#indieweb 2023-11-09

2023-11-09 UTC
bterry, geoffo, [nsmsn], [0x3b0b], rainystorm, asarandi and angelo_ joined the channel
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schmudde GWG: Thanks! I'm in Italy... so I usually won't be staying up for Pacific. :)
antranigv, [KevinMarks], geoffo, rainystorm, bterry, fury999io, [jacky], AramZS and [jeremycherfas] joined the channel
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[jeremycherfas] Where in Italy? I am in Rome.
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t​he_kovah Hello everyone! Nice to be here. Was lurking around for quite a while, but decided to participate more. I also hope to make it to one of the next meetups in Germany.
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sknebel hello!
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[jacky] https://misc.name/@scanlime/111381625546631869
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Loqi [preview] some naive networking greybeard once wrote that a good URL never changes, or somethingbut URLs do change because everything changes, and the expectations around their longevity and change are one place where people exert power and have power used ove...
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[jacky] As someone whose domain and URL has changed often for various reasons (some mainly because of the design of the system), this keeps banging around in my head
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[tantek] "naive networking greybeard" is not really a good way to refer to TimBL. If someone is going to make a serious argument like that they can at least look up the original statement rather than stating a strawman, and also avoid an unnecessary ad hominem. Both of those behaviors make me take that post (and poster) a lot less seriously.
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[jacky] That doesn't dismiss the point of the post here: "if people rely on a URL they're actually relying on a stream of labor" which is something that comes up a _lot_ when it comes to independent web projects (and _if_ TimBL made that point, then it's not helping his case either and might have shown a limited perspective of what networks could have been)
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[jacky] (i say if because I don't know)
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[Joe_Crawford] Tone aside, it's not wrong that the web is made of linkrot. It came up in last night's meeting. Longevity does require ongoing effort.
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[Joe_Crawford] I remember https://www.nngroup.com/articles/web-pages-must-live-forever/ and still believe it. I have pages I diligently maintain redirects for. I am fully aware I am exception.
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[Joe_Crawford] Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair, said the statue legs.
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[Joe_Crawford] The Internet Archive is a kind of band-aid, but an afterthought on the design of the web. We might have had a different design, but we have the web we have. It's possible a Xanadu might have been less linkrot prone, but it was not what won.
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[tantek] both points are valid. I agree [jacky] that it takes some amount of ongoing labor (even minimal to renew domains) to keep a URL working. And it's also true that there is *value* from keeping a URL working.
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[jacky] That I agree re: URL reliability! I'd be really upset if http://scgov.net stopped resolving
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[jacky] I think I should have scoped this to personal sites because a URL not resolving means disappearing for some if it's the only way you visit them (linksandcondor for example)
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[jacky] Or _why the lucky stiff
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[Joe_Crawford] Mark Pilgrim
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[jacky] Oh dang - I just looked that person up wow
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[snarfed] timeless internet mythology
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[snarfed] most good things take effort, true. we don't need to shame or bully people into maintaining web sites and URLs forever, but we can definitely still evangelize for why keeping them up and working is good
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[tantek] longevity << 1998-11-28 NNG: [https://www.nngroup.com/articles/web-pages-must-live-forever/ Web Pages Must Live Forever]
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Loqi ok, I added "1998-11-28 NNG: [https://www.nngroup.com/articles/web-pages-must-live-forever/ Web Pages Must Live Forever]" to the "See Also" section of /longevity https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=90463&oldid=90423
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[tantek] btw nice flex on that longevity article mention [Joe_Crawford] - from 1998 and it still works! self-consistent 🙂
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[jacky] Ha
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[jacky] True [snarfed]
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[jacky] Ha life would be so much easier with less bullies
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[Joe_Crawford] Was just reading this morning Mark Pilgrim mentioned in conversations at Nuremberg mentioning Mark Pilgrim - https://indieweb.org/2023/Nuremberg/linkrot - caring about that means I am among like-minded here.
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[snarfed] this is why I like that eg Automattic and Posthaven are at least trying out very-long-term-hosting services, specifically targeting longevity
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[jacky] Yeah that's been the on the end of trying to make it happen
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[jacky] I haven't seen much on the other: letting go for less critical things, or at least making it possible for information to be referred in a transient way
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[jacky] (also how is criticalness determined? is it because many people use it?)
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[snarfed] right to be forgotten, Google's auto delete for historical activity, all the twitter auto-delete services
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[tantek] ^ except IA kinda prevents that
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[jacky] I think I have to write this out more
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[snarfed] fediverse's anti-search culture
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[jacky] Yeah precisely re: IA
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[Joe_Crawford] url used to be http://www.useit.com/alertbox/981129.html for that [tantek] - it still works. And how do I know that, because I can look at my own post from 2003. https://artlung.com/blogosphere-part-2-musings-blogosphere/
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[snarfed] Google's is for non-public activity. and right to be forgotten just pulls it off of Google, true, but that's a big step
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[jacky] Or might finish this "Beyond the Web" thing I've been thinking on
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[snarfed] shades of gray. IA may mean something is still discoverable, but if it's harder, that can still count
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[tantek] still discoverable / allows for link repairing per https://indieweb.org/2023/Nuremberg/linkrot
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[snarfed] true!
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[tantek] irony related to this discussion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Infosuicide
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[tantek] context, mention in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Pilgrim#%22Disappearance%22_from_the_Internet
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[tantek] I dislike the term as well, for many of the reasons given on that Afd page
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[tantek] we /silo-quits, shall we stub a /web-quits page for listing sites/folks like Mark Pilgrim, _why, etc.?
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[tantek] per [jacky]'s points about costs of maintenance, and other reasons people may wish to remove/disconnect themselves or their identity from the web, it seems worth documenting as a real world behavior with examples
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[jacky] ↩️ Wow https://web.archive.org/web/20060417192641/http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/10/18/exit i think about this a lottttttt lol
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Loqi [preview] Every exit
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[Joe_Crawford] Perhaps an allusion to Bartleby the Scrivener. _"I would prefer not to."_ - though perhaps that would be unnecessarily dark. "Opt out" appeals to me.
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[tantek] [aaronpk] heads-up, looks like the use of Slack replies changed, and doesn't auto-push-to-top-of-chat like it used to
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[tantek] which means I wonder if Slack replies are still bridged to IRC etc.
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[aaronpk] Do you mean threads?
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[aaronpk] Also -> #indieweb-meta
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[KevinMarks] The other irony is that we set up diveintomark.link to mirror Mark Pilgrim's old site using Known, but it's not up either. I do still have his wordpress db in mysql though
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[KevinMarks] His work on documenting the web at Google was very good, but because they named it "doctype" it was ironically very hard to search for.
angelo_, [aciccarello], rvalue, tbbrown, gaussianblue, neceve, dmowitz and [chrisaldrich] joined the channel
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[chrisaldrich] Some interesting Tumblr news, particularly for those reliant on it. Perhaps a reason to begin switching to a more IndieWeb approach? https://mastodon.social/@docpop/111382477764238371
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Loqi [preview] [Doctor Popular] It looks like the rumors about #Tumblr are true. The majority of employees are being moved to other #Automattic properties, and Tumblr will be run by a skeleton crew. @photomatt is answering questions about it on Tumblr now https://www.tumblr.com/pho...
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gRegor Last night at HWC got me thinking about keeping a list /recommendation on my site for local restaurants and things to do, since we were recommending restaurants to capjamesg
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gRegor Probably a simple list of name and link to start, not necessarily reviews
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gRegor Anyone doing anything similar that's not on /recommendation yet?
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schmudde [jeremycherfas]: I'm in Turin. Not plans to head down to Rome soon... but would love to in 2024.
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[aciccarello] gRegor, that's a great idea. If I were to implement it, I'd probably write full reviews but could also be a list.
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[tantek] gRegor, I did those as reviews for a while, and then eventually realized I wanted venue pages on my own site first
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[tantek] per https://tantek.com/2023/114/t1/venues-reviews-personal-pages
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Loqi [preview] [Tantek Çelik] 🌱 I have long been a fan of @Foursquare.com and @Swarmapp.com, having created many venues, posted many tips, and (checks profile) over 45,000 checkins. I recently joined @happycow.net and before I start posting new vegan (friendly) venues or revie...
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gRegor Nice, I'll check that out
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gRegor I have venue pages and reviews would be nice, but I think I might get stalled on adding things initially. Maybe a list to start and add reviews later.
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[tantek] for me, POSSEing to Purplecow was a key use-case that I was/am trying to solve
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[KevinMarks] https://www.tumblr.com/photomatt/733546273183006720/youve-mentioned-in-the-past-that-adding-some?source=share
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[Al_Abut] ↩️ Hey, hi! I just joined and was searching for fellow Astro users when I came across this “Obsidian as a database” idea that I’ve been curious about for a while. Did you end up tinkering with this setup since Aug?
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gRegor o/ Hi [Al_Abut]! For people not on Slack, we usually don't use threads. Your reply will show up on chat.indieweb.org, but what you're replying to doesn't unfortunately.
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gRegor Can drop in timestamp links from there, though, like https://chat.indieweb.org/2023-08-31#t1693482252045400
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Loqi [preview] [[Murray]] Thanks drakonic, I'm not actually looking for an alternative (sorry if poorly worded), but because there are quite a few tools out there that can turn Markdown files into websites (stuff like Eleventy and Astro), and because Obsidian writes all notes...
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gRegor What is Obsidian
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Loqi Obsidian is a free, multi-platform application for writing and maintaining plain text notes (for longevity) as markdown files that provides a modest paid hosting service one can use with a personal-domain https://indieweb.org/Obsidian
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[Murray] [Al_Abut] I haven't played around with it at all, no, sorry, but it does intrigue me 😄