which makes it compatible with serial content), and which only marks stuff read when I tell it to, and there’s keyboard shortcuts to make that aspect easier accessibility-wise.
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[fluffy] and then you can filter based on specific feeds or on tags (although the tag UX is garbage)
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[fluffy] talking about FoF I mean
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aaronpk gotcha
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[fluffy] FoF also lets you re-export a sharing feed of your “starred” entries, which feels like a very rough prototype of micropub 🙂
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[fluffy] no ability to add comments though. That’s a thing I loved about Google REader
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[fluffy] and a thing I’m excited about for Micropub
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Loqi hey [fluffy], would you mind moving this conversation to #indieweb-dev? thanks!
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[fluffy] Yes Loqi, I would mind 😛
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aaronpk heh I *think* this conversation is still on topic here :)
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[fluffy] yeah I’m purposefully and specifically talking about the user story.
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[fluffy] oh god ‘story’ I’ve been infected by agile terminology
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jacky friends posts != private posts
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jacky eh, I might write a bit on it
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jacky but it'd be posts that only a particular set of people can view
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jacky more like protected
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jacky private has a weird ambiguity to it
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bekomotion[m] random trivia: The more I read [and try] about IndieWeb the more I feel like a kid in a candystore.
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jacky :)
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[grantcodes] [fluffy] together has a master detail view sort of reminiscent of google reader and others.
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[fluffy] Cool, where can I find that reader app with an unsearchable name?
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[fluffy] oh, https://indieweb.org/Together
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[fluffy] oh, looks like I’ve played with this one already
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[tantek] inbox-- is a really sadly regressive term IMO and means "email" and "work" and "pain"
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Loqi inbox has -3 karma over the last year
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[fluffy] okay yeah I remember trying Together. I wish it had a “sort by unread” mechanism.
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[tantek] it's such a poor framing
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[tantek] jacky, I agree private has weird ambiguity due to social media silo misuse / mislabeling of it IMO
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[grantcodes] I didn't think it was possible at the time but apparently aaronpk has done unread only
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[fluffy] and also a means of scrolling through items. Like I guess I do want a “timeline” but only of my unread posts.
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[fluffy] oh, and that’s exactly what “timeline” view does, huh
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[fluffy] … okay this is weird, Together shows arstechnica as belonging to/“being” someone named Kiona N. Smith who I’ve never heard of
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[grantcodes] That will probably be the author of the article no?
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[fluffy] no, it’s not the article author
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[fluffy] *every* arstechnica story is shown as *being* by this person
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jacky D:
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[fluffy] like arstechnica.com itself is being treated as Kiona N. Smith’s identity
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aaronpk is monocle showing the same?
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[snarfed] tries to find the old article from the google reader PM about reader UX religious wars
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[snarfed] ie how there are multiple incompatible reader UXes, and people often feel that their preferred one is the "right" one, and can't accept a different one
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[snarfed] ...which is ok! just means that no single reader UX can really serve all users
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[fluffy] monocle is showing each individual article as having its individual author
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[snarfed] eg stream vs inbox was one fundamental rift
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[fluffy] okay I guess Kiona N. Smith happens to be the author of the most recent arstechnica article
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[fluffy] https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/08/16000-year-old-site-in-idaho-indicates-people-sailed-around-the-ice-sheet/ - legit Kiona Smith article. and Monocle is displaying the author correctly, and also saying the article is from ars technica. Together is showing all articles as being “from” Kiona N. Smith, and not saying anything about it being ars technica.
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[fluffy] anyway that’s a together bug and I’ll report it accordingly 🙂
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[grantcodes] Yeah that's another thing there wasn't information on the source site with each post. But maybe that has changed now
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[fluffy] The feed clearly provides authorship information for each article that is correct.
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[fluffy] And the feed itself has a title/name.
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[grantcodes] Together has nothing to do with feeds. That's all on the server so it is strange. May well be a bug, but I have plenty of multi author feeds that are fine
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[fluffy] It’s appearing correctly in monocle with the same subscriptions.
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[fluffy] Anyway this is like tertiary at best to the on-topic part of the discussion. :)
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[fluffy] Is there an indieweb reader that provides a way of filtering based on individual feeds? Or is that even feasible with how Microsub channels are designed?
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[grantcodes] You mean only show posts from a single feed?
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aaronpk i added that to monocle recently :) it's a little hidden
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aaronpk but if you click on the author of a post in a timeline view, the view changes to show only their stuff
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[grantcodes] How do you do that? (maybe a dev question)
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aaronpk yes
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[fluffy] I’d like to be able to do that without having to find a more recent post by the person though
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[fluffy] Like my usual use case is remembering an article someone wrote and trying to find it
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aaronpk yeah that kind of searching the archives i'm interested in, but i don't know how I want it to look yet
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[fluffy] Might I suggest the feedonfeeds UI? ;)
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aaronpk if you can screenshot and capture it on the wiki :D
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aaronpk i have no idea how to use feedsonfeeds, and searching for it turns up...weird results
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[fluffy] Yeah unfortunately it still has a website that the original author hasn’t updated *at all* and none of the current maintainers of it have taken the initiative to fix that. I really should get around to it someday.
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aaronpk oh it's "feed on feeds" not "feeds on feeds"
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aaronpk gosh
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[fluffy] Oh yeah
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aaronpk um the website is just blank?
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[fluffy] Well, that’s an “improvement” at least
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[fluffy] What is feed on feeds?
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Loqi Feed on Feeds is a self-hosted PHP-based feed reader https://indieweb.org/Feed_on_Feeds
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aaronpk oh now it's there, weird
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aaronpk anyway yeah add screenshots of UX you particularly like there!
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[fluffy] Yeah I need to get around to it
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[fluffy] Like its UI isn’t *great* but it does what I want
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[pawel_madej] Quick question from newcommer. How is indie web growing nowadays? Most content on page is marked with few years ago dates? Is it some kind of stagnation or am I wrong?
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[snarfed] [pawel_madej] welcome! page "freshness" on the wiki isn't a good indicator of community growth. maybe try https://indieweb.org/2019/state-of-the-indieweb and https://snarfed.org/2019-01-02_bridgy-stats-update-4#comment-2731107 instead for both qualitative and quantitative evaluations
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Loqi [pawel_madej], [snarfed]: can you move the tech talk to #indieweb-dev to keep this channel more inclusive and inviting?
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[snarfed] oh loqi 🤦
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[pawel_madej] @logi good invite 👍
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[pawel_madej] [snarfed] thx
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[tantek] Yeah that seems like a false positive from Loqi
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aaronpk weird
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[tantek] Sorry about that [pawel_madej]
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[tantek] To answer your question, in general, updated dates on wiki pages are not a good way to judge stagnation. If you’re curious what’s new, just ask
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[tantek] Eg
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[tantek] What is new?
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Loqi Welcome to News About The IndieWeb where recent notable articles about the IndieWeb are cited and linked to keep you up to date https://indieweb.org/new
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[pawel_madej] I've found IndieWeb by accident and your idea is something i like very much. I just started making my personal place on web using static site generator jekyll and I am looking for current information how to do this best way. How is structured data better or worse than microformats etc.
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KartikPrabhu [pawel_madej]: depends on the use-case. I haven't found any use for "structured data" (by which I assume you mean RDF or JSON-LD stuff ). But microformats have been useful for stuff like webmentions and backfeed etc..
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[tantek] Microformats are the simplest way to do structured data!
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aaronpk careful or Loqi's gonna really mean it this time ;-)
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[asuh] Is there an article or post talking about structured data comparing the competing formats with pros and cons? I saw [KevinMarks] write up here: http://www.kevinmarks.com/microformatschema.html but it’s only focused on showing Microformats, which is great
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aaronpk it's not really a competition, they're just used for completely different things now
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KartikPrabhu yup ^
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[tantek] aaronpk makes a good point, let's take this to the dev channel [asuh]