#indieweb 2022-05-24

2022-05-24 UTC
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[chrisaldrich] I'm curious if this ^^ is an area where AramZ-S has experimented particularly as it has some potential for engagement wrt to adtech?
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AramZ-S[m] -Thanks [chrisaldrich]! It is a fun setup but in need of update for sure
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AramZ-S[m] A whole bunch of publishers actually collaborate on an open source commenting and moderation platform. That may be the one you're thinking of [tantek]. It used to be under the Knight Foundation, it's living under Vox now, but lots of orgs still contribute back in - https://github.com/coralproject
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AramZ-S[m] There are a bunch of platforms that monitize comment embeds with ad tech, some especially sketchy
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AramZ-S[m] But the main problem is that it takes humans to do moderation and every few years publishers forget and fire them all
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[chrisaldrich] What is tummeling?
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Loqi tummeling is what a tummler does - keep the conversation going, quieten the too noisy people, encourage the quiet ones to speak up https://indieweb.org/tummeling
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[chrisaldrich] Yes, we need more of those ^^.
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[CrowderSoup] So, weird question: On the wiki I’ve logged in with my Website and it says my user is here: https://indieweb.org/User:Www.crowdersoup.com. However, I already have https://indieweb.org/User:Crowdersoup.com.
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[CrowderSoup] 1. I’m not sure why it’s now logging me in as `Www.crowdersoup.com` rather than `Crowdersoup.com`
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[CrowderSoup] 2. Can I redirect the latter to the former? If so, how?
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[CrowderSoup] (Sorry, I’ve been gone for a while because life got busy 😄 (life has a funny way of doing that)
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aaronpk looks like your website redirects crowdersoup.com to www.crowdersoup.com
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[CrowderSoup] oh, not sure when I changed that DNS setting
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[CrowderSoup] Probably something vercel is doing 🤔
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[CrowderSoup] Oh, I didn’t even notice because chrome hides the `https://www.` part of the URL
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aaronpk heh yeah took me a minute to notice that too
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[CrowderSoup] Yep, was vercel’s configuration
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[CrowderSoup] I really like not maintaining my own infra but sometimes it’s annoying 😄
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[CrowderSoup] That seems to have fixed it, thanks so much aaron!
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aaronpk 👍
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[Scott_Jack] [chrisaldrich] hm interesting about tummlers. [KevinMarks] hinted at the problems of overly easy online group formation, which there's been a lot of talk about more recently—e.g. hate speech and misinformation being widespread in Facebook groups. They have tummlers too — cherishing the convo, setting the tone, weeding out those intent to damage/change things.
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[chrisaldrich] [Scott_Jack], I think it's linked in one of those pages, but the podcast series they did about tummeling a few years back was really excellent.
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[Scott_Jack] Yes it's linked on https://indieweb.org/tummler
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[Scott_Jack] I would need a transcript 😂 today I landed on calling myself a terrible listener because I so struggle with podcasts and audiobooks
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[snarfed] so I got an email from Tumblr today asking if I want to built indieweb support for them on contract. sounds like it was motivated by https://twitter.com/schnarfed/status/1522084820213321729
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@schnarfed @kevinmarks @fluffy @photomatt @petermolnar @localherodotbiz @tchambers In case it helps, one proof of concept example here is how Bridgy adds webmention support to Tumblr, both incoming and outgoing: https://brid.gy/about#blogs (twitter.com/_/status/1522084820213321729)
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[snarfed] I'll have to decline, but I can definitely point them to other people here
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[snarfed] I'm kind of surprised that they want to contract it out instead of having full time eng employees build it...but I don't know their org, maybe contract dev is normal for them
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[tantek] or to start
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[CrowderSoup] That's a contract I'd love to take... If I had time 😅
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[snarfed] [CrowderSoup] I can intro you if you want!
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[CrowderSoup] I want to say yes, but my life is far too chaotic at the moment I think. Thanks though, [snarfed]!
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[fluffy] I got a similar email as well, as I just mentioned in #indieweb-chat!
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[fluffy] Sounds like they’re really serious about this. That’s awesome.
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[KevinMarks] I got one too, and I will respond for at least the template work. What I don't want is another Medium situation where community members get excluded from working on indieweb projects as well. I'd hope Automattic would have a framework for that.
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aaronpk wow I wish I had the bandwidth for this too!
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aaronpk I'm assuming a contract job like this would not have the same issues as a full time position at Medium
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[fluffy] Yeah to me the most interesting thing they could do is have native support for Webmention, which could potentially have a *huge* scope problem.
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[snarfed] ...which we'd love to help figure out!
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[fluffy] Anyway I responded saying I probably wouldn’t have the bandwidth or spoons to work on this as an engineer but I’d love to provide consulting at a higher level, and stated how elated I am that they’re reaching out about this.
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[chrisaldrich] MattMullenweg++ for follow up
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Loqi MattMullenweg has 1 karma over the last year
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[chrisaldrich] What is naming?
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Loqi Naming is hard, yes, even, especially for a personal site since you have to pick both a name you like as a representation of yourself, and one that hasn’t been already taken, though sometimes you can ask nicely (or pay a lot) for domains that are registered but unused https://indieweb.org/naming
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[chrisaldrich] naming << https://mastodon.social/@Gargron/108352418240054955
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Loqi ok, I added "https://mastodon.social/@Gargron/108352418240054955" to the "See Also" section of /naming https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=81642&oldid=80854
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Jef[m] I was wondering, we have this idea of "Publish (on your) Own Site, Syndicate Elsewhere", could this idea also be applied to source code? e.g. all my projects are stored on my own "website" (don't wanna get too technical in this chat per se), but i know there a systems for periodically copying my code to other website (e.g. GitHub)
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sknebel sure
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sknebel there's kind of existing terms for it in that context ("mirror"), but I guess if you like the specific framing of POSSE that works too
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Jef[m] yeah i know Gitea has builtin support for mirroring, i was however wondering if anyone else sees it in this way, just a thought experiment ;p
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg> Has anyone ever made YouTube videos explaining IndieWeb concepts?
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg> The idea just popped in my mind and I thought I'd be worth trying out 🙂
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg> "IndieWeb Bites" 😄
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[jgmac1106] Okay [snarfed] you weren't only one.
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[jgmac1106] Sounds like they tried to hire server. Not sure if I feel more special or less.
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[jgmac1106] And I am not an engineer and my devs get WordPress FedRAMP rates.... Probably way too expensive
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[Zandy_Ring] Hi folks - I’m the one sending out emails from Tumblr 🙂 We’re interested in moving forward with this, so I went through the Twitter thread with Matt, and browsed the linked indieweb conversation as well to try to find relevant folks who may be interested in signing on as contractors to work on this.
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aaronpk 👋 nice to see you here!
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jacky hey!
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[Zandy_Ring] Hi!
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[Zandy_Ring] Hopefully no one feels any less special by my scattershot approach 😛 I don’t personally have any contacts with indieweb (or, I didn’t), so I cast a wide net.
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[snarfed] welcome! not at all. we're excited you all are interested!
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sknebel capjamesg: ^^^
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[snarfed] jacky you do contract work, right? any chance this might fit?
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jacky I was tempted ngl, but I've recently went FTE in January so I wouldn't be able to make time for a few months
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petermolnar hi [Zandy_Ring]! capjamesg mentioned he'd be interested.
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[snarfed] [Zandy_Ring] do you know specifically what kind of functionality you all want to add
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[snarfed] ?
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jacky ^ that would help a lot
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jacky because if it's something we've deeply specified, it might be easy to bring in-house!
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[snarfed] for example, adding microformats2 to your HTML would be pretty straightforward. adding webmention support, on the other hand - probably the feature we'd all be most excited about here - would be significantly bigger, and would take product work as well as eng
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[Zandy_Ring] I’ll see what I can pull together in terms of what we’re looking for, and report back.
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[KevinMarks] Hi Zandy - I already started a repo with your colleague Echo for the microformats2 template update and it is gathering some related issues https://github.com/indieweb/tumblr
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Loqi [indieweb] tumblr: workspace to make Tumblr more indieweb friendly
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[Zandy_Ring] Excellent!
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg> Welcome [Zandy_Ring] 👋
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg> I am interested in helping out how I can 🙂
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[Zandy_Ring] Awesome
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg> My website is over at jamesg.blog (with an email address on the home page).
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[Zandy_Ring] Perfect, appreciated
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg> Likewise, we (the community) would love to know more about what ideas particularly interest Tumblr. As [snarfed] said, implementing some standards will require cross-functional efforts.
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[Zandy_Ring] That makes sense. This is a broad inquiry (and I have some emails from folks that I haven’t yet replied to), but I’ll start narrowing things down.
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jacky glad we got this going :)
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[Zandy_Ring] Me too! A more open web is a win-win for everyone.
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[CrowderSoup] Even though I don’t have the bandwidth to participate in this project I’m am VERY excited about it 🙂
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AramZ-S[m] <capjamesg> if you are interested in owning your links you should check out https://yourls.org
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AramZ-S[m] I also am pretty interested in that and have an 11ty/Nunjucks template for similar functionality https://github.com/AramZS/context-center/blob/main/src/_layouts/fwd.njk
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petermolnar AramZ-S[m]: I'm not sure how owning links come together with a url shortener, would you mind expanding that thought?
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AramZ-S[m] If you run your own link shortner on your domain you own those links and a UI like YOURLS allows you to change where the link redirects to and allows you to build custom "short links". "Link Shortner" in this case is really just a way to say link redirection, so when I had YOURLS on mydomain dot com, I can create links like mydomain dot com/github which forwards to github dot com/myname really easily and even have metrics on it, all
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AramZ-S[m] internal.
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AramZ-S[m] The one problem with YOURLS is that the metrics DB grows fast and pisses off the cheap server host I have it on lol
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petermolnar this, in my opinion, goes against web principles
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petermolnar as in by not actually linking
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AramZ-S[m] how so?
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petermolnar your site will not contain real links to the real targets
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AramZ-S[m] Sure, but part of the reason to do this is when you own the targets elsewhere, or believe they are likely to rot, you can have a stable link on your site to a theoretically moving target on the other end
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petermolnar it also break webmentions
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petermolnar *breaks
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AramZ-S[m] Especially for something like profiles on other platforms that I may want to change at a later date
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petermolnar unless you include the real link, hidden
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petermolnar in which case it defeats the purpose
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AramZ-S[m] Yeah, I agree it isn't for every use case, but there are times I want to link to something but don't want to webmention it.
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petermolnar I'd rather save it on archive.org and link there if I have to
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AramZ-S[m] Can do both, esp b/c it can be easy to update the forwarding link to a more recent or earlier archive if needed.
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petermolnar I see your point, your value, but I still believe it's better to link to the actual target
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AramZ-S[m] I think that most of the time you are right, but there are def some situations where it makes sense to have a forwarder or shortlink that you have more direct control of.
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aaronpk there was just a discussion about this the other day
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aaronpk what is own your links?
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Loqi Own your links is the concept of creating links on your own website that redirect to other properties you own, for instance social media accounts or content you have created on other websites https://indieweb.org/Own_your_links
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[KevinMarks] it needn't break webmentions if your link shortener does 301, but it can make a textual link check fail
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[echo] hey [KevinMarks]! thanks again for the help with Tumblr. coming here with [Zandy_Ring] to look into further integration
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AramZ-S[m] (most link shortners do indeed 301)
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[KevinMarks] Welcome echo and great to see you both
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[Zandy_Ring] Several of you have emailed me and I’m looking into things before replying, which is why not all of you have an email back from me. Just FYI.
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[jgmac1106] flips side you emailed several of us
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[jgmac1106] but thanks for stopping by and just the general interest in the community
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[echo] yeah, we’re hardly Meta or anything, but letting people have freedom over their own content is important to me
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[jgmac1106] [tantek] took the picture but just used it in a post: https://www.drmacscybersecuritybrief.com/2022/02/18/cybersecurity-begins-by.html
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Loqi CyberSecurity Begins By Owning Your Digital Infrastructure
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[jgmac1106] but I play in the Fed and Sled compliance and security space...so the audience is slightly different
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[echo] that sounds like a very sysadmin sentiment, lol
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[jgmac1106] I am just an old middle school teacher. sorry FED is federal government and SLED is slate, local, and ed government
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[jgmac1106] in the US
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jacky ^ I actually guessed that second one right
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jacky gives self a cookie
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[Scott_Jack] jacky! you just reminded me I made brownies yesterday
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[Scott_Jack] totally forgot
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[Scott_Jack] it's been that kind of morning
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[jgmac1106] I want brownies
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jacky hah past you set yourself up for a happy tomorrow
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[jgmac1106] my kids got stuck at home, I was supposed to record a video on separation of duties and using a yubikey for an admin account on your laptop if you are a one person company
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[Scott_Jack] ngl I'm a big fan of the Ghirardelli dark choco box mix - I just add walnuts
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[jgmac1106] okay going to get brownies out of the freezer to thaw..I don't make them, but no box mixes, just flour and melted chocolate and cocoa powder
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[tantek] Welcome [Zandy_Ring] and [echo]! Great to have you here!
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[Zandy_Ring] thank you!
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg> Welcome [echo]! 👋
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[echo] hiya! i’m excited to be here, this and Fediverse stuff is really interesting to my web engineer brain
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[snarfed] echo++
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Loqi echo has 1 karma over the last year
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[echo] aw thanks
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IWDiscordGateway <capjamesg> [echo] Do you have a personal website?
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[echo] i have multiple sites! my personal blog is echonyc.blog, my tumblr is echo-dream.tumblr.com, and i’m `@chaosexanima@tech.lgbt` on Mastodon
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[echo] i also have a personal Matrix server, and i may switch to that account on here
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echo[m]1 (hi from Matrix btw, was testing the bridge)
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[tantek] nice!
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Jef[m] <echo[m]1> "(hi from Matrix btw, was testing..." <- hi back from matrix, lovely domain name ;p
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echo[m]1 Jef[m]: why thank you! i mayyy have followed the `.gay` TLD launch really closely to nab something this ridiculous. i used to run an email server on this but it was too much of a pain lol
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echo[m]1 (for those who can't see, my username is `@echo:ishella.gay`)
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Jef[m] following a TLD launch might just be the nerdiest thing I've heard
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[tantek] amazing
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[tantek] echo, Jef, if you want your icons to show up across the other chat systems here (and in the logs), add yourselves to https://indieweb.org/chat-names
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echo[m]1 Jef[m]: wow given that comment came from a nerdy as heck channel (in a good way) i'm deeply flattered, thank you
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[tantek] [scojjac] Scott_Jack, [Zandy_Ring] Zandy_Ring you too 🙂 (add yourselves to /chat-names)
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[echo] ↩️ does it require to make an account on the wiki?
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[tantek] after a few (5+?) minutes, the icons should show up in the live logs here: https://chat.indieweb.org/
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[tantek] [echo] no account needed, you sign-in with your domain
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Jef[m] echo[m]1: oh if you want *real* nerdy you'll have to join #indieweb-dev
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Jef[m] [tantek]: doesn't that require indieauth? i don't have that set up *yet*
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[tantek] Jef[m], or the somewhat easier route, with links to your social profiles with rel=me (as long as those profiles link back)
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[tantek] https://indieweb.org/How_to_set_up_web_sign-in_on_your_own_domain
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Jef[m] hmmm i see, i really gotta make some time to improve my site backend in terms of indieweb stuff
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[Scott_Jack] Ah I forgot to update it after making hosting changes
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[Scott_Jack] Thanks for the reminder
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[Scott_Jack] Oh and I need Slack to stop calling me Scott_Jack for consistency’s sake
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Jef[m] "RelMeAuth is an authentication method that uses personal URL for identity that rel-me link to established OAuth provider(s) to perform the actual authentication."
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Loqi hey Jef[m]: that's a lot of dev jargon! backend, authentication, OAuth, RelMeAuth... can you move to #indieweb-dev?
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Jef[m] oh wow that's really smart actually
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Jef[m] right, my bad, didn't mean to tech talk 😅
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[echo] ↩️ ah okay! i was about to add a plugin to handle that but that sounds easier 😅
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[tantek] yes, RelMeAuth is the protocol and we can take the protocol details to #indieweb-dev 🙂
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[tantek] ↩️ [echo] yes that's the hope (that using rel-me is easier 🙂 )
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[echo] ↩️ actually it’s not easy- i just checked and as that’s a FSE block, it doesn’t have `rel` attribute support. i may file a feature request with whoever did that block (i think core WP?)
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[tantek] A long, long time ago, early WordPress releases had a "links sidebar" (like for blogrolls) that had a UI for editing the "rel" of those links and explicitly choosing "me" for your sidebars. Not sure if that UI is still buried somewhere in WordPress or not. GWG would know.
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[echo] ↩️ no, but there are plugins to bring it back.
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[echo] ↩️ done! the plugin actually worked super easily, and i think i did it right
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[tantek] Nicely done! It looks right to me but I'm not seeing your icon in the list in /chat-names which may be a bug with the chat-user template. Investigating...
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[tantek] yay it works! https://chat.indieweb.org/2022-05-24#bottom
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[tantek] (looks like the mediawiki template was somehow messed up with the "?" query param but work without it)
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[Scott_Jack] Testing again
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scojjac Hm not cool
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GWG I wrote a plugin to extend it into a full bookmarks manager
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aaronpk scojjac: the slack gateway will time you out eventually but it won't pick up your username change until then
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scojjac Ok I’ll give it a rest
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Jef[m] <[tantek]> "echo, Jef, if you want your..." <- is the icon the icon of my site?
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jacky IIRC it's the icon of your personal template on the Wiki
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[tantek] it's whatever icon you choose you want to show up next to your name in chat logs
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[tantek] it comes from the /chat-names entry
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jacky ohh yeah my fault
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[tantek] echo++ for setting up IndieAuth on WPcom!
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Loqi echo has 2 karma over the last year
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Jef[m] [tantek]: alright
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[tantek] figured out how to make the query param work and improved the template documentation accordingly with an explicit example for that
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