#indieweb 2020-07-10
2020-07-10 UTC
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# 
gRegorLove How about "slumlord" for some more punch? heh
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[chrisaldrich] The part about slumlords not improving basic things one needs to have a reasonable standard of living certainly applies...
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cambridgeport90 oh. I notice that all the time. and then not to mention, the inability to easily switch accounts on things like Twitter. Makes me go fifteen kinds of bonkers.
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# cambridgeport90 I wonder now even regarding the Fediverse in that sense, because of all the crap with the political leanings of the developers. What's to stop projects from dying because of dictatorships in the open source community? No one will stand for that.
# cambridgeport90 It does have migration, though.
# cambridgeport90 It's under the redirect settings.
# cambridgeport90 It was fairly recent.
# cambridgeport90 I still like Pleroma better, though, because of the newest interface, which kicks butt.
# cambridgeport90 It is. What sort of features are you actually looking for in a migration?
# cambridgeport90 Nope, you're pretty much right.
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# vika_nezrimaya Congratulate me, I've had a power surge and now my website is down. That could be a great opportunity to make a backup of the whole post database and start implementing the new front-end maybe?
# vika_nezrimaya and restructure the website in general
# cambridgeport90 Why not?
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# vika_nezrimaya jacky: I'm building a new website and a CMS for a year now
# vika_nezrimaya I'm kinda happy that this one went down, because that's a great opportunity to finish the lightning bolt's job and completely tear it down
# vika_nezrimaya Made a dump of the Redis database, loaded everything into flat files, and I'm ready to go now
# vika_nezrimaya bye-bye old website I will miss you but not too much
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jacky this is a preview of the "properties" editor when it's in a 'compiled' property view https://i.imgur.com/tjiH1P5.png
KartikPrabhu, dopplerg-, wiedi, Simounet, petermolnar, oodani, apophys, sp1ff, bltavares, dmbaturin, corenomi1al, XgF, mclemens, alxd, segnior, ned0, willnorris, quite, strugee, IWSlackGateway1, kiryin, Gargron_, jigawatt, thelounge2447, nloadholtes, nekr0z, samclarke[m], njha, Lohn[m], milkii, myfreeweb, nsh, globbot, micro_, shoesNsocks, edsu_, kart, Bitweasil, fredcy_, marinin[m], pfefferle[m], kir0ul, joshproehl, jbove, gRegorLove, bigbluehat, ramsey, delucks, lahacker, jeremycherfas, jgee, mavidser, cassie, Ariadne, hasslon, selectric401, aaronpk, rrix, creature, dazinism, ludovicchabant, benpa[m]1, seekr, cjw6k, ketudb, rhiaro, vilhalmer, callMeBaby, bear, patcoll, blueyed, Salt, yar, crab, crowdhailer, plutes, GonZo2k, kolaente, rknLA, peterrother, genehack, dietricha, danyao, skalnik, sebsel, deathrow1, crazed, Jon, Leeky, njd, vika_nezrimaya1, anarchivist, Decobus, JasonO, MrHyde_, sknebel, dckc, uncle_0gre_, gbmor, distopico, HbHighland, raucao, oenone, cleanshirt, Ruxton, danbee718, astronavt, sensiblemn, dg, chkilroy, [schmarty], BigShip, cjk101010_, awolf, rMdes, justache, GWG, quailstime, elioat, buirg, PetriBot, __number5__, Kaja, jjuran, jacky, omz13, treora, deltab_, kiero_, shakeel, robla, cjk101010, benpa[m], kingpapa, samwilson, Matthew[m], freekurt, Rixon, plindner[m], Salt[m], JK_na, edrex, nino_, jamietanna[m], OberstKrueger[m], jfkimmes[m], pioneer[m], perflyst[m], kikurage, ARH[m], davidized[m], mxuribe[m], glenn[m], jorge-jbs, sud0x3[m], hobbsy[m], pauho[m], kensp, [ColinMorris] and vika_nezrimaya joined the channel
# vika_nezrimaya WOW
# vika_nezrimaya That's a great UX you got here! :3
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# vika_nezrimaya Ugh. I refuse to integrate OpenGraph into my website because their gender field only has two genders and they don't have fields for pronouns
# vika_nezrimaya why do you even need a gender field for, social media is not a medical establishment
# vika_nezrimaya gender is confusing anyway
# vika_nezrimaya people are addicted to social networks and TikTok. I'm addicted to IndieWeb. It's been three hours since my website is down and I'm feeling VISIBLY UNCOMFORTABLE ABOUT NOT BEING ABLE TO POST TO IT
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# vika_nezrimaya Hm... How could we IndieWeb-ify TikTok? Its strength lies in the algorithm, but I think it's mostly going through hashtag matching and overall topic of what the person posts to serve the video
# vika_nezrimaya Well, it's not by the spec, also it shouldn't have gender, gender is too complicated, it should have pronouns
# vika_nezrimaya Gender is a complicated concept and it might be too much for a computer to define, parse and process. Pronouns, on the other hand, are a linguistic construct that is strictly defined and can be used in a positive and inclusive way
# vika_nezrimaya this is my personal opinion but I think I have a decent understanding of gender due to being trans and being out on the internet for... several years already and reading lots of stuff about it
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# vika_nezrimaya yeah I understand
# vika_nezrimaya I'm just ranting at this point :3
# vika_nezrimaya not setting gender feels like the best way to protest this field
# vika_nezrimaya or maybe just garbage to confuse the parsers :3
# vika_nezrimaya wow facebook has genders
# vika_nezrimaya i thought it's a conservative... um... trashhole
# vika_nezrimaya like Odnoklassniki in Russia
# vika_nezrimaya using Odnoklassniki in Russia is a sign of what American people call "being a boomer"
# vika_nezrimaya also it's a money hog, it's aggressively monetized, even more than VK
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[KevinMarks] Gender was a free string originally, but with 2 predefined strings for the Male/Female common cases. However that has been misread as "only support those" over time. Facebook's choice of 57 specific technical strings is not a big improvement.
# [KevinMarks] In both Facebook and twitter gender is not for you to express yourself, it's for advertisers to target you. Hence twitter's inferred gender
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petermolnar it should be much simpler to ask for chromosomes; that's need 3 binary fields, and locked to the combinations.
# vika_nezrimaya that would be kinda transphobic in a non-medical setting tho
# vika_nezrimaya also some people have 3 sex chromosomes
# vika_nezrimaya or 4
# vika_nezrimaya again, this approach is flawed
# vika_nezrimaya just ask for pronouns, it's so much simpler
# [KevinMarks] simpler is not the point. That's procrustean thinking
# vika_nezrimaya TIL a new word
# petermolnar 3, yes, 4 is not possible. socially insensitive? absolutely. solves the gender field? yes.
# vika_nezrimaya :D
# [KevinMarks] pronouns make sense to ask if your ui uses them certainly. Asking them as a proxy for 'marketing gender' is not good
# vika_nezrimaya umm
# petermolnar pronouns is also flawed; introducing random pronouns is really not linguistically ok
# [KevinMarks] other proxys like honorific-prefix are minefields too
# vika_nezrimaya you don't need to market gender that's kinda the whole point of not asking for it
# vika_nezrimaya > random pronouns
# vika_nezrimaya unclear, elaborate please
# petermolnar but you "do" when it's facebook, which is a romance site in disguise
# vika_nezrimaya romance site in disguise? first time I hear this about facebook, but maybe it's just because I never had an account
# vika_nezrimaya and my girlfriend made one by mistake
# vika_nezrimaya that day I found out it's possible to make an FB account by mistake
# [KevinMarks] you and I know that, but we're not silos selling subgroups of people to advertisers - that was the thing about twitter. They fabricated male or female decriptiors for everyone based on textual analysis of their tweets, and it was several years befoer hey gave us a field to edit
# crab how does asking about chromosomes "solve" the gender field?
# vika_nezrimaya It doesn't, that's the whole point
# [KevinMarks] it doesn't. Peter is either being ironic or oversimplifying from a position of privilege, and it's a bit hard to tell which
# vika_nezrimaya My intuition tells me it's probably ironic
# vika_nezrimaya petermolnar, please confirm :3
# [KevinMarks] also, linguistics is descriptive, nor prescriptive, and what it means by gender is different
# [KevinMarks] it's a noun class
# vika_nezrimaya but pronouns allow you to properly refer to a user, they are actually useful in UI
# vika_nezrimaya I kinda envision being able to parse pronouns outta h-cards and present them next to people's names on my blog
# vika_nezrimaya like if I'm replying to aaronpk his reply context will be "Aaron Parecki (he/him)" (if he has his pronouns in his h-card :3)
# [KevinMarks] yes, as long as you can map them to the grammar of the language you are using
# vika_nezrimaya right now a lot of indieweb users write in English
# petermolnar [KevinMarks]: re procrustean: there's a song in the beginning of a martial arts movie "Tai Chi Master", with a line "merciless is mercy". As for the gender field: I'm a non native speaker, and I can't deal with custom pronouns. It requires a language skill I can't put enough time into to deal with. And in this case, I wasn't being ironic; if someone needs a sex field for medical data or similar, they need biologicial data; otherwise th
# petermolnar ey don't need that kind of data at all.
# petermolnar now, if the gender field is a "vanity" (no offense, I can't find the exact word I'm looking for, please help here) field, it's ok to be custom
# vika_nezrimaya medical data and social networks are two spheres I would like to keep as far apart as possible
# petermolnar but then it's not essential data
# [KevinMarks] 'gender' as noun class and gender as personal pronoun are very different in lots of languages
# vika_nezrimaya maybe unrelated, but I think gender is a total scam and we should just abolish it somehow
# vika_nezrimaya just live without gender and without differentiating by it
# vika_nezrimaya solves a lot of problems like bathroom efficiency
# [KevinMarks] english doesn't have gendered noun classes (apart from a few random things like calling ships 'she' because English defies any kind of rules) but too many programmers base their linguisitic reasoning on it
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# petermolnar many languages are without gender
# vika_nezrimaya [KevinMarks]: ohhhh I finally got what you're talking about
# [KevinMarks] for 'vanity field' maybe 'expressive field'
# vika_nezrimaya Russian has a grammatical of gender, we have three
# vika_nezrimaya male, female and middle (ΡΡΠ΅Π΄Π½ΠΈΠΉ ΡΠΎΠ΄)
# petermolnar Hungarian doesn't have any
# vika_nezrimaya TODO learn Hungarian
# petermolnar instead we assign it to professions...
# vika_nezrimaya what
# [KevinMarks] German has 3, french 2. They don't map
# [KevinMarks] swahili has lots of noun classes
# [KevinMarks] machine translation can really mess this up
# petermolnar eg. policeman in Hungarian is "rendΕr" which is without gender, but it's always assumed to be male "rendΕrnΕ" is policewoman - so while the language is genderless, the mind isn't.
# petermolnar this might be slowly changing; technically it's not incorrect to leave the male/female off, just quite uncommon
# petermolnar eh
# petermolnar technically _correct_
# [KevinMarks] one difficulty with pronouns is how they are changed in context - you can't just insert in a template
# [KevinMarks] in english we would now say 'police officer' or 'fire fighter' etc to avoid the older gendered assumption
# [KevinMarks] my women friends with PhD's or MD's have lots of stories where people assume they're male before meeting them
# petermolnar tangential thought: what if wanting the gender field to be custom is the last line of defense for customisable profiles? It was much easier with less fields and more custom CSS, alΓ‘ myspace.
# petermolnar [KevinMarks]: "for the record, I am 100% for singular they" that's something me with my Hungarian background can 100% agree on, except that for me "Ε" is singular, genderless 3rd party, "Εk" is multiple, genderless 3rd party. So English lacks the singular, but it's ok.
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# vika_nezrimaya I've been thinking. There's p-note in the h-card for a note about who you are, but not something like a VK status (it's similar to XMPP statuses, it's a short string that displays under your name, people sometimes put witty and atmospheric quotes in there to shine a light on their current state of mind)
# [KevinMarks] english has it by default, but only in some contexts eg 'someone left their laptop on the counter' - re-expanding it to other places is the argument
# petermolnar so, question: if there was a "sex" field, that is binary (which is biologically also incorrect, but let's skip that for this very question), would it be greeted with the same problems? For someone who learnt this language from teachers, until very recently, the two words - gender and sex - were complete synonyms.
# vika_nezrimaya on topic of singular they: people say Shakespeare used it
# vika_nezrimaya ugh i dunno how to write his name
# vika_nezrimaya I hope I got it right
# [KevinMarks] we did map those to note, but ti is tricky as vcard was originally specifying your own address book where it was a note you wrote about the person, not a public one
# vika_nezrimaya also VK introduced emoji statuses to lighten up users' moods for the COVID pandemic. It can display an emoji corresponding to states like "Sometimes going out", "Waiting for 2020 to end", "Going cuckoo" or "Learning how to be a chef" to describe how the user's trying to pass the time
# [KevinMarks] when we were adding gender to vcard we had this debate too - we ended up with a hybrid of sex and gender
# vika_nezrimaya a hybrid of sex and gender - that sounds scary but also funny
# petermolnar btw the reason custom genders tickle me the wrong way is that is very much feels like "your are to address me as ..." which leaves a rather feudal feeling in me.
# vika_nezrimaya well you wouldn't address a woman as a man if your language has gender differences and vice versa
# vika_nezrimaya only it's a bit more complex because some people want to use gender-neutral pronouns and some just want to break the system
# vika_nezrimaya and of course I think it's a person's right to break the system because the current system is kinda already broken
# [KevinMarks] I have seen people do "pronouns: Your Majesty"
# petermolnar procrustean solution: abolish all pronouns, everything is an "it", so everyone is offended.
# vika_nezrimaya KevinMarks: that sounds either like something a very conservative cis person who doesn't like the idea of trans people would write or something clearly ironic
# petermolnar ironic, yes. Pointing out the issue with custom pronouns, in terms of the "you are to address me as ... "
# petermolnar " You probably mean Gender, not Sex." - that's... eh. I believe those who made the standard understand the differences between biology and society, and that they indeed meant sex.
# [KevinMarks] that's how we got to the compromise
# [KevinMarks] it's a long thread
# petermolnar it's a good compromise.
# [KevinMarks] better link for Gretchen's pronouns essay https://the-toast.net/2014/06/02/a-linguist-gendered-pronouns/
# petermolnar that "pronouns: Your Majesty" is probably one of the best examples of the hacker mindset btw
# [KevinMarks] this is a good thread https://twitter.com/Millicentsomer/status/1281414271692234753
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@Millicentsomer I get the longing--I even share it--but the naivete is annoying. Online pundits should know (and factor in) that social media as a "public square" where "good faith debate" happens is a thing of the past. Disagreement here happens through trolling, sea-lioning, ratios, dunks. (twitter.com/_/status/1281414271692234753)
# vika_nezrimaya what is sea-lioning
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "sea-lioning" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "sea-lioning is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# [KevinMarks] sea-lioning is searching online for people saying something in order to argue about them with it endlessly, from this cartoon http://wondermark.com/1k62/
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[jgmac1106] vika you can';t prove sealioning , "I need evidence" "got a citation" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning
# [jgmac1106] morning all
# [jgmac1106] jinx kevin but you used a comic way better
# [KevinMarks] it's the reason for the name
# [jgmac1106] never knew, thx
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# [jgmac1106] ^^ which also proves I just shared a link without reading it
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# Loqi jmac: jgmac1106 left you a message 1 week, 3 days ago: will do a write up post soon(ish) but here is details of a community project I have been working on that I was discussing: https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2020/06/29/please-share-widely-we-are-running-a-free-technology-camp
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# [jgmac1106] jmac been going great, need to write a day three wrap up post. Follow along here: http://tech-4-teens.club/posts/
# Loqi [indienews] New post: "This is my first post" https://www.kappawingman.com/posts/siteinfo/2020/03/28/first-post/
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# Loqi [indienews] New post: https://v2.jacky.wtf/post/5d45819f-4d21-41b6-88bf-59a22cfd81fa
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# [KevinMarks] Oops-I meant Single Point Of Facebook
# petermolnar the very fact that those services rely in the facebook SDK is bad enough
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# petermolnar apparently the sdk relies on fb service, so jacky is right
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# Loqi IndieKit is an IndieWeb publishing toolkit, a project currently being developed by Paul Robert Lloyd https://indieweb.org/IndieKit
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# [jgmac1106] [chrisaldrich] here is this year's version of edu522 its less a blogging class and more instructional design based on learner request: https://edu522sum20.jgregorymcverry.com/
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# [jgmac1106] "shared a link without reading it?" I think the term is called facebook user but I will have to check the urban dictionary
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# Loqi Spoiler is spoiler post https://indieweb.org/spoiler
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "tautological" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "tautological is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# Loqi spoiler post is a post that contains information that will spoil something such as a movie, in the IndieWeb this would be a post that communicated to a parser/reader that the content of the post might spoil info about a new book, tv show, movie, etc https://indieweb.org/spoiler
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# [KevinMarks] I can see a sub-post having a content warning. "Look at this egregious thing I found" type posts. Maybe it belongs with an h-cite too?
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# [KevinMarks] In mastodon, you can apply a cw to a photo or media element within a post, for example
# [KevinMarks] Or the slack pattern of putting the painful/spoiling content in threads
# [KevinMarks] Other patterns are rot13 for spoilers, or setting forecolor and backcolor to the same value so you have to highlight to read
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[tantek] and slap the entirety of it with a content warning in case it's discovered separately. or make it simultaneously /unlisted and /unindexed
# [KevinMarks] Right, but a webmention would bring that back, in a comment or cite
# [KevinMarks] Will do
# [tantek] also for the ideas that lack citations, definitely add them as well to /spoiler#Brainstorming!
# [KevinMarks] I can cite all of these with a bit of digging.
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# [tantek] Hmm, maybe this is sorta a spoiler warning example without calling it that? https://tantek.com/log/2003/08.html#L20030813t1158
# [tantek] spoiler << Example: https://tantek.com/log/2003/08.html#L20030813t1158 a book review that mentions the book in the post without quoting/summarizing from it, that then links to the complete review separately, so the viewer has a chance to decide if they want to see stuff from inside the book or not.
# Loqi ok, I added "Example: https://tantek.com/log/2003/08.html#L20030813t1158 a book review that mentions the book in the post without quoting/summarizing from it, that then links to the complete review separately, so the viewer has a chance to decide if they want to see stuff from inside the book or not." to the "See Also" section of /spoiler_post https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=71330&oldid=49547
# [KevinMarks] You could iframe the embeds and stop indexing of the iframes
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# Hessery With the indieweb being generally against giving data to large corporations, how would one add videos to their site without uploading to youtube?
# Loqi video is a type of post where the primary content is a video file (recorded movie, animation etc.) typically with audio, and has growing support on the indie web https://indieweb.org/video
# [KevinMarks] It depends on the traffic you expect - you can host video on general Web servers, but if you're paying for bandwidth it can cost you. If you are willing to make your video Creative Commons licensed, archive.org will host it for you and you can hotlink it
# Hessery Maybe i worded my question wrong, is there a video player that allows you to use files hosted on your server and not on someone elses?
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# 
aaronpk https://videojs.com is the standard for that
# Hessery Cool, thanks :)
# [KevinMarks] You can also use media fragment urls to embed bits of larger video or audio files
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