#indieweb 2022-11-18

2022-11-18 UTC
mlncn joined the channel
#
[tantek] yooo the fun is escalating 😂 https://twitter.com/ZoeSchiffer/status/1593391604785504257
#
@ZoeSchiffer NEW: Twitter just alerted employees that effective immediately, all office buildings are temporarily closed and badge access is suspended. No details given as to why. (twitter.com/_/status/1593391604785504257)
#
aaronpk 🍿
#
barnaby really hoping I can get my archive out before it all collapses xD thankfully I only need it for the likes and retweets
#
aaronpk i just requested my twitter archive because i realized i don't actually have the list of people i follow on twitter anywhere
#
aaronpk has someone made a website to export that as a csv yet?
#
barnaby aaronpk: good luck, I requested on a couple of days ago and didn’t hear anything about it yet
#
aaronpk heh
#
barnaby I used https://glitch.com/~fedifinder to at least get a list of people who now have AP identities I can follow when I have that set up
#
barnaby that accounted for about 10% of the people I follow, surprisingly
#
[chrisaldrich] Is anyone taking bets on how long they keep the lights on? https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1593415171149791232
#
@elonmusk How do you make a small fortune in social media? Start out with a large one. (twitter.com/_/status/1593415171149791232)
#
[chrisaldrich] What are site deaths?
#
Loqi Site deaths are when sites go offline, taking content and permalinks with them, and breaking the web accordingly https://indieweb.org/site-deaths
#
[chrisaldrich] Should we tentatively add it to upcoming??? ^^
#
aaronpk 😂
#
barnaby has archiveteam already started an initiative to archive as much of twitter as possible?
#
barnaby not yet, by the looks of it
#
[chrisaldrich] aaronpk, this site should do the API work to get your followers, followees, and mutuals on Twitter: https://listfollowers.com/ with responses in a few formats
#
barnaby [chrisaldrich]++ thanks!
#
Loqi [chrisaldrich] has 12 karma in this channel over the last year (28 in all channels)
#
[chrisaldrich] barnaby, as all the kids are saying: :saluting_face:
#
barnaby wow, 86% of the accounts I follow have a URL. not all personal sites obviously, but still a little more than I was expecting
#
aaronpk [chrisaldrich]++
#
Loqi [chrisaldrich] has 13 karma in this channel over the last year (29 in all channels)
#
[chrisaldrich] Another useful tool for tracking where your friends have decamped within the fediverse: https://fedifinder.glitch.me/
#
[chrisaldrich] For those with readers, this one may be helpful too: https://opml.glitch.me/
#
[chrisaldrich] What is a Twitter go bag?
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Twitter go bag" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "Twitter go bag is ____", a sentence describing the term)
#
aaronpk 😂 do it do it
geoffo and slyduda1 joined the channel
#
[timothy_chambe] ↩️ Catching up - not clear what this refers to?
#
[timothy_chambe] ↩️ DM me your account name - will fix
bterry, mlncn and [iambismark] joined the channel
#
[iambismark] At some point twitter locked down dev access behind some approval process it seems? Or may e I just can’t find the old dev portal where you could generate OAuth client creds… anyway turns out that the client creds I had from 5 years ago still work so my little data exporting scripts still work. Yay.
#
[chrisaldrich] I couldn't bring myself to add a wiki page, so I posted something on my own site instead: https://boffosocko.com/2022/11/17/your-twitter-go-bag/
#
mlncn @barnaby, did you visit https://twitter.com/settings/your_twitter_data/data directly after the request? It did not give me any notice but when i went there, and it prompted me for TFA (still working with e-mail!) my 540MB archive was there and downloadable!
dpk, GWG, sebbu2, tbbrown, mro, gRegor and angelo joined the channel
#
Loqi [indienews] New post: "beginner’s guide to the indie web" https://tumblr.beesbuzz.biz/post/701250435550445568/beginners-guide-to-the-indie-web (from https://beesbuzz.biz/blog/chatter/12477-beginners-guide-to-the-indie-web)
#
jboy can somebody help me understand why brid.gy says my site has no webmention support when it has worked for posts in the past? this is the one that is not receiving webmentions: https://www.jboy.space/blog/pandemic-side-projects.html
#
Loqi [John D. Boy] Pandemic Side Projects Through the Lens of Show HN
#
jboy I have <link rel="..."> in the site's <head> and I configured a Link HTTP header.
mro, barnaby and n8chz joined the channel
#
barnaby mlncn: yep I looked at the settings page and did the 2FA for it several times to check on it, but it’s just stuck saying that I requested it and that it’s in progress :/
#
mlncn uff
#
barnaby but using granary and some tweetdeck hacks I managed to download JF2 and media for 3000 of my ~6000 likes, and that was around 700MB of data by itself, which I’m satisfied with
#
jboy never mind, I think it was a caching issue and now brid.gy is picking up the http header.
mro joined the channel
#
[Dinis_Correia] Any good examples of “watch” type posts? Wanted to PESOS my activity from Trakt.tv (using micropub via IFTTT seems the like the easiest way), but wondering if for TV shows the name, episode and season should just be the content of the note or if data could be a bit more structure (TV show as a sort of taxonomy, maybe?)
#
[Murray] what is watch
#
Loqi A watch is a semi-passive type of post used to publish that you have watched a video (movie, TV, film), or a live show (theater, concert) https://indieweb.org/watch
#
[Murray] [Dinis_Correia] ^ there are some examples and general discussions on there, if they're useful 🙂
#
[Dinis_Correia] already checked the wiki, unfortunately most of the links in the examples are dead 😬
#
[Murray] hmm, that's a shame, sorry
#
sknebel I think [schmarty] did a bunch with watch posts?
#
sknebel I dont remember people putting much structure in them, apart from maybe a category per series or something like that
mlncn joined the channel
#
[Dinis_Correia] Yeah, that’s what I was thinking. Either a category or a custom post type, similar to what Simple Location does with venues
mlncn, bterry1 and mro joined the channel
#
aaronpk oh no i just remembered i wanted to make my site archive full threads when i favorite a tweet at the top of a thread
#
aaronpk bit late for that
#
barnaby hey, I hacked together a clumsy like archiver at 4am, there’s still time ;)
geoffo, rvalue and mro joined the channel
#
barnaby very good post on fediverse UX and culture by rhiaro https://rhiaro.co.uk/2022/11/fediverse-culture
#
barnaby “I'd love it to be normal and everyday to not assume that when you post a message on your social network, every person is reading it in a similar UI, either to the one you posted from, or to the one everyone else is reading it in.”
tbbrown joined the channel
#
[snarfed] Seems fair and true...but at the same time there do seem to be at least some bits of fediverse culture that are at least very widespread
#
[snarfed] Eg disliking global search indexing, data processing, or otherwise republishing public posts outside the fediverse
#
aaronpk i think that's the "lots of people who have ideas about what the "fediverse" is"
#
[snarfed] Ok
#
[aciccarello] I didn't know the AP spec was designed to separate out clients and servers like micropub. Interesting. It does seem a shame that hasn't come to fruition
#
aaronpk spec talk -> #indieweb-dev
#
Loqi hey [aciccarello], aaronpk: would you mind moving this conversation (Micropub, spec) to #indieweb-dev? thanks!
#
aaronpk yep haha
#
[schmarty] lol
#
sknebel maybe loqi should check if someone said indieweb-dev before :D
#
aaronpk yea
slyduda, geoffo and gRegorLove_ joined the channel
#
[tantek] Tangentially Twitter related but also, don't misrepresent yourself on the Internet because the "Internet" will dig up the receipts and post them publicly: https://archive.ph/gzGpF
#
[jacky] yikes
mro, mikeputnam, IWSlackGateway, AdonisExberger, [tantek] and [snarfed] joined the channel
#
aaronpk PSA if you want to see tweets that were previously in #indieweb-meta they are now in #indieweb-stream
#
[snarfed] aaronpk++
#
Loqi aaronpk has 10 karma in this channel over the last year (108 in all channels)
#
[snarfed] I'm trying to come up with brief language that explains the difference btw Bridgy for Mastodon and Bridgy Fed. Anyone have any wordsmithing feedback?
#
[snarfed] Bridgy: "Cross-post from my web site to an existing Mastodon account"
#
[snarfed] Bridgy Fed: "Make my web site itself into a fediverse account"
#
[snarfed] open to any edits that make them clearer and/or shorter. I'm planning to eventually put these in big font on the https://fed.brid.gy/ home page
#
aaronpk is "cross-post" a term normally used in that context by others?
#
[snarfed] afaik yes?
#
[snarfed] if there's a more mainstream/widely understood term, I'm open to it
#
aaronpk looks great, that's my only question
#
barnaby I’ve seen it used in that context a few times
angelo joined the channel
#
[snarfed] could replace it with just "post" 🤷
#
sknebel both fine IMHO
#
sknebel cross-posting is certainly established fediverse jargon (even if usually used for twitter<->fediverse)
#
[snarfed] 🙏
[KevinMarks] joined the channel
#
IWDiscordRelay <j​acky#7226> /join #indieweb-stream
#
IWDiscordRelay <j​acky#7226> oof
#
IWDiscordRelay <j​acky#7226> lol not visible on the discord bridge
[chrisaldrich] joined the channel
#
[chrisaldrich] [Dinis_Correia] I need to update the wiki page, but I've switched to making all of my watch posts here: https://boffosocko.com/kind/watch/. Not all of them are public, but the ones that are will give you some idea of my pattern. I was posting them primarily via Reading.am, but I need to set up a new workflow to make it easier now that it has shut down.
[jacky] joined the channel
#
aaronpk oh yeah sorry i'm not running the discord bridge yet but i'll add it when i switch that over
mro and rubenwardy joined the channel
#
[snarfed] [tantek] you're often good at wordsmithing and non-technical comms, lmk if you have any thoughts ^
#
[jacky] ah bet bet
#
[jacky] no rush, I jump between slack and discord
#
[tantek] 👀
#
[tantek] snarfed, yeah, interesting challenge. agreed shorter is better
#
[tantek] Bridgy Fed: put my site on the Fediverse!
#
[tantek] Bridgy Publish: cross-post to an existing Mastodon account.
#
[tantek] that's off the top of my head
#
[tantek] still thinking
#
[snarfed] 🙏
#
[tantek] microcopy++
#
Loqi microcopy has 1 karma over the last year
#
[tantek] possibly a bit bolder:
#
barnaby it’s not part of the snappy description, but you could show examples of @-@ handles people would use to follow/mention you and how they’d differ in both cases, as an immediate practical demo of how the two approaches differ
#
[tantek] Bridgy Fed: join the Fediverse!
#
[snarfed] I think "web site" needs to stay in there
#
[snarfed] barnaby++ true! Feel free to add to https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/issues/295
#
Loqi barnaby has 3 karma in this channel over the last year (52 in all channels)
#
Loqi [snarfed] #295 Overhaul docs
barnaby joined the channel
#
[tantek] snarfed, maybe? I mean everything "Bridgy" *assumes* a personal web site
#
[tantek] remind me the context again?
barnaby joined the channel
#
[tantek] are you updating https://brid.gy/ itself?
#
[snarfed] No, just Fed
#
[snarfed] This is the Bridgy Fed front page, I'm thinking about people entirely new to it all, not sure how much I can assume "web site"
#
[tantek] got it
#
[tantek] taking a look
#
[snarfed] "Put my web site on the fediverse" is good
#
[tantek] part of the challenge is the (currently) limited scope of Bridgy Fed vs what people's growing/shifting expectations of Mastodon/fediverse is
#
[snarfed] yeah?
#
[tantek] e.g. from a naive perspective, I mean I know the answer but: "Wow does this mean I can follow people on Mastodon from my site?"
#
IWDiscordRelay <j​acky#7226> I was just speaking to someone about that w.r.t microblog.pub
#
[tantek] or in a detailed sense (since I know you brought up the challenge / lack of how to in #indieweb-dev earlier 🙂 ) : "How do I participate in a poll on Mastodon from my website?"
#
[tantek] this is what I mean by (currently) limited
#
[snarfed] yeah, for deeper usage, both Bridgy and BF require pretty serious IndieWeb/mf2 support
#
[snarfed] but it degrades gracefully, eg if you just want your posts to show up, not too hard
#
[tantek] so there's a balance to be struck about being BOLD with what Bridgy Fed does for you (because it does A LOT and is AWESOME) vs setting expectations too high and people being disappointed when they get "stuck"
#
[snarfed] yup
#
[tantek] if I understand correctly, you are looking at completely rewriting the home page of Bridgy Fed, is that right?
#
[snarfed] right, the current wall of text will go to /docs
#
[tantek] (with the goal of broadening its appeal and understandability)
#
[snarfed] front page will just be two buttons with those two snippets. one goes to docs, the other to https://brid.gy/
#
[tantek] hmm, I feel it would be good to keep at least *some* user-descriptive text on the front page
#
[tantek] people often want to read a bit more before they commit to "clicking" on a page which might dive too deep
#
[tantek] same logic behind link previews
#
[tantek] from a UX perspective
#
[tantek] ok good to know your rough IA pages/structure goal. going for a walk and will think about conceptually splitting up the content (front page, Bridgy Fed setup how to, maybe Mastodon specific POSSE/backfeed page)
#
[tantek] ^ did I get that split right?
[schmarty] joined the channel
#
IWDiscordRelay <j​acky#7226> this is cool https://todon.eu/@lmorchard@hackers.town/109366552184132932
[benatwork] joined the channel
#
IWDiscordRelay <j​acky#7226> the concept
#
Loqi [Les Orchard] Ohh, this is kinda neat, actually: Don't start a Mastodon instance for all journalists. Start a verification organization to vouch for journalists who can have an account anywhere. This slots right into any account.Now, whether or not this particular...
#
aaronpk did not expect loqi to pick up that text
[keithjgrant] and [aciccarello] joined the channel
#
IWDiscordRelay <j​acky#7226> same
#
IWDiscordRelay <j​acky#7226> I wonder if it can tell it'd respond to AP pages
geoffo joined the channel
#
[tantek] does anyone else post their bicycle rides besides aaronpk?
#
[snarfed] [tantek] good point on giving people more info on the front page. Maybe I'll style the two options as buttons instead of links to emphasize that they're only navigationsl
#
[snarfed] er sorry, as links instead of buttons
#
[tantek] might I suggest .... two columns 🙂
#
[tantek] I'll work on some summary text for you
#
[tantek] might even sketch a couple of diagrams to show the difference
#
[tantek] 🐘🌐🐘 vs. 🌐🐘🐘🐘 or something
#
[snarfed] hah
#
[snarfed] example starting point: https://snarfed.org/bf-new.png
#
[tantek] one reason I suggested two columns rather than stacked is that two side-by-side columns communicates an "or" choice, whereas stacked options like that are a bit mixed and can imply a "do this first, then do this" semantic
#
[snarfed] yup, understood!
#
barnaby +1 for columns, something like the ubiquitous product/pricing comparison table could work well for enabling a quick+informed choice
#
[tantek] ok quick iteration on button labels since that's a logical starting point
#
[tantek] "Connect my website to the fediverse"
#
[tantek] hmm minor change
#
[tantek] "Connect my website directly to the fediverse"
#
[tantek] "Cross-post to an existing fediverse account"
#
[tantek] I would prefer omitting "my website" from the button labels and instead using summary/descriptive text underneath them that spelled it out in sentence form
#
[tantek] e.g. reduce button labels to something like
#
[tantek] "Connect to the fediverse" and "Cross-post to the fediverse"
#
[tantek] and then use summary text like
#
[tantek] "Connect your personal site directly to the fediverse, keep your domain as your identity, and no need for an account elsewhere!"
#
[snarfed] sure. still reluctant, but I guess we can drop "web site"
#
[snarfed] summary text makes sense
#
barnaby if Bridgy cross-posting is only to mastodon accounts then “Cross-post to Mastodon” could be more accurate and highlight a difference/limitation between the options
#
[tantek] "Cross-post from your personal site to an existing fediverse (e.g. Mastodon) account that you’ve already setup"
#
[tantek] another button label iteration
#
[tantek] "Connect to the fediverse" and "Cross-post to a fediverse account"
#
[snarfed] those seem good
#
[tantek] updated summary text for "connect": "Do you post notes on your personal site or plan to? Connect your personal site directly to the fediverse, keep your domain as your identity, post everything to your personal site, and no need to create an account elsewhere!"
#
[snarfed] maybe "Connect to the fediverse directly"
#
[tantek] "Connect directly to the fediverse"
#
[tantek] ending with a noun is stronger than ending with an adverb
#
[tantek] gosh when did I become a grammar nitpick
#
[snarfed] eh for this kind of language it's worth it
#
[tantek] I have no citation for that, that's my intuition from IDK where
#
[tantek] updated summary text for "cross-post": "Do you already have a fediverse (e.g. Mastodon) account that you like using to read and follow other folks but would prefer to post & have your notes first on your personal site? Use Bridgy Publish to cross-post from your personal site to your existing fediverse account."
#
[tantek] alright going to let those button labels / summary texts sit a bit, and come back to see if I think of anything more user friendly
#
[snarfed] tantek++ thank you!
#
Loqi tantek has 13 karma in this channel over the last year (75 in all channels)
#
[tantek] my bias is to design to steer people more towards Bridgy Fed to keep their identity etc. based on their domain so I'll think a bit more about how to do that
#
[tantek] I don't what the stats are on whether people tend choose left vs right choices in a two column layout like that. Like I bet it isn't 50/50 but maybe 60/40 or 40/60
#
[snarfed] yeah it's a tough tradeoff btw that and usability. I agree, but I expect only a fraction of people with web sites can set up the redirects they need
#
[tantek] ah another thing for each column would be a few examples to link to so people could see what happens and that both are "real" (and by reputation of the examples)
#
[snarfed] yup examples are great
#
[tantek] there's a few in /Bridgy_Fed for that column, and at least adactio.com for the POSSE column
#
[tantek] showing examples from the community in each column will also help people feel that regardless of which they choose, they still "belong" and both are good choices
#
[tantek] snarfed, perhaps there's also an opportunity to put in a short sentence at the bottom (across both columns) like "I'm not quite ready to connect my personal site to the fediverse or cross-post: create an account on indieweb.social to try out Mastodon directly."
#
[tantek] giving people an out like that IMO builds trust in the two options
mro and gRegor joined the channel
#
[snarfed] Good idea!
#
[tantek] I think it would be good to figure out a "small steps" path for the curious / and maybe anxious folks like: get on indieweb.social, figure out posting notes on your site, POSSE notes to your indieweb.social account, connect your personal site directly to "the fediverse", then migrate/redirect your indieweb.social account to your own site
#
[tantek] each incremental step is both a learning experience itself, and makes each subsequent step "less scary" as a result
[Murray] joined the channel
#
[tantek] ↩️ [timothy_chambe] context was cambridgeport901 getting suspended from indieweb.social and not knowing why or how to appeal. They're a longstanding positive member/contributor here in the community so it was a bit of a shock: https://chat.indieweb.org/2022-11-16#t1668608507319100
#
Loqi [cambridgeport901] Looks like I need to reconsider my web site... because evidently I don't belong on the indieweb.social fediverse instance, either... I wish I could appeal the suspension. Or understand what I posted between today and yesterday that got me in that sta...
#
[KevinMarks] Could also link to micro.blog
#
[KevinMarks] Which is a lot less scary than Mastodon but still federates
#
[tantek] Good point [KevinMarks] I think it would be worth linking to both per: https://indieweb.org/How_to_transition_from_Twitter
#
[tantek] [timothy_chambe] cambridgeport901 if it would help, I'm happy to help chat with y'all to help clear things up. I believe there's good faith & intentions on all parties and we could figure this out, plus maybe add some documentation / FAQs somewhere to help more in the future.
geoffo and gRegorLove_ joined the channel
#
Loqi [indienews] New post: https://indiebookclub.biz/updates#post-2022-11-14 (from https://gregorlove.com/2022/11/bookmarked-indiebookclub-version-0.1.0-launched/)
tbbrown and kloenk joined the channel
#
ash[m] I often see 740px and 960px pop up in different sites' css. Is there something special about those numbers?
#
gRegor There's probably some graphic design history to them dividing neatly into whatever the grid size was, like 10 or 12 columns. Like Bootstrap's 12 columns.
#
[tantek] -> #dev
pharalia joined the channel